I am interested in information that anyone might have on the CQ&Q line into Saint Louis on the Illinois side. I grew up about 10 miles away from Toland, which is where the CQ&Q/now-BNSF line uses the UP's NYC line to get into Saint Louis.
It is my understanding that the CB&Q had its own line that went into Saint Louis on the Illinois side fron the north:(1) Do you know when this line was abandoned?
(2) Any idea what traffic was like on the line? When was passenger service discontinued?
(3) Most, importantly, where did it come into Saint Louis? It appears to have had to come in somewhere between Alton and Edwardsville. However, despite my father living relatively near this area and being fairly knowledgeable about local rail patterns, he does not recall the line.
(4) Are any remnants of the line remaining?
When I go home for Christmas, I would kind of like to go exploring and see if I can find any remnants of the line.
Thanks in advance,
Gabe
Rockford, Rock Island & St. Louis R.R.?
http://research.nprha.org/NP%20Track%20Segmenats%20of%20BNSF/BNSF%20Track%20Segmants%20Version%209.pdf
Check out page 24 of the link. It looks like early 1980's abandonment from E. Alton to Whitehall, IL. 1910 Official Railway Guide at some web sites would contain passenger schedules and stops, but a long download.
According to a 1964 Official Guide Table 27 of the CB&Q timetable shows that the CB&Q had trackage between Galesburg Illinois and St Louis. At Concord Illinois the line split, one going to St Louis the other to Paducah Kentucky via Centralia Illinois. Concord Illinois is located on a county road off of Illinois highway 104 northwest of Jacksonville Illinois.The stations from St Louis north include East Alton 21 miles from St Louis; then Brighton and Medora Illlinois before heading north towards Concord. The CB&Q line might have paralleled Illinois Highway 111. You might want to check it out. Sorry I couldn't help you more.
State Departments of Transportation came into being roughly 40 years ago. Unlike oil company highway maps, State D. O. T. maps showed rail lines in relation to roads. Most of the early ones on paper have been discarded, or are succumbing to acid in their paper.
For historical reference, an online library of these maps would be interesting.
Gabe, Steam Powered Video maps shows a CBQ line from Beardstown thru Whitehall, Greenfield, Medora, Brighton, and Woods to East Alton Junction with a connection to the Big Four line that went to Litchfield.
Their maps also shows there was a line west from East Alton Junction running parallel to the old C&A line, thru Alton, to Alton Junction where it crossed the C&A and crossed the Mississippi River into Missouri to West Alton Junction.
At West Alton Junction, the CB&Q had a joint (MKT) line west to Old Monroe and a joint line south that crossed the Missouri River on the 'Bellefontaine Bridge' and continued south to their North St.Louis yard. It continued south and appears to terminate at the North Market St. yard just south of the McKinley bridge.
Hope this helps.
Art
Gabe:My 1968 IDOT "Official Highway Map" (complete with Otto Kerner on the cover) shows the CBQ line diverging from the Paducah line at Concord, passing thru Chapin, Riggstown (west of Jacksonville), Winchester, Alsey Barrow, West Roodhouse and into White Hall. From there it struck a SE chord to Greenfield and paralleled US 67 (on west side) into Alton.
At that point it disappears into the metrosprawl of East St. Louis.
My 1972 Moody's has no info on the line (by then it was BN). I should have a 1950's Moodys in a couple of weeks, which wont help out now.
My 1941 Official Guide shows this route as the routing for St. Louis-Galesburg-Rock Island-Twin Cities trains 51/52 and 47/48.
For instance, one could board train 47 in St. Louis at 805am and arrive in Beardstown at 1140, Galesburg at 305pm (covering the 208 miles in 7 hours or 29.7 mph with 31 stops!), Rock Island at 725 pm after a 2:30 layover in Galesburg, and final arrival in Minneapolis the next morning at 755am.
Total mileage for the trip was 615 miles for about 25.6mph.
I wonder...how many people would make the St. Louis Minneapolis trip? Wow, what a ride.
Let me know if you want any other info.
Ed
Gabe,
The BN abandoned the line from Concord to White Hall in 1983, and East Alton to White Hall was abandoned in 1980 according to official BNSF documents. I suspect it was a victim of route rationalization by the BN- since for the added cost of about another 30 miles of trackage rights, they could abandon an entire subdivision that was lightly operated.
The line ran into East Alton where it got on the New York Central (old main line routing prior to 1904) and operated via 19 miles of trackage rights to East St. Louis. There used to be a spot in East Alton on the east side of the ILL 3 - ILL 140 interchange where the BN went under ILL 140 where you could see the grade from the 140 bridge- I would guess it's a lot more overgrown now than what I recall from 20 years ago. If you have a very sharp eye, go south on ILL 3 from the 140 interchange, and just before you go under the ex-GMO overpass, look to your east (left) and you should see the abandoned grade's bridge cross over a small creek before going into East Alton. The tracks then jogged over and ran parallel to the ex-GMO and linked up with the NYC just north of where the ex-ICG "bubble dome" car shop is located in Wood River. Aside from that little bit- I'm not sure if there is much left seeing that is accessible in the area.
The connection you speak of near Livingston, IL where the BN (ex-CBQ main to Paducah) crossed the UP (ex-NYC) was called Toland on the BN and Walsh on the UP. Tolono is the town south of Champaign where the IC's main line crosses the NS (ex-WAB) main line.
As for train frequency I can say by the time I was old enough to remember the BN trains that ran in the late 80s on the UP from Walsh/Toland to Madison (TRRA)- they had a daily "Madison Turn" that ran from Galesburg to Madison and back, and the occasional ore and grain extras. Keep in mind also that the BN had another ex-CBQ line on the other side of the Mississippi- both of which were connected via the line that ran between East Alton, IL and West Alton, MO and over the swing span over the river in Alton proper.
Hope that helps you a little on your quest!
I just want to thank everyone for their incredible help. IT is always interesting to be educated about a line in your back yard that you never knew existed--I was born in 1975, and the line would have been pulled out before I could have any memory of it.
My only remaining question is does anyone know what the local traffic was line on the now-abandoned line between 1975 and 1983. I always find learning about the swansong of a line to be one of the more interesting things. Were there trains on the line in 1980? I am assuming BN used Toland--thanks for the clarification Nordique--well before 1980?
Thanks,
I don't imagine there would have been much on the line by 1980 besides perhaps a local that handled remaining customers online. The connection at Toland/Walsh looks to have been in use by at least as early as 1977 according to topographic maps (as per the 1974 map -it was not built yet).
MP 173 brought up Twin Cities St Louis trains. There was the all Burlington routing through Galesburg and Savanna Illinois which he explained. I have heard that Burlington may have run passenger extras between The Twin Cities Savanna and Galesburg and maybe points south like St Louis up through the early sixties; but was usually freight only.Were the trains military mains taking Army recruits to basic trainning at Fort Leonard Wood Missouri ? Burlington did operate a bus service between the Quad Cities and Savanna to connect to both the Empire Builder and the Afternoon Zephyr westbound and the Morning Zephyr eastbound, operated by Scenic Stage Lines.
The Burlington and The Rock Island did operate a joint service between St Louis and Minneapolis. The Burlington operated the train between St Louis and Burlington Iowa via Hannibal Missouri.then Rock Island would operate the train from Burlington Iowa to the Twin Cities via Cedar Rapids and Waterloo Iowa. Train was an overnight operation and in the 1960's operated with one coach and one sleeper until 1962 when the sleeper came off. The train at one time was called the Zephyr Rocket.
As Aricat says above, the Rock Island handled the trains beywond Burlington. I Have a passenger timetable - May/Oct. 1962 - that shows the Zephyr-Rocket still in sevice, but local service is only from St.Louis up to W.Quincy station.
Freight service only thru E. Alton, IL, but the station list goes from St. Louis to Rock Island.
The line from Old Monroe to Mexico is freight only (now ripped up I believe); strangely the trackage rights from Mexico to K.C. via the Alton are still shown.
The 1910 Official Guide shows the CB&Q running passenger service between St. Louis and St. Paul over its own route and in conjunction with the Rock Island through Burlington, IA. Between St. Louis and Rock Island via CB&Q, there was the option of through Galesburg, IL and also Monmouth, IL.
The Zephyr Rocket streamliner was an up grade of conventional equipment service. The Zephyr Rocket entered service just prior to WWII. In the 1960's, it was heavy with mail and express cars. This service was discontinued when mail contracts were dropped.
Rock Island trackage from Burlington, IA to Cedar Rapids, IA was abandon when the Rock Island went bankrupt in the early 1980's.
Concerning freight today, does any St. Louis to Galesburg go via West Quincy, MO?
I am interested in the CB&Q Railroad Line, that went from St. Louis to East St. Louis, East Alton, Brighton, Medora, Greenfield, White Hall and on to Beardstown, IL. In answer to your questions, the Line was abamdoned in 1980 . The last passenger train went through Medora in 1961. I emailed BNSF and as I recall I think it was Steve Fosberg who answered, he said the CB&Q used the the NYC or Union Pacific Tracks there at Toland, I think he called it Train Crossing. I enjoy histoey about this CB&Q Line, inthe 1940s I watched the trains on this Line go by my farm daily just south of Medora, IL.
Sincerely,
Harold
Glen Carbon, IL
aricat Were the trains military mains taking Army recruits to basic trainning at Fort Leonard Wood Missouri ?
Were the trains military mains taking Army recruits to basic trainning at Fort Leonard Wood Missouri ?
When I was drafted into the U.S. Army in July 1960, our group from Pinckneyville, Illinois, and surrounding towns were ticketed on an Illinois Central passenger train at DuQuoin for the journey to the Saint Louis, Missouri Recruiting Main Station for processing.
From Saint Louis to Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri for basic training, we were taken on a Greyhound Bus. I don't know if any military trains were still in use at Fort Leonard Wood back then.
I have a Pentrex DVD entitled, "Classic Saint Louis Railroading" which covers the late 1940's through the 1970's. Railroads that entered Saint Louis as they appear in the video were the Alton & Southern; Chicago & Eastern Illinois; Chicago & North Western; Chicago, Burlington & Quincy; Cotton Belt; Southern Pacific; Frisco; Gulf, Mobile & Ohio; Illinois Central; Louisville & Nashville; Manufacturer's Railway; Missouri-Kansas-Texas; Missouri Pacific; New York Central; Norfolk & Western; Wabash; Nickel Plate; Penn Central; Pennsylvania; Terminal Railroad Association; and early Amtrak.
When I started this e-mail I made mistake. I meant CB&Q Railroad, not CQ&Q.
To Gabe: In the 1940s I watched the trains on the CB&Q Railroad Line from St. Louis, to East St. Louis, East Alton, Brighton, Medora, Greenfield, White Hall and on to Beardstown, IL that went by my fathers farm daily south of Medora. I enjoy Railroad History, especially about this Line.
Harold W. Piggott
Glen Carbon, IL.
During the 1940s i lived on my father"s farm south of Medora, IL and watched the trains on the CB&Q Railroad go by his farm daily, from St. Louis to Beardstown, IL.As I recall the tracks on this Line were taken up in the early 1980s. I enjoy Railroad History, especially about this Line.
Brock
I found your post after doing a Google search on the E. St. Louis - Beardstown sub. My wife grew up south east of Medora in the 60's and early 70's. Unfortunately she doesn't remember much of the trains.
I am currently modeling the Medora area in N-scale.
I always interesting in finding people who are knowledgable of the area.
Jim
Gurnee, IL
I knew most ot people aroud the Medora area. what was yourwife's madin name?
To Brock,
Let me know your e-mail so we can carry on outside of the forum.
mailto: k9se@comcast.net
I knew most of the peoplr in the Medora area. what was your wife's madian name?
Have received some of the e-mails I sent?
Harold W. piggott
My e-mail address is: harold.piggott@yahoo.com
As I recall this Line was closed in1980 and there are areas south of Medora, that show where the tracks were.
The line abandoned from East Alton to WhiteHall, IL (almost Roodhouse) in 12/79; 45.7 Miles; ICC Finance Docket AB 6 - 75(F)
Concord to Whitehall (27.6 miles) went away in Sept, 1982 ( ICC Docket AB 6 (127)) where it joined the Beardstown Sub. at Concord.
BNSF still has a milepost equation at Concord, IL because of that set of abandonments (MP 0.09 Southward = MP 102.09 Northward, all mileposts increase southward, Bushnell to Paducah, KY)
You mentioned page 24 of the link. How do I find this page? isit in the internet or in a book?
Harold Piggott
e-mail: harold.piggott@yahoo.com
I have really drawn some interest into this thread after I noticed some abandoned rails left in the pavement in West Alton, Mo while delivering some freight there. I then realized it was the reminants of the CB&Q, and what I thought was just another levee on the west side of 67 before the Mississippi bridge was the reminants of the line that crossed the river on the swing bridge (that no longer exists). Does anyone have a semi-detailed map of the rails on the Alton, IL side of the bridge? Also, am I correct in that the CB&Q became rolled into BN? If so, did the CB&Q cross the Wood River Creek on the abandoned ( but still existant) bridge on the North Northwest side of the Olin/Winchester plant and then continue Northish through what is now a rock quarry? Sorry for the such detailed questioning.
On another side note, were there ever rails further upstream the Mississippi River along route 100 than there is presently? Alton has an amazing rail history that I am slowly discovering.
bkpigs,
I don't have a lot of answers at my fingertips. As I recall, the bridge over the Mississippi at Alton was owned by separate entity in which, I believe, the CB&Q had a stake. Check http://www.yesteryeardepot.com/misilbb.htm
The CB&Q did head north over the existing bridge up to Brighton and beyond.
I have a number of historic topo maps and aerial pictures of the CB&Q Beardstown - E. St. Louis subdivision. Interested parties should contact me directly.
k9se"at"comcast.net (replace "at" with @, of course.)
If my memory serves me right, the bridge at Alton was owned by the Missouri & Illinois Bridge & Belt, a most delightful name.
K9SE Brock I found your post after doing a Google search on the E. St. Louis - Beardstown sub. My wife grew up south east of Medora in the 60's and early 70's. Unfortunately she doesn't remember much of the trains. I am currently modeling the Medora area in N-scale. I always interesting in finding people who are knowledgable of the area. Jim Gurnee, IL
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