MP173What is next? How far is the industry from having on line sensors on the bearings. Retailers are doing something similar to this determining the distribution of product into geographic areas. Granted the technology for reading temperature and transmitting info is considerably more advanced....but is that on the drawing board, or rather the screen at this time?
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
The term "truck hunting" has appeared a couple of times.
Definition please.
ed
The St. Louis paper today reported a freight train received a dragging equipment defect and stopped. They found a corpse tangled in the couplers between cars. They believe he was snared while trying to climb through the train when it was stopped. He was dragged for six miles.
One of our supervisors seriously suggested that we could train dogs to snoop out hot boxes with their noses. I suppose the dog could give the axle count by stamping his paw on the ground.
Although we don't have any yet, the latest thing is the audio detectors, that listen for the "growling" of failing wheel bearings.
Nick
Take a Ride on the Reading with the: Reading Company Technical & Historical Society http://www.readingrailroad.org/
MP173 The term "truck hunting" has appeared a couple of times. Definition please. ed
From the Salient Systems webpage for its Hunting Truck Detector at: http://www.salientsystems.com/prod_hunting.html [emphasis added - PDN]
Hunting trucks underneath rail cars can violently oscillate from one rail to the other as they traverse along tangent track, inducing excessive lateral forces that significantly contribute to the rapid wear of rail and rail cars in a relatively short time. This particular type of degraded vehicle performance is a leading cause of damage to delicate lading. At a minimum, hunting trucks cause increased fuel consumption. Unchecked, severe damage to truck components and derailment can result.
There's something like 1'' or 1-1/2'' of 'play' / tolerance/ 'slop' between even a properly gauged wheelset*, and the nominal tangent track gauge of 4'-8-1/2'', as measured at the gauge line at 5/8'' below the tops of the rails. While that works great to provide flexibility in curves to keep the trucks from binding, on tangent track it can be too much of a good thing. That's one reason the PRR went to a slightly narrower 'standard' gauge of 4'-8-1/4'' on tangents for a while . . .
- Paul North.
*Can't remember exactly what that dimension should be. If I don't find it, someone please post it. Thanks.
EDIT - See also the lengthy and learned discussion in the Wikipedia article on this, at - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunting_oscillation
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
CShaveRR Perhaps these ideas were abandoned when it was realized that these bolts are actually needed to hold the bearing together!
Dan
Given the advances in RFI, taking the ideas Carl mentions a step or two further might involve a small RFI transponder on each wheel. The transponder would include a sensor for heat, which would set an alarm condition on that device. Next time a trackside monitor interrogated the transponder it would show the alarm, which could then be handled much as they are now.
The downsides are the sheer number of transponders needed and the fact that it would not give real-time status - only when the car passed a sensor.
IIRC, roller bearings do/did include a cartridge that would go off when an overheat condition occurred. I'm pretty sure it stunk (as did friction bearing hot boxes), and may have smoked. Of course, now there's no one in a caboose to smell it or see the smoke...
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
joesap1 One of our supervisors seriously suggested that we could train dogs to snoop out hot boxes with their noses. I suppose the dog could give the axle count by stamping his paw on the ground.
In the January-February 1962 Rock Island employee's magazine is an obituary for "Queenie." She was a collie owned by an assistant trainmaster at St. Joseph, Mo that had learned to sniff out hotboxes.
They even had a picture of her at work, walking along side a cut of cars.
Jeff
CNW 6000 . . . Are there any other types than these? HB, DE, WILD, Clearance.
In addition to my list from yesterday, I now remember there used to be ''Loose Wheel Detectors''.
Also, someplace yesterday I saw something that indicated very sophisticated scanners now have the capability to scan adn evaluate the profile/ shape of each wheel and find conditions or defects like thin flanges, worn hollow/ 'false flange' / 'double flange' conditions, flat spots by that method instead of the resulting impact, shells, etc.
Paul_D_North_JrAlso, someplace yesterday I saw something that indicated very sophisticated scanners now have the capability to scan adn evaluate the profile/ shape of each wheel and find conditions or defects like thin flanges, worn hollow/ 'false flange' / 'double flange' conditions, flat spots by that method instead of the resulting impact, shells, etc.
Paul_D_North_JrHunting trucks underneath rail cars can violently oscillate from one rail to the other as they traverse along tangent track, inducing excessive lateral forces that significantly contribute to the rapid wear of rail and rail cars in a relatively short time. This particular type of degraded vehicle performance is a leading cause of damage to delicate lading. At a minimum, hunting trucks cause increased fuel consumption. Unchecked, severe damage to truck components and derailment can result.
Railway Man"I know what you're thinking. "Does this train have six thousand feet or only five?" Well, to tell you the truth, in all this excitement after those last three pickups and set-outs and the lousy paperwork from customer service, I kind of lost track myself. But being as this next siding will only fit five, and we'll stab three Z trains and a business-car special if it doesn't fit, you've got to ask yourself one question: Do I feel lucky? Well, do ya, punk?"
Now THAT is a classic. Well done!!!!!
It "made my day"!
You're right about them usually being called "Defect Detectors" in the time table. Usually most do look for multiple defects. However, when a hot bearing is detected, ours will say 1st hot box, (N,S,E,or W depending on location) rail, axle xxx from head of train, etc. If there is more than one, many times it's due to sticking brakes or a hand brake still partially applied.
So the term Hot Box Detector is still heard. The difference from the use of detector instead of scanner is probably a regional thing, like so many other things.
Paul_D_North_Jr CNW 6000 . . . Are there any other types than these? HB, DE, WILD, Clearance. In addition to my list from yesterday, I now remember there used to be ''Loose Wheel Detectors''. Also, someplace yesterday I saw something that indicated very sophisticated scanners now have the capability to scan adn evaluate the profile/ shape of each wheel and find conditions or defects like thin flanges, worn hollow/ 'false flange' / 'double flange' conditions, flat spots by that method instead of the resulting impact, shells, etc. - Paul North.
BNSFwatcher"Hot Box scanners", with the advent of universal roller bearings on trains, is kind of a misnomer. They are now called "Defect Detectors". Their capabilities range from detecting hot journals, broken wheels, and dragging equipment. Some do all three, plus other services. Some are sophisticated, some just mechanical devices. They can radio info to the train crew and dispatcher. Of course, the axle count would be off in a FL-9 or a FM/CLC "Consolidation" was the power! Har! I'm not the expert, and will like to hear more about this subject. BTW, the railroads frown upon anyone going near them! Hays
Really? On the 5,000 lbs. of signal engineering drawings that are about to crush my office, they are called "hot-box detectors" and "dragging-equipment detectors" and so forth. They might be co-located in the field (like 50 feet apart) and report their output on the same radio channel but they are very much different sets of equipment that do different things. The term "defect detector" is a category, like "fruit" is a category for apples, oranges, and strawberries.
RWM
Railway Man BNSFwatcher"Hot Box scanners", with the advent of universal roller bearings on trains, is kind of a misnomer. They are now called "Defect Detectors". Their capabilities range from detecting hot journals, broken wheels, and dragging equipment. Some do all three, plus other services. Some are sophisticated, some just mechanical devices. They can radio info to the train crew and dispatcher. Of course, the axle count would be off in a FL-9 or a FM/CLC "Consolidation" was the power! Har! I'm not the expert, and will like to hear more about this subject. BTW, the railroads frown upon anyone going near them! Hays Really? On the 5,000 lbs. of signal engineering drawings that are about to crush my office, they are called "hot-box detectors" and "dragging-equipment detectors" and so forth. They might be co-located in the field (like 50 feet apart) and report their output on the same radio channel but they are very much different sets of equipment that do different things. The term "defect detector" is a category, like "fruit" is a category for apples, oranges, and strawberries. RWM
On the NS all the functions of the detector is in on box and when the detector goes off it say "defect detector" milepost xx defect hotbox or dragging equipment etc.
wabash1 Railway Man BNSFwatcher"Hot Box scanners", with the advent of universal roller bearings on trains, is kind of a misnomer. They are now called "Defect Detectors". Their capabilities range from detecting hot journals, broken wheels, and dragging equipment. Some do all three, plus other services. Some are sophisticated, some just mechanical devices. They can radio info to the train crew and dispatcher. Of course, the axle count would be off in a FL-9 or a FM/CLC "Consolidation" was the power! Har! I'm not the expert, and will like to hear more about this subject. BTW, the railroads frown upon anyone going near them! Hays Really? On the 5,000 lbs. of signal engineering drawings that are about to crush my office, they are called "hot-box detectors" and "dragging-equipment detectors" and so forth. They might be co-located in the field (like 50 feet apart) and report their output on the same radio channel but they are very much different sets of equipment that do different things. The term "defect detector" is a category, like "fruit" is a category for apples, oranges, and strawberries. RWM On the NS all the functions of the detector is in on box and when the detector goes off it say "defect detector" milepost xx defect hotbox or dragging equipment etc.
Example (on the CN):http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7McOTSRWGM
Yes, one radio transmitter. Sometimes even one instrument house. But two different detectors.
Now I guess people are going to tell me that since sometimes the signal department puts grade-crossing signal equipment and wayside signal equipment into the same house, we should quit using the terms grade-crossing signals and wayside signals, and just say "we now have one kind of signal called "signal" that does everything all at once."
Railway Man Yes, one radio transmitter. Sometimes even one instrument house. But two different detectors. Now I guess people are going to tell me that since sometimes the signal department puts grade-crossing signal equipment and wayside signal equipment into the same house, we should quit using the terms grade-crossing signals and wayside signals, and just say "we now have one kind of signal called "signal" that does everything all at once." RWM
I am not going to argue with you In the hut is several items and out at the track is usually a plate across the gauge and on the outside of the rail is a senser to read tempature of the wheel. and on some there is a scanner, thats it. now my friend is the maintainer and even though i did not get into detail about the things i was looking at, there was not as much equipment there. now if you say there is several differant detectors there then fine, Im only going on what i saw and what i hear when i cross the things. and you may be right ( hold on as you dont hear this that often) I dont really know, Just making a observation. What i thought i was looking at was several systems tied into one brain and transmitted over a radio.
Two questions come to mind from this discussion. First one is whether the TempilStik® is still a common tool in somebody's kit in the cab? It would seem so, even though the detectors seem to be pretty specific on the axle count.
Second question is whether suppliers are going to a FLIR (forward-looking infra-red) camera approach coupled with image analysis SW to detect hot wheels and bearings. That seems to be very doable approach these days, so I would expect that approach to at least be out there.
As I say, a couple of questions that came to mind reading this thread.
Yes we still carry TempilStiks. Mine hasn't been out of my grip in years though.
How about this Defect that starts at the 2:06 Mark in this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3M0ZMUZkOa4.
MP173 Falcon:That is great stuff. How wide spread are these new generation of detectors? Are each trains identification coded, forgive my basic non technical discussion, but similar to bar coding to account for each train's reading as it is read by subsequent scanners? Otherwise, how would the system account for trains overtaking other trains, etc. (You gotta realize that i am pretty slow on the technical side here). This sure is quite a jump from the old days at Porter Tower, when the HBD east of town would print out on a graph the temps of the bearings and the operator would visually interprete the info. What is next? How far is the industry from having on line sensors on the bearings. Retailers are doing something similar to this determining the distribution of product into geographic areas. Granted the technology for reading temperature and transmitting info is considerably more advanced....but is that on the drawing board, or rather the screen at this time?Ed
Falcon:That is great stuff. How wide spread are these new generation of detectors?
Are each trains identification coded, forgive my basic non technical discussion, but similar to bar coding to account for each train's reading as it is read by subsequent scanners? Otherwise, how would the system account for trains overtaking other trains, etc. (You gotta realize that i am pretty slow on the technical side here).
This sure is quite a jump from the old days at Porter Tower, when the HBD east of town would print out on a graph the temps of the bearings and the operator would visually interprete the info.
What is next? How far is the industry from having on line sensors on the bearings. Retailers are doing something similar to this determining the distribution of product into geographic areas. Granted the technology for reading temperature and transmitting info is considerably more advanced....but is that on the drawing board, or rather the screen at this time?Ed
I apologize for not responding sooner. For a variety of reasons, I've been off the forums for a few weeks. That, of course, has an unintended benefit in that, given the length of posts I sometimes write, it probably made a total crash of the internet system less likely.
Turning to your question, my understanding is that "networked" detectors are becoming quite common - much of UP, for example, has them. I'm told the way they work is that, when a train passes a detector, the system will compute an average bearing temperature for the train, and then identify bearings on the train that are producing readings above that average (of course, if a bearing is above the critical temperature, it will trigger a warning, but we're talking about bearings that aren't yet that hot). Based on the readings of the following detectors, the system will then determine whether the temperature of any of the target bearings is increasing beyond a predetermined rate. If it is, it will trigger an alarm, even if the bearing in question is still below the critical level.
I'm not a "techie", but I suspect that detectors mounted on the bearings is something you won't see much of until electronic braking becomes common.
Sorry to interrupt your conversation with a non-technical question, but your group is the first I have found that even know what a hot box detector is,
I do (unfortunately) because of a misguided purchase at a freight auction. As a result, I now own a General Electric MicroScan IR infra-red hot bearing scanner. After days of googling and countless phone calls I am beginning to think this hi-tech gadget has almost no resale value on the open market.
So I put it to you, my new-found expert panel, if you had one of these new in the crate from GE, how would you go about selling it?
PS: I won't be offended if you flag this posting. I am just desperate for knowledge and guidance.
My sympathies on not being an educated purchaser. Outside of the rail industry, I can't think of many users of such equipment....you might survey Short Line rail companies in your area and see if they may need the equipment.....either that or develop a alternative use for it yourself.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Those 'red-X' photo boxes messed up the format here some . . .
Have you tried selling it back to GE ? (Yeah, you probably have.)
OK, then - aside from BaltACD's sensible suggestion - how about one of the 3 colleges/ universities with railroad engineering programs, and/ or the railroad trade schools in Modoc and Lincoln Park, if I recall correctly ? Or perhaps DeVry University in Chicago and Phoenix, which specializes in electronics ? Or a community college program with the same orientation, especially in a rail-influenced community ?
You could always try Ebay. Some railfans will buy anything...
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
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