I just read about the Tesla Roadster electric car and evidently both its body panals and frame are built entirly out of carbon fiber. CF is, if I'm not mistaken,just as strong as steel yet lighter. That begs the question, why not make fright cars out it?
It seems like CF would offer many advantages over steel. Lighter wieght means either less fuel consumed or increased cargo capacity without increasing the size of the car. Also it never rusts possibly yielding a longer service life and less maintainence.
What do you think?
Modeling the Pennsylvania Railroad in N Scale.
www.prr-nscale.blogspot.com
One issue that I'd see is that carbon fiber composites are not as ductile as metal, more likely to fracture than bend. Itdoes have some nice features as far as corrosion resistance, but is much less resistant to ozone and UV than metals. There's quite a bit of fuel that goes into the manufacture of the carbon fiber itself as well as the composite matrix (e.g. epoxy).
First rail applications will most likely be in passenger equipment.
- Erik
GP-9_Man11786That begs the question, why not make fright cars out it?
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
ACF-Southern Pacific-Cargill had worked together to make the Glasshoppers back in the late 1970's. They built the fiberglass-composite type hoppers sucessfully. You need to find the specific reasons behind why they did not keep making them.
Andrew
Watch my videos on-line at https://www.youtube.com/user/AndrewNeilFalconer
Thaw sheds and gas-fired switch heaters.
Rotary car dumpers and car shakers.
Cold-weather impact resistance.
Detail molding at connections, esp. the draft gear, to avoid stress concentrations and cracks.
Resistance to buckling when subjected to high buff = compression loads and impacts, such as when the slack runs in.
Susceptibility to lots of damage from minor impacts, such as 'cornering' or sideswipes, minor derailments. Now - just bent metal; with CF - shredded fabric ?
Old joke: The 2 most popular tools on the railroad are the hammer and the cutting torch. It woudn't do well against either of those.
Stability of a high-profile car in high winds might be problematic.
It might be good for heavy, non-corrosive, frost-proof, fluidizeable loads of small particles, such as plastic pellets, grains, and the like. Not for any minerals or where mechanized unloading is involved, I think.
- Paul North.
Andrew Falconer ACF-Southern Pacific-Cargill had worked together to make the Glasshoppers back in the late 1970's. They built the fiberglass-composite type hoppers sucessfully. You need to find the specific reasons behind why they did not keep making them. [emphasis added - PDN]
Maybe it was that name ? In the macho railroad workplace culture back then, would it have even had a chance ? This could turn into another thread of bad jokes with that one . . .
Cost . As an apprentice machinist, I had an insructor who built model airplanes. A rubber band powered model could use over a hundred bucks of the stuff. The real McCoy cost major money. It is not repairable at current car shops. It is a fantasy in the rail industry.
Its really going to be too light for use, a carbon fiber bodied car will be extremely suseptable to string- lining unless its in a unit train. a dent on steel or aluminum car would be major structural damage on a carbon fiber car. (plus you can't fix it with a blue flame wrench)
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
Stoughton Trailers came out with Compaosite Reefers for the OTR industry also. Guess what OTR mechanics and RR emchanics must go to the SAME SCHOOL GET ME A BIGGER HAMMER. Well that and 80% of the new drivers out there can not Back into a parking space to save their lives. The trailer was a great idea 1000 lbs lighter in a 53 ft trailer however impossible to repair if damaged. So even PRIME and ENGLAND who tried them refused to keep getting them.
Paul_D_North_JrOld joke: The 2 most popular tools on the railroad are the hammer and the cutting torch. It woudn't do well against either of those.
One of the craziest things I ever saw on the RR was the process for "fixing" gondolas in the repair line at Hollidaysburg car shop. For cars that had taken on a rather positive camber from having loads applied in a rather haphazard manner (OK, what I really mean is severely swayback cars from being miss-loaded and otherwise beat to a pulp) they had a large ram that they would center the car over. Then they had some restraints they would place over the strikers on each end of the car. About 4 guys with large heating torches would then heat the centersill in the middle ot the car until it glowed red. One guy would man the valve on the ram and apply pressure until the car looked more or less straight and level again. They car would be sent to the next position in the line and they'd roll the next car in and do it again.
When I was working on a trailer one time had to replace the Right Rear spring broken leaf and therefore would place trailer OOS. These were all the tools I took under the trailer with me ONE VERY BFH ONE CUTTING TORCH ONE 3/4 DRIVE IMPACT WRENCH. Parts were 2 new Ubolts one spring and one new epqulizer. Repair went like this pull equilizer bolt out take BFH drive it forward and out of slot. Take torch and cut Ubolts on old spring. Remove Spring place new spring in place and tighten New U bolts in place with Impact Wrench. Use BFH to drive New Equalizer into place and install Bolt with impact wrench.
oltmannd One of the craziest things I ever saw on the RR was the process for "fixing" gondolas in the repair line at Hollidaysburg car shop. . . . About 4 guys with large heating torches would then heat the centersill in the middle ot the car until it glowed red. One guy would man the valve on the ram and apply pressure until the car looked more or less straight and level again. . . .
I suppose the torches might have screwed up the metallurgy of the steel in the gon's center sill - but the heat would have also annealed it and relieved any residual stresses; net result was probably about a 'wash'.
About 5 years ago my 15 ft. long Grumman canoe - made out of aircraft-grade aluminum - had a too-close encounter with some large rocks, which resulted in about 2" of camber the other way - upwards. The local friendly autobody shop - 'Dopey' Duncan's - put it in their uni-body frame machine on a slow Friday afternoon, and with much the same procedure - except no torches were needed - made it good as it was before, as far as I could tell.
Mclaren made Mclaren F1 cars in the 90s. Weighed about 2300 pounds, had 627hp BMW V12 in it with a 6 speed. At redline in 6th it went 241mph. They calculated with different gearing it would top out at 260 mph. About 107 were made. Bodies out of carbon fiber. CF is a fabric cut out into shape and laid on a form then heated or cooked to make its shape permanent. Its a puzzle of pieces to put the car body together. It is very labor intensive to make cars out of it. But then if they could get robots to make the stuff then maybe some day CF will be in all of our cars. There are many videos of this car on youtube. A test driver wiped out a prototype going 220 mph. It flipped end to end. The driver walked away from the accident. The president of BMW crashed his on the Autobahn going over 200 mph and walked away from the accident. If the engine had survived I'd love to put it in my 2004 Ranger. If carbon fiber ever found its way onto RR cars it won't be soon or extensive.
Modeling the "Fargo Area Rapid Transit" in O scale 3 rail.
CF no doubt has plenty appropriate applications where it serves well, but I'd think with added abuse / forces, in railroad use, is not the environment to use it for building railroad cars {freight cars}, that gross out with very heavy loads and have a {duty cycle}, abusive work life.
Quentin
Ever seen when a Indy car hits the wall. Now imagine a Railcar full of say Cholrine Gas or LPG made of CF derailing and breaching do you want to be the one that said OH THEY ARE SAFE TO USE. CF is fine when being used to LIGHTEN LOADS in certain uses. I for one would NOT TRUST IT FOR anything on a Railroad use unless it was in say Crossing arms or Signal poles. Something if hit you want to break. Maybe for a nonskid surface on car but that would be about it. I would want good old STEEL for my cars if they are hauling Haz MAT.
Carbon fiber performs well in situations where the stresses it must withstand can be predicted and controlled. When carbon fiber receives stresses from angles and areas it was not designed to withstand it shatters like glass. It is not a material that has a structural use in railroad equipment.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACD When carbon fiber receives stresses from angles and areas it was not designed to withstand it shatters like glass.
When carbon fiber receives stresses from angles and areas it was not designed to withstand it shatters like glass.
Come on now, we KNOW railroad cars NEVER receive stress to areas other than they are supposed to...
PS. Goat, oreos, fog, fusees, waving, Eleanor Roosevelt, etc etc.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
PDN, Jr.: don't go there! It would be considered an ethnic slur on Trains 'Forums'. You would join me in the "sin bin".
Wirriam D.Hays
CShaveRR UP got a batch of composite-side mechanical reefers from Trinity Industries soon after the mergers with CNW and SP. They're also no longer on the roster (Trinity Industries took them back, and they look terrible, in spite of new paint).
UP got a batch of composite-side mechanical reefers from Trinity Industries soon after the mergers with CNW and SP. They're also no longer on the roster (Trinity Industries took them back, and they look terrible, in spite of new paint).
Here I thought it was Gunderson who made those composite reefers. BNSF's reefers were built by Trinity in 2001, however only the roof was composite. I also have some recollection of CRYX cars which appeared to be composite. It could also be a foggy memory from an old mind.
The CRYX cars instead of using Mechanical refeer units think teh ones on the Nose of a Trailer well they were cooled with IIRC Dry Ice or Liquid Nitorgen worked great for Frozen NOT SO GOOD WITH ANYTHING ELSE. See if your trying to get a backhaul and the only thing you can get is a frozen load of Potatoes and your in the Midwest YOUR SCREWED. Now with a Mechaincal reefer unit you can do whatever you need to reset the temp and go.
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