I here the railroad's are having some problems with the GEVO's. What's going on?
turbochargers are exploding
We were notified about a week ago by operating bullitin that at high rpm the internals of the turbocharger could disintigrate sending shrapnel through the turbo's housing. We have been advised not to walk within the area of the turbocharger when running at high rpm until the problem is resolved.
Yes they are exploding.
From what I have been hearing CSX and NS is going to temporary retire them untill they get fixed. Anyone else hear anything about that.
Kevin
oskar From what I have been hearing CSX and NS is going to temporary retire them untill they get fixed. Anyone else hear anything about that. Kevin
So, is this counting all the GEVO's CSX and NS have, or is it just the ones that have the problem?
cptrainmanWe were notified about a week ago by operating bullitin that at high rpm the internals of the turbocharger could disintigrate sending shrapnel through the turbo's housing
Why is it that turbo chargers have been coming apart since they were first invented?. Used to happen on DC-7s a lot. Every few years the wheel has to be invented all over?
wrawroacx So, is this counting all the GEVO's CSX and NS have, or is it just the ones that have the problem?
All those built from January 1, 2007 on have to be inspected, plus any that have received a replacement turbo since then. The suspect parts were made by one of two subcontractors to GE, so not all will need replacing, but as I understand it you have to take the turbo out of the locomotive before you can inspect the turbochager shaft which is at the heart of the problem. Over 1000 locomotives are involved. At all seven Class I railroads plus Iowa Interstate, and all three Mexican Railroads.
Sounds like a subcontractor provided substandard parts?
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACD Sounds like a subcontractor provided substandard parts?
BOOM!
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blue streak 1 cptrainmanWe were notified about a week ago by operating bullitin that at high rpm the internals of the turbocharger could disintigrate sending shrapnel through the turbo's housing Why is it that turbo chargers have been coming apart since they were first invented?. Used to happen on DC-7s a lot. Every few years the wheel has to be invented all over?
Are you really surprised that a powertrain component that spins at extremely high RPMs and is propelled by high pressure exhaust gases would occasionaly fail?
"I Often Dream of Trains"-From the Album of the Same Name by Robyn Hitchcock
No - but what's 'occasionally' mean in this context ? Once every 10 years or so for a unit, or maybe a couple a year system-wide - or most of the fleet within a single year ?
blue streak 1 has a good point - this is now a mature science. It rarely happens on airliners, but the cost/ damages consequences there are obviously far worse, so of course those are built better, inspected more often, and maintained more carefully. But what about the turbos on some trucks, high-performance cars, and the like - and esp. EMD locomotives ? If turbo failures are as routine and expected as you seem to suggest, they would be a lot more common than they seem to be, no ? That contrast indicates that this is more likely a 'defective component' problem than one of the 'it comes with the [high-powered] territory' kind of thing.
- Paul North.
Yes it is true that some truck turbos blow apart. I had 1 of our Mack engine blow the turbo right off the manifold. Most of the time just the compressor wheel blows apart. That is most likely caused by an over boost situation mostly on an old mechanical engine. Newer electronic engines seem to make the turbos last longer plus the fact most are using waste gates now. We still have failures but not so common any more. We have several Cat C15 engines that have been overhauled twice still strutting the original turbos after 1.5 million miles of real hard service. They are way better than the newer Acert engines with the twin turbos. I had one spit an exhaust manifold sleeve and take out both turbos. Sometimes I think only so much improvement can be done and then it goes the wrong way fast. Its no wonder why Cat is dropping the truck engine line.
Pete
I pray every day I break even, Cause I can really use the money!
I started with nothing and still have most of it left!
Sounds like a bad batch of turbos however finding them is going to be a female dog. GE will more than likely replace EVERYONE from that subcontrator to makesure they get them all. It is more than likely an issue with a batch of wheels in the turbos BUT which ones so best way is replace them all to get them all.
blue streak 1Every few years the wheel has to be invented all over?
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
BaltACDSounds like a subcontractor provided substandard parts?
beaulieu [snip; emphasis added - PDN] 249 BNSF units have been reported as needing replacement Turbos, still a lot of locomotives to be inspected.
Wow - now there's an economic 'stimulus' for somebody . . .
Paul_D_North_Jr No - but what's 'occasionally' mean in this context ? Once every 10 years or so for a unit, or maybe a couple a year system-wide - or most of the fleet within a single year ? blue streak 1 has a good point - this is now a mature science. It rarely happens on airliners, but the cost/ damages consequences there are obviously far worse, so of course those are built better, inspected more often, and maintained more carefully. But what about the turbos on some trucks, high-performance cars, and the like - and esp. EMD locomotives ? If turbo failures are as routine and expected as you seem to suggest, they would be a lot more common than they seem to be, no ? That contrast indicates that this is more likely a 'defective component' problem than one of the 'it comes with the [high-powered] territory' kind of thing. - Paul North.
Spot on,
I'll bet the parts came from India or somewhere else in Asia.
Stock price reflects same. OK off topic...
Seriously, the other morning, I was listening to a train come thru town and as it approached the first of 2 crossings, I heard two whistle pulls and a bang as loud as a power line transformer blowing up from a lightening strike. 2 more whistle pulls came shortly after, I suppose as the train slid thru the crossing.
It sure had my imagination at work.
Ed
That subcontractor is going to have to pay GE a lot of money. All costs of replacing the turbos, plus GE's cost for all the bad turbos.
igoldberg That subcontractor is going to have to pay GE a lot of money. All costs of replacing the turbos, plus GE's cost for all the bad turbos.
If it doesn't bankrupt them.
Back when I was bending wrenches on Sams airborne assets, turbos were a time change item - if it had XXX flying hours, it came off and was replaced by a like serviceable item from stores. Waiting until it blew up wasn't a viable option if the failure was likely to occur five miles above the Pacific and a thousand miles from the nearest adequate runway.
Has anyone considered establishing a maximum operating time for railroad turbochargers?
Chuck {MSgt(ret) USAF)
Since the turbo failures are nowhere near universal, there must be some 'good' ones in there as well as the 'bad' ones. Plus, otherwise, why the need 'inspect' them ? Why not just pull them all, that were manufactured by the XYZ Turbo Co. and / or installed between date-1 and date-2 ?
A 'post-mortem' metalurgical analysis of both the failures and the survivors should point to what the difference is, what went wrong, and how to tell easily without having to scrap an acceptable turbo. That should reduce the costs considerably. Unlike Chuck's airplane example, waiting for a turbo failure to occur 'on the ground' is generally not a disaster about to happen.
One less 'downside' is that with the recession and all the stored locos, there's lot of spares to re-activate to cover for those that are out for turbo inspection and replacement.
Anybody know who made the turbos - could it have been GE itself ? Anyway, as long as the problem isn't in all the company's turbos - and they make turbos other than for railroad locos - they may be able to spread out the costs of the fixes over a much larger business base.
Paul_D_North_JrAnybody know who made the turbos - could it have been GE itself
Way back when, Elliot made the turbos for GE engines. GE makes them now. GE should have quite a bit of experience with gas turbines given their position in the jet engine business.
Paul_D_North_Jr Plus, otherwise, why the need 'inspect' them ? Why not just pull them all, that were manufactured by the XYZ Turbo Co. and / or installed between date-1 and date-2 ?
Plus, otherwise, why the need 'inspect' them ? Why not just pull them all, that were manufactured by the XYZ Turbo Co. and / or installed between date-1 and date-2 ?
Potentially defective turbochargers can be indentified by their serial numbers, which are documented for units that have never had their turbochargers replaced. However if a unit has had its turbocharger replaced at some point in the past, the replacement turbocharger needs to be inspected to determine its serial number.
Some further thoughts / questions -
Don't most or all of these GEVO units have the ''satellite-phone home'' system to report on and montior their condition in 'real time' ? Wouldn't that provide a way to keep track of how they're doing ?
Plus, once the 'likely suspects' are identified - can they be watched more closely, pending or deferring the need for actual replacement ? Does anyone know the actual failure mode for these - is it fatigue, wear and bearing, soft metal, etc. ? Some failure modes give advance warning and can be detected in advance; others - like metal fatigue and breakage of the blades from the shaft, etc. - may happen in just seconds, and progress rapidly and catastrophically.
I'm not a mechanical engineer - so this is subject to correction - but aren't some things like that monitored by bearing temperatures, vibrations, and periodic spectrographic analysis of the lube oil to see what's wearing out and leaving specific metal alloy traces in the oil ?
I'd guess that on a 2 million dollar loco, a turbo is worth between 50,000 and 200,000. To avoid having to replace that unnecessarily, would surely justify more intensive inspections, installing more sensors for vibration or temperature, more frequent lube oil tests, etc., up to a point.
Paul_D_North_Jr Some failure modes give advance warning and can be detected in advance; others - like metal fatigue and breakage of the blades from the shaft, etc. - may happen in just seconds, and progress rapidly and catastrophically.
Some failure modes give advance warning and can be detected in advance; others - like metal fatigue and breakage of the blades from the shaft, etc. - may happen in just seconds, and progress rapidly and catastrophically.
I suspect that if a given component fails, via either of those two modes, more frequently than it is expected to fail, the railroad and the manufacturer will (1) notice the frequency, (2) diagnose the cause, and (3) take corrective action.
tomikawaTT Back when I was bending wrenches on Sams airborne assets, turbos were a time change item - if it had XXX flying hours, it came off and was replaced by a like serviceable item from stores. Waiting until it blew up wasn't a viable option if the failure was likely to occur five miles above the Pacific and a thousand miles from the nearest adequate runway. Has anyone considered establishing a maximum operating time for railroad turbochargers? Chuck {MSgt(ret) USAF)
There is a big difference in spending taxpayers money for something that can fall out of the sky and spending private money on a failure that doesn't fall out of the sky, just creates a problem that had to be worked around and solved, as in moving the train that has had an engine failure to it's final destination.
Please remember that other locomotives have had major problems that were overcome. The one that comes to mind is the SD45's 20 cylinder 567 prime mover. A very popular, productive and long lived engine once the problem was resolved.
JayPotterPaul_D_North_Jr Some failure modes give advance warning and can be detected in advance; others - like metal fatigue and breakage of the blades from the shaft, etc. - may happen in just seconds, and progress rapidly and catastrophically. I suspect that if a given component fails, via either of those two modes, more frequently than it is expected to fail, the railroad and the manufacturer will (1) notice the frequency, (2) diagnose the cause, and (3) take corrective action.
When a turbo goes, does it completely stop the locomotive from moving? Or can it still move, but with less horsepower? What does it look like when one blows?
Thanks for answering my questions!
Justin
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