Amazing. Thanks for the explanation.
I can finally visualize it. Obviously a much steeper approach from the west (eastbound). Dont most summits have fairly equal grades to the top? Generally speaking of course.
Remember I am from Indiana.
ed
MP173Obviously a much steeper approach from the west (eastbound).
MP 173,
Actually it is the other way around, the ascent of the ground is steeper westward than eastward since the east edge is a single fault. The grades used by the railroad are roughly the same because considerable engineering went in to getting down from the summit to Truckee (eastward). If you have Signor's book look at the map. In summary, the line drops down the face of the fault scarp as a generally side hill cut for at least a few miles.
I 80 in contrast flings itself off the summit almost straight down to Donner Lake on an alignment widely separated from the railroad.
Mac
Time to go to Google Earth again. That should help.
Mac, thanks for all the help.
MP173 [snip] Dont most summits have fairly equal grades to the top? Generally speaking of course. Remember I am from Indiana. ed
A few are, but most apparently are not. See Al Krug's tabulation of "Major Railroad Grades" at:
http://www.alkrug.vcn.com/rrfacts/grades.htm
One reason the Donner Pass grades would be similar on both sides - despite the differences in geology/ and the resulting topography - were the Congressional construction standards of not exceeding the B&O's maximum grade of 2.2 % or 110 ft. per mile, etc. In view of that upper bound, why would the CP's builders not use that to their advantage wherever it would serve their purpose - i.e., reduce construction costs - even where the topography might not necessitate it otherwise ?
- Paul North.
I remembered three examples of asymetrical ruling grades. Great Northern (BNSF) Marias Pass 1% westbound, 1.8% eastbound. CP Kicking Horse Pass is now 1% westbound and 2.2% eastbound. Kiciking Horse was originally steeper both ways with the westbound descent something over 4%. Scarry!! Since these two are relatively near each other I suspect they are as they are because of similar geology.
In the east the PRR over the Alleganeys (sp?) was/is 1% eastbound and about 1.8% westbound. Here J. Edgar Thompson choose to minimize fixed investment with a short steep grade rather than invest in a longer flatter side hill construction that would have bypassed the site of Altoona. Even in 1840 he knew the heavy traffic would be eastbound!
The Feather River Route was one of two possible railroad routes into California surveyed in 1853. (The other was in southern California, e.g. Tehachapi and Cajon passes).
Lt. John Gunnison started the survey along the 38th parallel until killed by Paiutes in Utah. Lt. E.G. Beckwith continued the survey. (The pass which the WP used is named after him.) The route went west following the Humboldt River in Nevada. Beckwith discovered two passes over the Sierra Nevada, one from the Madeline Plains, which he recommended, and one from Honey Lake. The route was then to follow the Feather River, subsequently parallel the Sacramento River, and terminate at Benicia (an important, at the time, community on the north shore of Carquinez Strait, connecting San Pablo/San Francisco bays with the Delta where all "Big Valley" rivers flowed to.)
Perhaps the Donner Party tragedy in 1846 was too fresh in people's minds to seriously consider crossing the high passes (like Donner, Walker, Carson, and Sonora) characteristic of the central Sierra Nevada.
Mark
twhite One other thing about the Sierra Nevada--it is a raised and tilted fault-block, but the elevations become higher and higher the further south you travel the range. So high peaks in the north-central Donner area may rise to about 8-9000 feet, while further south, the peaks can average between 10,000 and 14,000 feet. It's a narrow mountain range in width, but an extremely tough one to traverse, especially since it falls off very sharply to the east once you surmount the summits.
One other thing about the Sierra Nevada--it is a raised and tilted fault-block, but the elevations become higher and higher the further south you travel the range. So high peaks in the north-central Donner area may rise to about 8-9000 feet, while further south, the peaks can average between 10,000 and 14,000 feet. It's a narrow mountain range in width, but an extremely tough one to traverse, especially since it falls off very sharply to the east once you surmount the summits.
The Sierra Nevada's eastern escarpment is most dramatic in the southern part of the mountain range, roughly from just north of Tioga Pass (entrance to Yosemite N.P. at about 12,000-foot elevation) to just south of Mt. Whitney where the mountains drop almost straight down into the Mono Lake basin and Owens Valley, except in the area around Mammoth Lakes.
Paul_D_North_Jr [snip] Another significant portion of a major line that is on top of a 'ridge' is the original east slope to UP's Sherman Pass. I forget the exact words that Gen. Grenville Dodge used to describe the 'plane' or 'incline' that he discovered that day long ago while he was being chased by hostile Indians, but it is clear that's what he meant. The prevailing terrain there is far more gentle than at Donner Pass, and so the 'ridge' is not quite so obvious or dramatic as Mac describes above, but that's what was done.
' . . . with one of my scouts as a guide, [I] went up [Lodge Pole] creek to the summit of Cheyenne Pass, striking south along the crest of the mountains . . . About noon, in the valley of a tributary of Crow Creek, we discovered Indians, who, at the same time, discovered us. They were between us and our [wagon] trains. I saw our danger and took means immediately to reach the ridge and try to head them off, and follow it [the ridge] to where the cavalry could see our signals. We dismounted and started down the ridge, holding the Indians at bay when they came too near, with our Winchesters. It was nearly night when the troops saw our smoke signals of danger and came to our relief; and in going to the [wagon] train we followed this ridge out until I discovered it [the ridge] led down to the plains without a break. I then said to my guide that if we saved our scalps I believed we had found the crossing of the Black Hills -- and over this ridge, between Lone Tree and Crow Creeks, the wonderful line over the mountains was built.' [emphasis added - PDN]
From a copy of Maj.Gen. Grenville M. Dodge's book, How We Built the Union Pacific Railway, and Other Railway Paper and Addresses, Monarch Printing Co., 1870, pp. 20 - 21 [refer to the digitized scan of it as a 'PDF' file on Google Books at -
http://books.google.com/books?id=ij8uAAAAYAAJ&dq=dodge+%22how+we+built+the+union+pacific%22&source=gbs_navlinks_s
In other summaries, the ridge is referred to as a 'gangplank'; also, the above story is called 'rather romanticized'. See History of Wyoming, by T. A. Larson, The Coming of the Union Pacific, pg. 39, top, at -
http://books.google.com/books?id=9zVKYtdsUDEC&pg=RA1-PA39&lpg=RA1-PA39&dq=dodge+indians+%22sherman+pass%22&source=bl&ots=fX43Mr5YIP&sig=bw0rOci6gjSz516-P5RfvcE5yPI&hl=en&ei=qnVDSv62IIOItgeu1ZSoAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7
and John Hoyt Wiliiams, in A Great and Shining Road, pg. 106, bottom, at -
http://books.google.com/books?id=W_O_PJmz29IC&pg=PA106&lpg=PA106&dq=dodge+indians+%22sherman+pass%22&source=bl&ots=p5pZa9NoN4&sig=Yp-Mfde83rMyv0QAIUsTswAUpvU&hl=en&ei=qnVDSv62IIOItgeu1ZSoAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1
markpierceLt. John Gunnison started the survey along the 38th parallel until killed by Paiutes in Utah. Lt. E.G. Beckwith continued the survey. (The pass which the WP used is named after him.)
Beckwourth Pass (not Beckwith) in California was named for Aficran-American Mountain Man: James Beckwourth.
Beckwith Pass is in Colorado
I tried to sell my two cents worth, but no one would give me a plug nickel for it.
I don't have a leg to stand on.
DSchmitt markpierceLt. John Gunnison started the survey along the 38th parallel until killed by Paiutes in Utah. Lt. E.G. Beckwith continued the survey. (The pass which the WP used is named after him.) Beckwourth Pass (not Beckwith) in California was named for Aficran-American Mountain Man: James Beckwourth. Beckwith Pass is in Colorado
Please explain this to the University of California. Tell them that they published Derek Hayes's Historical Atlas of California (2007) with such an "obvious" error. (A well-versed student, however, would be aware of such variations in spelling.)
James Pierson Beckwourth (April 6, 1798 or 1800, Frederick County, Virginia–October 29, 1866, Denver) (a.k.a. Jim Beckworth, James P. Beckwith, Jim Beckwith) was born in Virginia in 1798 to Sir Jennings Beckwith, a descendant of Irish and English nobility, and an African-American mulatto woman about whom little is known.
Beckwourth, Beckworth, Beckwith, it is all the same. Regardless, he was a great American. Give the guy his credit, however we spell his name!
Regardless, his father's name was Beckwith.
All? recent maps call the WP's California pass Beckwourth; did some used to call it Beckwith? If so, how old?
timz:
Actually, it's been called both from as far back as I can remember. It pretty much depends on which historian of the area that you read and what era the particular history was written, and quite frankly, who the locals in the Sierra were at the time they might have been interviewed for information.
For instance, there is a canyon on the east side of Donner Ridge near the I-80 crest of Donner Summit that is cut into a rather dark shade of blackish basalt. I won't say what the original name of the canyon was, but it was the "N" word, which was later changed to "Negro Canyon" and is now known on maps as "Black Canyon."
I have an old Tahoe/Plumas National Forest map that even refers to "Beckwourth/Beckwith" as "Beckworth" Pass. Actually, as far as the geology of the Sierra goes, it's hardly even a 'pass' at all, it's simply a little bump of a sage-covered ridge at the northeast end of the Sierra Valley, which itself is a geologic anomaly in that area--a vast prehistoric lake (now dry) that contains the headwaters of the Middle Fork of the Feather River. Geologically, one would think that the valley would drain East, not West, but the ancient lake-bed tilts to the west. It's probably the lowest 'pass' in the entire mountain range, but the WP simply tunneled through it. And it's a very gentle rise and fall for parallel State Route 70.
I remember the first time I went 'over' the pass, I was hardly aware of it. It's really negligable as far as Sierra mountain passes are concerned.
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
I couldn't find a railroad at the pass.
Oops, wrong pass.
markpierce I couldn't find a railroad at the pass. Oops, wrong pass. Mark
Well dang, Mark, I could have sworn that it circled the far side of those lakes behind you, LOL!
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