How do you determine train symbols in the field?

[GN_Fan]

I've been around trains quite a bit, but one thing that I've always wondered about.  Most trains on the UP or BNSF use symbols to denote origin-destination, but I've always heared them referred to as UP 5739west, or something like that.  But a lot of fans also state the symbol when denoting atrain, and that leaves me totally baffaloed.  How do you determine the origin-destination and therefore the symbol of the train? 

[CopCarSS]

I'm curious about this as well. Very rarely I'll hear symbols given on the radio on the Brush Sub, but almost never on any of the other subs out this way.

[dwil89]

On NS and CSX, crews call signal indications, and usually call their symbol as well, though some crews just call the lead engine number instead.

[bajadog]

The train symbol is origin/destination driven and used by business groups and non-operating folks to identify trains.  On the operating side, engine number and direction identify the trains.  Track warrants are issued to, "BNSF 6809 West" and this is the identification used when trains meet, m/w forces work, or any other operating situation.  The symbols mean nothing in the field, as the engines have their numbers painted on and number boards lit.

[zugmann]

bajadog

The train symbol is origin/destination driven and used by business groups and non-operating folks to identify trains.  On the operating side, engine number and direction identify the trains.  Track warrants are issued to, "BNSF 6809 West" and this is the identification used when trains meet, m/w forces work, or any other operating situation.  The symbols mean nothing in the field, as the engines have their numbers painted on and number boards lit.

 

Operating folkd use the train symbol as well.  Most dispatchers usually use both symbol and engine number to make intial conact on the radio, then will just use one or the other.  The problem is that it is possible to get 2 trains with the same symbol* on the same division or in the same yard.  I've had times when I was departing with a train of one symbol, that arrived teh night before, and the new inbound train from today (with the same symbol) was just coming into the yard at the same time.  

*- the symbols are not exactly the same, as there isa nomenclature that distinguishes them from day to day.  For example:  12VH611 is train 12v on devision/line segment 6, of the 11th day, while 12Vh612 is 12v on division/line segment 6, of the 12th day.  But on the radio, they both are "12V". 

  I was taught to use the engine number whenever possible on the radio.  Clears up the confusion. Of course for meets or MOW personnel, the engine numbers is always preferred... for reasons   bajadog explained above.

[bajadog]

When freight train symbols were numeric ( No. 139) this train dispatcher would use both symbols and engine numbers more or less interchangably except for issuing authority, but for the reason stated above by Zug, and the fact the present symbols are so cumberson (imagine calling HEVEBAR112 on the radio 5 or 6 times), at least in the track warrant world, it's only the engine number that identifies the train.

[jeffhergert]

When approaching a yard where we have work to do, we'll sometimes call just using the symbol/date.  They may or may not recognize UP 1234 right away, but they will recognize MPRCB (or whatever the train is) and what it needs to do.

Sometimes the dispatchers may not have updated info about an engine change.  After calling the engine designation a few times, they'll call for the symbol.  If you call them and they don't recognize the engine number they'll ask what your symbol is.

Some of our crew change locations (where I work anyway) have recently gotten display screens that show portions of what the dispatcher sees on his/her CTC display.  The trains on there show up as symbols.   

The engine number may be required for main track authorization, but symbols do get used a lot.

Jeff

[tree68]

I hear both on CSX here in my area.

I think sometimes it's just as easy to call the symbol here for "informal" comms, since there are only a few trains on a normal basis.  The locals usually have the same power on a daily basis (maintenance changeouts notwithstanding) but the two regular through trains are bound to have just about anything on the point.

"Official" communications (EC-1's) always include the lead engine number.

As noted, I've also noted two of the same symbol in the area at the same time.  Of course, CSX symbols include the start date (ie, Q123-19), so it's a little easier to tell them apart.

[CShaveRR]

Sometimes it's just plain experience.

I gave the possible train identities in my most recent railfan report (in the Trackside Lounge), based purely on the type of cars I saw in the train. It was a lot of AGP tank cars and covered hoppers that led me to believe that the one train was MDMPR, and a good-sized block of reefers behind the power that suggested that QNPSKP might be the identity of the other. The experience comes partly from working with these cars all the time, but I honestly don't think that everyone who works at my job can do that. However, if you see a variety of freight trains, and take a good look at the cars they're hauling, you might see some patterns develop. Than a scanner, or a friendly railroader, might be able and willing to fill in the blanks for you.

EDIT: I just checked, using resources that I have available as a railroader. I was correct about the MDMPR, but not correct about QNPSKP. The second train was MNPPRB, and the reefers were empties (evidently picked up at Rochelle).

[CShaveRR]

Sometimes it's just plain experience.

And you'd think that experience would teach me to catch my duplicate posts before they can no longer be deleted!

[beaulieu]

The best spot to get the whole symbol is when a train departs a major yard where it has been worked on and it will call the Dispatcher to give them the new train information for the train sheet something like this

"CP River Dispatcher this is CP 282 out of St. Paul Yard at 1307, Lead unit is SOO 6034, we have 64 loads, 22 empties 7700 tons and 5350ft. Our Marker is CPT 16155 Over"

Also on CP's US lines at least train crews will normally use the train symbol to acknowledge Hotbox Detectors.

"CP 199 clear of the Detector Milepost 254.0 Track 2, No Defects"

[Bob-Fryml]

Please remember too that a full train symbol includes the calendar day for which the train was authorized out of its initial terminal. 

EXAMPLE:  Union Pacific may authorize an MNPRV-18 (Manifest, North Platte, Nebr. to Roseville, Calif.) to be built at North Platte and depart on the 18th calendar day of the month.  Once that train (freight cars + locomotive) is locked into the computer system, whether it leaves North Platte on the 18th, the 19th (sometime after 0001 on the 19th), or the 20th (after the world-class blizzard in western Nebraska subsides), it's still the MNPRV-18.

Building from the above example, the reason the date is so important is this:  Any number of MNPRV's could exist and be running westbound simultaneously.  On the 18th @ 2359 MST, the MNPRV-18 may be departing North Platte.  Meanwhile the MNPRV-17 is rolling westward through Weber Canyon, Utah; the MNPRV-16 is somewhere around Winnemucca, Nev.; and the MNPRV-15 has just parked itself in a receiving yard track at Roseville.  The dates attached to each alpha portion of the train symbol is what differentiates these trains.

 

[ericsp]

Back when public traces were available for UP and BNSF, I used those to find train symbols. I can still recognize some trains by the cars on them.