Gentlemen: (at least I think I am a minority of one) fleeting thought: Do you suppose this is a very well-done hoax? Can anyone really verify that this is even being pushed around on a drawing board by credible people?
She who has no signature! cinscocom-tmw
Mookie Gentlemen: (at least I think I am a minority of one) fleeting thought: Do you suppose this is a very well-done hoax? Can anyone really verify that this is even being pushed around on a drawing board by credible people?
It sure sounds like it is being pushed by people who are serious about it. Or at least they are serious about spending other people's money on it. Nothing shakes the public money tree like a call for more safety.
Steve RaneyA front-of-train air bag system shows promise in increasing rail safety. When inflated, the air bag system might be 15 feet long and 7 feet high. The system will be able to safely handle a collision between a pedestrian and a 60 mph locomotive, grabbing and holding the pedestrian until the locomotive comes to a stop.
This airbag application calls for a permanently inflated airbag. With a vehicle, the just-in-time inflation is triggered by impact of the vehicle against some obstacle, and then the airbag inflates to protect the occupant from colliding with the vehicle interior. It has to be just-in-time inflation because there is no room for a permanently inflated airbag in the vehicle driver compartment.
With a train versus pedestrian contact, there is no easy way to trigger the just-in-time inflation, and there is no reason for that approach because there is plenty of room for a permanently inflated airbag ahead of the locomotive.
The proposal calling for a permanently inflated airbag says it will be fifteen feet long. As the airbag deflects upon collision with a pedestrian, it acts like a spring. That is, the resistance of the airbag deflection increases the further it is deflected or compressed. During that phase of compression, the pedestrian must be accelerated from zero to sixty mph.
During this phase of airbag contact and compression, the airbag will compress some amount before the pedestrian begins to move with the contact force. Let’s just say that is five feet. And then the pedestrian must be fully accelerated before reaching the front of the locomotive at the end of the airbag compression. Let’s say that the pedestrian is fully accelerated by the time he or she is five feet from the locomotive.
So the pedestrian does not begin to move until he or she is five feet into the airbag, and then must be completely up to speed by the time he or she is ten feet into the airbag. So the pedestrian must accelerate from zero-to-sixty mph within five feet. Even if protected from hard object impact, can a human body survive accelerating from zero to sixty within five feet?
I think it is going to require a longer airbag; probably something in the neighborhood of 75-100 feet long. Think what that will do for railroad photography.
This concept fits right into the pedestrian rights advocacy that seeks to empower pedestrians over motor vehicles. It is a very European concept. It includes advice such as encouraging your kids to play in the street as a means of claiming space and traffic calming. What really amazes me is the fact that the FRA is involved with this nonsense. Although it is not really hard to understand when you realize the game that is being played in the big picture.
MookieGentlemen: (at least I think I am a minority of one) fleeting thought: Do you suppose this is a very well-done hoax? Can anyone really verify that this is even being pushed around on a drawing board by credible people?
Could be a hoax. OTOH, it may be being pushed by someone who stands to gain monetarily. Wouldn't be the first time it's happened, would it?
Norm
"Nothing shakes the public money tree like a call for more safety. "
And, as long as the sheep are afraid to be accountable for their own actions it will continue.
Not every sheep dog is credible. Some are coyotes. Some sheep will be 'suckered in', and the coyotes will feast on their ignorance.
The inventor envisions a very low cost per vehicle, but experts are skeptical. A Federal Railway Administration staffer guessed at an “acceptable budget” of $10,000 per locomotive for an air bag safety system. "Guessed at an acceptable budget" doesn't relly equate to anything meaningful.
For a 60 mph locomotive colliding with a 200 lb pedestrian, a calculation of a 7.5 foot air bag is given below by David Maymudes. This is a "promising" mathematical conclusion - the abstract collision physics are feasible. The question now becomes, is there a feasible, practical, low-cost design? Design issues include: a) preventing the air bag from hinging upwards, b) selecting an air bag design/fabric that won’t pop when pressed to the train tracks, c) meeting the requirements of commuter rail operators, d) preventing pedestrians from getting their ankles caught, e) how to fund, develop, and test a prototype, etc. "Promising mathematical equations"? That's pretty much nothing-isn't it?
Inventor: Peter D............ Did I mention, that I invented the mini-van back in 1980? I'd probably be a millionare now, if there had been an internet back then to promote my idea.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Yes, in looking at this more, I think Mookie is right. The material seems to try to create the illusion of there being a lot of public interest and government sponsorship underway. But I cannot come to any conclusions as to who might be seriously involved with this. I would not conclude that the FRA is testing such an airbag concept just because the linked documents make that claim. The original poster seems to be at least a participant in the pitch-making of the proposal described in the linked documents.
It would be nice if the original poster would come back and talk a little about the engineering and execution of this locomotive airbag.
Bucyrus,
I would think those who have a product to sell are the ones pushing this.
Sorry, but I'm always a bit skeptical of Greeks bearing gifts that are guaranteed to protect me.
Oh, BTW, Air bags in airplanes have become a reality. Not for airliners, but for light singles and twins a seatbelt manufacturer has developed them and won FAA approval. Proof being in the pudding, I'm waiting for a report on their effectiveness. I've been in aviation for over thirty years and still waiting for something to protect people from impact with a mountain.
A very prominent fiscal conservative / small government fan / libertarian who wants the government to mandate a $10,000 Rube Goldberg airbag on the front of locomotives.
Isn't that an oxymoron?
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
Phoebe VetA very prominent fiscal conservative / small government fan / libertarian who wants the government to mandate a $10,000 Rube Goldberg airbag on the front of locomotives. Isn't that an oxymoron?
Jumbo shrimp? LOL.
Mr Raney - I only watch railroads, not work for them. But history has shown that the railroads want to work to keep people off the tracks, not help them out when they tresspass or in some way get on the tracks.
I don't see them embracing any idea that is strictly an updated "cowcatcher" idea. Maybe a better approach would be to provide some kind of people protection that doesn't include using the railroad equipment.
Personally I don't see that working either, since you can't really stop someone that is determined to get on those tracks with a train. But there are a lot of great minds out there that just might come up with a solution.
Maybe just better education about the hazards of being around railroads. We taught/teach our school-age children about the hazards of electrical lines, strange dogs and strangers in general.
Just my musings....
An image pops in my mind of the nose of an airbag-equipped locomotive growing like Pinocchio's, not saving one life. Would rather see money put into grade crossing elimination. I think that saves lives, carnage, and money.
Steve RaneyA big airbag in front of every locomotive could ruin railfan pictures. To be cost-effective, the safety solution will be implemented in urban, not scenic, areas. For California railfans, I don’t envision the safety solution ruining photos at Donner, Feather River, Secret Town, or Tehachapi loop. I don’t foresee the safety system interacting with many deer.
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
All right boys and girls...
I want every one of you who can spell troll to hold up your hand....
Ok, all together now...Futuremodal....oh, wait, I mean Tro.....
23 17 46 11
Don't think deer will be a problem??? What about horses, cows, goats, racoons, badgers, and all sorts of additional animals that exist, not only in the scenic countryside, but well within the city limits, including DOWNTOWN. Railroad rights of way are often surrounded by trees and land that is undeveloped which is the "last stand" for many types of wild life... even inside of incorporated areas. But even in totally in the concrete jungle, especially at night when many animals go out to forage, there are lots of large animals present.
Another problem... How far is this air bag going to extend out in front of the engine? Will it be compacted against the front, to be deployed upon some sort of signal derived from... well... what? Radar/Sonar attempting to detect an object in front of the locomotive? Will it deploy if the system "sees" a boxcar on an adjacent track at a curve?
Or will it be permanently deployed as a big comfy cushion sticking out in front? If so, how far out if front? What will support the structure of this big comfy cushion? Might need a bogey under it to support the bag... what will protect the hapless pedestrian from that bogey? How will it be steered around curves? It just cannot stick out an additional 5-, 10-, or 15-ft (or more) as any amount of extension will foul adjacent tracks in curves.
As for ruining photo-ops... I see just about as many countryside scenic shots as the ones in definite urban areas... not everybody is captivated by the scenary behind the train... most just want a photo of the locomotive. Not that I think photo-ops should trump safety appliances, but trains with airbags in the city 99% of the time are on their way to the scenic countryside.
I suppose it it stuck out permanently, it could be painted to look like a BigBoy (substitute yer favourite loco name) to satisfy the FRN photogs.
How about, instead of the big comfy pillow on the front, we put a set of boxing gloves on those comic "X" rack extensors like in the old silent movies and cartoons so the engineer and other engine crew can pull a lever in the cab to just punch errant pedestrians out of the way. Sock-o! Probably have to add a third (and maybe fourth) crew member to all trains just to run the mechanism... sure would be good for the employment situation. "What is your job?" "Oh, I work for the railroad." "Oh? You an engineer?" "No, I run the People Puncher."
As for "conservative... libertarian"... I am slow to post this because I had to regain my composure after reading that.
Semper Vaporo
Pkgs.
This has to be one of the dumbest ideas to come down the pike since the proposal for a carousel switching and classification facility.
While I am not against safety devices that actually work, I would have to see some solid evidence that an air bag or any other cushion device on a train engine could reduce the impact force enough to prevent death or injury. If I am not mistaken, part of the reason auto air bags work is that they start to collapse moments after deployment and thus absorb the forces at play. If the locomotive air bags were designed that way, it might be wise to keep in mind that "that train is goin' to keep on a comin'.
Suppose also that the person wishing to end it all is standing between the rails and the bag, which has to set high enough to clear the tops of the rails, just knocks him down between the rails? I am not going to paint a picture of that result.
Beside that, these guys are barking up the wrong money tree. According to the article here: http://legalcatch.wordpress.com/2008/03/18/pedestrian-accident-statistics/ about 5,000 pedestrians are killed and another 64,000 are injured by motor vehicles each year. "Nicely equiped with optional front end air bag."
"We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics
Of course, I think everyone here is always glad to see new members to see what they bring and add to the forum but it's interesting that you show up and post what some of us consider a completely off-the-wall proposal about air bags. I want to jab here and ask who you will be and what will you post next but that wouldn't be proper, so I won't do that.
Steve, if you are Steve Raney, cool haircut.
http://www.advancedtransit.org/doc.aspx?id=2
Mike
....This subject has brought lots of comments, but really, how can this proposal be serious....
Quentin
I would not consider the original poster, Steve Raney, to be a troll. Nor would I classify his proposal as a hoax. What makes it seem hoax-like is the seeming outlandishness of the idea of putting airbags on locomotives to protect pedestrians.
But I am certain that Mr. Raney is serious about the idea. Moreover, I am certain that this proposal will get the serious consideration of those who can develop it and get it to work, as well as those who can get the public to pay for it. It won’t make any difference what the railroads think of the proposal, because the implementation will not be their decision.
This is no more outlandish than the FRA proposal for remote coupling and uncoupling of freight cars, and they are seriously spending public funds to develop that idea. I would not be surprised if that idea was not originated by the FRA, but rather, by some small non-profit research think-tank similar to Mr. Raney’s organization. And I expect that public money will eventually be spent on research and development of the locomotive airbag concept.
Here is a link to one of Mr. Raney’s organizations, which advocates building “livable communities”: http://www.railvolution.com/
Livable communities is a concept / agenda to achieve so-called “sustainability” by requiring people to live in high-density housing in a compact community core, and either walking, bicycling, or taking transit to get around. Rail transit is the centerpiece of “livable communities.”
What the livable community agenda opposes is the use of private automobiles, suburbs, and freeways, all three of which it considers to be arch enemies of “sustainability.” Moreover, the proponents of this vision do not want to merely offer this lifestyle as an option for people. On the contrary, they are working with all levels of government to make it a requirement for people.
Livable communities (sometimes called “smart growth”) is a political agenda that stands in opposition to the freedom and liberty of being able to decide where you want to live, how you want to travel, and what kind of house you want to live in.
In case you think that these ideas are kook fringe that will not come to fruition, consider the fact that no less than the FRA themselves are calling for the development of HSR and LRT, and they state that the purpose is to help bring about livable communities, and stop global warming.
Instead of airbags let's put a bunch of sharp steel two foot long spikes on the lower front of locomotives and publicize the fact. Maybe that will convince bozos that the front of an engine is an unhealthy place to come into contact with.
Jack
Jack_S Instead of airbags let's put a bunch of sharp steel two foot long spikes on the lower front of locomotives and publicize the fact. Maybe that will convince bozos that the front of an engine is an unhealthy place to come into contact with. Jack
There is an EMU train running on a Japanese railroad that actually looks like that - except that the long steel projections are round-ended and only about a foot long. The car's entire front end is rounded, appears to be made of something like battleship armor and rather resembles Darth Vader's helmet.
I suspect the purpose of the spikes is to keep motor vehicles hit at grade crossings from rising up and coming in the motorman's window. No report on how well that idea works.
Chuck
Jack_SInstead of airbags let's put a bunch of sharp steel two foot long spikes on the lower front of locomotives and publicize the fact.
Perhaps such an idea would work in cars as well, putting the spikes in the center of the steering wheel. A person might reconsider how important that text message is if he knows that if he smacks in to something he will get impaled.
Or forget the airbags; lets just develop a deflector shield (ala Star Trek). This could be used in all vehicles, including trains, trucks, airplanes, autos, etc. Driving would then become like real-world bumper-cars. Of course, this would entail people starting to buy the heaviest car possible, because physics dictates that the more massive an object is the more momentum it has. A truck could just cruise down the highway at speed bouncing cars out of the way like so many billiard balls. Just imagine how far and fast a loaded coal train could propel a pedestrian, possible causing him to achieve escape velocity.
I remember reading in a psychology publication (I cannot remember which one, so I could quote it) about a study of how the current safety devices in autos actually cause some drivers to drive less safe thinking that the safety of the car will make any accident more survivable. Supposedly this is the reason that fatalities (deaths per miles driven) have not dropped significantly since the installation of mandated safety devices.
BTW, I was kidding about spikes in the steering wheel and the defector shield, as they make about as much sense as the train airbag idea. However, I was not kidding about the safety study.
Please, not picking a fight here, but answer this...
How many times have you been on a locomotive that has struck something at track speed?
All I can say is that air bags on the front would make zero difference to what you hit...when that much weight and mass smacks into anything, what ever is hit will be crushed.
Any air bag, even one designed to grab and hold a person will still be traveling at the same speed as the locomotive, so unless it can pick the person up and set them on the walkway...besides, the person hit would go from 2 or 3 miles per hour walking speed to 45, 70 or 79mph in a fraction of a second, so unless the air bag was hundreds of feet long the sheer velocity change would kill them...sorta like the falling off a building quip..."it aint the fall that kills you, it's the sudden stop" in reverse.
Air bags were developed to prevent what is called "cardiac tamponade", a fancy way of saying you smack your chest into the steering column when you have a accident.
That by itself is not fatal, but...your internal organs still travel a few inches at the initial velocity even after your body is stopped by the steering column...your heart keeps moving forward, hard enough to rip/tear the aorta.
All air bags do is provide a fraction of a second of controlled deceleration, enough to allow your internal organs to slow down at about the same speed as the rest of your body.
The process doesn't work all that swift in reverse, although with enough engineering, a G suit and a few billion dollars of NASA acceleration technology, it is doable.
Mr. Raney has posted here before, on the subject you mentioned, the dense crowded ultra city/urban pocket city concept where every thing is with in walking or bicycling distance, and any commuting is done by a mass transit system.
Every one works at home or next door, and some how Mom and Pop markets compete with Wall-Mart.
Arthur C Clark stories along with a few other science fiction writers come to mind, as does a very socialist type of government
Logan's Run and Soilent Green and Spielberg's "THX" come to mind, as does the new version of The Day the Earth Stood Still...big brother looking out for us because we are too stupid to look out for ourselves.
I saw a program on Discovery, about a super city/building concept, where entire communities are born, grow up, live, work and die all in one massive self contained self sustaining building.
The concept included entire floors devoted to green lands, where trees, grass, and all that are laid out as parks, with the foliage helping the air system, an "ocean" floor, living quarters floor, business/ manufacturing floors, you get the picture, a self contained "managed" world inside a single building.
They never mentioned what they were going to do with the bodies of those that die in this wonderland...I guess they recycle?
Uh, no thanks.
Having lived in a community where the personal auto is rare, heavily taxed and typically small and uncomfortable, every one living cheek and jowl with one another, and currently living in one of the most densely populated cities in the US, and also having lived out where the deer wander into your back yard, you can't even begin to count the stars at night and the air smells like, well, air, I can state that my personal choice includes the deer, not my neighbor, looking in the window.
From your post, I gathered you don't really like the concept of being forced to live in those sustainable communities, you prefer the right to choose for yourself where you live, based on your economic limitations and personal likes/dislikes.
I whole heartedly agree.
And yup, the kooks are gaining power...interesting times we live in.
Ed,
You certainly do understand my point about not wanting to be forced to live sustainably in livable communities. Incidentally, another very broad term I have heard for that type of development philosophy is, “New Urbanism.”
Now, with the airbag idea, I did not intend to convey the impression that I thought it was a good idea, but it may have sounded that way. I only intended to credit Mr. Raney’s approach to getting these types of ideas instituted and funded through public policy, and to sound a warning of this type of creeping regulation. When you consider what a well-agitated public sector can do, I was cautioning against dismissing the idea of something as outlandish as locomotive airbags.
I agree with you that the physics of the concept don’t work. If Mr. Raney would show us an idea that is convincing, I would certainly like to see it, and give it a fair appraisal. Otherwise, I see the airbag idea as just another facet of New Urbanism. It seems to make it an entitlement to wander into the path of trains.
I didn't think you were endorsing the air bag concept as much as making sure Mr. Raney had his chance at the podium, which is only right, he is entitles to his point of view and has the right to promote it...but note he has yet to return and post more after 4 pages of discussion.
If it walks like a troll, err, duck and quacks like a duck....
My initial question to you about having been on a locomotive when it hits something was for my own knowledge...once you have been there, you realize about the only thing that will survive impact with a locomotive is another locomotive, and often, neither one really survives.
Sometimes folks can make the most ludicrous ideas and concepts sound almost rational, and that, I am afraid, is what we are dealing with here.
To those with no concept of what contact with a moving train does to other objects, people in particular, this sounds like a plausible concept, after all, their auto has air bags, right.
Sad thing is, air bags are useless in automobile accidents that occur at speeds over 40mph simply because the inertia continues on long after the air bag has deflated...you still get banged around in the car...but as was pointed out, lots of folks tend to believe the air bag will save them in any accident.
Prudence, caution and skill are the only things that can really help in an auto accident, and as for people walking or driving in front of a moving train, it seems the is no need for an entitlement, they seem to be able to do it quite frequently all on their own.
edblysardLogan's Run and Soilent Green and Spielberg's "THX" come to mind,
Logan's Run and Soilent Green and Spielberg's "THX" come to mind,
FWIW, THX-1138 was a Lucas film, based on a project he did at USC's film school (which I got to see when going to an Open House at USC spring 1971).
I'm also very dubious about the locomotive air bag working.
- Erik
Couldn't remember if it was Spielberg or Lucas....the film is still a good watch, forces you to think where we are heading.
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