QUOTE: Originally posted by Mark W. Hemphill Three comments: 1. Almost ANY activity public or private is associated with terrorism. Using a cell phone, traveling on an airplane, moving your household goods, and using hand tools have all been definitively linked to a terrorist act in recent years (Madrid, 9/11, Timothy McVeigh, and the Unabomber). 2. Railroads are vulnerable to sabotage, but that's not the same thing as terrorism. Sabotage is intended to cause economic or military disruption (which can often be the same thing). Terrorism is intended to cause rapid political change. Sabotage is an additive act; each event degrades an enemy and even small events are useful if there's enough of them. Terrorism doesn't work unless each outrage tops the last one: a public rapidly gets inured to little catastrophes. Any event of lesser caliber than 9/11 would probably be non-motivational to the U.S. public at this point--it would at most reinforce, not change, the course of national policy--and a train derailment or bombing is unlikely to be big enough to match 9/11. Terrorist actions against railroads in the U.S. would very quickly look like sabotage in that resources would be reallocated to prevent them, but they would not significantly change national policy. For that, a terrorist has to do another 9/11 or something even larger. The technology of railroading doesn't lend itself to that very well. 3. A national ID card system for rail photography is more akin to a concealed weapons permit than a hunting license. A hunting license is a system of positive value that taxes hunters to pay for game-management programs: the hunter gets something of value. A concealed weapons permit is a system of negative value; it verifies the possessor is not a criminal and is allows him or her to engage in an activity that has great potential for harm. So first, a photography permit would weed out anyone with any errors in judgement in the past or any unfortunate associations. Second, it would probably be highly conditional with restrictions of location, timing, and situation -- just as a concealed weapons permit doesn't get a gun onto an airplane, a rail photography permit is likely to permanently prohibit all sorts of places deemed sensitive. Third, because the possessor in effect is granted a get-out-of-jail-free card, the permit would be avidly sought by miscreants (if it had ANY value at all). Thus, it's likely that very few would be granted. Fourth, and most importantly, it would probably bear with it a requirement for a higher standard of conduct; e.g., anyone with a permit caught trespassing or speeding or taking photos off-limits or what have you would probably face severe penalties and permanent revocation of the permit. A permit system is more likely to result in the permanent loss of photographic privledges for some, and significant loss of privledges for all, than it is to free anyone from the worry of being arrested or interrogated, albeit temporarily. Moreover, just the very act of asking the government for a permit system will bring organized, top-down scrutiny of rail photography instead of the current ad hoc, localized scrutiny, and the result might not be a permit but instead a permanent prohibition. Those are all observations. An opinion: a railfan permit will not return anyone's world to the way it was pre-9/11. This is a solution that should be looked at with great caution, if one would even call it a solution at all.
QUOTE: Originally posted by macguy QUOTE: I'd love some sort of ID, especially if it had an official flavor to it. Then, if you were sitting in an appropriate area, watching the action, and were challenged, you could show the ID and say "It's OK officer..." Of course, I'm sure that getting the ID would involve somehow acknowleging that you shouldn't trespass, etc, etc; so getting caught doing so would be that much worse. That's what it talks about in the above article about NJ Transit. Before you take pictures they want you to fill out an application and send it in to NJT and then they will send a copy of your "license" (free by the way) to you. Who knows what kind of info they want from you in order to issue a license...
QUOTE: I'd love some sort of ID, especially if it had an official flavor to it. Then, if you were sitting in an appropriate area, watching the action, and were challenged, you could show the ID and say "It's OK officer..." Of course, I'm sure that getting the ID would involve somehow acknowleging that you shouldn't trespass, etc, etc; so getting caught doing so would be that much worse.
QUOTE: Originally posted by kevinstheRRman [br OK- NOW PROOVE that the Attack on the USA is going to cause a political change. It didn't / wasn't going to. If you recall correctly Post 9/11 beofre Iraq, support for Bush was it's highest yet. How does that go for Political change? You wanted the same person beofre the attack as you did after the attack You know what that is defined as? A change in Quantum leap porportions. Assuming some of you never took astro physicas, A Quantam leap, mathematically expressed, is a small step, a very small step or a barely visable movement. therfore, that debunks your Terrorisim political change idea. Terriorisim and Political change on Pearson's R scale Rank pretty Low, 0.25-0.3 Pearson used and invented this theory to rank how weall obeject A Corrilates (R) with object B In order for a Stron R, there has to be a Strong A (association) for example: Believe this or not, There is no R (R=Corrilation) in the amount of hours study, and the results on the exam\quiz\test, and this is a proven fact. R=0.15 Most likely you and your Wife have a Strong R (usually 0.85, or 0.9) the best you can get is a 1. So no, those two, don't go together.
QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon QUOTE: Originally posted by kevinstheRRman nahhh Terrorisim Is not intended to cause rapid political change. Don't take the Train bombing in spain, and suddenly say what all acts of terrorism are intended for. Indeed there was a massive politacal change in Spain, i agree, that may have been the intention in Spain, But you would have to do a lot of work proving that the Attack on NYC was to invoke a massive politcal change., or any other acts of terrorisim. 1-6-0-0 Of course terrorism is intended to affect political change. It is a form of warfare ( a detestable one and cowardly one) but a form of warfare nonetheless, and warfare is an instrument of political will. By attacking soft civilian targets, the intent is to strike fear (the political gain) and to disrupt routine and force the victim to commit additional resorrces that could be used in other places (a basic military tactic). The goal is to force the victim to either change national policies (end presence in the Mid East, Ireland, etc ) or achieve a shorter term goal (prisoner release, etc). The WTC attack by Al Queda was most assuredly based on ideology with a political motive. I agree with Mark, in that a railfan license is the wrong way to go, as it would be more of a concealed and carry permit, a get out of jail card, giving a rationale for being someplace and therefore open to abuse. Things ebb and flow and society goes through change and change again. I think this will eventually ease up .....and if anything else..like I always say..vote your conscience.
QUOTE: Originally posted by kevinstheRRman nahhh Terrorisim Is not intended to cause rapid political change. Don't take the Train bombing in spain, and suddenly say what all acts of terrorism are intended for. Indeed there was a massive politacal change in Spain, i agree, that may have been the intention in Spain, But you would have to do a lot of work proving that the Attack on NYC was to invoke a massive politcal change., or any other acts of terrorisim. 1-6-0-0
Dan
QUOTE: Originally posted by 88gta350 Rail lines, power plants, dams... they are all a means to an end for a terrorist. They will use any means neccesary to lash out at what they see as the greatest threat to their way of life, us. Does that mean we should ban photography of infrastructure? Insitute a national ID card? If we become that scared, then they have won. I'd rather live in a free country with an occasional terrorist attack, then live in lock down but feel safe.
Pump
"We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics
Nothing is more fairly distributed than common sense: no one thinks he needs more of it than he already has.
23 17 46 11
QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard Yeah, I forgot, a "real, highly trained terrorist" has to have super detailed photographs before they can begin to plan their attack, after all, it isnt like they can just ride the thing, and look for themselves....because we all know Homeland Security has managed to keep all of the bad guys out of the country, just like the dope sumgglers, and the illegal immigrants, stopped cold at the borders. Seig Heil....wait, uhhh, no, I guess it is the right goverment to say that to.
I'm back!
Follow the progress:
http://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/displayForumTopic/content/12129987972340381/page/1
QUOTE: Subways get shutter bugged (Originally published on May 21, 2004) By PETE DONOHUE NY DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITER Smiling will still be allowed on the subways, but - sorry, tourists - taking pictures may soon be banned. Transit officials, at the request of police, yesterday proposed prohibiting photography and videotaping in the subway system and on buses - hoping to thwart terrorists from gathering information for an attack. It's just one of several proposed revisions to the Transit Authority's Rules of Conduct that include these other hard-to-enforce no-nos: Walking between subway cars. Placing a foot on a subway seat, bus seat or a platform bench. Wearing skates, standing on a skateboard or riding a scooter. Violators could get slapped with tickets ranging from $25 to $100. "The world we live in has changed dramatically," TA President Lawrence Reuter said as he announced the first proposed revision of the rules in a decade. "These changes are intended to enhance security and safety." Some riders railed against the new rules, which must be approved by the full Metropolitan Transportation Authority Board. "All that stuff is just common New York behavior," said Patrick DeShond, 18, a college student from Brooklyn. "I think the city is so desperate for money that this is what it's come to." Others said some of the rule changes make sense - especially penalizing those who soil seats with dirty shoes. John Erboso, 46, a messenger from Queens, supported a photo ban, saying it's hard to tell a tourist from a terrorist. "You don't know who to trust anymore," he said. But Christopher Dunn, associate legal director of the New York Civil Liberties Union, called the photo ban "grossly excessive." "There is no reason a tourist taking a snapshot in a subway car should be interrogated by the police or face the prospect of being taken into custody," he added. NYPD Transportation Police Chief Michael Scagnelli said police would use discretion in issuing summonses to shutterbugs. But violators could be questioned and subjected to background checks, he said, and have their film confiscated. The TA said exemptions would be granted to the press, and others who have obtained "written authorization" from the agency to snap pictures. With Nick Lacher
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.