In the latest issue of The Post (vol. 10, issue 4), published by the Penn Central Railroad Historical Society, the edited transcript of the "Cassatt Conference" held on April 11, 1973 is presented. Apparently the transcript is a very rare document (only 56 copies were ever produced)
The conference was held in a private hunting lodge in Cassatt, NM to try to work-out a means to deal with the Penn Central mess and was attended by several high-level governmental leaders including a member of the Nixon administration and a US senator, a general chairman of a RR employees union, management consultants, and the president of some major western railroad.
In the reprinted contents, The Post has changed the names of the participants and some of their titles. The name of the "mystery" railroad given is the "Western & Southern Railway" (since The Post didn't want to provide the real railroad name in order to obscure the president's real name).
In particular, the conference was held to see what, if anything, the "W&S" could contribute to help solve the massive problems facing northeastern railroads at the time, with PC being obviously the biggest mess of all.
I've read through the transcript and I was rather surprised to learn that the Nixon administration favored the creation of three privately-owned "national lines" which I believe would be transcontinental lines.
One of these lines would have been essentially a "W&S"/PC merger arranged by the federal government through a rather complex process, and which was estimated roughly to put "W&S" on the hook for $1.4 billion obligation to pay back the US Treasury.
Needless to say the "W&S" president didn't like that idea.
If anyone is familiar with the PC Cassatt Conference details, was it the Union Pacific that was the "W&S"?
Well ! That's certainly most interesting - first I've ever heard of it. Thanks for the post and the enlightenment.
But what the heck is up with the secrecy and 'cloak-and-dagger' bit by the PCRHS' The Post staff, though ? This isn't national security, where we might be legitimately concerned about inadvertently disclosing of compromising sources and means and methods, etc. Nor is it the Warren Commission's Kennedy Assassination files - I believe those will be opened in another 4 years or so anyway. Even the Federal Reserve Bank - the 'Fed' - releases its Open Markets Committee minutes on interest rate deliberations within a month or two after it meets, most times - sometimes sooner. I wonder if a Freedom Of Information Act = 'FOIA' request to the National Archives would yield either an unedited transcript, and/ or the identity of who was there ?
In any event, I doubt if it was the UP. At first, I'm inclined to think it was the Norfolk & Western = 'west and south' of the PC, as N&W was always interested in what was going on around it, and already had a relationship with PC - the N&W had been substantially owned by the PRR for a time, if I recall corrrectly.
But if it was truly a 'western' railroad - I still doubt if it was either UP, or the SP - neither one had a direct connection with a major PC line, so how could they have effectively merged with it, unless yet another railroad contributed or granted access over one of its lines ?
Possibly BN - but although it physically connected with PC at Chicago, and maybe St. Louis (I think ?), they did not have much else in common.
Which leaves AT&SF and its then-President, John S. Reed - a pretty smart guy, too. It already had the Kankakee Belt connection with PC, as well as in Chicago itself. Further, the Santa Fe and the NYC had collaborated just afew years before on the 'Super C' high-speed piggyback train test runs.
I wonder if diningcar or mudchicken - both alumni of "Chico's Road" - will be able to confirm or elaborate on any of this ?
- Paul North.
I agree with Mr. North's assessment -- why so much secrecy since this is now so far in the past that it couldn't possibly have an effect on anyone who was involved.
As a military intelligence retiree, I can assure you that even the military doesn't keep information secret that long. The conference was 36 years ago, and military secrets remain classified no more than 10 years.
cacole I agree with Mr. North's assessment -- why so much secrecy since this is now so far in the past that it couldn't possibly have an effect on anyone who was involved. As a military intelligence retiree, I can assure you that even the military doesn't keep information secret that long. The conference was 36 years ago, and military secrets remain classified no more than 10 years.
I'm as befuddled as you guys are on the secrecy deal. Reading the Foreward of the article, the author (Mr. Phil Anderson) states that, "A copy of the transcript was obtained without the knowledge of the conference participants". That doesn't explain much but I'd have to believe there's some legal considerations involved.
On the subject of N&W being the mysterious "W&S", both N&W and the Chessie System are referred-to by name in the article as potential buyers of a broken-up PC. Also, the article describes "W&S" as, "... a railroad outside the East".
You fellows might be very interested in reading the article if you can obtain a copy of The Post. As a sustaining member I can (at least I think I can) get a complimentary copy, but I'd have to also needle you for a membership as part of my duties as a PCRRHS member. It's really a very nice publication and I've never got an issue that I haven't found one or two articles I've enjoyed immensely (www.pcrrhs.org).
The secrecy is not all surprising considering the government was involved and the era in which it occurred. For most, the subject would be considered dull. Perhaps the reason nobody pursued obtaining and making public the record.
The bankruptcy of railroads was spreading beyond the N. E. in 1973. Where would the sick west of Chicago come in on this? The Rock Island, the Milwaukee and the not overly healthy Chicago & Northwestern come to mind.
The Milwaukee reached the west coast. The other two could have been used to stitch together a network.
It is interesting three national transcontinental systems are mentioned. Now, the speculation runs to two such systems when the dust settles.
As early as 1964 Stuart Saunders was intriqued with the idea of America's railroads becomming the hub of integrated national transportation systems. This included pipelines, trucks, ships, airlines and railroads. As the Penn Central deterioration was underway this concept was always on their mind. Saunders, in 1964, felt it was also a way to save the PRR. (They were considering withdrawing from the NYC merger as they were optimistic about the future, this was shortlived and the gov't rejected such a move anyway.)
Western railroads were keeping an eye on the east as they knew their day would come and decisions would have to be made.
During his discussions in 1964 and 65 with various levels his management the major railroads that were mention were the CN and SP, the SP in particular because they were already into trucks and pipelines with their railroad. Other transportation systems would be integrated and Saunders was convinced that a day would come that this national concept would develop. (Eventually so did Nixon's administration) How many of such systems was never discussed but three would make sense. So I will throw this out was it possible that the W&S for illustration purposes was the SP.
Paul:Minor point to your comment about SP not connecting to a "major PC line"...their Cotton Belt did connect with PC at East St. Louis and there were run thru trains with SP power.
In fact, as I am typing this, I am looking at a photo shot at Mattoon, Il in 1975 of a WB Penn Central freight with an SP UBoat 8670.
Sadly, the PC line thru Mattoon (ex NYC) is long gone).
ed
I might speculate that the mystery railroad was Rock Island and Nixon's people had decided that RI would be broken up.They may have wanted UP to acquire the Chicago-Omaha main line as a precursor to the creation of Conrail. I believe that Rock Island did a large amount of interchange with the former New York Central. They might have figured that we will deal with both the Rock Island and the PC at the same time.They might have proposed that the Rock Island Omaha to Chicago main become UP's primary connection to the east.The Government may also have wanted to discuss the dismemberment of the Rock Island and who would get what; and a creation of a super granger railroad in the midwest who would compete with Burlington Northern. That railroad might include all of Milwaukee, C&NW and Iowa lines of the Rock Island. Nixon would have wanted some competition so no monopoly would have been created. The three transcontinental systems might have been Milwaukee Road or whatever the super granger would have been known as; BN and UP. Santa Fe and Southern Pacific may not have been envolved in any discussion.
aricat I might speculate that the mystery railroad was Rock Island and Nixon's people had decided that RI would be broken up.They may have wanted UP to acquire the Chicago-Omaha main line as a precursor to the creation of Conrail. I believe that Rock Island did a large amount of interchange with the former New York Central. They might have figured that we will deal with both the Rock Island and the PC at the same time.They might have proposed that the Rock Island Omaha to Chicago main become UP's primary connection to the east.The Government may also have wanted to discuss the dismemberment of the Rock Island and who would get what; and a creation of a super granger railroad in the midwest who would compete with Burlington Northern. That railroad might include all of Milwaukee, C&NW and Iowa lines of the Rock Island. Nixon would have wanted some competition so no monopoly would have been created. The three transcontinental systems might have been Milwaukee Road or whatever the super granger would have been known as; BN and UP. Santa Fe and Southern Pacific may not have been envolved in any discussion.
I seem to recall reading about someone in the government/ICC wanting to use the UP-RI merger case to redraw the railroad map into a few railroads. It never went anywhere and I can't recall who was supposed to take over who. Maybe some one else remembers hearing this too. I can't look around for it at the moment, I'm just got called to go to Clinton.
Jeff
WIAR In the reprinted contents, The Post has changed the names of the participants and some of their titles. The name of the "mystery" railroad given is the "Western & Southern Railway" (since The Post didn't want to provide the real railroad name in order to obscure the president's real name). In particular, the conference was held to see what, if anything, the "W&S" could contribute to help solve the massive problems facing northeastern railroads at the time, with PC being obviously the biggest mess of all. I've read through the transcript and I was rather surprised to learn that the Nixon administration favored the creation of three privately-owned "national lines" which I believe would be transcontinental lines. One of these lines would have been essentially a "W&S"/PC merger arranged by the federal government through a rather complex process, and which was estimated roughly to put "W&S" on the hook for $1.4 billion obligation to pay back the US Treasury. Needless to say the "W&S" president didn't like that idea. If anyone is familiar with the PC Cassatt Conference details, was it the Union Pacific that was the "W&S"?
The W&S could have been the UP. John Kenefick was UP's president in 1973. Other possibilities could be John Reed and the Santa Fe and Ben Biaggini at the SP. The Burlington Northern was the other big western player in the West, but wouldn't likely be called the Western & Southern.
Of the three noted above, only Kenefick is still alive, now 88 or 89 years old.
I highly doubt that the Rock Island was in on the discussions. In casting about for non-government solutions to the Penn Central, the White House, USDOT and Congressional leaders were looking for a railroad with deep pockets. That wouldn't be the Rock. By 1973 they didn't even have any pockets.
"We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics
jeatonThe W&S could have been the UP. John Kenefick was UP's president in 1973. Other possibilities could be John Reed and the Santa Fe and Ben Biaggini at the SP. The Burlington Northern was the other big western player in the West, but wouldn't likely be called the Western & Southern. I highly doubt that the Rock Island was in on the discussions. In casting about for non-government solutions to the Penn Central, the White House, USDOT and Congressional leaders were looking for a railroad with deep pockets. That wouldn't be the Rock. By 1973 they didn't even have any pockets.
Couldn't we rule both UP and SP out, as their merger application for the Rock Island was just wrapping up? ATSF seems like the most likely railroad to me.
I wouldn't completely rule out the Santa Fe. It is just that John Reed, who was Santa Fe president in 1973, passed away in March, 2008.
Not having read the article, I only have the vaguest notion as to why the author would disguise the name of the railroad. If none of the participants in the conference were named, perhaps the author, the publication's editors and the PC Historical Society had concerns about possible repercussions from naming the participants. If the intent was to not name participants who are still alive, then the Santa Fe and SP are out because both Reed and SP's Biaggini are deceased.
I am not surprised by the outcome of the conference. By that time the dire condition of the PC was well understood by most railroad presidents and they knew that a $billion or so in a government loan was not going to "solve" the problem. As I recall, it took $6 or 7 billion in government funds before Conrail started to get a positive cash flow. Had either of the three western lines that might been at the conference taken up the offer, we might now have a transcontinental hiking trail.
At any rate it is an part of the history of the era. Even though the current article does not reveal all the details. I am sure that interested historians appreciate that the transcript is preserved for possible future reference.
I decided to pull out my copy of "The Men Who Loved Trains" and see what clues that might hold. Chapter 16 correlates to the period surrounding this conference, January, 1973 to January 1974.
No mention is made in the text of any conference at Cassartt, NM. Throughout this chapter only one western railroad is discussed, Union Pacific with chairman Frank Barnett and vice president for law William McDonald. It is evident that during 1973, Union Pacific was most concerned with what was happening to Penn Central and the rest of the northeast railroads.
Those of you that have the book should read chapter 16.
Mike
One wonders if among the "governmental leaders" were representatives of the Interstate Commerce Commission. That body had a lot to say about any plan being implemented.
The trend toward deregulation was building in 1973. Would the I. C. C. be considered part of the solution, or part of the problem to be left out while a strategy to circumvent any I. C. C. objections was hammered out?
I rather doubt that the ICC could legally participate in such a meeting, as their involvement in any matter really had to be on the record. Under the laws in effect at the time, they would have final say on any changes in railroad ownership or control, but by 1973, many recognized that as part of the problem. If it wasn't discussed at the meeting (I haven't seen the article), it was probably understood that some modification of the IC Act or new law would be necessary to rapidly implement any "rescue" plan.
MJChittick's observation is most astute. The hypothetical Western & Southern was most definitely the then-Union Pacific.
At the time, there were several railroads that could be considered Western and Southern.
Certainly Union Pacific and Santa Fe, but don't forget Southern Pacific and Cotton Belt (St Louis South Western) which allowed SP passenger trains to reach as far north as Saint Louis; Texas & Pacific, Missouri Pacific, Rock Island, and possibly several lesser known roads.
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