Fred Frailey mentions in his August entry that the public's sense of detachment from the big class one railroads is bordering on turning to hostility.
Do you think this is true? and if so do you think that the railroads should be doing something to try and change this?
I'M interested in hearing as many opinions on this as possible, especially from some of the more hard boiled members (you know who you are)
The proportion of the population who remembers train travel as the way to get people and things places is dropping daily. Boomers like myself, a significant portion of today's populace, knew the phenomenon only peripherally as highways and airplanes became the predominate transportation modes during our lifetimes.
Because of the disconnect that exists between people and trains as a method of transportation, I would tend to agree that things will only get worse. The railroads are in the unenviable position of trying to sell the public something that most will never use directly, but that they all rely on daily.
The only image the majority of the public has of railroads today is through the windshield, as they are delayed by a train (notice I didn't say "waiting for..."). The security we've been discussing elsewhere on the forum helps ensure that most of them never see any other aspect of railroad operation - those parts that help connect the train at the crossing to the goods being hauled or produced - it's all hidden from them in huge yards situated for minimal local impact, or inside factories that don't want publicity.
The railroads aren't going away, but I think that they face an uphill battle as more and more people don't understand their raison d'être.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
I'll start the replies to this very worthy question/thread.
I live in a town in northeast Ohio that is served by three railroads (CSX, W&LE, Akron-Barberton Cluster). They cut through the center of town and blow their horns for the crossings. They are present!
But, when I taught history at the local high school not once, ever, could any students name all 3. Few could name one. Railroads are not on their radar or that of their parents, or anyone else in town. Why?
Truthfully, I'm not sure (that's one of the points of this thread). But here's a try:
1. Names. Corporate names like CSX just mean nothing to people. Where's the romance or history in that, or BNSF? Thank goodness for Union Pacific! I would think that if a railroad wanted to raise public awareness of its existence that real names would help very much.
2. Employment. Though this is an old railroad town, there are no railroad jobs here. So they are not local employers.
3. No corporate sponsorships of anything local, however in my town the Akron-Barberton Cluster folks do a fine job of pulling a 3-car excursion train over their tracks for a local festival. This is a huge draw to the festival and is virtually the only contact with this railroad that the townspeople have, but it's one day a year.
4. Allow steam and excursion trains (I know, I know....lawyers and insurance). When steam trains have traversed our town hundreds of people line the tracks and talk about trains.
5. The railroads drag their feet for years when it comes to replacing bridges the public uses or even cooperating with local governments on such projects. The railroad bureaucracy is even more labrythine than local government. Why not take an expediting approach that the public would admire?
6. The railroads like the status quo. I really believe they want to be stealth industries and not noticed at all. I will say, they ask nothing of our governments on any level. They are close-lipped and avoid newspaper or tv publicity. When we had a big derailment on CSX a few months ago that knocked out a bridge in town we heard virtually nothing from CSX. We never did learn even the cause, nor what plans are in place in case of a major chemical spill. Nothing is done to reassure people about safety issues on the railroad.
Last thought: I do not sense hostility on the part of the public. Why would they be hostile? The railroads mean virtually nothing to anyone. The public is more accurately described, I think, by words like indifferent, disinterested, apathetic.
I hope this thread engenders many replies. It deserves it.
Convicted One I'M interested in hearing as many opinions on this as possible, especially from some of the more hard boiled members (you know who you are)
Doubt if my opinion is "hard boiled", and really that important, but....I've had similar thoughts as Fred Frailey does in his article.
I think the public's "sense of detachment" is really real....very much so.
I don't know what the railroads should do...if anything, but It's been my observation the public barely understands railroads are still here "doing the job" at hand, and if they happen to get in the public's way, be damned.
"They have no right to block that crossing", while switching some cars, etc.....No matter if the railroad has been there long before any hint of residences have been in such area. People just don't understand what railroads are doing...."still blocking my way here in our neighborhood" and so on.....
Quentin
Convicted One Fred Frailey mentions in his August entry that the public's sense of detachment from the big class one railroads is bordering on turning to hostility. Do you think this is true? and if so do you think that the railroads should be doing something to try and change this? I'M interested in hearing as many opinions on this as possible, especially from some of the more hard boiled members (you know who you are)
I drive I-40 frequently and as I see the BNSF piggybacks and doublestacks more than a mile long I am greatful all of that is not imparing my trip. At rest stops others share that same view with me. Perhaps Mr. Frailey would choose to share specifics about the 'hostility'.
To your first question: Yes.
To your second question: Of course. It would be foolhardy to ignore it. But it is not easy or simple, and to actually effect a change may not even be possible.
RWM
I haven't seen Fred's article myself yet but obviously there is discord between the public and the freight railroad industry sadly enough and needlessly so. I think some railroads such as CSXT and Norfollk Southern have done a good job of getting ads on CNN and Fox but to bridge the gap, the industry somehow has to figure out how to take it to another level. When I was in high school back in the 70's, I used to go to our library in my hometown and I would always pour over the WWII-era National Geographic magazines as they had tons of railroad advertisements; particularly from my favorite railroad, the Milwaukee Road. Granted, I realize things have changed much since then; particularly now with Amtrak handling intercity passenger service. But you take a closer look at some of those ads and you can easily detect the pride the railroads had back then of serving their territory. Some of the MILW ads from that time are simply very, very good. I really believe that the industry has to use all mediums and freaking ADVERTISE and get themselves known again. It has to be done in a way that will beneifit and promote their business purposes but at the same time be cool and "hip" enough to attract the younger set. It can be done. Is there anyone out there smart enough to do it?
No, for the public in general - but yes, anyway.
My sense is that the people who are hostile towards railroads are those small numbers ['minorities' in a numerical - not a racial - sense'] who are -
1. Living near a grade crossing, yard, or active line, and have to put up with the horn, crashing couplers, and other train noise and dust, especially at night;
2. Delayed frequently by trains at grade crossings; or,
3. Annoyed by long lines of stored freight cars nearby, weed-spraying, and anything else that gets 'their shorts in a knot' over some special concern or issue.
Otherwise, the public is indifferent and apathetic about railroads - 'They don't know and they don't care'. As someone else said a long time ago - ''What -are they still around ?''
The recent ads by CSX have elicited as much comment about railroads as I've ever received from those who know I'm interested. Lest we forget, NS also had several recent series' - 'The Lonely Gas Can' was last summer, I believe - and a couple of years ago even UP had several ads on radio and TV. No one else, though, to the best of my knowledge.
But CSX is the current champ - its ads are not just talking about the freight business, but emphasizing how it reduces truck traffic on the roads - ''Each train carries the equivalent of 280 trucks'', helps the environment, and so the rest of us = the public. Note - those CSX ads are not just on TV - they also sponsor some programs on National Public Radio, such as ''Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me'', the weekly news-quiz game show. As such, the ads are likely reach a more informed and erudite segment of the public [IMHO].
- Paul North.
NKP guyBut, when I taught history at the local high school not once, ever, could any students name all 3. Few could name one. Railroads are not on their radar or that of their parents, or anyone else in town. Why?
NKP guy. Employment. Though this is an old railroad town, there are no railroad jobs here. So they are not local employers. 3. No corporate sponsorships of anything local, however in my town the Akron-Barberton Cluster folks do a fine job of pulling a 3-car excursion train over their tracks for a local festival. This is a huge draw to the festival and is virtually the only contact with this railroad that the townspeople have, but it's one day a year.4. Allow steam and excursion trains (I know, I know....lawyers and insurance). When steam trains have traversed our town hundreds of people line the tracks and talk about trains.5. The railroads drag their feet for years when it comes to replacing bridges the public uses or even cooperating with local governments on such projects. The railroad bureaucracy is even more labrythine than local government. Why not take an expediting approach that the public would admire?6. The railroads like the status quo. I really believe they want to be stealth industries and not noticed at all. I will say, they ask nothing of our governments on any level. They are close-lipped and avoid newspaper or tv publicity. When we had a big derailment on CSX a few months ago that knocked out a bridge in town we heard virtually nothing from CSX. We never did learn even the cause, nor what plans are in place in case of a major chemical spill. Nothing is done to reassure people about safety issues on the railroad.Last thought: I do not sense hostility on the part of the public. Why would they be hostile? The railroads mean virtually nothing to anyone. The public is more accurately described, I think, by words like indifferent, disinterested, apathetic.
. Employment. Though this is an old railroad town, there are no railroad jobs here. So they are not local employers.
I feel there are a number of good points raised in the above post and I will give my own, Canadian, perspective on some of them
The first point about being able to name local railroads may be a rural/urban thing. I have to say that people I've met over the years who come from a rural background in the prairie provinces generally seem to be plugged in about which railway's are around. I think when you grow up on a farm, or in a small town or village, you pay attention to who is pulling the grain hoppers away from the elevators. Whereas city dwellers are obviously more disconnected from the day to day activities of the railway's.
As for the importance of local employment, Calgary has always been a centre of employment for the CPR, even before its' headquarters was moved here. But there is no denying that you can run a railway with far fewer people than you used to, so many people no longer have a neighbour who works for CP or CN.
As to sponsorship of local events I think it at a low point now because of the current economic situation. But if you are into that sort of thing, CN recently sponsored a major horse jumping competition. And the CPR has helped Heritage Park with a major new display there. As for the excursions, CP has their Royal Canadian Pacific tour train, but I think it runs about the same price as five or six mortgage payments on an average size home, so as a consequence very few people actually get to ride it.
Point 5 above is the item I really wanted to talk about. I had said in a post almost a year ago that if railways want to receive government help to expand their freight infrastructure they need to start thinking in terms of cooperating with public transportation agencies to help sell their plans to the public. If individual members of the public can't use something themselves, they are much less likely to support it, even if improved transportation benefited their employers.
There is a situation in Calgary that is going to come home to roost one day soon. The CPR is eventually going to need a double track mainline leaving west from the city, and it is going to be a very difficult project. To get a line from Sunalta to Keith, or if you are looking at a road map, from where the Crowchild Trail crosses the mainline and the Bow River, to the rail-yard north of Bowness Park, it will have to pass through an area with both significant geographical and environmental challenges. In fact, just the other day a "sky is falling" type was going on about soil erosion in the area, although he didn't mention that it was affecting the track.
When the time comes for the CPR to ask the various levels of government for permission or financial assistance to do this project, I will be incredibly annoyed if the project doesn't include some sort of heavy rail public transportation component to get a line to Cochrane. I think the provision of a service the public can use is going to be a necessary part of getting approval for such a project. If there is no public transportation component to this endeavor, then I feel it will be an abdication of government responsibility and possibly corrupt.
I had planned to go on, but I find I've run out of time. I will just add that in certain circumstances, I've known of various times where the railways enjoy their stealth industry status just a little too much. And the last sentence of the quote above seems to me to be bang on.
AgentKid
So shovel the coal, let this rattler roll.
"A Train is a Place Going Somewhere" CP Rail Public Timetable
"O. S. Irricana"
. . . __ . ______
tree68The proportion of the population who remembers train travel as the way to get people and things places is dropping daily.
As are the riders themselves. (bad joke)
tree68Boomers like myself, a significant portion of today's populace, knew the phenomenon only peripherally as highways and airplanes became the predominate transportation modes during our lifetimes.
Quite true, unless you happen to live in a city that has commuter rail (like Chicago); in those locations property values INCRAESE the closer they are to Metra. Those folks are very much aware of the trains.
tree68The railroads are in the unenviable position of trying to sell the public something that most will never use directly
Now in a city like Milwaukee that has zero passenger rail (unless you count the Amtrak Hiawatha to Chicago) and barely any freight traffic, you are quite correct.
People notice trains when they are waiting at a crossing. It is getting now that people dont notice a fire rescue vehicle until it is on top of them. People are in their own world,my world includes trains theirs mostly does not.
I think it is just part of the growing bias against anything industrial. Many people have a disconnect between their modern lifestyle and what it takes to maintain that lifestyle. The goods they use and consume come from a store, or maybe are ordered on line. They don't think much about how a product is made or grown, how or where it's manufactured/processed or the transportation involved from raw materials to finished product. They themselves don't work or are close to knowing anyone working in the chain. All they know is that everytime they go to the store there is products to buy, that when they turn on the switch the lights come on.
Thinking that way makes it easy to be against anything that is inconvenient to them. Something that is noisy, smelly, is visually displeasing or takes away 5 minutes of their "valuable" time is something that shouldn't be in their neighborhood. Better yet, the further away the better because there was something on the internet about how dangerous things really are.
I think as long as the general population becomes more disconnected with all but the end product of what it takes to live, hostility and/or indifference will only grow. Not only for railroads, but all industry in general.
Jeff
Convicted OneFred Frailey mentions in his August entry that the public's sense of detachment from the big class one railroads is bordering on turning to hostility. Do you think this is true? and if so do you think that the railroads should be doing something to try and change this? I'M interested in hearing as many opinions on this as possible, especially from some of the more hard boiled members (you know who you are)
Speaking as someone in Chicago, there is a sense of detachment from the big class one railroads. Right now, it's indifference, but one spark could turn it into hostility. This happened when CN took over the EJ&E. The "people, not freight" signs were all over Barrington and surrounding towns.
The railroads like to think that they're a "stealth" industry, but they are dependent on the goodwill of the communities they pass through. If the community is indifferent, the only people who care are NIMBYs and wonks.
The railroads need to address public indifference. Some of the things they can do:
A. Be visible. Get a steam engine and run it on excursions. Sponsor things. Get onto TV.
B. Support the local railroad enthusiasts in any way they can.
C. Push Operation Lifesaver; make it more visible. Show the gruesome grade crossing accident videos to selected audiences.
D. Get their name where the people are.
E. Cooperate with local authorities. Let them know that the railroad exists.
F. Move your headquarters to a place where you're going to need favors from people. The authorities are going to be more responsive to a local CEO than to someone who "parachutes" in when they need something.
Getting back to CN - EJ & E, CN would have had much less opposition if they brought in a steam locomotive lettered "Canadian National" and ran excursions from Barrington to Ravinia Park (and back). And CN would have really won friends by saying "now that the excursions with X are done, we're donating the steamer to IRM in Union in running order."
NKP guy Last thought: I do not sense hostility on the part of the public. Why would they be hostile? The railroads mean virtually nothing to anyone. The public is more accurately described, I think, by words like indifferent, disinterested, apathetic.
Well actually, it's human nature to have contempt for that which we do not understand, whenever confronted by it.
And the general population might be confronted by a railroad (or more likely by the press's coverage of a RR related issue) in the following ways:
1. An Abo canyon like issue
2. A DME/Mayo Clinic like issue
3. A Global 3 like (where to build?) issue
4. car/pedestrian gets hit by train
5. A community vs loud horns issue
When people are forced to contemplate an entity that presents a down side, they tend to build contempt for the target, it's in our "wiring"
And, we've witnessed some threads right here, that ignited their fair share of contempt, that are directly keyed into this thought process, remember the "team track" thread that was started by an intentional trouble maker? it still adresses the reality that the railroads have made themself into something that presents very little (direct) utility to the general public. If Joe citizen were to approach a railroad for a competitive quote to ship something across country (trying to beat a truck quote) My bet is there will soon be contempt from Joe after the railroad treats him with the indifference we both know he will receive.
So, there is ample opportunity for hostility to rise, and lets face it, taxpayer relations is something the RR's MUST be conscious of
Plus, I believe there is an awareness out there (perhaps among a slim minority) that the reason why the taxpayers are harnessed with amtraks losses, is because the freight railroads were given a free pass.
I think that I have to agree with a lot of other people on here that have said before, the general public is more indifferent than actually hostile towards the railroads. Also like you've said, most people are afraid of what they don't understand, and since most people do not understand the railroad, they fear it, or become angry at it. I, for one, respect and understand that the railroads are there for a purpose, to move goods and freight from point A to point B and do it as cost-effectively as possible. Most people just see the railroads as something that gets in their way, that prevents them from getting from point A to point B, but they put up with it simply because "most" people know that its a whole lot harder to get the railroad to move as compared to their personal vehicle.
diningcar The detachment as explained above is understandable but hostility seams to be a 'reach'. .. Perhaps Mr. Frailey would choose to share specifics about the 'hostility'.
The detachment as explained above is understandable but hostility seams to be a 'reach'. .. Perhaps Mr. Frailey would choose to share specifics about the 'hostility'.
Abo Canyon? Rochester Mn? Covington KY? McKean county pennsylvania? etc etc?
I would not use the term 'contempt' to describe what the average person feels when confronted with, inconvenienced, or presented with, either literally or figuratively, anything about railroads. Bemusement in some cases, indifference, hostility probably, genuine interest, delight in a few cases....
It seems to me that contempt is a feeling one has for something judged inferior in some way, something defective or deficient when the remedy is apparently within the power of the operator to improve or rectify generally. I can't see many reasonably smart business people, transportation workers, commuters, and such judging trains to be somehow defective, deficient, immoral, corrupt, or their operators inept, uncaring....all those terms that would leave the average person in contempt of someone or something as they would a more unseemly business such as petthy theft, car-jacking, prostitution, child abuse, fraud, bullying, and so on. I don't believe that people hold in contempt what they don't understand. They generally fear it as a first reaction, and then they villify it in order to bolster and justify their desire to do it damage as a way to reduce its unwanted effects on them. If there is contempt, it is when their target is finally vanquished. Hence the Roman aphorism, "Woe to the vanquished."
My thoughts of a small part of the discussion.
-Crandell
Convicted One diningcar The detachment as explained above is understandable but hostility seams to be a 'reach'. .. Perhaps Mr. Frailey would choose to share specifics about the 'hostility'. Abo Canyon? Rochester Mn? Covington KY? McKean county pennsylvania? etc etc?
Rochester, Minn., a special interest situation (a very special one in this case) but no hostility which inspires a large following.
Don't know about the other two which may make my point. Where is the large interest and hostility beyond a twenty mile radius? And I have not heard of etc etc but surely they must have significance.
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
A little local flap: http://www.wdt.net/article/20090723/NEWS05/307239957
And I have to ask - ''What part of quite obviously drastically underpowering a train - so much that it evidently regularly stalls on that grade and curve - is helpful to or efficient for the railroad, and reflects good management [Q]''
If the 'fix' is just doing what should have been done in the first place anyway, like sending out more power - but now only after the time and energy has already been wasted in the futile attempt, and maybe with now needing a 2nd 'crew start' as well - then it's hard to see what has been gained, and the locals have been greatly aggravated. If the 'fix' is something else - like 'doubling the hill ' - then why isn't that being ordered in advance to avoid the delays to both train and locals [Q]
Not covering themselves with glory here, whichever it is, that's for sure.
CShaveRR "CSX...hauling 280 truckloads of whatever business UP and BNSF want to give us." (sorry, )
Or, '' . . . that NS lets us have.'' [Q] Good one, Carl.
- PDN.
Amtrak is a political (financial) football which is a neat target because so many communities so not have service, so hate the Amtrak or the "railroad" for taking precious $$$ away from the highway lobby! Or is the railroad the tourist line over in the next county that is bringing in all that out of town money? Or is it that those tracks (or is it that track?) through town actually carry important traffic that otherwise would be on the highway...but wait a minute, no trains stop here, so why should I be concerned? Americans are opposed to anything they are told will cost them money or is otherwise percieved as an inconvenienct to them. If they don't derive a direct benefit it is easy to be ignorant of the importance of the train and track and therefore opposed to anything pro rail. in this case.
When railroads went out of the passenger business and closed the local depot, the railroad left town and therefore, out of sight-out of mind, out of the population's sphere of need and careing.
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Paul_D_North_JrAnd I have to ask
Track speed on this particular line used to be 40 (with the usual slow zones), now it's 25. One crew could make the entire trip. Now two is routine, and any hangup will make that three.
There used to be two round-trip through trains a day. Now there's one. There used to be a couple of locals out of the local yard. Now there's one. And the one remaining through trip in each direction is sometimes expected to do local switching as well.
Wanna buy a railroad? It's for sale.
selector They generally fear it as a first reaction, and then they villify it in order to bolster and justify their desire to do it damage as a way to reduce its unwanted effects on them.
They generally fear it as a first reaction, and then they villify it in order to bolster and justify their desire to do it damage as a way to reduce its unwanted effects on them.
Yes, yes, I think that you have captured the essential flow quite well. the hostility is a support tool they use to validate their negativity.....
diningcar Abo Canyon, just a person or two with enough money to hire lawyers and raise enviormental issues. Rochester, Minn., a special interest situation (a very special one in this case) but no hostility which inspires a large following. Don't know about the other two which may make my point. Where is the large interest and hostility beyond a twenty mile radius? And I have not heard of etc etc but surely they must have significance.
Abo Canyon, just a person or two with enough money to hire lawyers and raise enviormental issues.
Not sure if you are purposefully ignoring the obvious here, or what? But with something as big, noisy, and dirty as a train, your hypothetical "twenty mile radius"s, are everywhere\\ including both etc as well as etc...
There is a place in St Paul Minnesota called Choo Choo Bob's; it has things that may interest railfans but mostly it is geared towards kids.The place sells Thomas The Tank products among others. A lot of parents buy Thomas for their kids,take their kids to see Thomas and Thomas is one of the most popular toys for kids. How many of these parents who flock to Choo Choo Bob's have ever taken their kids to watch trains. Trains are more than Thomas and the Isle of Sodor.
I was fortunate that my Mom took me trackside to watch trains but also rode trains and I still have memories of the Zephyrs Hiawathas and 400s.She also bought me a Lionel electric train. Trains have become a life long hobby for me because someone took me trackside. Ask your Model Railroad readers if you would be in that hobby if someone had not taken you trackside. The future of this hobby is the kids at Choo Choo Bob's.
Wow - very valid point and insight. I forgot all about Thomas and his companions (he arrived after our daughter grew up, so no personal exposure to him). So that's probably the image that most people have in mind when they think about railroads and trains - reportedly the Thomas the Tank Engine events at the Strasburg RR are hugely popular and very crowded. But nothing to do with today's railroading as we know it. What a missed opportunity for the Class I's to make a positive association while the crowds are waiting in line, etc.
henry6When railroads went out of the passenger business and closed the local depot, the railroad left town and therefore, out of sight-out of mind, out of the population's sphere of need and careing.
Bingo! RRs are like water and sewer. Nobody notices until something breaks.
I'd also argue that the main point of contact between the RRs and tbe public is OLI and their message is fundamentally negative: "Stay off the tracks!"
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
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