The recent discussion on Official Guides led me to start looking closely at the equipment lists for passenger trains, which led me to check out the book Night Trains from the library.
What was the business model for Pullman? How did they make money? Did they contract out to the railroads, or did they collect revenue from the passengers and pay to the railroads for handling the cars?
Any books out there on this aspect of Pullman?
Night Trains is a fascinating book. Not so long ago one could really travel by train in style. Jets and interstates changed that.
Any personal Pullman stories out there?
ed
If you'd like to see a Pullman car in pretty good condition with a really good interpretive display on the life of the Pullman Porter, the Natl. RR Museum at Green Bay opened a new exhibit last year inside Pullman car Lake Mitchell, with several 3D avitars guiding the tour.
http://www.pullmanporters.org/
From The Historical Guide to North American Railroads:
"The arrangement with the railroads was usually that Pullman provided the cars, fully furnished and staffed, and the railroads hauled them and provided heat and light. The railroad received the regular coach fare for each passenger, and Pullman received a supplement fare plus a charge for berth or seat occupancy."
Nick
Take a Ride on the Reading with the: Reading Company Technical & Historical Society http://www.readingrailroad.org/
nbrodar From The Historical Guide to North American Railroads: "The arrangement with the railroads was usually that Pullman provided the cars, fully furnished and staffed, and the railroads hauled them and provided heat and light. The railroad received the regular coach fare for each passenger, and Pullman received a supplement fare plus a charge for berth or seat occupancy." Nick
This is not too unlike what the Australians call a hook-and-pull arrangement. Amtrak had a similar arrangement with American European Express. Amtrak billed AEE for the movement of five private cars between Chicago and Washington and AEE collected its fares from its passengers.
Are you familiar with this series of articles that appeared in Trains ? There's a lot of insight there . . .
Once again with Conductor Moedinger Trains, December 1976 page 22 working as a Pullman conductor ( CONDUCTOR, "MOEDINGER, WILLIAM M.", PULLMAN, RAILROADER, TRN )
And this one, indexed under a slightly different name:
-Paul North.
Paul_D_North_Jr Are you familiar with this series of articles that appeared in Trains ? There's a lot of insight there . . .
Johnny
CSSHEGEWISCH"The arrangement with the railroads was usually that Pullman provided the cars, fully furnished and staffed, and the railroads hauled them and provided heat and light. The railroad received the regular coach fare for each passenger, and Pullman received a supplement fare plus a charge for berth or seat occupancy."
Hmm; I always had the impression that the railroad received the full value of the rail ticket, charging a higher fare because a sleeper could not carry as many passengers as a coach could, and thus attempting to gain as much revenue as possible from each car. With the first class tariff running perhaps 50% higher than coach, and a full load of about 20 passengers, the railfare income would be equivalent to that of 30 coach passengers--and a coach could carry 50-60 passengers. Well, well.
MP173 Any books out there on this aspect of Pullman?
Johnny's post above reminded me - there were several 'wrap-up' articles in Trains in the mid-1960s when Pullman Co. operations ended. I believe the Oct. 1967 one below may have even included a line or route diagram:
A Pullman Postscript Trains, November 1969 page 20 photos of Pullman Company operations and history ( "DUBIN, ARTHUR D.", PHOTO, PULLMAN, TRN )
George M. Pullman lives Trains, August 1977 page 20 Pullman's intentions live on through the work of a porter ( "FREEMAN, CHARLES", FRONTISPIECE, "MORGAN, DAVID P.", PULLMAN, SR, TRN )Also, I believe Arthur D. Dubin was the 'go-to' expert on all things Pullman, and may have written some books. See if you can find any by him, too.
- Paul North.
Paul_D_North_JrAlso, I believe Arthur D. Dubin was the 'go-to' expert on all things Pullman, and may have written some books. See if you can find any by him, too.
I recommend Art Dubin's Some Classic Trains and More Classic Trains.
Here are two links to videos that show travel on the pre-1938 Twentieth Century Limited. They are found on the thread "Flight of the Century" on the Classical Trains Forum. I forwarded them to my wife, and she enjoyed them greatly.
Part One: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4yZY8_-xg4
Part Two: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhSj_h5m0gQ
Paul_D_North_Jr Are you familiar with this series of articles that appeared in Trains ? There's a lot of insight there . . . A million miles-plus in the uniform of George M. Trains, February 1970 page 40 Diary of a Pullman conductor ( CONDUCTOR, "MOEDINGER, WILLIAM M.", PULLMAN, TRN ) Pullman from the peak of troop travel to the impact of the jet Trains, March 1970 page 40 Diary of a Pullman conductor ( CONDUCTOR, "MOEDINGER, WILLIAM M.", PULLMAN, TRN ) It's gonna be one of those trips, captain Trains, May 1972 page 38 Pullman conductor's work ( CONDUCTOR, "MOEDINGER, WILLIAM M.", PULLMAN, TRN ) The life of a Pullman conductor was not all bad Trains, October 1972 page 38 working as a Pulllman conductor ( CONDUCTOR, "MOEDINGER, WILLIAM M.", PULLMAN, RAILROADER, TRN ) Once again with Conductor Moedinger Trains, December 1976 page 22 working as a Pullman conductor ( CONDUCTOR, "MOEDINGER, WILLIAM M.", PULLMAN, RAILROADER, TRN ) And this one, indexed under a slightly different name: Conductor Moedinger rides again Trains, June 1976 page 22 working as a Pullman conductor ( CONDUCTOR, "MOEDINGER, WILLIAM", PULLMAN, TRAVEL, TRN ) -Paul North.
In reading the installment in the March, 1970, issue, I found the answer to a question that had been posed, and not answered on one of the quiz threads some time back. The question concerned the date that Pullman was allowed to re-instate overnight service on lines that were less than 450 miles in length, and the answer is that on 3/15/1946 such service as New York-Buffalo, New York-Boston, and New York-Washington was again available to the traveling public. The order canceling all sleeper lines less than 450 miles in length was promulgated in 1945 so that more sleepers would be available for troop train use as servicemen were brought back home after the end of World War II (which one boy in my fifth grade class called "World War Eleven," even though we had studied Roman numerals in the fourth grade)
Johnny.
'' . . . after the end of World War II (which one boy in my fifth grade class called "World War Eleven," even though we had studied Roman numerals in the fourth grade)''
Johnny - that's a candidate for the 'Humor' thread - although it could also be [mis]used to illustrate the sorry state of education today (the '[mis]' being that fact that I suspect it actually occurred quite a few years ago ?).
- Paul
If ever in Chicago visiting the community of Pullman and the Pullman visitor center is a must stop. Pullman built a model community with all the amentities including sewers and running water. About 1/2 square mile of it still exists including the hotel and portions of the factory. Every October there is a walking tour where many residents open their homes for inspection. The visitor center has a film about the company and many artifacts. Pullman always envisioned the entire project of making, owning and operating rail cars as well as the community as an investment and had numerous investors. Much ill will occured during the Pullman strike when he attempted to evict workers because they were affecting the investment bottom line. Around 1948 plus or minus a couple of years the government decided Pullman was a monopoly and forced them to give up ownership of the cars or the crewing and servicing of them. Most of the cars were sold to the railroadfs and operated and manned by Pullman porters. Obviously Pullman knew which was the lucrative end of the business. Pullman continued to make cars. I believe the last cars made by Pullman at their Hammond Indiana plant were the Amtrak Superliners.
Several sources I have heard and read say that at one time, averaging 100,000 passengers a night, Pullman was considered the world's largest hotel chain.
Deggesty CSSHEGEWISCH"The arrangement with the railroads was usually that Pullman provided the cars, fully furnished and staffed, and the railroads hauled them and provided heat and light. The railroad received the regular coach fare for each passenger, and Pullman received a supplement fare plus a charge for berth or seat occupancy." Hmm; I always had the impression that the railroad received the full value of the rail ticket, charging a higher fare because a sleeper could not carry as many passengers as a coach could, and thus attempting to gain as much revenue as possible from each car. With the first class tariff running perhaps 50% higher than coach, and a full load of about 20 passengers, the railfare income would be equivalent to that of 30 coach passengers--and a coach could carry 50-60 passengers. Well, well. Johnny
Problem is that - at least when Pullman both owned and operated the cars - you had two tickets not one. The train conductor collected your ticket for riding on the train, that fare went to the railroad. The Pullman conductor collected the ticket for your berth or compartment, that money went to Pullman. All the Pullman employees on the Pullman cars reported to the Pullman conductor and were paid by Pullman. (BTW they weren't just the sleeping car stewards. Pullman also owned and operated diners, club cars, parlor cars and such.)
wjstixProblem is that - at least when Pullman both owned and operated the cars - you had two tickets not one. The train conductor collected your ticket for riding on the train, that fare went to the railroad. The Pullman conductor collected the ticket for your berth or compartment, that money went to Pullman. All the Pullman employees on the Pullman cars reported to the Pullman conductor and were paid by Pullman. (BTW they weren't just the sleeping car stewards. Pullman also owned and operated diners, club cars, parlor cars and such.)
After the Pullman Company was split up, first class passengers still had to have two tickets--the railroad ticket for the transportation and the Pullman ticket for the space. I began riding first class (when I could afford it) in 1962--and, even after 12/31/68 when the railroads began operating the first class service, I had a separate ticket for the space I occupied. If you traveled first class only a part of the way on a particular road, you still needed only one coupon for that road.
In December of 1968, my mother and I rode the Silver Comet from Washington to Birmingham. When the conductors came into our bedroom, I said, "Here's my transportation and our space; my mother has her transportation (she was riding on a pass)." My transportation (and hers) had two coupons--one each for the RF&P and SCL; the space ticket had one coupon.
In the spring of 1969, I rode first class from Washington to Cincinnati on the C&O. I had one coupon in my rail ticket--but two in my space ticket because I had to transfer from one car to another in Charlottesville.
The IC was different; in 1970 I bought, in advance, transportation and space from St. Louis to New Orleans, and I had a single ticket. Because the Wabash Cannonball got me to St. Louis too late for me to make my connection (a freight train that had broken in two delayed us), I had to buy a separate ticket the next morning so I could get back home in time, and I returned the ticket that was good for both transportation and a roomette; my money was refunded in full since I explained why I was a no show.
Until Amtrak was able to rework the tariffs, the practices of the railroads were continued. If you rode the California Zephyr all the way from Chicago to Oakland, you had three coupons in your transportation ticket and one in your space ticket; if you took the through sleeper from Los Angeles to New York City, you had a coupon for the SP, one for the Southern, and one for the PC--and one separate ticket for the roomette or bedroom.
Now, if you stay on one train all the way, but use a sleeper only part of the way, Amtrak considers each sleeper part and each coach part to be a separate leg.
Paul_D_North_Jr '' . . . after the end of World War II (which one boy in my fifth grade class called "World War Eleven," even though we had studied Roman numerals in the fourth grade)'' Johnny - that's a candidate for the 'Humor' thread - although it could also be [mis]used to illustrate the sorry state of education today (the '[mis]' being that fact that I suspect it actually occurred quite a few years ago ?). - Paul
Paul_D_North_JrConductor Moedinger rides again Trains, June 1976 page 22 working as a Pullman conductor
Once I again, I shall weary the readers.
Conductor Moedinger made (to my wife and me) a wonderful observation on the first page of this installment:
"No doubt about it, Americans have lost the art of traveling. Anything that smacks of the good life, or remotely suggests comfort, in getting from one geographic location to another is lost on them. They prefer the discomfort and inconvenience of sitting three abreast--in what the late Lucius Beebe aptly described as a portable pigsty--to the luxury of a drawing room complete with upholstered armchairs and private toilet facilities. They prefer consuming food (or what passes for food) served in lap trays in a carhop, hamburger-joint atmosphere to dining in a civilized manner from a linen-covered table in surroundings suggestive of the world's more respectable eating establishments. They prefer a third-rate movie to a firsthand encounter with the more picturesque features of the face of America as seen from the broad picture window of a Pullman or a dining car."
And, it has become worse in the last thirty-three years. My wife adds that when you travel by the preferred means of long-distance transport you hope that the passenger in front of you will not lean back, and that it is impossible to carry on a conversation because of the noise of the transport.
Johnny, thanks for remembering and posting that !
And that was before the more recently added inconveniences and insults such as 'per bag' fees, lost luggage, being trapped on the plane due to delays, space that only a contortionist could love for such a long time period, having to share 'personal space' with other people with all kinds of ailments, afflictions, and discomforts, etc., etc.
It's a good thing that Mr. B never had to endure the present-day airport security screening and 'shoes-off' routine, either - can you imagine the resulting diatribe or 'Letter to the Editor' of the New York Times ? I think I'd pay handsomely to see or read that one ! Thanks again.
Lucius Beebe would also have a problem with anything on rails which postdated 1931. I'm sure that he would pen a vitriolic letter to the powers that be about the level of service on the Acelas.
As a kid, I made many summertime trips between New York City and Sydney, Nova Scotia, to spend my vacation on my grandparents farm. I remember the railroad and Pullman tickets were yards long! How they did that, without a computer, I can't fathom. We did New haven (from either NYG or NYP) to BOS, taxied to BON, B&M to POR, MEC to Vanceboro, ME/McAdam, NB, CPR to Saint John, NB, and CNR the rest of the way. I'm not sure where the CPR took over the train. Could have been at Mattawamkeag, ME, but that happened in the dark of night. We traveled on "The Gull" and had thru Pullman service from BON to Sydney, our car switching trains at Truro, NS.
My shortest Pullman rides were from Harmon, NY (now CRT) to Canton, NY. I went to college in Canton at St. Lawrence U.. I majored in hockey, beer, and sleep and aktchu'lly lasted five semesters ('56-'59)! The New York Central had thru Pullman (or maybe company-owned) sleeping car service, which joined the St. Lawrence Division at either Syracuse or Utica, NY, depending on the train. The other train was a RDC lash-up, a "Beeliner", in NYC parlance, and was the 'day train'. Not as much fun, but got us home quicker for Thanksgiving. Cut Wednesday classes! Change at Utica, or Syracuse, depending... All of them went thru Watertown.
Hays
BNSFwatcherAs a kid, I made many summertime trips between New York City and Sydney, Nova Scotia, to spend my vacation on my grandparents farm. I remember the railroad and Pullman tickets were yards long! How they did that, without a computer, I can't fathom. We did New haven (from either NYG or NYP) to BOS, taxied to BON, B&M to POR, MEC to Vanceboro, ME/McAdam, NB, CPR to Saint John, NB, and CNR the rest of the way. I'm not sure where the CPR took over the train. Could have been at Mattawamkeag, ME, but that happened in the dark of night. We traveled on "The Gull" and had thru Pullman service from BON to Sydney, our car switching trains at Truro, NS.
That was a trip I wish could have taken. When I was beginning to navigate the Guide, in 1951, I studied the through train arrangements carefully, and I noted that the B&M carried the Gull between Portland and Vanceboro, and the CP carried the train between there and St. John. At that time the CP had trackage rights over the B&M between Mattawamkeag and Vanceboro and used these rights for its Montreal-St. John trains; in later years the B&M sold that part to the CP.
Your Boston-Sydney car must have been summer season service; I have no summer Guides from the forties and early fifties, so I have no mention of this line. Night Trains does not mention this service (it does name the Gull), but I have learned that what is not said (and even some of what is said) in this book is not absolute. Now, sad to say, Sydney is off the track for passenger service. For a while, VIA did operate a one day a week train to Sydney and then back to Halifax the next day. Apparently the hope for traffic was little more than a hope.
As to NYC service to Upstate New York, you still used Pullman-operated cars in your salad days. I do not remember the date, but, as I recall, it was about 1960 that NYC began operating the first class cars that ran on its lines only.
I am looking at the Canadian Narional Railways/Grand Trunk Railway System 'System Timetable' of 25 April 1954, the first year of the CN green, black, and gold dress, with a CLC "C-liner" on the cover. Unfortunately, I cut out the maple leaf herald from the front of the loco to use on a model. Muy estupido, but I was a kid! On page 11, Timetable 28A, is the schedule for "The Gull". It reads, as follows, eastbound numbers first:
23 - 8 B&M, BON-POR; 114 - 113 MEC, POR-Vanceboro, ME; CPR, Vanceboro, ME to Saint John, NB, Trains 14 & 13; CNR Trains 60 and 59, Saint John, NB to Halifax, NS. It shows the connection to Sydney, NS. The "Express" train to Sydney was #s 7 & 8, Table 43. I don't know if the service changed in the winter. I was in Sydney on the last day of service in 1989. A bunch of protesters chained themselves to the tracks. The RDC did not operate, and buses were brought in! Two days later, I was in Saint John when the last CNR train arrived. The folks were not happy. I didn't plan the trip around these events! If I had known, I would have brought some guns!
Train
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