Something I ran accross: Where was the highest point on the Burlington Northern? What state, and what mountains(trick question of sorts.)?
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
That's easy. Since you said "was" rather than "is" it would be at the Climax Molybdenum Mine at Fremont Pass, Colorado, elevation 11,318 feet above sea level. Mountains to the east are the Ten-Mile Range (subrange of the Mosquito Range) of the Rocky Mountains; mountains to the west are a subrange of the Sawatch Range of the Rocky Mountains.
RWM
That would have been my first thought as well. I read something in a 1976-77 Burlington Northern annual that made me stop and think. It said that the highest point was 6420 feet, in the Black Hills of S.D. (?) Would that have been true in 1976? I really thought that the passes on NP and GN were higher than that?
BN didn't sell the Climax Branch until after 1983. The Deadwood Branch might have been the highest point on the CB&Q proper (discounting subsidiaries) but it wasn't even the highest point on the continuous BN system (the Climax Branch was isolated). Palmer Lake, Colorado, is 7,225' above sea level. The Climax Branch was part of the Colorado & Southern, a CB&Q subsidiary beginning in 1908. The C&S was merged into BN system in 1981.
I don't know why it's so important for people to worry about if something is biggest, longest, heaviest, tallest, longest, etc. Invariably the discussion descends into arcane "rules" and trivia. Isn't it sufficient to just remark that the CB&Q had an interesting branch line operation that ascended into the Black Hills?
A fairly substantial portion of the Deadwood Branch is now a bike trail called the Mickelson Trail. I've had the great pleasure of biking from Deadwood (at about 4700') over the apex of the route at Dumont (at about 6,200') and then down to around Mystic (around 5,000'). Its a tough climb on a mountain bike and its amazing to imagine some of the old CB&Q steam power working this route. There are still footings from some of the stations, towers, etc. along the route. Its fun to see some of the places that time has seemed to pass by like Rochford and Mystic.
There is a great ride from Dumont, back down to Deadwood. It's about 12 miles of trail, with 11 miles downhill and 1 mile of flat trail. Its 90% coasting, sometimes at 30 mph. Nice run.
The Deadwood bike shop is closed per their website. It was in the old CB&Q engine house in Deadwood. Bike are still available in Spearfish.
The tunnels in the area of Mystic are cool to see and there are several impressive bridges on the route.
I hope to finish the Mystic to Edgemont portion on a future SD trip.
Trail Map
http://www.sdgfp.info/parks/regions/northernhills/mickelsontrail/index.htm
Bridge photo
http://www.travelsd.com/about/events/2008/images/TrailTrek.jpg
Tunnel Photo
http://www.rosyinn.com/mickelson_tunnell.jpg
Rochford
http://www.rosyinn.com/5100b24.htm
I AGREE WITH RWM, WHY DO WE HAVE ALL OF THESE 'SILLY' THREADS.
I WILL CORRECT THE PALMER LAKE REFERENCE. IT WAS ON BOTH THE SANTA FE AND THE RIO GRANDE AND THE C&S ONLY HAD TRACKAGE RIGHTS AS SANTA FE'S TENANT. THE ORIGINAL C&S LINE WENT EAST OF PALMER LAKE HILL THROUGH PARKER AND CAME INTO COLORADO SPRINGS FROM THE EAST.
diningcar I AGREE WITH RWM, WHY DO WE HAVE ALL OF THESE 'SILLY' THREADS. I WILL CORRECT THE PALMER LAKE REFERENCE. IT WAS ON BOTH THE SANTA FE AND THE RIO GRANDE AND THE C&S ONLY HAD TRACKAGE RIGHTS AS SANTA FE'S TENANT. THE ORIGINAL C&S LINE WENT EAST OF PALMER LAKE HILL THROUGH PARKER AND CAME INTO COLORADO SPRINGS FROM THE EAST.
Oh, they're kinda' fun. Not everything we discuss has to be dead bang serious.
It's like discussing a baseball game. Doesn't really mean a thing. But you can have some enjoyable time talking about it. After over 50 years of watching baseball I didn't know that base runners are released as soon as an umpire calls the Infield Fly Rule, even with the ball still way up there in the air. Until a White Sox runner scored from third on a high pop up against the Cubs.
Made my day. And I enjoy talking about this trivial rule in a "game" that literally has no significant meaning.
Kinda' like wondering what the highest place on the BN/CB&Q/BNSF was or is. It really doesn't mean a thing, but it's fun if you want to participate. I'll agree, there are all kinds of trivial ins and outs. That's part of the fun. If you don't want to "play" just don't. But if others do, just let 'em play.
I think I've shown that I can be serious when the discussion is serious. But we can have some fun too.
Couldn't have been THAT silly and arcane if RWM was the first to respond. He even caught the "was" aspect of the question, and provided his usual level of meticulous detail. I found this question and its answers were more meaningful than most of the other trivial stuff that gets discussed to the point of exhaustion on this forum. And it's simply fun, like Gabe's "Western Where Is It" which we used to see here.
Well, such questions are usually - or at least sometimes - worthwhile for the intellectual value - ''knowledge for its own sake'', if you will. I suspect that many on this Forum and this thread are 'junkies' for that kind of thing.
Yes, people can and do get carried away with the trivia and rules and definitions, etc. - but along the way a lot can sometimes be learned about the respective contenders and the basis for their claim. For example: the whole 'big steam' debate - you can't understand or participate in it intelligently without a pretty good understanding of the mechanical principles involved. I'll also note that even Bob LeMassena noted in the first few paragraphs of that article that the debate was similar to that about beautiful women, or politics, religion, or baseball, and the like, etc., if I recall correctly.
And in this instance, it seems that Murphy was questioning the validity of someone else's long-ago published claim, rather than creating one of his own - so I won't fault him for stirring up trouble on account of that.
On the instant subject, it appears that other than RWM's answer, that old claim may be correct by a few feet, as Homestake Pass at 6,328 ft. seems to be the next lowest contender - or at least pretty close to accurate, 'depending' on the particulars of those rules and definitions. Here's a link to an interesting BNSF system map that shows the highest elevations on the principal routes, as follows for the former BN [only] routes:
http://www.bnsf.com/tools/reference/images/elevationsmap.gif
5,215' via Hi-Line Route
6,018' via Casper Route
5,094' via Gillette Route
4,767' via I5 Corridor
And from the April 2004 Trains Mountain Railroads 'Special Collector's Issue':
CB&Q as a 'Central Transcontinental' - 5198 ft. at Denver (pg. 40);
GN as a 'Northwestern Transcontinental' - 5213 ft. at Marias Pass, and 2833 ft. at Cascade Tunnel (pg. 44); - as a 'Pacific Coast Route', ;
NP as a 'Northwestern Transcontinental' - 5590 ft. at Bozeman Pass Tunnel, 6328 ft. at Homestake Pass, 5566 ft. at Mullan Pass, and 2852 ft. at Stampede Pass Tunnel (pg. 44); and,
SP&S/ Oregon Trunk as a 'Pacific Coast Route' - 4758 ft. at Chemult (pg. 46).
Finally - a huge Thanks ! ! ! and a to Doublestack for all the trail info and link. I wondered if - but had no idea - that line had been turned into a trail, and one that is so notable. It's a great example of the inadvertent/ accidental/ serendipitous knowledge and information that can come out of this kind of seemingly arcane or trivial question.
- Paul North.
Murph
In 1976 there was still a sign at Dumont that listed the elevation and said it was "The highest point on the CB&Q". Unfortunately I never took a photo then and my last two trips by it in '78 were in the dark.
As far as BNSF goes, I think our Maria's Pass (not a PC spelling, just good English), at 5,213' is a contender for the modern record. I don't consider the MRL's leased lines as part of the BNSF today. I'll have to check out the "high lines" in SD. Interesting. Too bad they have been turned into Yuppie trails.
BNSFwatcherAs far as BNSF goes, I think our Maria's Pass (not a PC spelling, just good English), at 5,213' is a contender for the modern record.
The highest point is just outside of Flagstaff Arizona at 7,000 feet. The sign by the track reads, this is the highest point between Chicago and Los Angeles.
The BNSF system map that I referenced above has 2 entries in that vicinity:
''7,587' via Raton and North Route (non-intermodal rte - exception only)''
''7,354' via Amarillo and South Route (main intermodal transcon route)'' - since this matches the Arizona Divide elevation (see below), which is a few miles west of Flagstaff, this is likely the location that is designated by the sign mentioned in the above post.
To complete the items on/ from that map, here's what it shows between Northern California and Southern California:
''4,025' via Tehachapi''
The April 2004 Trains Mountain Railroads 'Special Collector's Issue' also depicts these profile peaks for the rest of what is now the BNSF system, as I understand it:
St. Louis - San Francisco as an 'Ozark Plateau Crossing ' - 1488 ft. at Marshfield (pg. 38);
Santa Fe as a 'Southwestern Transcontinental' (pg. 42) - 3822 ft. at Cajon Pass Summit, 7354 ft. at Arizona Divide - a few miles west of Flagstaff, 7247 ft. at Campbell Pass, New Mexico - the Continental Divide at about 40 miles east of Gallup NM, 6491 ft. on the 'freight line' at Mountainair NM about halfway between Belen NM and Vaughn NM, and on the 'passenger line' 7437 ft. at Glorieta Pass NM, and 7573 ft. at Raton Pass NM - both in northern New Mexico; plus, as a Pacific Coast Route (pg. 46) - 3822 ft. at Cajon Pass Summit, and 4205 ft. at Tehachapi Summit.
Now, ranking these summits - including those in my previous post, and also including those portions of lines adn their summits that were later 'spun off' to Montana Rail Link - based on these elevations provides the following result:
1. SF - 7573 ft. at Raton Pass NM [7,587' per BNSF map]
2. SF - 7437 ft. at Glorieta Pass NM
3. SF - 7354 ft. at Arizona Divide - a few miles west of Flagstaff [also 7,354' per BNSF map]
4. SF - 7247 ft. at Campbell Pass, New Mexico - the Continental Divide at about 40 miles east of Gallup NM
5. SF - 6491 ft. on the 'freight line' at Mountainair NM about halfway between Belen NM and Vaughn NM
6. CB&Q - 6,420 ft. in Black Hills, South Dakota [per the 1976-77 BN Annual and Murphy]
7. NP - 6328 ft. at Homestake Pass
8. CB&Q - 6,018' via Casper Route [per BNSF map]
9. NP - 5590 ft. at Bozeman Pass Tunnel
10. NP - 5566 ft. at Mullan Pass
11. GN - 5213 ft. at Marias Pass [5,215' via Hi-Line Route per BNSF map - good knowledge or guess at 10th, timz !]
12. CB&Q - 5198 ft. at Denver
13. CB&Q - 5,094' via Gillette Route [per BNSF map]
14. SP&S/ Oregon Trunk - 4758 ft. at Chemult, Oregon [4,767' via I5 Corridor per BNSF map] - note that there appears to be a higher summit on the former WP just south of Bieber, but no elevations are shown for it.
16. SF - 3822 ft. at Cajon Pass Summit
17. NP - 2852 ft. at Stampede Pass Tunnel
18. GN - 2833 ft. at Cascade Tunnel
19. St. Louis - San Francisco - 1488 ft. at Marshfield.
Okay. I think this is fun. Learn something new everyday! Q: what state has the lowest "High Point" of an operating railroad? Florida (max. el. 345')? Rhode Island? Dunno. Again, just fun!!! What if Long Island was a state? Delaware? Yar, it is a state. I think....
Hays
After some further thought, a couple more observations from this data:
1. Murphy Siding's Black Hills line does appear to be the highest point on the 'old' BN = pre-merger with the AT&SF, though possibly subject to RWM's Colorado mining branch clearly trumping it depending on how and whether it is included, etc.
Despite a pair of 7,300 +/- ft. summits and one in the 6,500 ft. range = 3. through 5. above, the former AT&SF 'Transcon' line appears to be more than holding its own share of imported cross-country intermodal traffic as against the ex-GN Marias Pass line, with a summit that is over 2,000 ft. lower than the 1st two, and about 1,200 ft. lower than the 3rd. Likewise, the Cajon Pass Summit - at about 1,000 ft. higher than GN's Cascade Tunnel - does not appear to be a detriment, either.
So, while a lot of other factors enter into this, it's a little surprising to me that a route with such an elevation differential handicap does so well. That's especially so since I understand that the container ships from the Orient essentially have to sail considerably farther past Seattle and Tacoma - which would go to the lower Marias Pass line - to get to Los Angeles/ Long Beach, which are served by the Transcon line with those higher passes.
I would think that in a rational world, the container traffic would gravitate to the pass that's considerably lower and with a shorter sea journey to the port of unloading, instead of to the considerably higher passes that involve a longer ocean voyage. But as has been explained on here before by RWM and others, this geographical and potential operating advantage seems to be trumped by the other important factors that affect the routing of that kind of traffic - the literal path of history that blessed the operations of the ATSF route, the 'magnet' of the local market for imports around the LA-LB port hub, the 'critical mass' of shipping and the sorting functions that can be performed there, etc.
greyhounds It's like discussing a baseball game. Doesn't really mean a thing. And I enjoy talking about this trivial rule in a "game" that literally has no significant meaning.
It's like discussing a baseball game. Doesn't really mean a thing.
And I enjoy talking about this trivial rule in a "game" that literally has no significant meaning.
Hmmm...as a member of the Society for American Baseball Research I'm not sure I can agree with that....
www.sabr.org
Highest point on the New York Central was Big Moose, in the central Adirondacks. Elevation is 2035', which puts it above the SLSF, if well below all of the lines that crossed the Rockies.
There is still active track there (Adirondack Scenic) - although we aren't currently running "revenue" trains to there right now. In fact, a train came through Big Moose just last week on a ferry move from Lake Placid.
Unless there's a spot along the PA border that's higher (Eries's crossing at Gulf Summit, just north of the Starucca Viaduct was around 1350', and O&W's "Apex" was about 1435'), Big Moose is probably it for NY and all the railroads there.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
BNSFwatcher Okay. I think this is fun. Learn something new everyday! Q: what state has the lowest "High Point" of an operating railroad? Florida (max. el. 345')? Rhode Island? Dunno. Again, just fun!!! What if Long Island was a state? Delaware? Yar, it is a state. I think.... Hays
I'm guessing that the lowest - Low Point - would be on the UP (former SP) near Salton Sea. - 200 ft below sea level.
DoublestackBNSFwatcher Okay. I think this is fun. Learn something new everyday! Q: what state has the lowest "High Point" of an operating railroad? Florida (max. el. 345')? Rhode Island? Dunno. Again, just fun!!! What if Long Island was a state? Delaware? Yar, it is a state. I think.... Hays Lowest High Point is an interesting thought. I'd bet that you might be right with FLA. I'm guessing that the lowest - Low Point - would be on the UP (former SP) near Salton Sea. - 200 ft below sea level.
The lowest low point in current use is close to 230 feet below sea level where the Sunset Route follows the shore of the Salton Sea. Prior to 1906, the lowest point on the line was at Dos Palmas (Durmid) at 278 feet below sea level.
Chemult was on the former GN. Oregon Trunk ended at Bend, GN to Chemult, trackage rights over SP to Bieber Line Jct (Klamath Falls), GN to Beiber thence Western Pacific.
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