Do conductors/brakeman still use hand signals when performing switching moves in the yard or are those going the way of the caboose? Do most conductors/brakemen use the radio all the time now? Please let me know thank you.
hand signals are always important, radio's do fail or get interference.
Never ever lead a light locomotive around with a radio...
Yes, hand signals are used quite often, saves chatter on the radio.
23 17 46 11
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
CShaveRRCan I hear an "Amen!" to what Ed said! However, you can tell the older guys (and there aren't too many of us left!) by the grace with which they execute their hand signals. On the other hand, Ed, never ever lead a light locomotive around with a fusee!
And don't shine the LED lantern at the hogger. What's really annoying is when you try to give hand signals and the hogger is in la-la land... so you sit there waving your hands around like a mime on crack.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
Are all the hand signals defined in the book of rules these days? Hand signals were also called, "signs." There must have been hundreds of them over the years.
Standard hand signals, come ahead, back up and stop are covered in the GCOR, and most railroads have them in their timetables also...
Car counts are not covered, but the old heads will teach them to you, and location or carrier specific signals are taught the same way.
Most hand signals are pretty easy to understand no matter where or who you work for...
zugmannAnd don't shine the LED lantern at the hogger. What's really annoying is when you try to give hand signals and the hogger is in la-la land... so you sit there waving your hands around like a mime on crack.
That's why by rule you're supposed to tell the hogger to watch for hand signals...
zugmann CShaveRRCan I hear an "Amen!" to what Ed said! However, you can tell the older guys (and there aren't too many of us left!) by the grace with which they execute their hand signals. On the other hand, Ed, never ever lead a light locomotive around with a fusee! And don't shine the LED lantern at the hogger. What's really annoying is when you try to give hand signals and the hogger is in la-la land... so you sit there waving your hands around like a mime on crack. Now that's funny!
Now that's funny!
zugmann CShaveRR (snip) On the other hand, Ed, never ever lead a light locomotive around with a fusee! And don't shine the LED lantern at the hogger. (snip)
CShaveRR (snip) On the other hand, Ed, never ever lead a light locomotive around with a fusee!
(snip)
On the other hand, Ed, never ever lead a light locomotive around with a fusee!
And don't shine the LED lantern at the hogger. (snip)
Uh? Two statements provoke two questions... Why and Why?
Semper Vaporo
Pkgs.
enr2099 That's why by rule you're supposed to tell the hogger to watch for hand signals...
You don't have to with old head hoggers. But they worked with guys before everyone had radios.
Semper Vaporo Uh? Two statements provoke two questions... Why and Why?
The reason I wonder about hand signals being defined is that none of the references I have seen are consistent, especially the daylight signals. Many references show the nighttime and daytime signals being more or less identical except for the use of the lantern at night.
I am not sure what this is from, but on the Milwaukee Road, none of their hand signals were like these except for come ahead and back up:
http://www.etestmaker.com/35/htm/start%20-%20all.htm
All of the Milwaukee number signs were unique hand, arm, and finger movements that had no logical connection to the number, and their day and night signals were entirely different. C&NW used number signs that appeared as counts.
It is 2010 so why refere to hand signals from a railroad that has been gone for over 20 years ??????
here are current GCOR rules.
http://www.elpasohub.org/rulebook.htm
DutchrailnutIt is 2010 so why refere to hand signals from a railroad that has been gone for over 20 years ?????? here are current GCOR rules. http://www.elpasohub.org/rulebook.htm
Considering my road doesn't use either - they are both pretty much worthless (to me, at least).
Many roads had/have their own system, and some terminals even have their "own". But that's part of the whole qualifying thing.
So what happens if you are in the middle of a move and someone's radio takes a dive?
Norm
Dutchrailnut It is 2010 so why refere to hand signals from a railroad that has been gone for over 20 years ??????
My only point is that their used to be a lot of hand signals, and they were not self-explanatory. So I am surprised that hand signals would even be allowed today. However, I see that only three signals are defined, so I guess allowing their use is not too surprising. But the rule shows a lantern and does not specify whether these signals are the same day and night, so that is not explained. But since the rules allow employees to make up their own signals, I guess they could do anything for stop, proceed and backup as long as they agreed on the meaning.
On railroads where the nighttime signals differed from the daytime signals, if you used a lantern or a paddle in the daytime, you would still use the nighttime signals. Even in the pre-radio times, I never saw any formal rulebook definition of the signals except for the few basic ones.
Norm48327 So what happens if you are in the middle of a move and someone's radio takes a dive?
If they are in sight or out of sight?
By rule, the movement must stop within half the distance given in the last radio transmission.
enr2099 Norm48327 So what happens if you are in the middle of a move and someone's radio takes a dive? If they are in sight or out of sight? By rule, the movement must stop within half the distance given in the last radio transmission.
Hmmm... interesting rule. How does the Engineer know the "last" radio transmission? By my (stupid me) strict interpretation of that rule I would have to ALWAYS stop within half the distance given in ANY radio transmission since I really do not know if there has been any FAILED attempt to send any different radio transmissions since the last one I heard.
Semper Vaporo Hmmm... interesting rule. How does the Engineer know the "last" radio transmission? By my (stupid me) strict interpretation of that rule I would have to ALWAYS stop within half the distance given in ANY radio transmission since I really do not know if there has been any FAILED attempt to send any different radio transmissions since the last one I heard.
You are right on in your interpretation. When directing any type of move via radio, from other than the leading end, you must specify distance to be moved. And if the engineer travels half that distance without further transmission, then he stops. So if I tell an engineer to shove 20 cars, and he goes 10 without hearing from me, he stops.
And if there is any confusion regarding hand signals or any other communication - he stops the move.
Zug had your answer..
If I tell my engineer to come back 20 cars, and he does not hear from me by the time he has moved say, 7 or 8 cars, he better be slowing down prepared to stop at his guesstimate of 10...which is why when he gets to 7 or 8 cars he will hear me give him a new car count.
If you are using hand signals, and the person giving the signal disappears from the engineers sight, he is required by rule to stop.
That's why hand signals are still used.
In a busy yard with 2 or 3 jobs working, the radio can get real busy, so if you can, you use hand signals at every chance, to keep the chatter down and avoid confusion.
As for the last radio transmission the engineer hears...well, if the last one her got said 20 cars, and he hears nothing around the 8 cars shove, he stops...it is up to the person giving the car counts to make sure to continue/control the movement.
I did find the essay that I referenced in the following quote:
Deggesty: Paul_D_North_Jr: Anybody else remember the little photo essay - I think it was by Riley O'Connor - from the 1970's about him passing 'Seaboard' hand signals during one of the Southern Railway steam excursions ? I can' find it - yet - in the Index to Magazines (below). Maybe Johnny Degges will remember the issue ? Paul, I did not remember that it was a man helping on a SoRy excursion; my memory is of a man who hired out on the Georgia. Whichever, I had no idea that men on one road had a particular style of giving and passing signals. I only knew the rulebook rules, and none of the ATN&N men I "helped" ever said anything about my style. Perhaps they appreciated a non-rail who enjoyed their work. I also learned some non-rule signals, such as telling the engineer that the couplers were close together. [snip]
Paul_D_North_Jr: Anybody else remember the little photo essay - I think it was by Riley O'Connor - from the 1970's about him passing 'Seaboard' hand signals during one of the Southern Railway steam excursions ? I can' find it - yet - in the Index to Magazines (below). Maybe Johnny Degges will remember the issue ?
Anybody else remember the little photo essay - I think it was by Riley O'Connor - from the 1970's about him passing 'Seaboard' hand signals during one of the Southern Railway steam excursions ? I can' find it - yet - in the Index to Magazines (below). Maybe Johnny Degges will remember the issue ?
Paul_D_North_Jr: It's in the March 1984 issue of Trains, Vol. 44, No. 5, in the ''SELECTED RAILROAD READING ABOUT THE SOUTH SECTION'', and specifically the essay titled "Hand Signals" by R.R. O'Connor on page 28, cols. 1 and 2. He had a fair amount to say - including the oldtimers' view about radios, from back when he was a switchman for the Seaboard Air Line - ''That ain't real railroading.'' But this is the paragraph I had in mind: "I was to learn, with my then educated eye, that hand signals varied from railroad to railroad. The basics were the same, but each carrier had its own dialect. Many years later I was standing at Southern Railway's North Avenue coach yard in Atlanta. One of its steam specials was being made up. The first half of the consist was backing down onto the second half. I was standing between the crewman making the coupling and the locomotive. Out of habit and training I passed his signal along to the engineer. After the coupling was made, the special's conductor walked past me and asked, offhandedly, ''Who was up there passing Seaboard sIgnals?'' - R. R. O'Connor." Of course, this also leads to questions about the propriety, safety implications, and 'chain-of-command' responsibility of or for a non-employee generating any signals to the train's operating crew in that circumstance - other than a true need for an emergency stop, for example - but we'll leave that for another time.
It's in the March 1984 issue of Trains, Vol. 44, No. 5, in the ''SELECTED RAILROAD READING ABOUT THE SOUTH SECTION'', and specifically the essay titled "Hand Signals" by R.R. O'Connor on page 28, cols. 1 and 2. He had a fair amount to say - including the oldtimers' view about radios, from back when he was a switchman for the Seaboard Air Line - ''That ain't real railroading.'' But this is the paragraph I had in mind:
"I was to learn, with my then educated eye, that hand signals varied from railroad to railroad. The basics were the same, but each carrier had its own dialect. Many years later I was standing at Southern Railway's North Avenue coach yard in Atlanta. One of its steam specials was being made up. The first half of the consist was backing down onto the second half. I was standing between the crewman making the coupling and the locomotive. Out of habit and training I passed his signal along to the engineer. After the coupling was made, the special's conductor walked past me and asked, offhandedly, ''Who was up there passing Seaboard sIgnals?'' - R. R. O'Connor."
Of course, this also leads to questions about the propriety, safety implications, and 'chain-of-command' responsibility of or for a non-employee generating any signals to the train's operating crew in that circumstance - other than a true need for an emergency stop, for example - but we'll leave that for another time.
- Paul North
Radio signals have a couple of problems.
1) they interfere with other operations on the railroad.
2) some crew can't push the talk button then wait a bit for the squelch to clear and so we miss the first part of the transmission.
Hand signals are nice:
1) I can see the brakeman and I know he is in a safe location for the move.
2) The brakeman can react quickly if something changes and signal immediately rather than fumble around for the radio button.
In either case, the engineer has to stop if he has moved half the directed distance on the radio and not heard from the brakeman. (For those of you who thought about this rule, you cannot ever couple up. If he gives you 10' you stop at 5' then he gives you 5', you stop at 2.5' and so on. But we have to use common sense to realize that the last few feet is up to us.I can't wait to hear that rule argued in the court of law!). Or you stop if you lose sight of the hand (or lantern signals). In our case we discuss hand signals at the beginning of the shift to understand how and by whom they will be given and what a car sign ("push west 10 cars") means.
We often use the standard hand signals, and some days we try to stay off the radio entirely, except as necessary or required (reporting mainline switch positions, entering DCS territory, etc).
As a rule we declare on the air if we are changing from hand to radio or vice versa. It's not a problem if we go from hand to radio for the most part, but not letting the engineer know to watch for hand signals can definitely be a problem, as one might surmise.
As mentioned, hand signals are very handy if there are multiple movements in the same area.
Calling distances into a hitch varies - some flash ten fingers times the feet (in tens). I simply give smaller and smaller direction signals as appropriate. A number of us use a "clock face" for the last 10 to 15 feet - one hand straight up, the other starting at 9 o'clock and coming up to 12 as the pin drops.
There are no official hand signals for stretch, come in on the pin, or three step protection (red zone, in-between) that I know of, but we use interlocked hands pulling apart, fists bumping together, and three fingers held in the air, respectively. The engineer mimics our signal for three step to indicate that it's been applied. Some people use their other hand to bend the three fingers down to indicate they want three step cancelled. I just turn my hand downward with the three fingers extended, indicating "three step down."
We've been running with an F unit this spring and doing push moves, so we haven't had the opportunity to drill our newer trainmen in handsignals like we'd like to. Normally with a road switcher, a day's operation includes four run-arounds and lots of hand signals.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
petitnj snip (For those of you who thought about this rule, you cannot ever couple up. If he gives you 10' you stop at 5' then he gives you 5', you stop at 2.5' and so on. But we have to use common sense to realize that the last few feet is up to us.I can't wait to hear that rule argued in the court of law!).
snip
(For those of you who thought about this rule, you cannot ever couple up. If he gives you 10' you stop at 5' then he gives you 5', you stop at 2.5' and so on. But we have to use common sense to realize that the last few feet is up to us.I can't wait to hear that rule argued in the court of law!).
Ooo ooo ooo, I know the answer to that one...
It is all under the control of the carman... He gives you 10' and you stop at 5', then he gives you 5', you stop at 2.5' and then he says, "FIVE and you go half that and... "that'll do"!
Excellent solution; but how do you defend yourself in a lawsuit?
So the plaintiff's lawyer says: "Why do you deliberately order a movement that is too far? Do you give an unsafe order to bypass a poorly written rule?"
Now he has you for two violations. Just remember that common sense is no defense in liability cases. Just read the label on any tool!
My claim still stands. Given the rule as written, you can never couple two cars without violating something. In fact, if you follow the rule literally, you can't say "Five feet" you have to say "West Five feet". (Third violation; I recommend pleading the fifth at this point and hoping for leniency.)
GCOR: 2.13 In Place of Hand Signals When the radio is used instead of hand signals, information must include the direction and distance to be traveled. Movement must stop within half of the distance specified unless additional instructions are received.
When the radio is used instead of hand signals, information must include the direction and distance to be traveled.
Movement must stop within half of the distance specified unless additional instructions are received.
Coming in to a hitch using radio will usually go "come back one car to a hitch. The engineer understands that only coming back half a car is not enough - he's got to come back a full car. There will be further instructions as we go - half, twenty feet (we're talking passenger cars here), ten, five, four, three, two, one, stop, etc.
Even with that, we have engineers who will firmly plant the couplers together, and some who come in so soft that we've got to back out and try it again because the pin doesn't drop.
Another common radio move is "five (or whatever) cars to a stop," although that is usually paired at some point with a call that the track is clear for enough distance that reaching the stop point can be accomplished within half the distance available. Sometimes, though, the track isn't clear, most often because of an arbitrary restriction like a fouling point where the switch is against us.
"Drop 3, back 1/2 to a double, NS (loco #)." The guy will stand with his hands spread apart and show them coming together for coupling action.
petitnjExcellent solution; but how do you defend yourself in a lawsuit? So the plaintiff's lawyer says: "Why do you deliberately order a movement that is too far? Do you give an unsafe order to bypass a poorly written rule?" Now he has you for two violations. Just remember that common sense is no defense in liability cases. Just read the label on any tool! My claim still stands. Given the rule as written, you can never couple two cars without violating something. In fact, if you follow the rule literally, you can't say "Five feet" you have to say "West Five feet". (Third violation; I recommend pleading the fifth at this point and hoping for leniency.) GCOR: 2.13 In Place of Hand Signals When the radio is used instead of hand signals, information must include the direction and distance to be traveled. Movement must stop within half of the distance specified unless additional instructions are received.
Give us a little credit. Hand signals have been used since day 1 on the railroad. By the time we are under a car length, you are going slow enough that you are not going to cause great damage, even if you couple up to something. As far as direction, is that for original direction, or subsequent ones? I argue for the latter.
Any hand signal may be used provided it is understood by all members of the crew .. I still use my old Milwaukee road hand signals when I'm working with other ex-Milw employees.
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