PNWRMNM Bucyrus, The NTSB is a political organization. They have a long list of wants/needs/got to haves for each mode. When something happens that seems to relate to something on their list they trot it out as you have seen in this case. I suspect the reason is that the media will carry the item in the immediate aftermath. The final reports get very little media play but do contain recommendations to the operator and the appropriate regulatory agencies. They usually respond in writing to the NTSB. If the operator or regulatory agency agrees and says "we will do that, or we have done that" NTSB is happy and closes the item as acceptible, if I remember the term correctly. If the operator or regulatory agency disagrees NTSB closes it as unacceptable and waits for the appropriate accident to trot it out again. It is all a political game. To their credit NTSB is very good at aircraft accidents and reconstructions but they give no thought to the cost or benefits of their recommendations. I think they are specificially prohibited from doing so, but am not sure of the law on that point. Mac
Bucyrus,
The NTSB is a political organization. They have a long list of wants/needs/got to haves for each mode. When something happens that seems to relate to something on their list they trot it out as you have seen in this case. I suspect the reason is that the media will carry the item in the immediate aftermath.
The final reports get very little media play but do contain recommendations to the operator and the appropriate regulatory agencies. They usually respond in writing to the NTSB. If the operator or regulatory agency agrees and says "we will do that, or we have done that" NTSB is happy and closes the item as acceptible, if I remember the term correctly. If the operator or regulatory agency disagrees NTSB closes it as unacceptable and waits for the appropriate accident to trot it out again.
It is all a political game. To their credit NTSB is very good at aircraft accidents and reconstructions but they give no thought to the cost or benefits of their recommendations. I think they are specificially prohibited from doing so, but am not sure of the law on that point.
Mac
DC Metro has had a history of scrambling for money just to maintain there level of operations, let alone come up with money to fund 'improvements' that won't necessarily either increase service or decrease costs.
In some instances the NTSB final reports have been swayed by politics.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
When you consider the volume of passengers, Metro has a pretty good safety record which is much better than driving on the roads in the Washington area (which probably takes years off of people's lives due to pure stress level). No transportation system is totally safe - obviously as this accident shows - but when you consider that a fatal car accident would only get more than a little blurb in the Metro section of the Post if it involved something like street racing, it is easy to forget just how dangerous driving is since fatal car crashes are generally pretty mundane.
At first, when I saw the photos, I thought that the collision happened in Silver Spring, MD since it looked like Silver Spring where CSX tracks are on each side of the Metro tracks - the Red Line runs on both ends parallel to CSX tracks and often are right next to them (from Union Station to just north of Silver Spring on the east (Wheaton End) and from just north of White Flint to the end of the line at Shady Grove. The Red Line often offers views of rail action especially when approaching Union Station.
The Metro tracks use wooden ties (at least when above ground).
What I find is interestign is that this happened after so much emphasis was placed on worries about terrorism - did placing so much emphasis on the unlikely possibility of a terrorist bombing attack cause Metro to neglect the much realer possibility of system failure?
When I lived in the area and commuted on Metro, I generally rode in the first and last car because it was the least crowded (often when boarding at stations I boarded on (Rosslyn, Ballston, and Pentagon City mainly) it was impossible to board one of the center cars and you had little choice but to get in one of the end cars even though it was less safe.
The system does have funding problems - in Virginia, what resources are there tend to go to the Dulles Airport extension. Because it is funding by three jurisdictions (the District of Columbia, Maryland, and Virginia) and Congress who has much control over the District, Metro necessarily faces a lot of issues when it comes to control and funding - it is supposed to be run by an interstate compact.
Last time I went up to the Washington Area, I stopped by the Van Dorn Street station to see if anything was in the Van Dorn Street Yard (Norfolk Southern) - I thought that Metro was about the only thing I missed about living up there (Richmond's public transit system is appallingly bad for a city of its size - even living one mile outside of the city limits in an area which 100 years ago had electric rail service (streetcars I believe - may have been interurban) and now has several parks and other attractions the closest bus stop is an half mile away) - driving is a horror and also risky (although often it wouldn't get fast enough to cause much damage in the inevitable accidents).
When I go back to Washington to visit, I'm still going to be riding Metro - and probably still riding in one of the end cars.
penncentral2002 At first, when I saw the photos, I thought that the collision happened in Silver Spring, MD since it looked like Silver Spring where CSX tracks are on each side of the Metro tracks - the Red Line runs on both ends parallel to CSX tracks and often are right next to them (from Union Station to just north of Silver Spring on the east (Wheaton End) and from just north of White Flint to the end of the line at Shady Grove. The Red Line often offers views of rail action especially when approaching Union Station.
Now they are reporting that the train that struck the standing train was under automatic control.
According to Trains Newswire, the operator attempted to stop the train by using the emergency brake.
Johnny
Does the "automatic control" make sure the brakes work?
Computers...they are employed because they are foolproof, don't take coffee and lunch breaks, don't take vacations, don't need health insurance, don't need social security and pension benefits, and don't pick up a pay check. But are they properly fed and cared for? . I have been waiting for such a catastrophic meltdown to see what happens next. Initially here, talk was to look at the train...now I see they are looking at the main computer back at the ranch. I feel we are going into something big...bigger than texting and cell phone misuse. Stay tuned.
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henry6 Computers...they are employed because they are foolproof, don't take coffee and lunch breaks, don't take vacations, don't need health insurance, don't need social security and pension benefits, and don't pick up a pay check. But are they properly fed and cared for? . I have been waiting for such a catastrophic meltdown to see what happens next. Initially here, talk was to look at the train...now I see they are looking at the main computer back at the ranch. I feel we are going into something big...bigger than texting and cell phone misuse. Stay tuned.
henry6,
I think you are on to something.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
I suspect that we're going to find out that the computer lost track (no pun intended) of the train that was rear-ended.
Brian (IA) http://blhanel.rrpicturearchives.net.
blhanel I suspect that we're going to find out that the computer lost track (no pun intended) of the train that was rear-ended.
2. Computer control -- Why did computer not have software that will shut down area if a train gets lost?
3. Does the system operate in parallel with another computer and if not why? and if so why not shut down when there is a discrepancy?
4. Was a software patch installed sometime before this crash?
5. Three trains in a block? Did this fool the computer?
6. Computer power glich?
7. Is this putting too much reliance on one system without an independent backup?
8. Failure of an IC?
9. GIGO? (garbage in garbage out)
10. How many more possible computer problems can we come up with?
Brian,
Lot more to be sure.
But we humans have become so complacent and reliant on our technology we often never notice.
We wake up to a micro chip beep, our coffee is brewed and ready for us, our TV is on and tuned to the traffic...and we are so just to it being that way we often don't know what to do when it fails.
We have become so dependent on our technology to keep us safe or to correct our mistakes, in spelling, grammar, art and math to name a few, that we have begun to lose those skills.
One of our most human traits, one that sets us above most of the other animals that inhabit this planet is the ability to choose, to make decisions based on intuition and experience, not blind instinct.
Which is why airlines have pilots and co-pilots, trains have engineers and conductors, and transit lines and trolleys have motormen...because the technology does fail, often because the person who programmed the computer failed to include every single scenario that could occur.
Reports have it that the motorman in the trailing put her train in emergency...one would assume because she saw the other train...or maybe she just had that hunch...we will never know because she died...but my point is, had the trains been under a different type of control, or a shared control, this might not have happened.
But my guess is that Metro, and the motorman running the trailing train, simply assumed that because the computer didn't take action nothing was wrong.
Complacency, being so used to the system always working right, will play a large role in this...but the fact she did plug the train while the computer failed to take action confirms that no matter how well thought out and programmed the computer is, there will always be a need for the human interaction and intervention from the cab.
And no, her putting the train into emergency did not prevent the accident, but I bet it saved a lot more lives than we will know.
23 17 46 11
edblysardAnd no, her putting the train into emergency did not prevent the accident, but I bet it saved a lot more lives than we will know.
.
I agree there are a lot more places the computer system could go wrong from the main to the detector system to the on board equipment. But before we totally fry this technology, look at BART and PATCO systems which have had so few glitches over so many more years...plus several European and Asian systems, too.
But the question which comes to my mind is that if you have to put a person onboard to oversee the computer system...like PATCO and Metro here...why not give them control and let the computer system override them instead?
Yes, the 1000 series were built in Winder, GA but the the design was by LT Klauder Consultants and the engineering took place in Chula Vista, CA. The body was constructed with long aluminum extrusions manufactured in Switzerland. The extrusions were "Pop Riveted" together to attain the required height dimensions. The result was a very strong and light weight car. Unfortunately, Rohr aerospace engineers designed for stress rather than deflection witrh the result that tests of the first car revealed that properly fitted doors would hang up with a crush car load. This was corrected with a steel door frame. The car passed all of the specified strength requirements.
Rohr also built the first two orders of the San Fransico Bart system at Chula Vista, CA, using the same construction technique. The spec in this case was by PBQ&D. To the best of my knowledge this series is still running.
At the time all this was going on, I was Engineering & Program Mgr for the Turboliner trains. It was planned to build these in Winder also but when the WMATA cars were delayed, the Turboliners stayed in Chula Vista, for which i was duly greatful. I visited Winder to assess operations there and also provided assistance to the manufacturer of the disk brakes.
Subsequent orders were built by Breda of Pistoia, Italy which had got its feet wet with a contract for ClevelandTransit System light rail cars. I was back at WABCO by this time, managing Passenger and Transit Sales and had the priviledge of negotiating the brake order with Breda.
I concur that NTSB's statement is a CYA effort. Train control and safety systems are supposed to prevent collisions such as this.
Jerry Pier
For any train control system, there are ALWAYS failure modes.
Some of them are there on purpose. For example, there has to be a way to cut the system out in order to move the train in non-controlled territory, such as into and out of a storage yard or shop. Or, to move the train when the system fails. There are usually rules wrapped around who, when, where and how the cut-out can be used.
There can be "false clear" signal indications as well. Even in the "vital relay" world, there can be malfuncitons. I am aware of one where the grease in the signal relay hardened and prevented the armature from dropping. I am aware of another one where a bullet from a hunter's rifle prevented a searchlight signal from dropping back to stop. Similarly, the relay valves in the braking system can stick, be cut out, have a kinked line running to them, etc.
If the Metro uses coded track circuits and on-board cab signalling - well known hardware with a long history - all it would have taken was for the "clear" decoder to stick through some highly improbable combination of failures.
The "computer control" is likely just a "non vital" CTC overlay to keep the trains running. The signal safety system is likely unrelated.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
I suppose the automated train wasn't texting at the time...
If there was something on the rails (leaves?), that could have caused a failure of the stopped train to trip the block detectors, giving the second train a green signal into a block that wasn't actually empty.
Jerry Pier Yes, the 1000 series were built in Winder, GA but the the design was by LT Klauder Consultants and the engineering took place in Chula Vista, CA. The body was constructed with long aluminum extrusions manufactured in Switzerland. The extrusions were "Pop Riveted" together to attain the required height dimensions. The result was a very strong and light weight car. Unfortunately, Rohr aerospace engineers designed for stress rather than deflection witrh the result that tests of the first car revealed that properly fitted doors would hang up with a crush car load. This was corrected with a steel door frame. The car passed all of the specified strength requirements.
Thanks for setting me straight! I didn't know LTK was that heavy into transit car structural design.
The cars appear to be very similar to the first batch of Atlanta's MARTA cars. I wonder if they are related.
henry6But the question which comes to my mind is that if you have to put a person onboard to oversee the computer system...like PATCO and Metro here...why not give them control and let the computer system override them instead?
Actually, that's a good point. Unfortunately, it's probably to save money:"We'll pay you minimum wage to open doors and prevent the train from crashing, instead of paying you five times as much to actually control the train."
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ns3010 henry6But the question which comes to my mind is that if you have to put a person onboard to oversee the computer system...like PATCO and Metro here...why not give them control and let the computer system override them instead? Actually, that's a good point. Unfortunately, it's probably to save money:"We'll pay you minimum wage to open doors and prevent the train from crashing, instead of paying you five times as much to actually control the train."
I've seen a few comments regarding the accident as something that could have been prevented by including the Human Being in the control of the train. But "Money" is the ruling element here----as above--
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
PATCO does exactly what Henry suggests. The operator runs the train manually during off peak periods with the ATC system as a safety backup. This keeps the operators proficient. Only when the need to squeeze out all the variablility of manual operation in order to keep and maintain rush hours schedules and headways do they run in full automatic mode.
(there are no on board computers involved in PATCO's ATC system! It's just cab signals, relays and magnet valves.)
I'm going to stick my neck in here and state that what you pay a person and how they orient themselves to their work are very poorly related. Recent history of the work and moral ethics of people at all social and financial strata will support me. Was the texting engineer from last fall paid minimum wage? Was Madoff paid minimum wage? My wife works at a slightly above minimum wage job at a popular coffee chain up here in Canada, and I can asure you that she brings her all to her work because that is her nature.
We should stick to sensible premises.
-Crandell
BigJim edblysardAnd no, her putting the train into emergency did not prevent the accident, but I bet it saved a lot more lives than we will know.Maybe she will be the hero of this whole thing. How odd it would be if her name just happened to be Casey Jones.
Given that Mr. Jones was known for disregarding safety rules one would hope not..
"I Often Dream of Trains"-From the Album of the Same Name by Robyn Hitchcock
I have often seen people get big checks for a job they are not really qualified to do and people who are underpaid forthe job they are doing well. What happens after the individual differences, etc., is a lack of interest or ability in doing better; then crowd mentality sets in and the morale of the group sinks and nobody gives a *** and the work environment worsens more. I am in a business where it is now deemed that anyone can be snagged off the street with just a high school diploma (or not) and be have a career doing what us that have gone on before have had to have college degrees and years of experience for the industry to achieve what it has. Now management is reinventing the wheel but they are leaving out the spokes. Do you think morale is good, Do you think our customers are getting what they think they are getting, what they think they are paying for? No, if you want quality and safety and integrety, you have to hire qualified people, careing people, and pay them a decent wage to do it. Look at what sports figures get. Isn't an employee that can earn a company millions of dollars a year because of his experience, education, and ability, worth more than minimum wage? A baseball, football, basketball, hockey, soccer, tennis, and golf "employees" all get more than that and what do they actually contribute to the society except maybe one spectacular "sports moment" How about the guy who makes sure your car is solid and safe and nobody's gonna get killed because it the car is perfect?
First, older aluminum cars do not seem to be a significant issue here. The damage seems consistent with a moderate rate of speed and the masses of both 6-car trains. If anything, the fact that one car overrode another without more substantial damage suggests a reassuring degree of strength and structural integrity. If the cars had been built much stronger and not overridden one another, I suspect many more passengers in all the cars would have been seriously injured or killed from being "thrown" from their feet or seats.
Secondly, I suspected, as many have written, that the malfunction occurred somewhere in the computer and ato/cab signal systems. As far as detection, even a stopped train draws considerable power for lights and air-conditioning to shunt signal circuits. Furthermore, how could a signal command not be shunted by the lead train in the track circuit that nonetheless had been commanded to slow and stop?
selector I'm going to stick my neck in here and state that what you pay a person and how they orient themselves to their work are very poorly related. Recent history of the work and moral ethics of people at all social and financial strata will support me. Was the texting engineer from last fall paid minimum wage? Was Madoff paid minimum wage? My wife works at a slightly above minimum wage job at a popular coffee chain up here in Canada, and I can asure you that she brings her all to her work because that is her nature. We should stick to sensible premises. -Crandell
Crandell:
I don't think the contempt that you read in that "minimum wage" comment was directed at the motorman so much as at the employer who feels that the operator monitoring the computer is worth less than the one who is actually manipulating the controls.
The wage paid for a given job does not have much of an effect on the employee's motivation. It does, however, seriously impact the quality of people who apply for the job when it is vacant. When the pay is low, you get few applicants and often must hire some people that you wouldn't otherwise. You will get some good ones, but they will probably always be looking for something better. When you pay well, you get many applicants and you can be very fussy about which one you hire.
Sometimes low wages are all that can be offered because there is not enough markup in the end product to support higher.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
HarveyK400 Furthermore, how could a signal command not be shunted by the lead train in the track circuit that nonetheless had been commanded to slow and stop?
A failure of the wayside track circuit/signal system and/or on board cab signal system creating a "false proceed" is one way. There were 6 in 2008 due to equipment failures in the US.
Take a look! http://safetydata.fra.dot.gov/OfficeofSafety/publicsite/affp/Fpbrowse.aspx
The operator had very little to do with the accident, though there is some question because it appears she had at least 20 seconds to stop the train after seeing the stopped train about 1/4 mile ahead of her.
The evidence is leaning towards failure of wayside equipment to provide control data to the train, or the train failing to acknowledge the control data signals from the wayside equipment.
The arguments from NTSB about crashworthiness of the Rohr cars is total bupkis. The object of the game is to keep trains apart, PERIOD. The speed of this collision would have killed on any train--Rohr, Breda, CAF, Alstom.
Unfortunately we have no telemetry which is very disturbing, not just because the Rohr cars don't have 'black boxes' but also because Central Control should have telemetry transmitted to it by the wayside equipment.
Please, visit the Wikipedia page about the WMATA Metrorail system. I ride it regularly.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_Metrorail
As an afterthought, I recall reading a long time ago about concerns for cross-talk between tracks with audio-frequency carrier signals. This may be a possible explanation for a false clear signal in the absense of the shunted circuit of the occupied track.
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