nordique72 Deggesty PC may have let the NYC line to St. Louis, through Pana, deteriorate, preferring the PRR line, through Effingham and Vandalia. One of the more interesting last gasps of the Pana-Paris line was as host to some Amtrak detours in 1979- CR had a pileup on the old PRR main which necessitated Amtrak and freights to run via Mattoon. I saw videos and photos of the runs and it was stunning to say the least watching those heavy freights and Amtrak bobbling along through the weeds west of Mattoon.
Deggesty PC may have let the NYC line to St. Louis, through Pana, deteriorate, preferring the PRR line, through Effingham and Vandalia.
One of the more interesting last gasps of the Pana-Paris line was as host to some Amtrak detours in 1979- CR had a pileup on the old PRR main which necessitated Amtrak and freights to run via Mattoon. I saw videos and photos of the runs and it was stunning to say the least watching those heavy freights and Amtrak bobbling along through the weeds west of Mattoon.
Do you have any idea where I could see that? I don't suppose it is on YouTube or something? That would be a very interesting sight.
Gabe
gabeI assume this means UP no longer has manifest freights on its Saint Louis - Chicago GM&O line? I imagine the presence of Amtrak did not detract from UP's decision to use the C&EI instead of the GM&O.
Pretty much- there is no St. Louis-Chicago manifest anymore on the ex-GMO (unless it's a reroute). UP runs a train from East St Louis to Bloomington, and they also run quite a few freights from Springfield (Ridgely) to East St. Louis that come off the old CNW at Barr and run down the I&M to Ridgely (something like up to 4-6 a day). Just after the merger for a time the UP was running a freight on the old GMO- but it was rerouted (for a time) over to the old CNW-IM-GMO route, and now it runs via the Pana Sub. The big hangup on the old GMO is the trackage rights on the CN north of Joliet- aside from Amtrak the only regular UP train north of Bloomington is a local and the occasional loaded/empty coal train.
The Penn Central got the ball rolling on making the NYC the secondary route to the PRR in Illinois- but it goes further than that. Both lines were rationalized by the PC after the merger between Indianapolis and St. Louis. From Indianapolis to Terre Haute the New York Central alignment was used as the preferred route, then beyond Terre Haute the PRR became preferred. The NYC from Paris, IL via Mattoon to Pana was torn out in the early 80s, and the line from Pana to East St. Louis was sold to the MP in 1978/79. The line was in horrible shape when the MoP got it (re: much was 10 MPH) since the PC was owner and maintainer and the MP was merely the tenant who had to put up with it. By the time they bought it, the MoPac was really the only thing running on it between Pana and ESL. The line rebuild was completed at about the same time as the UP takeover in 1982- which coincided with the Pana-Paris CR abandonment.
As a side note- the old NYC-IC-CEI-B&O tower at Pana is still there it's original location. It sits next to where the B&O and IC crossed the NYC, while the CEI line that still exists swings around a connector on the far northwest side of the old interlocking.
nordique72 gabe Actually, I think the line has one of the best places in the world to watch trains. The line intersects the BNSF line just South of Washville/North or Sorento, IL. Gabe- The spot you're thinking of is called Walsh on the UP and Toland on the BNSF- it was built in the early 80s after the BN abandoned their own ex-CBQ line into St. Louis via Alton. As for the Pana Sub. it is (and has been considered) the UP's main Chicago-St. Louis artery now for over 25 years. The line has always had somewhere between 10-12 trains a day before the CNW and SP mergers and now sees more than that after traffic was diverted off the old CNW and SP Chicago-St. Louis lines. I remember when I was a kid late in the evenings the UP's mini-fleet of southbound intermodal trains would make their appearance on the Pana Sub. First would be the CHFWZ, followed by the CHHOZ, then lastly the CHMXZ- in the dead of a summer night many times my father and I would pace the CHFWZ between Worden and Carpenter on ILL 46 with the windows down- what a show! The NYC was rebuilt at the turn of the century between Pana and East St. Louis as a double track speedway- so it was an easy decision for the UP which line would continue as their preferred Chicago-STL route.
gabe Actually, I think the line has one of the best places in the world to watch trains. The line intersects the BNSF line just South of Washville/North or Sorento, IL.
Gabe-
The spot you're thinking of is called Walsh on the UP and Toland on the BNSF- it was built in the early 80s after the BN abandoned their own ex-CBQ line into St. Louis via Alton.
As for the Pana Sub. it is (and has been considered) the UP's main Chicago-St. Louis artery now for over 25 years. The line has always had somewhere between 10-12 trains a day before the CNW and SP mergers and now sees more than that after traffic was diverted off the old CNW and SP Chicago-St. Louis lines. I remember when I was a kid late in the evenings the UP's mini-fleet of southbound intermodal trains would make their appearance on the Pana Sub. First would be the CHFWZ, followed by the CHHOZ, then lastly the CHMXZ- in the dead of a summer night many times my father and I would pace the CHFWZ between Worden and Carpenter on ILL 46 with the windows down- what a show! The NYC was rebuilt at the turn of the century between Pana and East St. Louis as a double track speedway- so it was an easy decision for the UP which line would continue as their preferred Chicago-STL route.
I am very familiar with that stretch of road. I comuted to my undergrad school of Edwardsville from Mt. Olive every day. Even though Route 4 was a faster route, I would always take the Worden-Carpenter road, just under the hope of catching a train. Ah, Worden, speaking of great places to watch trains--imagine it with the IT and CNW still there . . . .
I assume this means UP no longer has manifest freights on its Saint Louis - Chicago GM&O line? I imagine the presence of Amtrak did not detract from UP's decision to use the C&EI instead of the GM&O.
I never realized MoPac served Cairo, but according to a 1953 Official Guide, the map does in fact show service. Further, there is a listing in Cairo at "Mo.Pac. Sta Tel 789 - EG Gowell, General Agent". It would be interesting to know the history of that branch (from Thebes) and the type of traffic handled.
Penn Central did in fact emphasize the use of the Vandalia/Effingham route. I am not sure of the abandonment of the line, but memory seems to recall the early 80's. My aunt lived by the NYC line in Mattoon and I recall seeing and photographing PC freights in the mid 70's. Most freights were westbound, perhaps there was directional movements (WB - NYC, EB - PRR) for awhile. The NYC line was a racetrack, Official Guides show high speed movements of passenger trains on the line in the 50's and 60's. The Southwestern Limited was carded for 4:30 between St. Louis and Indianapolis for 56mph on the 252 mile route, including stops at Mattoon, Paris (flag), Terre Haute, and Greencastle (flag). Not bad when considering the terminal time out of Union Station. PRR carded the "Spirit of St. Louis at 4:10 for 240 miles or 58mph with with 4 stops. Both were racetracks in 1953.
Obviously, I digress from the discussion of the C&EI. The Meadowlark (pretty nice name for a passenger train) ran from Chicago to Joppa, covering the 363.4 miles in 8:10 for 44 mph with 22 intermediate stops, departing Chicago at 530pm arriving in Joppa at 140am. Departure from Joppa was at 320am with arrival in Chicago at 1140am. That would have been quite a round trip.
Coal provided considerable tonnage and revenue until the late 60's. In 1964 C&EI handled 100,000 cars of coal (29% of total carloadings, 21% of revenue). By 1971 coal loadings had dropped dramatically to 39,000 (18% of carloadings, 14% of revenue). A significant chunk of that coal obviously originated on the Evansville line. (Source: Moody's Transportation Manual, 1972).
One could probably trace the downward spiral of the Illinois Central in the 1970's to the MoPac merger of the C&EI, as interline freight dried up at St. Louis and Evansville (in the late 60's via L&N). C&EI cut a lean swath thru the state of Illinois while IC(G) had branchlines everywhere.
Still I wonder, why didnt Southern and Frisco get involved? Southern seemed to settle for interchange with Monon at Louisville or PC at Cincinnati. Dont know about Frisco.
ed
When looking at 1955 maps, as I did last night, you can really get obsolete information. The SPV Atlas of the Great Lakes West (1996) shows that the MoP had abandoned the line from Thebes to Cairo, and the C&EI had been abandoned by the MoP from Vienna Jct. to Fayville (connection with the MoP), just below Thebes. So, apparently the MoP from CP D064 (just below Chester) to Mt. Vernon and thence to Chicago on the C&EI is the shortest UP route from the SW to Chicago (I calculate about 18 miles shorter than via Pana).
PC may have let the NYC line to St. Louis, through Pana, deteriorate, preferring the PRR line, through Effingham and Vandalia.
Johnny
I will have to read this book. My great-grandpa Rickets was a shop worker, in Danville Ill. I think.
The road to to success is always under construction. _____________________________________________________________________________ When the going gets tough, the tough use duct tape.
I am strickly looking at C&EI as real estate, not falling in love with the company. However, the book makes a pretty good case for a little admiration.
Perhaps too, my admiration also stems from countless trips thru Momence, Il over the years. C&EI had quite a profile in town, the major north-south carrier intersected by NYC and Milwaukee Road. Is there another location which sported the same three carriers at one location? If so...please inform me. I missed the C&EI, NYC and CMStP&P but was able to catch Conrail and UP/CSX over the years, along with an occasional CP/Soo train. The tower at Momence stayed up until the mid to late 90's and just prior to it's razing, I took a few minutes to snoop around inside and pull out a few paper station records. With the crossing of the Kankakee River, the C&EI had quite a bit to offer the railfan. The book offers 17 photos of Momence and the immediate area, all photos good and a couple are exceptional.
Pulling out my Trains Nov 2001 issue the Map of the Month (p 86-87) features Union Pacific Railroad, Trains per Day. The segment from St. Louis to Findlay Jct shows 14....which is more than I would have guessed. What are all of those trains? Must be PRB coal, plus a little merchandise.
The map also answers my question as to the routing south of Salem. The Gorham route is used for the majority of the traffic to Missouri.
Another interesting fact from the map is the number of trains south from EStL along the river. It is shown as 31/day. The River Wars two part article back in the 80's was Trains Magazine at it's best...it might be time to re-read it.
As far as the former IC line thru Dundas...it was a little branchline that didnt originate much traffic. It did provide great entertainment for young boys growing up in a small Southern Illinois town.
Gabe, next time you are up this way, remind me about the C&EI book...you might change your mind about it.
Murphy Siding gabe I am surprised you can speak so affectionately about a merger that proved to be the harbinger of bereavement for that wonderfully bucolic line through Dundas. Gabe Off-topic, I know, but that sentence is downright poetic. If Simon & Garfunkle stage a comeback, you may have some new material started for them.
gabe I am surprised you can speak so affectionately about a merger that proved to be the harbinger of bereavement for that wonderfully bucolic line through Dundas. Gabe
I am surprised you can speak so affectionately about a merger that proved to be the harbinger of bereavement for that wonderfully bucolic line through Dundas.
Quick list of my song titles for them:
(1) Here's to you Hunter Harrison (formerly "Mrs. Robinson");
(2) I am the Rock, the Rock Island (formerly "I am a Rock");
(3) Homewood Bound (formerly "Homeward Bound");
(4) Katy's Song (formerly "Kathy's Song"); and,
(5) The Boxcar (formerly "The Boxer").
Not sure they would get together for such a song list though . . .
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
The part of C&EI between Dolton and Woodland Jct. became a joint line (MP-L&N) when L&N picked up the line to Evansville. However, it operated under an MP-style employee timetable, which may have led to the assumption that L&N only had trackage rights.
MP173 Greyhound: Looking at an old Official Guide, I see the C&EI split at Cypress and ran across thru Tamms, crossing the GM&O and continuing on to the crossing at Thebes. One of the assumptions I always had was the MoPac ran all the way south on C&EI before joining up. However, looking at an Illinois DOT map from the early 90's, the line thru Tamms was gone. Obviously the Chicago - Little Rock freight was moving in a different pattern. There were two lines, actually three coming off of the C&EI which ran west to the MoPac river line. The M&I out of Salem, which is now gone, a line from Mt. Vernon to Chester and a line from Benton to Gorham. The latter two are still shown. Both are current on the DOT map. Does anyone know which is used for the Chicago freight routings? What role does the Pana route have in the current UP operations? UP has several routings for KC - Chicago freight, none very good....including the St. Louis - Chicago C&EI route. I cannot imagine there is much St. Louis - Chicago freight moving. The ex GM&O line sees one train each way if memory serves me. ed
Greyhound: Looking at an old Official Guide, I see the C&EI split at Cypress and ran across thru Tamms, crossing the GM&O and continuing on to the crossing at Thebes.
One of the assumptions I always had was the MoPac ran all the way south on C&EI before joining up. However, looking at an Illinois DOT map from the early 90's, the line thru Tamms was gone. Obviously the Chicago - Little Rock freight was moving in a different pattern. There were two lines, actually three coming off of the C&EI which ran west to the MoPac river line. The M&I out of Salem, which is now gone, a line from Mt. Vernon to Chester and a line from Benton to Gorham. The latter two are still shown. Both are current on the DOT map.
Does anyone know which is used for the Chicago freight routings?
What role does the Pana route have in the current UP operations? UP has several routings for KC - Chicago freight, none very good....including the St. Louis - Chicago C&EI route. I cannot imagine there is much St. Louis - Chicago freight moving. The ex GM&O line sees one train each way if memory serves me.
Ed,
I never really liked the C&EI. Perhaps her earlier history is different or I am mistaken, but my impression is that it never really had its own personality as it was in the merger game very early. It kind of reminded me of a person who is engaged that tends to take on the personality and hobbies of the person that they are marrying.
Anyway, as for UP west of Pana, it is almost impossible for me to believe that that line is the inferior line (although I know you are correct). I grew up just outside of wistle-hearing distance of that line, and it always impressed me as being at least as busy as the Wabash. I never had to wait too long to find a train on that line. Also, the line sees a lot of PRB coal traffic.
Actually, I think the line has one of the best places in the world to watch trains. The line intersects the BNSF line just South of Washville/North or Sorento, IL. There is a great interchange here. The BNSF line is elevated and trains come off the BNSF or onto the BNSF line over a very steep decending curve that is very sharp due to the location of a creek. Several BNSF trains take this line into Saint Louis every day (including an iron ore train), and it is a pretty neat sight to watch BNSF trains conquer the curve and grade to get on the elevated line. Throw in the fact that both lines see a good amount of traffic, and it is out in the middle of nowhere with no one bothering you, it doesn't get much better than that.
Who would have thunk that one of the better places to watch BNSF and UP interchange would be in the middle of Illinois . . .
When travelling on I-57 into or out of Chicago the first bridge on I-57 before the merger with I-94 east of Halsted Street still has CE&I on it. It is done is welded on steel plate letters typical of the Interstate system and painted green.
Back in the day Cotton Belt had trackage rights over the Missouri Pacific from Valley Junction, Illinois to North Junction, Illinois. A distance of some 119.33 miles. At North Junction Missouri Pacific, Cotton Belt and for a time C&EI used the jointly owned property of the Southern Illinois & Missouri Bridge Company (SIMBCO) to reach across the Mississippi River from Thebes, Illinois to Illmo, Missouri. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thebes_Bridge for more detail on the Thebes Bridge.
Missouri Pacific had trackage rights on the Cotton Belt from Illmo, MO to Paragould, AR.
Another Ed
Deggesty Ed, that's an excellent description. But, remember that the MoP was already east of the Mississippi--the freight line from East St. Louis went down the east bank to Thebes, where the C&EI (the Egyptian Zipper ran down this way from Chicago) came in, and both roads crossed the river there (I believe that the C&EI had trackage rights). What the MoP gained was, as you noted, its own, more direct, line into Chicago. I am not positive, but I have the impression that the track north of Woodland Jct. is wholly owned by the UP, and CSX has trackage rights. The SLSW had trackage rights over the MoP from East St. Louis into Missouri, and then was on its own south and west. Now, it's one big happy? family. Johnny
Ed, that's an excellent description. But, remember that the MoP was already east of the Mississippi--the freight line from East St. Louis went down the east bank to Thebes, where the C&EI (the Egyptian Zipper ran down this way from Chicago) came in, and both roads crossed the river there (I believe that the C&EI had trackage rights). What the MoP gained was, as you noted, its own, more direct, line into Chicago. I am not positive, but I have the impression that the track north of Woodland Jct. is wholly owned by the UP, and CSX has trackage rights. The SLSW had trackage rights over the MoP from East St. Louis into Missouri, and then was on its own south and west. Now, it's one big happy? family.
One of my favorite people came off the C&EI. The late Al Watkins refugeed to the IC when the MoP took control of the C&EI. Al had been involved in intermodal since he worked the North Shore intermodal trains between Chicago and Milwaukee in WWII.
He put on a gruff exterior. He initially estimated it would take "about two weeks" before he'd kill me when I managed to get tranferred into intermodal marketing. But he knew his stuff and if you showed you were serious he'd teach you. He was the best railroad marketing/traffic person I've met to date.
The C&EI freight between Chicago and Texas/Arkansas never got near St. Louis. It went over a line south from Findlay, IL to Tamms, IL where an interchange with the MoP was made. In fact, C&EI track never got very close to St. Louis. They ran into St. Louis via New York Central trackage rights west of Pana, IL.
The books were in mint condition, priced at $40 each at the beginning. I went back at closing time and picked them up at $10 each plus she gave me all the magazines I wanted. It was good to wait.
The C&EI ran from Chicago south to Woodland Jct. There a line branched off southwesterly and the other line continued on to Evansville, In (on the Ohio River). The southwestern line branched at Findlay, Il with one line continuing to St. Louis and most importantly the other line continued south and crossed the Mississippi River into Missouri.
The MoPac purchased the entire line with the provision they would sell the Evansville line (from Woodland Jct south) to L&N. Trackage rights were awarded to L&N into Chicago. Actually it might be joint owned.
Anyway, both MoPac and L&N jumped the river and arrived at Chicago.
Today the line is a heavy duty mainline from Chicago to Woodland Jct with about 50 trains daily in good economic times, with equal numbers for CSX and UP.
CSX routes its Chicago - Southeastern US intermodal and merchandise freight on this line. UP routes its Chicago - Texas, Louisianna and other southwestern freight on the lines. Most UP freights run via Salem, Il avoiding the St. Louis congestion. In Missouri the UP trains run via the old Cotton Belt and the former MoPac mainlines. They have a great route for petrochemical freight running to Chicago and beyond.
Currently UP interchanges with CN at Kinmundy, Il, just north of Salem, running a daily merchandise train from Little Rock to Toronto, via the CN (ex IC) to Mattson, Il where it runs via the old EJE to Griffith, In and back on the CN. Of course the EJE is now CN also. The daily trains, CN 398/399 were pretty big before the recession, usually 100-125 cars daily, with solid blocks of tank cars and covered hoppers of plastic pellets. If you remember the Map of the Month a couple of years ago which followed a car from Houston to Ontario...this was the train which ran from Little Rock to Toronto.
Long winded answer, but the line is pretty critical these days.
MP173 ...... I picked up 20 such books at an estate sale, many dealing with railroads such as EL, PRR, NYC, Wabash, GTW, GMO and other carriers which interested me........ ed
...... I picked up 20 such books at an estate sale, many dealing with railroads such as EL, PRR, NYC, Wabash, GTW, GMO and other carriers which interested me........
I just completed "reading" an excellent book on the C&EI by Edward M. DeRouin entitled Chicago and Eastern Illinois Railroad in Color.
The book is 128 pages of all color photos with descriptive captions. Similar to other "in color" books, one gathers a visual history rather than an expanded written history. I picked up 20 such books at an estate sale, many dealing with railroads such as EL, PRR, NYC, Wabash, GTW, GMO and other carriers which interested me.
Reading the book solidified my belief that C&EI was an important piece to the merger movement which began in the 60's. After reading Vance's book on North American Railroads and the excellent discussion here on "articulation points"...it seems the C&EI was a railroad which allowed both the Missouri Pacific and the L&N to skip a major river and reach perhaps the most important market of all...Chicago.
C&EI seemed like a jack of all trades...hauling coal, passenger trains for Florida, merchandise freight for St. Louis and beyond, plus merchandise and piggyback with the L&N. The coal seemed to play out by the 1960's, but the lines to Evansville and Southern Illinois provided a great avenue to and from Chicago.
Illinois Central fought to keep MoPac out of Chicago. No doubt the splitting of the C&EI took considerable business away from the IC...from both St. Louis and Evansville. Both MoPac and L&N were given access without having to assume branchlines.
Now for the question, why didnt either Frisco, Southern Pacific (Cotton Belt) or Southern Railway grab hold of this railroad?
Was there a better strategic merger in the consolidation days (60's-70's)? One could certainly make the case for NW/WAB/NKP, but what else is out there that got things moving?
btw...I am re-reading Main Lines by Richard Saunders for the 3rd time. Saunders plus Vance gives a pretty good foundation for the non railroader to understand the current systems.
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