....Would like to pass on my appreciation for Bill Metzger's fold out map in this month's mag. The Johnstown / Altoona area is an interest area of mine, being from Somerset Co. originally.
Like all the details of former ROW's and listings of points of interest and the fact it illustrates very well the route of the former PRR and it's secondary routes in the area.
Quentin
I also liked that map very much, and figured that you would too, modelcar/ Quentin, for just the reasons that you mention. It certainly was jam-packed with information from each of the several significant epochs in the evolution of that route - about the only aspects omitted were the Indian trails and the Colonial wagon roads ! What was really interesting for me was the 'before-and-after' comparisons of the track schematic diagrams at the bottom of the pages.
A couple of minor quibbles, though:
- I felt like I needed a magnifying glass to adequately read all of that very fine print.
- Likewise, it would have been better if printed at a larger scale - say, twice as large, so as to cover 6 pages instead of the 3 that it's now on - which would also better illustrate the differences between each of the various routes and alignments of the original Portage Railroad, the New Portage Railroad, the original PRR, and the PRR's various re-locations and branches, etc. Cutting off the top and bottom of each page - which would result from use of the larger scale - would be no great loss, as the central point / purpose of the map is the essentially almost-straight PRR/ PC/ CR/ NS main line from Altoona to Johnstown; the rest is just branches and background info, etc. For those who are interested, that kind of detail is well-presented in the Barnard Roberts & Co. book by Charles S. Roberts, PRR Triumph I: Altoona - Pitcairn - 1846-1996.
- It's nice to see something so close and local honored by being called 'America's most historic mountain railroad' or similar - however it was phrased for the label and introduction. Nevertheless, I wonder how the fans of the CP/ SP/ UP over the Sierra Nevada/ Donner Pass will feel about that, or maybe the fans of the original NP/ BN/ BNSF crossings of the Rockies and Cascades . . .
- Paul North.
Fantastic Map. Defiantly clarifies much information. Never new the RJ Corman Yard at Cresson was called Park Yard; the question now is, Why?
The only compliant I have is that it is difficult to figure out the interlocking configuration at CP MO, but that is more of a printing issue.
Paul_D_North_Jr I also liked that map very much, and figured that you would too, modelcar/ Quentin, for just the reasons that you mention. It certainly was jam-packed with information from each of the several significant epochs in the evolution of that route - about the only aspects omitted were the Indian trails and the Colonial wagon roads ! What was really interesting for me was the 'before-and-after' comparisons of the track schematic diagrams at the bottom of the pages. A couple of minor quibbles, though: - I felt like I needed a magnifying glass to adequately read all of that very fine print. - Likewise, it would have been better if printed at a larger scale - say, twice as large, so as to cover 6 pages instead of the 3 that it's now on - which would also better illustrate the differences between each of the various routes and alignments of the original Portage Railroad, the New Portage Railroad, the original PRR, and the PRR's various re-locations and branches, etc. Cutting off the top and bottom of each page - which would result from use of the larger scale - would be no great loss, as the central point / purpose of the map is the essentially almost-straight PRR/ PC/ CR/ NS main line from Altoona to Johnstown; the rest is just branches and background info, etc. For those who are interested, that kind of detail is well-presented in the Barnard Roberts & Co. book by Charles S. Roberts, PRR Triumph I: Altoona - Pitcairn - 1846-1996. - It's nice to see something so close and local honored by being called 'America's most historic mountain railroad' or similar - however it was phrased for the label and introduction. Nevertheless, I wonder how the fans of the CP/ SP/ UP over the Sierra Nevada/ Donner Pass will feel about that, or maybe the fans of the original NP/ BN/ BNSF crossings of the Rockies and Cascades . . . - Paul North.
Right on Paul....
Paul_D_North_JrIt's nice to see something so close and local honored by being called 'America's most historic mountain railroad' or similar - however it was phrased for the label and introduction. Nevertheless, I wonder how the fans of the CP/ SP/ UP over the Sierra Nevada/ Donner Pass will feel about that, or maybe the fans of the original NP/ BN/ BNSF crossings of the Rockies and Cascades . . .
I guess it comes down to, which was built first. If I understand correctly that was the completion of the then double-tracked mainline over the Alleghenies in 1854. It truly set the stage and was a model for future RR construction & engineering in America. Course I do not know much of the Canadian roads and there achievements.
BT CPSO 266Course I do not know much of the Canadian roads and there achievements.
I would hardly want to belittle all of the accomplishments already mentioned.
The CPR didn't get started to work on its' line through the mountains until 1881 or 2, I don't have my copy of Van Horne's Road by Omer Lavallie handy, and completed it in 1885. There is no doubt it benefited by the knowledge gained in mountain railroad construction by all of the other RR's mentioned above.
Just as CN predecessor Canadian Northern benefited by CP's construction, when it paralleled CP's mainline through the Fraser Canyon. My brother is the Civil Engineer in the family, but from several engineering articles I have read the improvements made between 1885 and just after 1900 when the CNoR line was being built are profound. They state the biggest difference is due to the replacement of nitro glycerin with TNT during that time period.
It is an evolutionary process.
Bruce
So shovel the coal, let this rattler roll.
"A Train is a Place Going Somewhere" CP Rail Public Timetable
"O. S. Irricana"
. . . __ . ______
I think the map is terrific, just as it is. I a 78 years old, have to use bifocal glases, but would not trade any loss of information for larger type. I think the layout is terrific, and the amout of information just right for any railfan visiting the area.
The interurban shown did go to downtown Johnstown, but it used streets (side of the road as well as paved track) of course shared with local streetcars, and was not an interurban to nowhere!
The Altoona and Logan Valley Railway, not shown on the map, was the Altoona streetcar system, and it had a line to Holidaysburg, which (the trolley line) is not shown on the map. Almost all was side-of-the-road or streetcar tracks, and very little was private right of way, but there was some.
I remember Johnstown Traction as having a Benns Creek streetcar line, with lots of private right of way. But the Benns Creek shown on the map seems much further from Johnstown than the length of that streetcar line. Did or does Pennsylvanina have two Benns Creeks?
daveklepper remember Johnstown Traction as having a Benns Creek streetcar line, with lots of private right of way. But the Benns Creek shown on the map seems much further from Johnstown than the length of that streetcar line. Did or does Pennsylvanina have two Benns Creeks?
Even more interesting to me Dave....{really closer to former home}. The mention of Benscreek on the map must indicate there are two locations. Really can't say for sure, and I have not looked it up currently.
But the Benscreek line coming out of Johnstown...then Ferndale....and on to Benns Creek was at some point extended to Windber. From Benscreek and beyond, as I remember.....coming out of B C, if one traveled along on {what used to be route 53}....the B C line was along the northeast side of the highway and from that point on {to Windber}, was pretty much out in the open country on it's ROW.
I have several small booklets on the Johnstown Traction Co. and it contains lots of pictures.....and if anyone is interested, Google JTC, and you will find a wealth of all kinds of photos of their streetcars and I believe some even of the interurban continuing on to Windber.
I'm trying to remember what did the Windber line in.....Again, haven't consulted my stuff here, just writing from off the top of my head....I believe the Windber line {out of Benscreek} had some major damage to it from the 1936 Johnstown flood and was not restored back to service.
I know the Benscreek line service ended at the outer end for years....at the location where route 53 and 219 {intersected}, coming in from the {south}, Jennerstown.
Don't know how familiar you are with what we're relating here Dave....but as the line reached the end of Ferndale...outbound, there was a very tight turn-around circle the street cars used to head back to downtown Johnstown, instead of proceeding out to the end of the Benscreek line.
As for the end of street car operation in the Johnstown area...I believe that was about June, 10 1960.
It would be interesting if a map would be prepared {in detail}, of the Johnstown area streetcar lines....They reached to all around the city and connecting Boroughs. Remember still, how much quieter the PCC cars were that were purchased right after WWII.....Some kind of insulation in the wheels didn't transfer all the noise. The sound they emitted, was more muted.
Edit:
There was a line extended from B C outbound.....that followed {roughly} to the east side of route 53.....and it climbed up out of the valley....{the rt. 53 climb was called "Tire Hill"}, and the {interurban / streetcar...??}, crossed from left to right route 53 at the top and continued on up the gentle valley and eventually terminated at the mining town of Jerome. I understand it was intended to be constructed on to Somerset, but that never did occur.
My info on the JTC indicates students rode from Jerome to some place in Johnstown to school for a period of time. That old ROW can still be identified at some locations to this day.
daveklepper [snip] I remember Johnstown Traction as having a Benns Creek streetcar line, with lots of private right of way. But the Benns Creek shown on the map seems much further from Johnstown than the length of that streetcar line. Did or does Pennsylvanina have two Benns Creeks?
After a little research, the answer is - somewhat surpisingly - apparently Yes ! Well almost, and not that far from each other.
The one on the PRR map in Trains is the village of "Ben's Creek", about 1 mile SE of Cassandra, 2-1/2 miles NE of Portage, and about 5 miles SW of Cresson, on a stream of the same name - the PRR named a branch line that served coal mines and its interlocking tower by the same name. It's at N 40.39748, W 78.62773, per the ACME Mapper 2.0 at http://mapper.acme.com/ - use the "Topo" view button.
The "Bens Creek" you fellas are referring to is on the SW side of Johnstown, just beyond Ferndale, also on a stream of the same name. It's at N 40.28208, W 78.93291, again per the ACME Mapper Topo view.
The 2 Ben's Creek streams are not the same one - they run in different directions, and are about 15 - 20 miles apart, and are each small enough that they cannot be connected through all of that mountainous terrain. The one near Cassandra runs generally NW to join the Little Conemaugh River there and is only about 2 miles long altogether; the one near Johnstown runs generally NE and looks to be about 10 miles or so long from its headwaters on the South Branch; there's also a North Branch that originates from a reservoir.
Hope this is informative.
Quentin/ modelcar, I believe that the "President's Conference Committee" trolley cars had a thin circular rubber insert in the wheel - somewhere between the tread and the center hub, which is what made them quiet - it suppressed or prevented the 'screeching' on curves.
Paul_D_North_Jr Quentin/ modelcar, I believe that the "President's Conference Committee" trolley cars had a thin circular rubber insert in the wheel - somewhere between the tread and the center hub, which is what made them quiet - it suppressed or prevented the 'screeching' on curves.
Paul....That is the info I've always come up with...Exactly that.
They sure were effective....I can still "hear" the muted sound of the wheels / trucks while making a 90 degree turn off of main st. right downtown Johnstown. No comparison to the older cars making the same turn. They really made a high pitch screeching noise making the same turn.
As an economy measure, years ago the Boston transit system, the MBTA, decided to substitute solid steel wheels on its PCC's, including the ten remaining in service, now air-conditioned, on the Red Line streetcar private right of way extension from Asmont, end of the third rail rapid transit, to Mattapan (formerly served by two other streetcar lines as well). They have rebuilt Ashmont station with tighter a tighter turnaround loop, and now neighbors are complaining about the screech. I wonder if they will go back to resilient wheels, in-use on almost all modern light rail cars as well as others' rehabbed PCC's, or install rail lubricators or both.
PCC's ran to Ferndale, and the Benns Creek line was a shuttle that used double-end lightweight cars (one is a regular performer at the Shore Line Torlley Museum, East Haven and Branford, Connecticut, ran it many timesm 357) that did not go downtown but connected with the Ferndale PCC cars. There may have been through service during weekday rush hours, which I did not experience. On weekends only one car was used.
Like Boston's Johnstown's PCC's were built by Pullman, not St. Louis. I remember them all carrying a Coca-Cola bottle-cap enlargement on the right front coner. Not very pretty, but i gues e3very dollar helps.
I carry a small pocket prayer-and-Psalm book which has type even smaller than the foldout map . I use it to conclude eye examinations to insure that the optomotrist will give me something that does the job, not just the eyechart. Maybe for those having to use a magnifying glass on the map, the map can be a solution by their bringing to any eye examination!
But I cannot find APRy Inclined plane No. 2. Where was it?
daveklepper [snip] I carry a small pocket prayer-and-Psalm book which has type even smaller than the foldout map . I use it to conclude eye examinations to insure that the optomotrist will give me something that does the job, not just the eyechart. Maybe for those having to use a magnifying glass on the map, the map can be a solution by their bringing to any eye examination! But I cannot find APRy Inclined plane No. 2. Where was it?
About 1/4 inch below "Jamestown", pretty much in the middle of the 2nd page - a long ways from Plane 1. (That 'green-on-green' type is hard to see, eh ?) See also page 44 of the "PRR - Triumph I" book that I referenced above - it has an almost full-page "Profile of the Old Allegheny Portage Railroad", as well as the extensive accompanying text, there and elsewhere in that volume.
Good suggestion about taking the prayer book and/ or this map for an eye exam. My optometrist also happens to be a Lionel collector . . . so he'll understand, I'm sure.
I enjoyed this map very much, but since we are listing possible errors, I did notice a couple more.
It list the PRR track arrangements as Track 1: EB freight, Track 2: EB passenger, Track 3: WB passenger, and Track 4: WB freight. It seems that can lead one on to believe that the signal arrangements were the same, when Tracks 1, 2, 3 were signaled for EB movement, but typically 1 & 2 were, and Track 2, 3, 4 were signaled for WE movements, but typically 3, 4 were.
Now, the NS track arrangement mentions that all three main tracks are signaled in both directions. I strongly question that, because most of the triple track is signaled for Track 1 as EB, Track 3 as WB and Track 2 as bi-directional. Although it is a rarity, that I have seen any kind of movement going on Tracks 1 or 3 in their typical "opposite" direction. It could have mentioned the regular track bound directions and that trains can move in all directions on the tracks after requesting permission from the dispatcher to travel in the "opposite" direction on a regularly reserved WB track 3 or EB track 1.
daveklepperPCC's ran to Ferndale, and the Benns Creek line was a shuttle that used double-end lightweight cars (one is a regular performer at the Shore Line Torlley Museum,
On the Ferndale line the PCC cars {outbound}, would have had to turn at the Ferndale "loop" as they were single end control.
On out the line from there, double end streetcars and interurban cars were needed because of no turning facilities. Various Co's were involved too....especially the line that was actually finished to Jerome, and I understand graded to Boswell, {I have looked for any evidence of that in the past, with no luck}, and perhaps to the location of the Lincoln Highway crossing a mile or two south of Boswell, {Ferolton} {Sp?}. I'm guessing it would have had to be near {maybe parallel to}, the former Boswell Branch of the B&O.
Lines also reached various directions north and northeast out of Johntown and various Co's. were involved in those lines too.....Lines to Nanyglo...Southfork....Evensville and so on....I believe a couple {Companies}, were connected end to end to reach Evensville.
A line was even proposed from Cumberland, Md., to Johnstown.
With the minuscule fares charged riding streetcars and interurbans, it is difficult to me to understand how enough revenue was ever generated to pay the bills of the systems we've been discussing. I realize inflation makes it difficult to "look back" and understand that....
And on my thought in an earlier post that the 1936 flood finished the rail service to Windber, my info indicates that is correct. Buses took over until a later date....Didn't pay pertictular attention just when, but believe it was until 1953.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegheny_Portage_Railroad
Yes paul....that site does have a very nice display of history of the many historic sites in that area.
Thanks for the directions to Plane No. 2. Right on the mark.
There sure seems to have been a lot of money spent and various engineering routes and even methods of getting public transportation up and over {and thru}, that section of Allegheny mountain range.....Almost a trial and error effort before they achieved the goal of decent speed to get across Pennsylvania in that area.
Which was finally the Horse Shoe Curve route {all rail}, opening in 1854.
Dave - you're welcome.
Quentin/ modelcar - Some of it was indeed "trial - or 'trail' ? - and error", but some was also selecting a route for the particular technology that was then in vogue. The canal system needed a different route than the railroad, and the portage-and-inclined-planes could operate on much steeper grades than any adhesion railroad, so that's why they had a different 'alignment'.
But even after the 1854 PRR opened, it continued to 'tweak' the details of the alignment, generally from Cresson to the west as far as Pitcairn. In the stretch from roughly Lilly to South Fork, I believe there were 2 or 3 line relocations. I'm not real familiar with the western portions of that, but I believe simlIar activities occurred - or were at least seriously considered, and even started if not completed. If you're interested in more about that, I highly recommend that you get hold of a copy of the PRR - Triumph I volume that I mentioned above - it has considerable maps, photos, and text about all of that. If there's not one available to you locally, perhaps an 'Inter-Library Loan' request would yield a copy to peruse for a couple of weeks without having to shell out $65 or so for a new one - although I suspect you'll then want to anyway.
Finally - anybody else note how many of the large reservoirs/ lakes in that area are noted on the Trains map as "Built by PRR" ? I don't have my copy in front of me right now, but I recall that it is something like 7 of the 9 shown - only 2 at the northwest side of the map are non-PRR.
ModelcarThere sure seems to have been a lot of money spent and various engineering routes and even methods of getting public transportation up and over {and thru}, that section of Allegheny mountain range.....Almost a trial and error effort before they achieved the goal of decent speed to get across Pennsylvania in that area. Which was finally the Horse Shoe Curve route {all rail}, opening in 1854.
The ironic thing was that if the Commonwealth had not constructed the New Portage Railroad the state would have broken even, if not close to it; on the Allegheny Portage Railroad. At least most of the New Portage right-of-way on the the western slope did not go to waste; what ever was not part of the mainline (eventually) were used as spurs. Course I guess the PRR, PC, & CR found use for the eastern half of the mountain.
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