Fast Track To Public Rail Electrification

[BNSFwatcher]

Date:  20 Nov 2019  Memo from:  BNSF Railway  To:  J. B. Hunt Transportation  Cc:  Schnieder Transportation, United Parcel Service

Dear Ms. Hunt;  in response to your inquiry, we must say "Yes!"  Your trailers and containers will arrive on-time, provided the wind blows and the sun shines.  Thank you for your faith in 'renewable' energy. 

                                                                  Matt Rose, CEO, BNSF Railway

[Anonymous]

BNSFwatcher

Date:  20 Nov 2019  Memo from:  BNSF Railway  To:  J. B. Hunt Transportation  Cc:  Schnieder Transportation, United Parcel Service

Dear Ms. Hunt;  in response to your inquiry, we must say "Yes!"  Your trailers and containers will arrive on-time, provided the wind blows and the sun shines.  Thank you for your faith in 'renewable' energy. 

                                                                  Matt Rose, CEO, BNSF Railway

 

What Rose will tell J.B. Hunt is that the trailers will be on time, but the bill will be higher.

 

Wind-generated electricity will pull trains just as reliably as electricity from other sources if the wind generation is sufficiently backed up with redundant wind energy capacity.  However, this is an extra “hidden” cost of wind energy.  There needs to be sufficient surplus capacity to support a given level of use, in case of wind fluctuations. 

 

Sustainability, when applied to the U.S., is all about sacrifice and reduction of consumption, which will be brought about by higher priced, sustainable energy alternatives.     

[Anonymous]

While this thread is not about high-speed rail per se, HSR is one component of the national transportation system, which is the thread focus.  And HSR does happen to be the one component that is moving forward with some funding in place.  Oddly enough, however, there is an interesting dichotomy between the “green” or sustainability motive of the national transportation system proposal, and the concept of high speed. 

 

Sustainability is a buzzword that refers to limiting consumption to a level that can be renewed by the natural earth processes.  It can be illustrated by an example of a small universe consisting of one person and an apple tree.  The tree only makes apples once a year, and if it happens to make 365 apples, that means the person can eat one a day.  If the person decides to eat two a day, that is not sustainable.  If you burn oil, you must not burn it faster than the earth can produce it, or your consumption is unsustainable.  In poor countries, consumption is likely to be less than what is available on a sustainable basis.  But most rich countries are said to be consuming at a rate that is not sustainable.  The United States has generally been labeled as having the most unsustainable lifestyle of all.  So the prescription for the U.S. is twofold:

 

1)      Improve the natural yield of energy and resources (develop apple trees that make more apples)

2)      Reduce consumption of energy and resources (eat fewer apples)

 

High speed rail succeeds at item #1, but fails item #2.  Shifting people off of rubber tires and highways, and onto steel wheels and rails increases the fuel efficiency.  However, pushing the speed higher decreases fuel efficiency.  To make transportation sustainable, we should shift people onto rail and haul them as slowly as we can.

 

The same is true for freight.  Corresponding to the HSR component of the national transportation system is the “Rapid Freight Rail” (RFR) component, which is lighter weight freight trains running on improved track at 100 mph.  The higher speed is deemed necessary to attract freight transportation away from trucking.  Even with a truck pickup at the origin and a truck delivery at the destination, RFR is said to be capable of a higher overall speed than an all-trucking alternative.  However, the truly sustainable solution would be to shift truck traffic to rail and to lower the speed.  If it takes longer to ship the goods, that just amounts to eating fewer apples.     

  

Here is a piece in The Guardian by John Whitelegg of the Stockholm Environment Institute arguing against HSR for the reasons I have mentioned:

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009/apr/29/high-speed-rail-travel-europe-uk

 

He says:

 

“The HSR plan is a large and expensive sledgehammer to crack a modestly sized nut.”

 

“HSR does not reduce the fuel consumption of domestic aviation or reduce annual carbon emissions from aircraft.  And it produces twice as much CO2 per passenger kilometer as a non-high speed train.”

 

***

 

This article from the Wall Street Journal mentions that building all ten potential HSR routes in the U.S. would cut 3 million tons of CO2 emissions per year, which is roughly half the output of one coal fired power plant per year.

 

It mentions the $8 billion committed to HSR plus an additional $5 billion promised = $13 billion.  According to the article, the total price tag for a U.S. system will be $250-500 billion.

 

http://blogs.wsj.com/environmentalcapital/2009/04/16/working-on-the-railroad-obamas-green-pitch-for-high-speed-trains/

 

***

 

Here is the U.S. national HSR strategic plan, which cites the 3 million tons of CO2 reduction per year:

 

http://www.fra.dot.gov/Downloads/RRdev/hsrspfacts.pdf

 

***

[blownout cylinder]

Bucyrus

Sustainability, when applied to the U.S., is all about sacrifice and reduction of consumption, which will be brought about by higher priced, sustainable energy alternatives.     

That would be the key there. Sustainability. This would not coincide with HSR precisely because of the increase in electricity usage.

Sustainability is kind of counter to HSR in that speed is of no importance in the scheme of things. One cannot attain sustainability if the average person does all the cutting back so that a wild HSR scheme--electrified--can be had. Some proponents seem to think that it can be done however---

In a recent McLeans Magazine I came across an article that mentioned a Alberta consultants report that looked into a HSR link proposed between Calgary and Edmonton AB. This report ruled out any HSR precisely on the basis of cost and the issue of low demand for this HSR link. There was a demand for a rail link but low demand for the HSR portion.

And thanks for all the research you put out here, Bucyrus

[HarveyK400]

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Bucyrus

Sustainability, when applied to the U.S., is all about sacrifice and reduction of consumption, which will be brought about by higher priced, sustainable energy alternatives.     

That would be the key there. Sustainability. This would not coincide with HSR precisely because of the increase in electricity usage.

Sustainability is kind of counter to HSR in that speed is of no importance in the scheme of things. One cannot attain sustainability if the average person does all the cutting back so that a wild HSR scheme--electrified--can be had. Some proponents seem to think that it can be done however---

In a recent McLeans Magazine I came across an article that mentioned a Alberta consultants report that looked into a HSR link proposed between Calgary and Edmonton AB. This report ruled out any HSR precisely on the basis of cost and the issue of low demand for this HSR link. There was a demand for a rail link but low demand for the HSR portion.

And thanks for all the research you put out here, Bucyrus

 

I don't think speed is irrelevant, even in the sustainability mode.  That is the carrot enticing travel mode choices if energy cost is not wildly excessive and rationing is not involved.  The point is achieving a balance that saves some energy overall by diversion to rail, notwithstanding the small proportion of rail.

[dinwitty]

 I haven't tried to read this whole thread, but heres my angle. Probably 80-100 years ago we didnt have this oil problem, but we didnt have all the cars out there, technology was at steam and electric, what was useful and viable at the time. In comes oil, cars and diesel engines causing an upheaval in motive power use.  We did have a large interurban system which by the sake of business competiton drove off the interurbans leaving a select few surviving. 

Nobody is trying to kill off the automobile or its needs or those who have to have its use, but the method of propulsion is changing already with electric cars and hybrids and higher mpg. Thats the push today.

Its simple dispite how many gazillion years we have of coal/oil is packed away underground you must make the alternatives should you run out, when that happens you will be forced the other direction.

That is why now what is going on.

60-80 years ago Detroit had their oil guzzling push and even got Los Angeles to trash their streetcar system.

Now its become turnabout and economics, the same reason steam and electric got nosed off, you're looking at it again.

As far as all the complaints about electrification and wrecks and so on, you just have to be prepared for it, just go look at the South Shore today who deal with all this on a daily basis. Any wreck requires cleanup and thats costly anyways, whooppee. 

Recently a UP coal train had a car's trucks damage sevral miles of South Shore track dragging its damaged truck along. South Shore had that track fixed in one day, it was a massive repair with outside contract help, but dang, that was an impressive repair job!!

I don't want to hear about the crybabying against it, its practical about electrification.

UP has had a test track of overhead forever at one of their facilities so its not unknown to them.

Even with electrification I don't think you will eliminate the diesel locomotive, especially in areas of an accident, the diesel engine will get traffic moving again till overhead is repaired, then your back to the electrics. (or as you reroute traffic away while repairs are done)

Just remember if the automobile didnt come around we would be intertwined today with interurbans and streetcars. As time goes solutions will be found and adaptations to the daily lives will be made.

cheers.

 

 

[wwhitby]

One important question in the electrification debate is where is the additional electricity required going to come from?  Our current administrator is hostile to the coal industry.  Coal and natural gas fired plants will release CO2, which would be impacted by cap & trade.  Nuclear, no one wants.  That leaves hydro, geothermal, wind and solar, the total of which won't meet all our current needs now, much less so in the future.

IMHO, unless we either back away from cap & trade-type legislation, or start building more nuclear power plants, railroad electrification is a non-starter.

BTW, I never thought about EMD's F3 killing electrification as well as steam, but you're right.

[Anonymous]

HarveyK400

I don't think speed is irrelevant, even in the sustainability mode.  That is the carrot enticing travel mode choices if energy cost is not wildly excessive and rationing is not involved.  The point is achieving a balance that saves some energy overall by diversion to rail, notwithstanding the small proportion of rail.

 

I agree that speed is not irrelevant.  Some degree of speed is essential just to accomplish transportation.  The question is all about how much speed destroys the mission.  I also agree that the higher the speed, the more it will entice people to take the train rather that flying or driving.  But the whole point of doing that is not a private investment wager that high-speed trains will become profitable.  On the contrary, it is a government sector, publicly financed response to a crisis on behalf of the U.S. citizens.  Specifically, the most critical purpose for HSR, which is the reduction of CO2, is intended to avert an incredibly dire catastrophe.  It is not even asked to make a profit, let alone expected to do so.  It is intended to save our lives. 

 

There are three possible ways to power HSR:

 

1)      Diesel.

2)      Electricity generated from coal or other fossil fuels.

3)      Electricity generated from renewable sources such as wind and solar.

 

With method #3, no CO2 is produced regardless of train speed, so there is no conflict between speed and CO2 emissions.  With methods #1 and #2, there are CO2 emissions, which rise with train speed.  At the highest speeds contemplated for HSR, trains produce, per passenger mile, CO2 emissions similar to that of flying and driving.  So what would be the point of fossil fueled HSR running at those highest speeds if it fails to reduce the earth’s CO2?

 

With fossil fueled HSR, to the extent it attracts travelers away from air and highway, it succeeds in its mission.  But to the extent that it increases its speed, it fails in its mission.  But then again, to the extent that HSR is fueled by renewable energy, it succeeds at its mission

 

The objective should be to get people to trade air and highway for rail and then to produce as little CO2 as possible.  It is true that rail speed is an enticement for people to ride it, and the train speed needs to be exceptionally high in order to get people to choose it over flying.  High train speed is the carrot all right.  But the government has sticks as well as carrots to get people to behave properly.  The government can give the people the new train as a carrot, and get them to ride it by raising the price of gasoline, as the stick.    

   

Here is a New York Times blog piece that is critical of the green claims for HSR, and it is followed by lots of interesting comments. 

 

http://freakonomics.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/07/24/high-speed-rail-and-co2/

[schlimm]

 Bucyrus:  A very good article with lots of thought-provoking comments.  Thanks for the link!

[blownout cylinder]

schlimm

 Bucyrus:  A very good article with lots of thought-provoking comments.  Thanks for the link!

I'll second this comment!! Thanks!!

[HarveyK400]

Bucyrus

I agree that speed is not irrelevant.  Some degree of speed is essential just to accomplish transportation.  The question is all about how much speed destroys the mission.  I also agree that the higher the speed, the more it will entice people to take the train rather that flying or driving.  But the whole point of doing that is not a private

 

investment wager that high-speed trains will become profitable.  On the contrary, it is a government sector, publicly financed response to a crisis on behalf of the U.S. citizens.  Specifically, the most critical purpose for HSR, which is the reduction of CO2, is intended to avert an incredibly dire catastrophe.  It is not even asked to make a profit, let alone expected to do so.  It is intended to save our lives. 

 

There are three possible ways to power HSR:

 

1)      Diesel.

2)      Electricity generated from coal or other fossil fuels.

3)      Electricity generated from renewable sources such as wind and solar.

 

With method #3, no CO2 is produced regardless of train speed, so there is no conflict between speed and CO2 emissions.  With methods #1 and #2, there are CO2 emissions, which rise with train speed.  At the highest speeds contemplated for HSR, trains produce, per passenger mile, CO2 emissions similar to that of flying and driving.  So what would be the point of fossil fueled HSR running at those highest speeds if it fails to reduce the earth’s CO2?

 

With fossil fueled HSR, to the extent it attracts travelers away from air and highway, it succeeds in its mission.  But to the extent that it increases its speed, it fails in its mission.  But then again, to the extent that HSR is fueled by renewable energy, it succeeds at its mission

 

The objective should be to get people to trade air and highway for rail and then to produce as little CO2 as possible.  It is true that rail speed is an enticement for people to ride it, and the train speed needs to be exceptionally high in order to get people to choose it over flying.  High train speed is the carrot all right.  But the government has sticks as well as carrots to get people to behave properly.  The government can give the people the new train as a carrot, and get them to ride it by raising the price of gasoline, as the stick.    

   

Here is a New York Times blog piece that is critical of the green claims for HSR, and it is followed by lots of interesting comments. 

 

http://freakonomics.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/07/24/high-speed-rail-and-co2/

I agree with Bucyrus on the energy and emissions goals for HSR being problematic.

First, have we forgotten the discussion on the recouperated gas-turbine for light weight HSR traction for a 4th alternative?  Emissions are still a problem; but bio-fuels may offer a solution to an oil shortage.

The Government isn't the only Big Stick - an expected future shortage and scarcity/supply-sensitive pricing and profiteering will affect oil costs regardless of the relatively constant, slow rising, cost of oil production.

The Eric A Morris article link referencing a Booze, Allen, Hamilton study for the UK DOT argues that construction emissions eliminates the advantage of HSR over air transport; but does this take into account alternative airport improvement and maintenance needs?  Or road improvements if auto travel is not diverted?  These are not all sunk investment, and meeting future road and air demand will be costly without diversion to rail, high speed or conventional.

Next, moving HSR seats produces as much emissions as autos and considerably more than intercity bus; but this is a comparison to normal highway speeds.  While the prospect for clean electric energy is acknowledged, the article focuses on emissions from the continued use of fossil fuels for HSR.

I do agree that HSR should be evaluated thoroughly.

 

[Anonymous]

wwhitby

One important question in the electrification debate is where is the additional electricity required going to come from?  Our current administrator is hostile to the coal industry.  Coal and natural gas fired plants will release CO2, which would be impacted by cap & trade.  Nuclear, no one wants.  That leaves hydro, geothermal, wind and solar, the total of which won't meet all our current needs now, much less so in the future.

IMHO, unless we either back away from cap & trade-type legislation, or start building more nuclear power plants, railroad electrification is a non-starter.

BTW, I never thought about EMD's F3 killing electrification as well as steam, but you're right.

While this thread focuses on rail electrification, that is only one small component of the larger plan, which is for a national transportation system.  The two most critical elements of the purpose of this plan are to abandon the use of oil, and to avert a climate catastrophe.  The latter requires that rail electrification power be derived from renewable energy sources, which will most likely be windmills.  However, electrification may commence with energy derived from non-renewable sources such as coal.

 

Windmill generators will need to be located in areas currently remote from the necessary power distribution grid capacity needed to carry the power to the points of use.  So, new power grid capacity will be needed in addition to the wind generators.  Aside from the distribution of electricity for rail electrification, railroad right-of-ways may play a key role in providing corridors for new grid capacity for non-rail electrical use. 

 

In a context even larger than the national transportation system, there is intent to derive electricity for all applications from renewable energy sources, and rebuild the entire distribution grid with what is called the smart grid.  The smart grid will micromanage electricity use and encourage conservation.  The amount of electricity that will be saved by the smart grid and conservation will likely be more than enough to power the near universal electrification of railroads.    

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Bucyrus

In a context even larger than the national transportation system, there is intent to derive electricity for all applications from renewable energy sources, and rebuild the entire distribution grid with what is called the smart grid.  The smart grid will micromanage electricity use and encourage conservation.  The amount of electricity that will be saved by the smart grid and conservation will likely be more than enough to power the near universal electrification of railroads.    

There will then be some conservation. Note--SOME conservation because on balance the power needs will shift to large scale operations. The average consumer will conserve due to the price sting while some segments will get access to more energy--

[schlimm]

HarveyK400

The Eric A Morris article link referencing a Booze, Allen, Hamilton study for the UK DOT argues that construction emissions eliminates the advantage of HSR over air transport; but does this take into account alternative airport improvement and maintenance needs?  Or road improvements if auto travel is not diverted?  These are not all sunk investment, and meeting future road and air demand will be costly without diversion to rail, high speed or conventional.

 

Good questions.  Furthermore, given Booz Allen's connections primarily to DoD and CIA and electronic surveillance under SWIFT, I wonder how valid the report even is.

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schlimm

Good questions.  Furthermore, given Booz Allen's connections primarily to DoD and CIA and electronic surveillance under SWIFT, I wonder how valid the report even is.

Wonder if'n we don't have the tinfoil hat on a little too tight-----

Anything that disagrees with centralized government involvment with HSR, and the associated coordination under a national transportation policy has to be assumed as being suspect----

[schlimm]

blownout cylinder

Wonder if'n we don't have the tinfoil hat on a little too tight-----

Anything that disagrees with centralized government involvment with HSR, and the associated coordination under a national transportation policy has to be assumed as being suspect----

 

Insults are the last refuge of a fuzzy thinker.  The Booz Allen record speaks for itself.  Given its connections to the US federal government and your paranoid delusions (those old black helicopters are coming!), I should think you would automatically reject it.  In any case, what gives you sitting in Canada, the position to denounce "creeping federal takeovers"?

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schlimm

Good questions.  Furthermore, given Booz Allen's connections primarily to DoD and CIA and electronic surveillance under SWIFT, I wonder how valid the report even is.

Who wrote these lines then considering the connections between Booz Allen and the DoD, CIA and this mmmm? I didn't ---

Oh---and nice sneakiness in assuming me being paranoid---

[Anonymous]

HarveyK400

The Eric A Morris article link referencing a Booze, Allen, Hamilton study for the UK DOT argues that construction emissions eliminates the advantage of HSR over air transport; but does this take into account alternative airport improvement and maintenance needs?  Or road improvements if auto travel is not diverted? 

 

The core purpose of HSR is the reduction of CO2 emissions by mankind.  Therefore, it does not follow that it is okay for HSR to emit CO2 because other forms of transportation emit CO2.  For HSR to be viable, it must emit significantly less CO2 than alternate forms of transportation.  To achieve that goal, wind-generated electricity is the only viable option.

 

Here is an article citing the Booz Allen Hamilton report:

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2009/aug/17/high-speed-rail-environment