Progress Rail buying EMD

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

oltmannd

[snip] Just a thought, but I wonder if anybody's messing around with the idea of replacing the turbo with a turbo/electric compound/hybrid, where the turbo would drive a generator that would charge batteries that would power an electrically driven blower. The excess at high power output could be stored or used for propulsion. The deficit a the low notches could be drawn from the batteries (the batteries could/would also be charged by the main propulsion generator, too).

You could tailor the air box supply exactly to the conditions, particularly transients, reduce emissions and improve performance. And, you can design the turbo to extract as much as possible from the exhaust stream instead of having it designed to match the blower needs in notch 8.

OK - so what you're suggesting would be to mechanically 'de-couple' the turbine from the blower, and instead insert an electric motor to drive the blower that's controlled independently of - and with much more finesse/ sophistication than - the turbine's shaft speed, which is driven by the exhaust gas stream voume and velocity, etc.  And, instead of adding the blower drive motor as yet another 'parasite' load on the main generator and drive system, continue to use the exhaust gases to power the blower via another generator that's driven by the turbine.

That much I can see (I hope).  But rather than adding another battery system, why not just use the locomotive's main starting batteries instead as the 'buffer' between the variations in the exhaust turbine's output and the blower's power input needs ?  I think the main batteries would have plenty enough capacity to carry the blower for quite a while when the exhaust output is low, but a higher blower output is needed - just a supervisory circuit of some kind to ensure that they don't get drained too far would be needed, I would think.

- Paul North. 

[edbenton]

Right the First Thing Rodger Penske did when he Bought Detroit Diesel from GM was GET RID OF THE 2 Stoke Designs.  He replaced them with the DD60 Series and they were a 4 Stroke and watched the REST OF THE INDUSTRY CATCH UP.  They introduced EFI Overhead Cams and Electronic Controls to the Industry.  Schiender that had been a Cummins stronghold Dumped Cummins faster than an Tornado going thru a Trailer park.  They went with Detroit and nevr looked back. 

[GP40-2]

Oh, and one other thing. CAT IS going to eventually dump the 710 motor for a 4 cycle for new North American locomotives. Not immediately, but it is going to happen. I told some of you guys 3 months before GM announced that it was dumping EMD that it was already a done deal. I'm telling you now that it is a done deal that CAT will replace the 710 with a 4 cycle in the future.

[GP40-2]

YoHo1975

Where do these assertions that 2 cycle diesels will be harder to pass emissions come from?

I can only assume that they come from common people's knowledge of consumer gas powered 2 cycle apps. Those have emissions issues, because they are lubricated by the fuel/oil mixture and the oil introduces additional emissions.

But that isn't the way Industrial Diesel 2 stroke engines work. They use a wet sump just like a 4 stroke would.

I'm not a mechanical or chemical engineer and I don't know all that much about Diesel engines than what a brief looks throughout schooling and the internet has taught me, but I can't see any reason why a 2 stroke diesel would present any sort of problems as compared to a 4 stroke design.

You might not be a mechanical engineer, but I am. The unavoidable fact is that EMD's 2 cycle will NEVER have the complete combustion that a 4 cycle will have. Period. You can mitigate this up to a point, but after a certain threshold, you are not going to make the regulations. Poster edbenton knows EXACTLY what he is talking about.

[oltmannd]

creepycrank

EMD has been working with Argonne Labs to develop both thier G and H engines in the form of single cylinder engines (I sure would like to see that). The EPA probably goes to Argonne to learn how to measure things. Argonne Labs says they been testing both engines for T3 and T4.

I remember when the notion of the 710 and strict emission controls looked like a dead end. Glad to hear it's not.

Just a thought, but I wonder if anybody's messing around with the idea of replacing the turbo with a turbo/electric compound/hybrid, where the turbo would drive a generator that would charge batteries that would power an electrically driven blower. The excess at high power output could be stored or used for propulsion. The deficit a the low notches could be drawn from the batteries (the batteries could/would also be charged by the main propulsion generator, too).

You could tailor the air box supply exactly to the conditions, particularly transients, reduce emissions and improve performance. And, you can design the turbo to extract as much as possible from the exhaust stream instead of having it designed to match the blower needs in notch 8.

[oltmannd]

creepycrank

More people only have the imagination to understand the otto or diesel cycle expressed in 4 stroke form- suck, squeeze, POP, and ptui. A lot of engineers with advanced degrees can't get past that either, never the less two strokes do exists and are in many areas getting another look as far as the possibility of a lighter power plant with better emission seems possible. EMD has a oil pan that collects the oil that passes through the engine bears and "P" pipes and turbo, etc.. A scavenging pump picks it up , pumps it through the filter then the lube oil cooler and finally to the strainer box where the pressure pump/piston cooling pumps pick it up and pump it to the engine. That's 3 oil pumps, 2 in tandem. There have been some EMD's with dry sump lubrication such as some of those locomotive conversions for marine use. Stewart and Stevenson had some weird adaptations and EMD built one for Norske Veritas (?) to tryout an idea for last ditch operation for a sinking drill rig engine. Ed, your going to have to get a grip on yourself. Clearly all your info is from looking over someones shoulder or hearsay from questionable sources. I remember as a kid watching propeller airliners flying overhead at night where the blue exhaust flame was clearly visible. EMD 's exhaust valve opens about the same time that all the energy is used up and the same with 4 stroke diesels what energy is left that can be extracted run's the turbo. I did see a 6-71 as you say lay a sheen of oil on a small yard vessel in a shipyard in Louisiana but it only proves that even a totally worn 6-71 can start and run even with broken piston rings.

The emission/oil consumption rap against the EMD engine comes from having to have a ring system that provides enough oil control but can navigate the port area of the liner. Since the surface area is less, the ring pressure is higher there. EMD's solution, in part was the laser hardened liner, where the port area was hardened so that higher oil control ring pressure could be maintained.

[beaulieu]

carnej1

On the other hand I have read that the very popular Detroit Diesel 6-71 two stroke diesel found in many trucks and other equipment was based on the EMD 567?

I doubt that the 6-71 and the 567 share much in common beyond both being 2-stroke cycle diesels. What I can believe is that the 6-71 and the Winton 6-201 share more in common. Both were designed under the supervision of Charles F. Kettering. The 6-201 was the original power for the Pioneer Zephyr.  The 8-cyl. version of this engine powered a few early EMC switchers and E-units. EMD absorbed Winton initially, but when the 567 was developed to replace the 201 series engines for railroad use, GM created Cleveland Diesel to produce and market the 201 series and engines developed from it, for Marine and stationary power uses. In large numbers the successor 201A and 278 series Cleveland Diesels powered hundreds of US and Allied Navies minesweepers and some submarines. Eventually EMD designed diesels displaced the Cleveland designs and the division was wound up with its personnel assigned to either Detroit Diesel or EMD.

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

carnej1

[snip] On the other hand I have read that the very popular Detroit Diesel 6-71 two stroke diesel found in many trucks and other equipment was based on the EMD 567?

Maybe in concept, but I'm not sure about the details - they're not very comparable - such as each cylinder's displacement/ volume/ size, power output, also per cubic inch, max. RPM and range, duty cycle = % at max. power, and how often it changes, ratio of cylinder circumference to cylinder volume for the rings and lubricating oil film, non-use of anti-freeze, operating temps., turbo-charged or normally aspirated, etc. I don't know much about any of these, so a comparison of the specs for each might be instructive . . . .

- Paul North.

[carnej1]

YoHo1975

I don't know that Ed has been "looking over someone's shoulder," but it sure does seem that knowledge of Truck sized Diesel engines does not directly apply to Heavy equipment Diesels.

 

Most heavy equipment uses truck sized engines but when you get into power plants for things like locomotives, giant mining dump trucks, tug boat engines I see your point...

On the other hand I have read that the very popular Detroit Diesel 6-71 two stroke diesel found in many trucks and other equipment was based on the EMD 567?

[YoHo1975]

I don't know that Ed has been "looking over someone's shoulder," but it sure does seem that knowledge of Truck sized Diesel engines does not directly apply to Heavy equipment Diesels.

[creepycrank]

More people only have the imagination to understand the otto or diesel cycle expressed in 4 stroke form- suck, squeeze, POP, and ptui. A lot of engineers with advanced degrees can't get past that either, never the less two strokes do exists and are in many areas getting another look as far as the possibility of a lighter power plant with better emission seems possible. EMD has a oil pan that collects the oil that passes through the engine bears and "P" pipes and turbo, etc.. A scavenging pump picks it up , pumps it through the filter then the lube oil cooler and finally to the strainer box where the pressure pump/piston cooling pumps pick it up and pump it to the engine. That's 3 oil pumps, 2 in tandem. There have been some EMD's with dry sump lubrication such as some of those locomotive conversions for marine use. Stewart and Stevenson had some weird adaptations and EMD built one for Norske Veritas (?) to tryout an idea for last ditch operation for a sinking drill rig engine. Ed, your going to have to get a grip on yourself. Clearly all your info is from looking over someones shoulder or hearsay from questionable sources. I remember as a kid watching propeller airliners flying overhead at night where the blue exhaust flame was clearly visible. EMD 's exhaust valve opens about the same time that all the energy is used up and the same with 4 stroke diesels what energy is left that can be extracted run's the turbo. I did see a 6-71 as you say lay a sheen of oil on a small yard vessel in a shipyard in Louisiana but it only proves that even a totally worn 6-71 can start and run even with broken piston rings.

[edbenton]

Even though it is a Wet Sump design you still have to open the Exhaust valves BEFORE the Combustion Process is DONE.  Therefore you are dumping unburned fuel out the stack.  Also with a 2 Cycle HD diesel you have to worry about Fuel washing down the walls and scoring a Clyinder liner.  In over design a 710 is very close to the old 71 and 92 series of Detroit Diesels.  We used to say when they were out there in OTR fields check the fuel and fill the oil they drank oil and also leaked more than the BP oil well in the gulf does.  It was nothing for a 671 to use 2 gallons in 400 miles. 

[YoHo1975]

Where do these assertions that 2 cycle diesels will be harder to pass emissions come from?

I can only assume that they come from common people's knowledge of consumer gas powered 2 cycle apps. Those have emissions issues, because they are lubricated by the fuel/oil mixture and the oil introduces additional emissions.

But that isn't the way Industrial Diesel 2 stroke engines work. They use a wet sump just like a 4 stroke would.

I'm not a mechanical or chemical engineer and I don't know all that much about Diesel engines than what a brief looks throughout schooling and the internet has taught me, but I can't see any reason why a 2 stroke diesel would present any sort of problems as compared to a 4 stroke design.

[YoHo1975]

creepycrank

. In general EMD's pricing is for expensive engines and cheap parts. CAT practically gives the engine's away then makes it up on parts pricing and your going to need a lot of parts.

This is exactly the way EMD and GE compete in the Locomotive market.

The SD70 is expensive up front, but cheaper to maintain. The Dash 9/AC4400/GEVO is cheaper up front, but more expensive to maintain.

Of course, GE's ability to build units faster has also influenced their overtaking EMD. It will be interesting to see, as Dash 9s go off lease, just how many enter rebuild programs similar to the various SD40/50/60 projects currently going on around the industry. And of course, GE based shortlines and regionals, while more common than they were in the past are still rare birds.

See short Trains article in july issue.

It is cheap to maintain an old EMD.

[creepycrank]

Corporate Culture- Of course EMD was not part of GM corporate culture after the Kettering era. The would be from time to time GM exec's with MBA's from Harvard show up to show EMD how it was done-totally ignorant of the capital goods business. This was also reflected in the auto business UAW contracts. They did some embarrassing things and go on to careers at other GM divisions. At least EMD and CAT are in the same sort of business. The part I know is the marine and generator business where they compete head to head. In general EMD's pricing is for expensive engines and cheap parts. CAT practically gives the engine's away then makes it up on parts pricing and your going to need a lot of parts. In the marine field EMD's biggest competitor was rebuild locomotive take out EMD engines such as DEFCO of Houston. About 9 years ago McAllister built a new z drive tug with 12-645-EB engines, something that EMD stopped building 20 years before. They also built another similar tug with CAT engines for comparison purposes. In the marine market they can be excused for being bargain hunters. To get back to locomotives, Progress Rails business consists mostly of rebuilding and wreck repairs of mostly EMD locomotive. (Does anybody rebuild GE locomotives?) So they know EMD's. They also build CAT powered gensets and experiment with CAT powered rebuilt locomotives for the bargain hunter's. EMD needs to get its production cost lower and with the present owner's they got a good start. I don't think EMD engineering can learn anything from CAT on designing a engine. I hope the Progress Rail acts as a buffer and that CAT leaves alone the marketing and service contracts with distributor's. I would think for a measly $820 million Stewart & Stevenson could have bought EMD.

[carnej1]

Victrola1

Red Team Vs. Green Team.

Not knowing the corporate culture of either player in this one, how have past Cat acquisitions played out? 

 

Penn Central of course is a lousy comparison to about 90% of all mergers..

Caterpillar has acquired a number of companies over the years. Some they have merged into their operations and some they have operated as wholly owned subsidiaries. Recent examples include Perkins engine (small diesel engines), Solar Gas turbines (industrial power generation NOT solar power systems) and, of course, Progress Rail, which itself has a bunch of subsidiaries that do things like manufacture track components, MOW machines, Genset switchers and other RR products and services..

 Those companies appear to be thriving under the Cat umbrella so I do not understand folks who are complaining that Cat will wreck EMD..

In order to be competitive with GE, EMD needed to be part of a larger organization who can offer better financing, R&D money, ect..Cat can and will do that

[garyla]

If the figures I saw were correct, Electro-Motive probably wasn't sitting still after being spun off by the General in 2005. 

According to some report, GM sold EMD for only $200 million (?), but it fetched $820 million five years later.  NICE appreciation!

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

YoHo1975

For reference http://www.transportation.anl.gov/engines/locomotive_engines.html

Interesting link - just 'activated' it - thanks. Argonne National Laboratory's article "Locomotive Engine Research Program Drives Down Train Emissions". One excerpt, the 3rd 'bullet' point under "What Makes This Research Unique": "Locomotive diesel engines have unique emissions reduction needs and provide the opportunity to explore new technologies that don’t apply well to truck or automotive engines." - Paul North.

[YoHo1975]

For reference http://www.transportation.anl.gov/engines/locomotive_engines.html

[creepycrank]

EMD has been working with Argonne Labs to develop both thier G and H engines in the form of single cylinder engines (I sure would like to see that). The EPA probably goes to Argonne to learn how to measure things. Argonne Labs says they been testing both engines for T3 and T4. There are a lot of factors that have to be controlled. An Example is a test done at Southwest Research on an Ingram Barge engine stock T nothing except for the Firwin aftertreatment catalyst and a revised injector. It made T2 but at the cost of the loss of 7% fuel efficiency. Two things I noticed is that it still had the stock 2 pass after cooler and stock compression of 16:1. Changing to a split system with a 4 pass after cooler might get most of that back and probably ditch the after treatment. In the same local is the Ricardo Engineering consultant and with CAT's money it might be interesting to investigate Ricardo's 2/4 stroke idea. http://www.ricardo.com/en-gb/Engineering-Consulting/Automotive-Expertise/Gasoline-eng With this you can start as a four stroke, switch over as you pick up load. Either you can reduce engine weight this way or take it out as more power.

[YoHo1975]

Are these rumors somewhere on the web where they can be read?

I recall reading several years ago that the 710G Well surpassed the T2 requirements and approached T3 as is, so I'm not so surprised they meet T3 with little work.

[n012944]

edbenton

There is no way in HADES EMD was going to make Tier 4 without Urea and DPF Aftertreatment. 

 

Well reports coming out of EMD tell a different story.  I would think they might know a tad bit more than you on that subject.

[YoHo1975]

So the EMD 710 is emphatically NOT the only 2 Cycle Diesel in Heavy Application in 2010 and FURTHERMORE, Caterpillar catalogs the other major product.

Perhaps, we've been focusing on the Wrong product line. Since MaK and EMD are both big in the Marine Diesel market and are Both creators of 2 Cycle product, I would expect that that is where the majority of technology sharing would occur. Does anyone have a sense about how Cat has done with knowledge transfers between the independent operating groups?

[Victrola1]

Red Team Vs. Green Team.

Not knowing the corporate culture of either player in this one, how have past Cat acquisitions played out? 

 

[beaulieu]

YoHo1975

Are the Marine operations MaK sells into not Heavy?

Yes, the largest Cat-MaK VM series is rated at 21,000+ hp.

CP is using 40-2s? I wonder what these will look like? Also, Will they be SD59-2s? with spartan cab?

All we can do is guess right now.

Why is CP using the 12 cylinder SD32/59 to replace the GP9s? It's going to require more rework of the radiator section.

The SD32ECOs will replace GP38AC/GP38-2s on local freights, allowing the GP38s to move to switching service. If these work out CP has received a bid on some GP22ECOs also. The first batch is part of the C$70 million capital expansion announced a few weeks ago. The whole batch will be delivered and paid for over 3-4 years.

EMD has an installed base of 33,000 2-cycle engined units. (this was not knew info by the way, it was in the press release I believe, or in a previous EMD press release) They are getting orders for the engine right this very minute. Plus they have a huge parts market. They will not kill the 710 out of hand.

 

[YoHo1975]

Not to get off topic, but I can't find an independent source confirming the Canadian Pacific put in an order for SD32ECO/SD59-2s

Anyone have a source?

[YoHo1975]

Are the Marine operations MaK sells into not Heavy?

CP is using 40-2s? I wonder what these will look like? Also, Will they be SD59-2s? with spartan cab?

Why is CP using the 12 cylinder SD32/59 to replace the GP9s? It's going to require more rework of the radiator section.

EMD has an installed base of 33,000 2-cycle engined units. (this was not knew info by the way, it was in the press release I believe, or in a previous EMD press release) They are getting orders for the engine right this very minute. Plus they have a huge parts market. They will not kill the 710 out of hand.

[edbenton]

Few years ago Cat had a Great engine called the 3406E model for OTR trucking.  People loved it myself include thing would pull like a Elephant yet got decent MPG.  Well Cat was forced to Upgrade it via the EPA but people refused to get rid of the 3406E they had.  So what did Cat do they this year Stopped making any replacement Cranks and Cams for them.  All it will take is doing the Same thing for the 710's or for them no more Power Assmbleys.  No way is anyone going to let GE be the only supplier to the Locomotive market and CAT knows this.  They would not have spent 820 million if they thought GE would take over 100% of the New Loco Market with their plans. 

 

How long can you scavage parts for a Locomotive before they can not run.  10 years.  Max maybe.  The 251 Series for ALCO's is still being made by FM and parts can be found for them.  The only 2 stroke design left in any heavy service is the EMD line the time has come to retire them. 

[beaulieu]

FYI - Cat is not 4-cycle only. The line of Marine diesels that they acquired when they bought the diesel operations of MaK of Germany are all 2 stroke-cycle engines, and they are in the current catalog. Like the Marine operations which are based in Hamburg, Germany, I expect the Cat and EMD names will be linked, and once the deal closes I would expect the Cat logo to appear on the EMD website. But I would expect EMD to function as a separate entity under the Cat umbrella, just like the Marine operations.

 

Canadian Pacific has placed an order with EMD for 50 SD32ECO conversions using retired CP SD40-2s for cores. These will indirectly begin to replace CP's fleet of GP9 rebuilds. 

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

Small article on this in today's June 2, 2010 Wall Street Journal - 'Marketplace' section, Page B1 - "Caterpillar, GE in Iron-Horse Race", by Robert Guy Matthews.  The only significant new info or analysis that I saw in it was that EMD has the largest existing customer base - 33,000 locomotives installed worldwide, as compared to GE's 15,000. 

Here's the best I could do for the links to it - may be only the 1st few lines - if so, you'll have to do a Google Advanced News Search to get a link to the entire text of the article.

- Paul North. 

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704875604575280263343200050.html?

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704875604575280263343200050.html?mod=WSJ_hpp_LEFTWhatsNewsCollection#articleTabs%3Darticle 

See also the WSJ's "UPDATE: Caterpillar Unit To Buy Locomotive Maker For $820M", dated June 1, 2010, by Bob Tita, at either -

 http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20100601-708117.html?mod=WSJ_Deals_LEFTLatestHeadlines 

or  http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20100601-708117.html?