Convicted One Thanks for the wealth of information. One last question from me, what is the typical track speed while installation is in progress?
Thanks for the wealth of information. One last question from me, what is the typical track speed while installation is in progress?
It's widely variable based upon a number of factors. Influenced primarily by depth required, number of ducts being installed, soil conditions and the presence of other obstacles. I would say a range of 0.1 to 1.0 mph, sometimes a little better. When it's going really good you'd have to walk fast to keep up. In difficult soils the plow may have to pre-rip the path a time or two before full depth can be achieved. If pre-ripping doesn't produce results we have to go to open cut or hammering and excavating the rock out.
Convicted One Do you ever have problems with one of the ducts snapping off under the pull, (under ground0 and having to go back, dig it up and splice it. If so does the whole operation stop while the fix is made, or does the trencher just stub the open end back into the machine and leave the line to be repaired later?
Do you ever have problems with one of the ducts snapping off under the pull, (under ground0 and having to go back, dig it up and splice it. If so does the whole operation stop while the fix is made, or does the trencher just stub the open end back into the machine and leave the line to be repaired later?
The plow is usually followed by at least 2 high rail excavators for cleaning up the ballast, installing handholes, digging the duct down in areas where we had to pull the plow up, such as culverts, or to repair snapped ducts. These locations are usually marked with a wood stake or paint on the ground or on the rail so the plow can keep moving. Track time is usually hard to get, you don't want to stop the plow if you can avoid it.
Some of our old plows were modified Jordan Spreaders. The newer versions were built from the ground up, they have better control and much more robust hydraulic systems.
Hope the photo's help to explain the process.
I'm impressed to see that the ducts are inserted into the trenches as they are cut. But it makes sense, I was wondering what kept the trench from closing before the liner was laid, bu seeing how you do it all at once explains a lot.
The resemblance of the railplow to a Jordan spreader is quite remarkable.
There's an article on page B-5 of the "Marketplace" section of today's Wall Street Journal about the resurgence of fiber optic companies - how their values have increased, many recent acquisitions, and the demand for their services, especially for the 'last mile' between the networks and users in cities, and from the land-based networks to cell phone towers for mobile phone users, etc. It mentioned that there's generally still plenty of capacity between cities, so it might be a while before there's a lot more FOL laid on railroad R-O-W's for long distances - or maybe not so long. But the R-O-W for short distances in those urban areas might be more valuable now . . .
Now, the fiber-optic network business is enjoying a resurgence, particularly for metro fiber, the high-capacity lines that connect a city's office buildings, data centers and cellular towers to the Internet. . . .
While there is a still an abundance of the long-haul fiber that connects cities to one another, there is an increasing demand to replace slower copper cables with faster fiber in much of the "last mile" of the Internet—the direct connections to users.
Read more: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204467204576048110913769584.html#ixzz19X1yEq7v
- Paul North.
These photos are the ones offered by Michels Communications earlier in this thread. The photos have been resized to the maximum (550 pixels) allowed by this forum. Most do not have individual captions, so I have posted the descriptive "filename" under each photo.
-railplow pre-rip.jpg
-railplow rocky area.jpg
-railplow 8 duct NJ.jpg
-railplow 8 duct.jpg
-Rail plow photo - 8-way duct.jpg
-Rail plow photo - Gondola with colors.jpg
-Rail plow - old design.jpg
-bore pullback.jpg The bore pullback photo shows the drill stem, which crossed under the converging track at a depth of 10 feet. The bore stem is attached to a swivel, reamer/hole opener, and the HDPE casing pipe which will line the hole.
-bridge approach.jpg The bridge approach shows the casing pipe being trenched toward the bridge attachment.
-Delta plow 6 duct.jpg The Delta Plow photo shows a conventional crawler tractor that is used in shorter sections where the rail plow isn’t practical.
-Typical Handholes.jpg Typical handholes photo shows the boxes that are used as assist point for installing the fiber optic cable, and for storing maintenance coils of cable.
Edit: It appears I misunderstood the 550 pixel limit, and may have been able to post pix that would initially display 550 pixels, but display larger if then clicked. Next time!
From Anb740:[ FTT] "...I had the privilege watching of the Atlanta-Macon installation. Qwest/NS T-Cubed subsidiary teamed up around 2001 to lay this cable from Atlanta to Jacksonville via the old secondary CofG mainline to Macon and the former GS&F to Jacksonville. I was told that the initial installation cost was at least $36 million. This didn't include the annual lease of the right of way by Qwest. Unfortunately, neither company bothered to look at whether doing any of this was actually legal! (with full time legal departments at both companies, you'd think someone would have caught on!..."
Just a Note on the above.. I believe that this was the installation/ event that triggered this Thread at the beginning with questions about FOC lines along railroad ROW's.
I lived in Georgia from 1998 to 2001. It was the installation by QUEST on the NS ROW that triggered my curiosity, and consequent post here. It is amazing the amount of information that can be found in this Forum!
The point that Anb740 and RR Plow made about the administrative difficulties (land titles, and ownership issues) brings into perspective how difficult in these modern times of the 21st Century how historical problems can bedevil projects done to advance modern technology. Railway Man and Mud Chicken especially has opened my eyes to issues of tracking ownership through Public Records and their historical trail of peculiarities of former ownership vs. current ownership and land occupancy (D,M&G RR. nee: D,M& A RR Originally a Narrow Gauge through this area and then a MoPac RR branch [to UPRR] )
Michels Communications I've got some photo's but don't have a suitable URL to post them to. Would be happy to email them for someone else to post.
I've got some photo's but don't have a suitable URL to post them to. Would be happy to email them for someone else to post.
You can email photos to buxton.graham @ gmail.com and I will post them. (Make sure to remove the spaces bracketing the "@".)
anb740 I'll try to shed a little more light on the legal ramifications of using Railroad Rights of Way for things other than actual railroad usage (i.e., laying fiber optic cables) Since I live in Georgia, I had the privilege watching of the Atlanta-Macon installation.
I'll try to shed a little more light on the legal ramifications of using Railroad Rights of Way for things other than actual railroad usage (i.e., laying fiber optic cables) Since I live in Georgia, I had the privilege watching of the Atlanta-Macon installation.
ANB740: There is another questionable Georgia installation that I have wondered. There is a FOC between Columbus and Albany Ga along the SAL ROW that the trackage has been abandoned. There have been some minor disputes about back hoe disruptions but your post briings up some interesting items. Also some buildings have been built over the old ROW?
I'll try to shed a little more light on the legal ramifications of using Railroad Rights of Way for things other than actual railroad usage (i.e., laying fiber optic cables) Since I live in Georgia, I had the privilege watching of the Atlanta-Macon installation. Qwest/NS T-Cubed subsidiary teamed up around 2001 to lay this cable from Atlanta to Jacksonville via the old secondary CofG mainline to Macon and the former GS&F to Jacksonville. I was told that the initial installation cost was at least $36 million. This didn't include the annual lease of the right of way by Qwest. Unfortunately, neither company bothered to look at whether doing any of this was actually legal! (with full time legal departments at both companies, you'd think someone would have caught on!)
Much of today's railroad mainlines were built via government issued easements from the original property owners. A lot of these easements stipulated that the right of way could be used ONLY for railroad transportation and nothing else. It also couldn't be subleased to another entity for non-railroad usage. Should the railroad be abandoned, the right of way reverts back to the current property owner unless the government takes it via eminent domain. (i.e., bike trails) Fiber optic cable does not fall under this category. One of the landowners here in Georgia had an aptitude for the law, and figured this out. A multi-million dollar, class action lawsuit soon followed claiming the railroad broke the freight/passenger transport only clause. Each and every property owner with ROW frontage was awarded money based on how much feet/acreage they had adjacent to the ROW. I never did hear the final amount of the lawsuit, but I'm sure it was in the millions! And the VERY costly cable they laid? To my knowledge, it has never been used. If anyone has more (or better) info on this, I'm all ears! It was both fascinating and hilarious to watch this all play out. I know at least two people who actually received money from this lawsuit, and both got a kick out getting paid money for someone else's stupidity!
Joe H. (Milepost S256.0; NS Griffin District)
Pictures: http://anb740.rrpicturearchives.net
Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/anb740
WOW! So many questions and so little time. I started out installing fiber optic networks on RR ROW as a contractor (Henkels & McCoy) using the first RR cable plow. Later I was the ROW owner for the installation of fiber optic networks when I worked for Amtrak on the NEC. After that I installed fiber optic networks on RR ROW as the "client" when I was with Qwest. So I've experienced it from all sides of the table.
Backhoe fade is what we call cable damage by dig-ups. I belonged to a national organization of RR companies and the telecom industry that actively worked with the state "One-Call" systems to reduce the number of backhoe fade incidents. The NRTPC is still in existence.
I worked for CSX Fiber Networks as a consultant and negotiated the agreements for telecom companies to use the CSX ROW. The deals varied greatly from location to location and fees were largely dependent on the ROI for the fiber route. The largest deal I ever worked on netted $200,000 per mile one-time-fee + yearly fees for 20 years.
The thing that always caused me heartburn was that the big money went straight to the coffers of the railroad companies and NONE of it ever trickled down to the MOW and B&B people who had to support our efforts during the installation of the fiber optic network. There we were demanding a track-out-of-servcie so that we could run our RR cable plow and the railroaders were trying to haul freight or passengers over the track to make money for the company. And then there was the issue of getting flagmen support for our operations. That was another nightmare, but many railroaders got a lot of OT...
JLY
One branch line near here - the 7-mile former Reading's Colebrookdale branch - has an AT&T FOL running along it from Pottstown to Boyertown, where's there's a fair-sized bank HQ and some other businesses. If I recall correctly from about 10 years ago, the recurring annual payment for those lease rights from AT&T is in the range of $14,000 per year, and was the most significant single component of the valuation of the line when its sale by the County and purchase by its then sole-user was being contemplated.
Fiber-optic lines are unfortunately routinely severed from causes other than derailments, and in those circumstances do not rise to the level of affecting national security. An IT guy I know once said "The backhoe is the natural enemy of the Internet", and a few years ago a morning spent with a then-AT&T "Long Lines" locating technician yielded some interesting and bizarre stories about that occurs. So some disruptions ought to be tolerable - it's a network, after all, and there ought to be alternate routes available.
To compel a relocation of an FOL at no expense - or on the other side, to obtain reimbursement for same - is largely a matter of bargaining power and ability between the railroad and the FOL owner. There is no compelling natural law that prohibits the railroad from requiring the FOL to be relocated when and where the railroad needs that done - although that might well affect the amount of the payment for the lease or easement. Here in Pennsylvania that's a fundamental, well-understood, and non-waivable condition to installing a utility line of any kind (except CATV) in a public street or road - whether state or local - and it is exercised frequently in connection with road widenings and intersection improvements, which are the highway equivalents to adding tracks and upgrading interlockings. And you know, I don't see that this Commonwealth or its residents are notably underserved or overcharged by said utilities because of that - it's a cost of doing business, and is part of the bargain for the otherwise nominal cost - permit fees, etc. - of using the public R-O-W.
diningcar's comments about the quality of the title to the railroad R-O-W affecting the legal right to install a FOL is 'spot on'. In some documents I've seen, the railroad makes no representations or warranty of title - it's essentially a 'Quit-Claim', and the FOL company takes it 'as-is' and so has to be prepared to negotiate and fight the issue with anyone who raises it. Of course, those companies usually also have the power of private eminent domain/ condemnation, so the dispute with the owner of the underlying land rarely lasts too long, and is usually more about the size of the check for the 'taking' damages than about the power of the FOL to condemn whatever rights it needs.
[quote user="Railway Man"]
Norm48327: Sharing the ROW with public utilities is pretty common where I live. I assume it is mutually beneficial to both the railroad and the utility companies.
Sharing the ROW with public utilities is pretty common where I live. I assume it is mutually beneficial to both the railroad and the utility companies.
Very much depends what the utility is, and where it is, and what year it is. In the time when people were thinking there wasn't much future in the railroad business, the meager one-time check offered by a fiber company seemed like free money. Fiber isn't too painful to move out of the way of a rail expansion project, but transmission lines become very expensive to move as their size grows larger, and pipelines apparently are made from solid gold. On a branch line it may not matter much, but right-of-way width in a high-traffic main line corridor is very valuable. There are many who wish that our predecessors had never entertained anything in the ROW other than the railway.
RWM
RWM has opened the most germane aspect of this discussion: ROW needed by the railroad for its operations and growth, and also, the title the railroad has to its property.
The high traffic lines are growing in importance and the HSR advocates want to utilize it even more. Look at the BNSF Transcon where triple track was installed on Cajon Pass and the difficulty they have had at Abo Canyon. Also, imagine what happen when a derailment occurs, especially at high speed. Do you want a gas or petroleum line burried within fifty feet of a high densitiy, high speed main track? And are you willing to have a vital fiber optic line severed and not available to be repaired for several days?
The title that railroads have is very complex. They almost always acquired it in small segments and by varied means. Some of those acquisitions stipulate, either in the document itself, by statute or by litigated case law, that the railroad has title only for the operation of its transportation business. So does the railroad have the right to sell occupancy for utility lines which parallel the tracks? Crossing the railroad from one side to the other is not a conflict but paralleling may entitle the owner who conveyed title to the railroad to participation in the revenue derived.
I'm still trying to find a cite-able source, but the Times-Herald Record reported about ten years ago about an abandoned railroad in either Sullivan, Orange, or Rockland county in New York that kept the embargoed rail bed intact so they could claim the railway as being "in service" and could collect fees on any and all easements that crossed the property. They didn't have cables on the ROW, but they did charge those whose cables *crossed* the ROW.
I'm pretty sure it was Sullivan County but I've not been successful to identify the heritage railroad or the current owner as of yet. It's a fascinating story, to me, at least.
It must get interesting when you want to lay a new cable along a ROW that already has several cables buried. I'm thinking you must have to keep records of distance from the rail of each cable, and that there must be a convention of minimum spacing between cables. Are detectors (sonar or the like) used to locate the existing cables?
_____________
"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
Norm48327 Sharing the ROW with public utilities is pretty common where I live. I assume it is mutually beneficial to both the railroad and the utility companies.
RRPlow . We began the first ever railroad cable plow installation of a fiber optic network in March of 1984. It began in Harrisburg, PA and traversed 749 miles to Chicago on the Conrail ROW. The client was AT&T.
. We began the first ever railroad cable plow installation of a fiber optic network in March of 1984. It began in Harrisburg, PA and traversed 749 miles to Chicago on the Conrail ROW. The client was AT&T.
Interesting, since it is exactly that line I've been thinking of as this thread has unfolded. Spotting it frequently as it surfaces between bridge abutments.
RRPlow If you are interested, I can tell you everything you would care to know about the RR Cable Plow. I was involved with the machines for over ten years. JLY
If you are interested, I can tell you everything you would care to know about the RR Cable Plow. I was involved with the machines for over ten years.
Yeah, that would be cool. Do you have any 'work in progress' photos, showing the open trench, duct and junctionbox installation, and the special considerations made when boring under an intersecting line? How fast does the plow typically move along during routine installation?
Also, what do you do if you are tunneling along in soft dirt, then suddenly encounter a really large stone or unexpected underground obstruction. Do you go around it, or do to muscle your way through?
And, is there much 'hand work" involved, cleaning out the upstream sides of abutments for instance?
The railroad cable plow was invented by Marty Helmus at Henkels & McCoy in the early 70s as a fast method of installing C&S cables along the Reading RR in Philadelphia. I worked for Marty on the development of the second generation railroad cable plow. It was patented. We began the first ever railroad cable plow installation of a fiber optic network in March of 1984. It began in Harrisburg, PA and traversed 749 miles to Chicago on the Conrail ROW. The client was AT&T.
Michels (no "a") jumped our patent a year later and built their own railroad cable plow. We (H&M) competed head to head with Michels in the coming years for contracts to install fiber optic networks on RR ROW for all of the they telecom companies
In 1985 I negotiated a contract with the telecom in Alaska and we took a railroad cable plow up there to install fiber optics. We did a couple of projects over the next few year in Alaska.
I also negotiated contracts with Canadian National that ended in two plows being used for the trans-Candian fiber optic network. I also took a plow to Mexico and installed fiber optics down there.
I was the construction director for Qwest east of the Mississippi. We used many railroad cable plows on that project. By then there were 8 firms with railroad cable plows.
JLYjr.
Gentlemen,
Some very interesting information in this thread. A few years back I had the privilege of photographing replacement of a small bridge. Included in the process was temporary placement of underground fiber optic cables to above ground poles. I assume that once the bridge was finished the FO cables were once again returned to their original position.
Thanks Jerrod, for sharing something I had no previous knowledge of.
Norm
CliqueofOne A few photos (1985 − 1992) of fibre ploughs owned by the Canadian National Railways. http://homepage.mac.com/cliqueofone/PhotoAlbum35.html http://homepage.mac.com/cliqueofone/PhotoAlbum36.html http://gallery.me.com/cliqueofone#100519&bgcolor=black&view=grid http://gallery.me.com/cliqueofone#100542&bgcolor=black&view=grid
A few photos (1985 − 1992) of fibre ploughs owned by the Canadian National Railways.
http://homepage.mac.com/cliqueofone/PhotoAlbum35.html
http://homepage.mac.com/cliqueofone/PhotoAlbum36.html
http://gallery.me.com/cliqueofone#100519&bgcolor=black&view=grid
http://gallery.me.com/cliqueofone#100542&bgcolor=black&view=grid
Copied to activate links
Cliqueofone; Thanks for sharing the albums! Lots of interesting photos.
I was wondering about the CN locomotive #96 in the photos 0287, and 0286. Seems a shame that it is allowed to sit in what looks like a state of neglect, although there seems to be a chainlink fence around it. Do you know what its story is?
Also, that looks like it was quite a trip by motocycle in 1992 up into Alaska.
I have some photos of the Qwest plow when it was in Dalton, GA in the early 2000's. I'll go through the archive discs and try to post tomorrow.
Very nice unit!!
Jerrold:
Thanks, for the information!
We've been in the utility construction business since 1959. Built our first railplow in 1987. The locomotives were acquired in the mid to late 90's (I think they may have come from SP but don't recall for sure) and sold about 2005. For most of the installations we have completed, the RR furnishes the locomotive and it's crew. The railplows themselves are always operated by our personnel. It's very important to have an experienced crew with this type of installation.
Qwest's plows were originally built for SP Construction (a division of SP Telecom) which went on to purchase Qwest as referenced by others in previous posts. In 2004 Michels purchased 28 cars from Qwest, including four railplows, one of which has been retired due to it's age (UMLER). We currently have 5 railplows in our fleet. The link that Paul North provided showing the railplow in Horicon (MPCX-5003) was originally an SP or Qwest railplow (SPCX-5003). These are extremely heavy duty units. One of the units we have (MPCX-5002) is built on a locomotive chassis. Very durable in tough soil conditions.
Jerrod:
Thanks for jumping in here. This is pretty interesting stuff.
My recollection of the cable aying train went back some years, and I was wondering how long has Michaels Corp been doing this type of installation?
And I'm really curious about the train itself. Do you still operate the locomotives, and have you any ideas aas to their pedigrees?
Were the two ever part of the Qwest Operation?
Did Michael's purchase them to use specifically on your operation from a railroad, or someone else?
I'd guess the technology is pretty much an industry standard, although one company might have a really good idea, and their build might have propriatery aspects, but overall resemble industry practices. I'd guess in the latter aspect if utilizing a host railroad some familiarity with the gear woulf be a real help while operating.
Again, Thanks for your information!
Your assumptions are correct. When the plow comes to an intersecting track, road crossing, intersecting signal wires, etc the plow is pulled out of the ground. Most of these areas are then directional bored. In the case of a track crossing, these are bored at a depth of 10' below the tracks and sleeved with an HDPE or steel casing large enough to accomodate the smaller ducts. The "tie-ins" are completed using duct couplers.
Junction boxes (handholes) are typically placed below grade at intervals of 2,500 to 5,000 feet. These serve as assist points for the cable installation, slack storage boxes, and storage for splice points. The fiber optic cable reels are typically 15,000 to 20,000 feet in length.
Bridge attachments are commonly used. These are typically a galvanized steel "A" bracket that is welded, bolted, or mechanically connected to the bridge. Bullet resistant fiberglass or steel pipe is placed in those brackets and the ducts pulled through those pipes. If sufficient clearance is available, this method is sometimes used in tunnels as well.
Derailments do occasionally affect these lines. I haven't seen any studies on the frequency of outages on RR right of way (row) vs public row but would have to guess that damages are far more frequent on public row based solely on greater exposure within public row. We assisted a carrier on a derailment outage several years ago. The area had gotten 14" of rain in a 24 hour period. A large culvert under the tracks had gotten clogged with debris, causing the water to seep around the culvert, eventually the whole culvert washed out, leaving the tracks suspended with nothing under them. A single locomotive with about 6 cars came through at about 1:00 am, all of which derailed. The engine took out the fiber optic line, which was buried about 4 feet deep. A temporary cable was strung out on the ground and spliced in to bypass the damaged section. A crew was dispatched later to bury a new line in that section with a conventional crawler tractor.
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