Paul_D_North_JrBucyrus: "I am specifically interested in learning the specific definition of "knowing the road" so to speak." blownout cylinder: "What exactly does it mean? Let us examine this carefully. If I am talking about a specific road then I should know what is generally aound me at any time. Crossings, crossovers, turnouts, sidings, industrial switchpoints etc PP so on. If it is not specific enough then it could also include the local vegetational features, landscape, woodlots and such.
Ok, Frost, MN. If all I saw was the fire tankers loading spout, I knew where I was. If I saw two large rocks along a diagonal crossing, I was at MP 20.2. The old Dodge rusting in the woods is near Keister, in one mile, I will see on the opposite side of the tracks an old harvestor. Near State Line, there is a cross buck out in the middle of the field (just a display for a home made park). As you pass the old radio tower in Hanlontown, you are exactly 1.5 miles from the yard board, despite two timetable slows.
If you see things enough, they become memory. For some, odd things like that crossbuck in the middle of nowhere, are easy. I know too many people however who gloss over so many things in life. It all depends on how receptive your mind is.
Bucyrus Now some engineers might be able to know the road in such zero-visibility. But when it is expected that engineers know the road, I doubt that this automatically assumes that they can adequately know the road without the use of eyesight. Knowing the road without eyesight would be far more difficult than knowing the road with eyesight.
I worked with an engineer in the 90's on the Branch, who was narcoleptic. Yet trip after trip, he never ever missed blowing a crossing. He has however, retired.
One of my winter runs was in white out conditions, I knew where to blow, and where we were. It aint that hard. If you time your trip, you will not be very far off at all.
And PTC will change all that, as I said, the heck with wayside signals, who needs em?
zugmann Paul_D_North_Jr " zugmann: "We just know." Nahh - the better answer, Zug, is from about 35 - 40 years ago: "I know it when I see it."* ;-) *U.S. Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart, as I recall. - Paul North. From fog to porn! Have to love trains.com! Anything that you can use as a landmark, you do.
Paul_D_North_Jr " zugmann: "We just know." Nahh - the better answer, Zug, is from about 35 - 40 years ago: "I know it when I see it."* ;-) *U.S. Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart, as I recall. - Paul North.
From fog to porn! Have to love trains.com!
Anything that you can use as a landmark, you do.
I remember reading a story, but can't remember where, about an engineer who overshot his station stop with a passenger train. The reason was someone cut down the tree that was his landmark to start braking for the stop.
It also brings to mind a fiction story appropriate for this thread that appeared in the old Railroad Magazine, I believe a few times. It's called "On a fog bound night." Written by (IIRC) John Johns, a New York Central conductor. It deals with an engineer who is sleepy and misses a signal in the fog. His crew doesn't think he missed it, that there wasn't a signal where he said it was. He relates the landmarks he saw and was adament that there was a signal and he missed it. He decides to reduce speed, much to the disgust and derision from the rest of the head end crew.
Of course he comes across the passenger train ahead of him short flagging because they're in ABS territory. Had he not slowed down, he wouldn't have seen the flagman's fusee in time to stop. (I need to reread the story, I don't remember if the flagman had put his guns out.) It turns out the train ahead stopped to report the light in the signal that the second train missed had burned out.
Jeff
zugmann I bet Eleanor Roosevelt was good at kicking cars in the fog...
I bet Eleanor Roosevelt was good at kicking cars in the fog...
Eleanor has her very own thread now: http://cs.trains.com/trccs/forums/t/172903.aspx
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
Murray Eleanor Roosevelt knows her territory.......
Eleanor Roosevelt knows her territory.......
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Let's face one reality, even in perfectly clear weather, trains cannot be operated on 'sight distance' at any speed other than restricted speed. With the curvature, grades, cuts and fills that make up the normal railroad operating enviornment, trains operating at normal track speeds CANNOT be stoped for a obstruction upon viewing it, as 50 to 70% of the territory in the Eastern US does not have sight lines that will permit a train crew to take action to stop the train when braking distances are between one & two miles for tonnage trains operating at track speeds of 50 MPH and higher.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
[EDITED 04-23-2010 10:05 AM to fix the formatting - see the ''Trains.com hates me'' thread by coborn35 on likely reasons why - Google Chrome, etc.]
Bucyrus: "I am specifically interested in learning the specific definition of "knowing the road" so to speak."
blownout cylinder: "What exactly does it mean? Let us examine this carefully. If I am talking about a specific road then I should know what is generally aound me at any time. Crossings, crossovers, turnouts, sidings, industrial switchpoints etc PP so on. If it is not specific enough then it could also include the local vegetational features, landscape, woodlots and such.
This almost comes off like an exercise in epistemology---how do we know what we know?''
zugmann: "We just know."
Nahh - the better answer, Zug, is from about 35 - 40 years ago:
"I know it when I see it."*
*U.S. Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart, as I recall.
- Paul North.
Murphy Siding If it's illogical, how did I find my way to work?
Uh, that was the point!! How you got to work is irrelevant. You could have a clear road driving to the RR yard, and even fairly good visibility for awhile on the track, until you run into 30 miles of heavy fog with visibility of 10 feet. I've noticed some/most railroads have for charts to help with recognition. I also found this quote from this article:
ams.confex.com/ams/pdfpapers/118791.pdf
Technologies, such as Runway Visual Range (RVR) developed for the aviation sector may also benefit railroads. Impaired visibility caused by fog conditions remains a critical safety problem for railroads. Nighttime saturation of air masses through lowland and mountainous terrain is a frequently a precursor to fog development that can result in reduced speed and increase the risks of accidents and incidents. RVR technology constitutes an effective means for providing a standardized, one-minute sampling means of accurately measuring visibility along airport runways. It could be adapted to serve similar applications along critical segments of railroad track by providing more accurate and timely visibility information to railroad operations centers, dispatchers, conductors and maintenance crews. It could also help management plan investment decision-making by offering targeted information on potential problem spots.
Sounds like this isn't as much of a non-issue as some seem to think. In the 10 year period 1995-2005, fog-related railroad accidents caused 22 accidents leading to 3 deaths and $7.8 mil. in damage.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Maybe its just me, but...
You realize the tracks go the same place they did yesterday, and the day before?
Its not like the engineer has to "drive" the train, all he has to do is control the speed and the slack.
We get on the train in a "known" location, so we already have a good idea of where we are, and we know where we are going to, so all we really need is an occasional land mark, be it a crossing, diamond or trackside structure along the way.
Like Big Jim said, a glance out the window and a glimpse of a familiar landmark and your good to go.
We can't get lost, like I said, the tracks go to the same place they did before.
As for obstacles in the way, about the only thing we would worry about is a automobile driver blowing through the gates, beyond that, not much to worry about.
Another train?
Well, if someone stopped where they were not supposed to, the first thing the rules tell you to do is announce that fact on the radio, and contact the dispatcher immediately.
And no one runs train so close together in fog that you have much of a chance of running into the rear of a stopped train, and the same "big board" the dispatcher uses in clear weather works just as well in the fog, so in CTC it makes little difference.
The dispatcher knows it is foggy, he or she checked with terminal and corridor managers when they sat down at the desk, so they take extra precautions too.
Airplanes routinely fly through clouds and fog, with zero visibility, relying on their on board systems to guide them, because they can and do change course and altitude, you can "drive" a plane so to speak...we can't, all we can do is start and stop, the physical plant is the same every time.
As for missed wayside signals, the GCOR has a rule, as does Norac, that basically states when a crew reaches a point on the railroad where they expect to see a signal, and the signal is missing or not displaying an aspect (dark) they are to treat the signal or the missing signal as showing the most restrictive aspect, (red) and stop.
The accompanying rule states they are to immediately notify any trains in the area they know about, and to contact the dispatcher to the reason for the stop.
Note the rule states "expect to see a signal....the rule assumes you know where the signals are, and it assumes you have prepared to follow whatever aspect it displays.
That being the case, I know of no engineer or conductor who, after a few runs on new territory, fails to look for a signal where it normally is, and none of them assume it will be displaying the same aspect every time...fog causes no real problems for road crews beyond crossing issues.
Yard crews deal with it quite simply, we go slow, don't kick cars until we have personally placed bumper cars in a track and noted such on our list.
I don't trust yard turnover reports in clear weather, so why should fog make any difference?
I have flat switched in fog where the visibility was 10 feet or so...it is a little slower and you take a little more precaution and double check some things but as long as my switchman tells me the switch is lined, well, here we go....
Wabash, being a good doggie today?
23 17 46 11
Thank you Paul. bucyrus look at pauls post in the nut shell it states that engine service wmployees will know the phisical characteristics and yes they do qualify by riding with you and testing your abilities and every year they must ride with you to sign your lic. tostay current on your ability to do your job, the last part of this is performance and handling of your train.
the only thing i can tell you is that the train is to run at track speed at all times if you can not hold track speed you better be having engine problems. the dispatcher is making meets and running a schedual and your better deliver ive seen tapes pulled for running faster than what the dispatcher had you timed for( guilty) and ive seen tapes pulled for guys running slow on perpose ( not me) i wont tell you what you get for punishment, it wont happen again. your trying to split hairs just remeber things on railroads are simple they work off a 5 th grade education to understand the way things operate. keep it simple and do your job. like the rule says you know the phisical outlay of the land run yyour train accordingly.
Again thanks for taking the time to type and post the rules Paul.. Here have a OREO.
If it's illogical, how did I find my way to work?
Same way I do. You get to know the territory you're in.
I think the only reason that there is this issue is that we are seeing people starting to get into self doubt, second guessing themselves and hence ending up wondering how in blue blazes they know what they know.
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
But, you need only minimal visibility to know where you are.
One way to know where you are is a trick used by racing drivers in the rain or maybe they learned it from RR engineers. They look out of their side window.
So, a bit of advice to those of you who may be starting out in a RR career, pay attention to your surroundings.
.
Murphy Siding If we had (absolute) zero-visibility when I headed out to work, we wouldn't have to worry about whether I could make it or not. I'd still be out in the yard somewhere, searching for the detatched garage.
Illogical. One might encounter zero-visibility after starting a run some miles or time from the starting point. I think what would matter are these fine-tunings of Bucyrus' clear points:
1. How far does one need to see to "know where you are?" Zero? 1-5 feet? 5-10 feet? More?
2. How does that translate into actual weather conditions. As i recall, the NWS gives visibility information in feet, not a percentage. The percentage of time those conditions not allowing you to KWYA is probably a good deal more than 99.9%.
wabash1 Paul do us a favor the man bucurys( if i spelled it right) is asking for rules the rule that comes to mind is right there with engineer duties and conductors dutys the one that states it is the conductors resposibility to make sure that the trains is started on time and no delays etc... that set of rules could you cut and paste that whole thing in here, it also has referance to engineers doing the same in a efficient manner . If i remeber ( dont have rle book infront of me) toward the end of that rule it says about delays and qualifications post what you can that deals with that. PLEASE. [snip]
From the NS Operating Rules Book, Effective May 1, 2008, pages 146 and 149 [ of 190], as found at: http://blet73.org/Operating%20Rules.pdf
TRAIN SERVICE EMPLOYEES
580. Receiving Instructions — Conductors and Trainmen
Conductors and Trainmen report to and receive their instructions from the Division Superintendent or other designated officer. They must obey the instructions of Transportation Supervisors, Train Dispatcher/ Control Operators, Yardmasters, and from officers of other departments on matters pertaining to those departments. . . .
(a)
(b)
1.
. . .
5.
600. Receiving Instructions; Governing Instructions
Engine service employees are directly responsible to and must follow the instructions of Division and Terminal officers. . . . They will follow the instructions of Dispatchers, Train Dispatcher/Control Operators, Yardmasters and of their Conductors with respect to the general management of their trains.
601. Qualification; Checking Inspection Forms
602. Responsibilities; Engine Service Employees
Murphy SidingBucyrus makes reference to (absolute) zero-visibility. To me, that's sort of taking the exception, and trying to work it backwards, to see the outcome if it were the norm. 99.9% of the time, it's not going to be (absolute) zero-visibility. Therefore, it's not really applicable to use that as any kind of standard.
I am not trying to say that zero-visibility should be the norm for the response to all fog conditions.
But sometimes there will be zero-visibility fog. I am only asking about those times. It is an interesting question because fog always varies as you go through it. There is always a sense that you will be able to see your way through it. Drivers on the highway push the limits with fog, and yet sometimes have massive pileups where the fog suddenly got too thick. Train running pushes the limits as well.
In fact it pushes the limits further because of what has been cited regarding the self-guiding principle, the right to the corridor, and protection of track authority. But, nevertheless, railroad companies need to expect those relatively infrequent cases of zero-visibility or near-zero-visibility fog that are bound to occur. I am just wondering how they deal with those cases.
I'm not a railroader, and I didn't stay in a Holiday Inn last night, but,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, Over the winter, there were 8-10 times where I drove the 8 miles to work in the thickest fog I'd ever seen- in the dark. On a couple occasions, that was accompanied by blowing snow. And yet, I still made it to work. I could make out enough of the familiar surroundings to know where I was, and what to expect next. Knowing the route meant I didn't miss several stops signs and stop lights, all the turns and intersetcions, and the turn-off into work. It's not hard for me to believe that an engineer, familiar with his route, would have no trouble doing something similar in a train. If you think about it, that same engineer found his way to work in the fog, just like I did. And it's almost like he's on rails. Bucyrus makes reference to (absolute) zero-visibility. To me, that's sort of taking the exception, and trying to work it backwards, to see the outcome if it were the norm. 99.9% of the time, it's not going to be (absolute) zero-visibility. Therefore, it's not really applicable to use that as any kind of standard. If we had (absolute) zero-visibility when I headed out to work, we wouldn't have to worry about whether I could make it or not. I'd still be out in the yard somewhere, searching for the detatched garage.
In an earlier post, I used the term visibility-reducing fog which leaves the door open to fog that is somewhat obscuring, but not that difficult to see the key details when knowing the road. But I misspoke since I did not intend confuse the issue by considering the various degrees of fog.
So, just to be clear, I am asking about the definition of “knowing the road” when you cannot see past the cab windows. I am talking about zero-visibility. And for practical purposes, some of how this is addressed might extend into situations where visibility is not zero, but close to zero. But for purpose of discussion, let's start with zero.
Now some engineers might be able to know the road in such zero-visibility. But when it is expected that engineers know the road, I doubt that this automatically assumes that they can adequately know the road without the use of eyesight. Knowing the road without eyesight would be far more difficult than knowing the road with eyesight.
In zero-visibility, knowing where you are at on the railroad would be vitally critical when running at track speed. I can’t believe that an organization as safety-minded as the railroads would simply allow engineers to declare they know the road and can therefore run at track speed in cases where fog removes all visual cues.
Since I am the guilty party who innocently posted this question, let me at the outset state that I am jaw-dropping astonished at the replies. First, I didn't realize this question has been posted before. Second, I was completely unprepared for the firestorm this thread ignited among certain readers. Third, I learned a lot about operating trains in foggy conditions, although I admit some of the posts seem contradictory.
I'd like to say that zardosz's contribution was poetic. It described beautifully the feeling I think I would have if I had to operate a train where I could see nothing.
Are the rules for foggy operation the same in Europe as in the USA? Remember, in the UK they don't even have headlights on locomotives on a similar theory that I see expressed here about fog, namely, that it's OK to assume there is nothing on the right of way that ought not to be there.
My father was in the Navy from 1938-1945 and told me several times about how ferry boats in Puget Sound would navigate from Seattle to Bremerton during a heavy fog by blowing their whistles and then counting the seconds of reverberation or echo from various islands in order to know where they were. To this day that sends shivers down my back! But it also speaks to what another contributor posted, that we sometimes have let our faith in machines replace our faith in each other's abilities.
I 'd like to say that I feel my original question has`been fully answered.
Jeeze dude, you crack me up!
First, if in my reply to Wabash I offended anyone, I appologize. That wasn't my intent (If I want to offend, you'll know it) and I wasn't trying to single anyone out.
Now, if being able to see long distances ahead is a prerequisite for operating a track speed, how do (or maybe did) the British run trains at night? I don't know current practices, but in the steam days weren't the headlights on the locomotive more of a classification system, not for illuminating the tracks ahead? I'm under the impression that they did have fewer grade crossings and better protection at any actual grade crossings. Still, I get the impression that some feel that train crews should be able to see any potentional obstacle or tresspasser at all times no matter the location. If that's the case, did British trains crawl along at night?
One other thing about the rule book, any rule book. If you interpret it a certain way, you'll never turn a wheel. Some managers get mad when things are taking so long because you are doing things as the book states. Yet, they won't bat an eye to write you up if you don't do it that way. (I won't say there are some who will look the other way if you bend something today when it benefits them, but will yell and scream at you tomorrow for the same thing. I'll strongly think it, though.)
BucyrusTo "know the road" needs a very precise definition. And I expect the industry has one.
With this having bounced back and forth over a couple of threads, I thought somebody might have come up with the story of a PennCentral wreck on the Chicago Line. I can't recall details of location, Ohio or Indiana I think, and the year, but a PC train running at track speed rear ended a stopped train. The NTSB report found that there were heavy patches of fog for some stretch at the time of the accident, that the conditions were known by the dispatch desk, but they pressed crews operating in the area to maintain speeds. The engine crew was killed in the accident, burt it was obvious that they had missed the approach and possibly the last stop ( or restricted speed) signals.
As I recall, the NTSB, perhaps with some testing, concluded that between the fog and the engineers line of sight, the signals would have been visible for well less than a second. Keep in mind that at 60MPH a train is traveling 88 feet per second. If the visible range is 10 feet, don't blink.
"We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics
coborn35oltmanndThe only things the engineer has to know are his movement authority and where he is at the moment. The type of movement authority, whether it's from a train order, fixed signal, cab signal, or track warrant doesn't really matter. The only time line of sight is important is when the you are operating at restricted speed which requires you to be able to stop in half the distance you can see. Oltmannd, I believe you are an engineer or something, so I will not directly disagree with you. However in our GCOR we are taught that in conditions such as fog, snow etc, we must only operate at a speed at which we are able to stop in half our line of sight.
oltmanndThe only things the engineer has to know are his movement authority and where he is at the moment. The type of movement authority, whether it's from a train order, fixed signal, cab signal, or track warrant doesn't really matter. The only time line of sight is important is when the you are operating at restricted speed which requires you to be able to stop in half the distance you can see.
6.21: Precautions Against Unusual Conditions
Protect trains and engines against any known condition that may interfere with their safety.
When conditions restrict visibility, regulate speed to ensure that crew members can observe
and comply with signal indications.
In unusually heavy rain, storm, or high water, trains and engines must approach bridges,
safely, they must stop until it is safe to resume movement.
Advise the train dispatcher of such conditions by the first available means of communication.
22.5: Precautions Against Unusual Conditions
to provide maintenance employee access to track.
Nothing at all about fog. I would say to use common sense, but it is lacking on the part of many people of late. Same goes in a snow storm, highball unless you feel there is some sort of impediment. Use your brain for more than a hat-rack.
blownout cylinder BucyrusI am specifically interested in learning the specific definition of "knowing the road" so to speak. What exactly does it mean? Let us examine this carefully. If I am talking about a specific road then I should know what is generally aound me at any time. Crossings, crossovers, turnouts, sidings, industrial switchpoints etc PP so on. If it is not specific enough then it could also include the local vegetational features, landscape, woodlots and such. This almost comes off like an exercise in epistemology---how do we know what we know?
BucyrusI am specifically interested in learning the specific definition of "knowing the road" so to speak.
What exactly does it mean? Let us examine this carefully. If I am talking about a specific road then I should know what is generally aound me at any time. Crossings, crossovers, turnouts, sidings, industrial switchpoints etc PP so on. If it is not specific enough then it could also include the local vegetational features, landscape, woodlots and such.
This almost comes off like an exercise in epistemology---how do we know what we know?
Not so to speak. GCOR SSI states that an engineer will be qualified on a subdivision prior to taking a job. Other orders and bulletins speak to familiarity, and the requirement to contact your manager prior to taking a job where you have not run in the last six months.
I have not been on the road in five years. I can still remember where the crossings are on the Branch, where the old coaling tower was, State Line crossing, and most twists and turns. I would need to take familiarization trips however because automatic switches have been added, Control points, and one new industry.
Prior to the Branch being rebuilt in 1999, we took a night trip south on a foggy night. While it was 10 mph, at every unprotected crossing we dropped fusees off to visually warn the public. I got pretty good doing without the darned things going out on impact. If you saw the whistle post, that is all the warning you needed.
Today at 49 mph, highball and make enough noise to wake the dead. To the motorists who fail to stop, look, and listen, oh well, their Fail!
For me, working on ATC provided the most reliability, knowing the block ahead was clear, who needs wayside signals. Again, highball.
blownout cylinder This almost comes off like an exercise in epistemology---how do we know what we know?
We just know.
You guys got to page 5 without much help from me on the fog issue. I'm impressed!
blue streak 1 Paul_D_North_JrIt seems to me that most such accidents occur just after sunrise - when it's still dark, the train's headlight might penetrate and illuminate the fog just enough to provide a dim visual warning of its approach - but when it's light out, the headlight doesn't have that effect. Paul you are so correct: The FAA and ICAO recognize this difference. When approaching an airport near dawn if the visibility to see runway and approach lights is say 600 ft when the day night sensor goes to days the visibility may then be only 200ft. We had fog here this morning and I could see abut 1200 ft but at dawn vis rapidly decreased to 300 ft.
Paul_D_North_JrIt seems to me that most such accidents occur just after sunrise - when it's still dark, the train's headlight might penetrate and illuminate the fog just enough to provide a dim visual warning of its approach - but when it's light out, the headlight doesn't have that effect.
Paul you are so correct: The FAA and ICAO recognize this difference. When approaching an airport near dawn if the visibility to see runway and approach lights is say 600 ft when the day night sensor goes to days the visibility may then be only 200ft. We had fog here this morning and I could see abut 1200 ft but at dawn vis rapidly decreased to 300 ft.
This is why they fly IFR, the Localizer and Glidescope if monitored, can get you pretty close. Of the NTSB accident reports I have read, it was failure to verify those instruments on the approach in limited visability conditions.
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