EDITing one of my previous posts (for the 3rd time !), because the usual method doesn't seem to be working for me this afternoon:
No major physical changes occurred to the Rathole in the 1940s - only dieselization. After completion, and until the early 1960s improvements, the major physical changes were the re-gauging - from 5 ft. to standard - of the entire 338-mile line and all of its equipment in 1 day on Sunday, May 30, 1886, and the replacement of the "High Bridge" over the Kentucky River in 1911. Also, all of the presently remaining tunnels have at least 30 feet of vertical clearance, for a possible future electrification catenary installation.
Source: April 1976 Trains as above, at pg. 24, col. 1; pg. 25, col. 3; and, pg. 30, col. 3.
- PDN.
blue streak 1 Without a doubt Cincinnati's CNO&TP building has been the most prominent of the City built RRs. It was built in competition with Louisville's L&N going from Louisville to New Orleans. The CNO&TP went through a very mountainous areas and got its nickname the "RAT HOLE" for all its small narrow tunnels. When it got to Chatanooga it was able to join up with the AGS (Alabama Great Southern) and NO&NE (New Orleans and Northeast) to form the Queen (Cincinnati - queen city) and Cresent route.These RRs all became part of the Souther RR but remained separate corporations because of Alabama and Mississippi laws requiring state corporations be based in their state much like the Cotton Belt (SSW) in Texas. When those laws finally repealed all integrated into NS. Sometime I don't remember when SR went to the city of Cincinnati and got them to partially pay to daylight or expand the tunnels so they could carry double stacks. this resulted in an increase in their payments to the city. Anybody in Cinci know what they get each year from NS?
Sometime I don't remember when SR went to the city of Cincinnati and got them to partially pay to daylight or expand the tunnels so they could carry double stacks. this resulted in an increase in their payments to the city. Anybody in Cinci know what they get each year from NS?
[emphasis added - PDN.]
"NOTE: In accordance with the supplemental agreement dated January 1, 1987 between the Cincinnati Southern Railway and The C.N.O. & T.P. Railway Company (Lessee), funds received were $16,211,233. This amount is used to service City of Cincinnati bonds and notes."
Source: Financial Summaries, 2003-2004 Biennial Budget, City of Cincinnati, Ohio, about 2/3 of the way down page 238 (Page 82 of 90 of the PDF version), captioned as "GENERAL OBLIGATION BONDED DEBT OF THE CITY OF CINCINNATI - December 31, 2002", at:
http://www.cincinnati-oh.gov/cmgr/downloads/cmgr_pdf5252.pdf
For the 338 mile (if I recall correctly [EDIT: Yes, per April 1976 Trains, pg. 23, col. 1] ) length of the CNO&TP, that amounts to $47,962 per route-mile, or $9.09 per route-foot, per annum. Not too shabby !
I'll leave it to someone else to dig out more current figures, if desired.
- Paul North.
EDIT: In 1974, the CS lease payment to the City was $4,122,000, per April 1976 Trains, pg. 24, col. 2)
Railway Man Paul_D_North_Jr That was the case for many years - I still have a copy of Freeman Hubbard's Railroad magazine from the early 1970's with a lengthy article on same. However, I recall that line was abandoned sometime in the late 1980s or 1990s due to closure of the sawmills it served. I could be wrong about that, though. The City of Prineville Railroad is very much in service. A major traffic source is tires, for the Les Schwab distribution center there. Historically railway profits paid most of the city's general fund but that hasn't been the case for a long time because the lumber business is not anything like it used to be, because like all of the Northwest, the big trees in the Ochoco Forest have been turned into little trees. Something like 6% of the old-growth forest of 1900 remains in the Pacific Northwest. RWM
Paul_D_North_Jr That was the case for many years - I still have a copy of Freeman Hubbard's Railroad magazine from the early 1970's with a lengthy article on same. However, I recall that line was abandoned sometime in the late 1980s or 1990s due to closure of the sawmills it served. I could be wrong about that, though.
However, I recall that line was abandoned sometime in the late 1980s or 1990s due to closure of the sawmills it served. I could be wrong about that, though.
The City of Prineville Railroad is very much in service. A major traffic source is tires, for the Les Schwab distribution center there. Historically railway profits paid most of the city's general fund but that hasn't been the case for a long time because the lumber business is not anything like it used to be, because like all of the Northwest, the big trees in the Ochoco Forest have been turned into little trees. Something like 6% of the old-growth forest of 1900 remains in the Pacific Northwest.
RWM
http://www.cityofprinevillerailway.com/
They even have access to and operate a 3-truck Shay - the Mount Emily No. 1 - on special occasions ! Also, a link on the City's website is to the "Crooked River Dinner Train" (? if that is still running, per some comments I saw in the budget documents linked below).
Per the proposed budget at:
http://www.cityofprineville.com/assets/doc/fdlibrary/2009-2010_Proposed_budget.pdf
- it appears that the railroad no longer supports the entire city budget (proposed at around $28 million annually, including many special funds). In recent years it appears that the railroad's revenues have or are expected to vary considerably, from $385,000 to $2.73 million. See the "Railroad Enterprise Fund" on pages 90 - 93 of the above proposed budget (Pages 85 through 88 inclusive of 143 of the PDF version).
From the First Quarter Ended Sept. 30, 2008 Financial Report (Page 4 of 22) at [emphasis added]:
http://www.cityofprineville.com/assets/doc/fdlibrary/Quarterly_financial_report_Sept_2008.pdf
"General Fund
The general fund accounts for the City’s community development, police and nondepartmental operations and activities. The primary sources of revenue include property taxes, transient lodging taxes, franchise fees, and intergovernmental revenue."
"The Supplementary Agreement, entered into as of January 1, 1987, between the Trustees of the Cincinnati Southern Railway and The Cincinnati, New Orleans and Texas Pacific Railway Company (the latter a wholly owned subsidiary of Norfolk Southern Railway Company) – extending and amending a Lease, dated as of October 11, 1881 - is incorporated by reference to Exhibit 10(k) to Norfolk Southern Corporation’s Form 10-K filed on March 5, 2001."
CNO&TP still exists as a subsidiary of NS. It is the lessee and operator of the Cincinnati Southern Ry, which is directly owned by the City of Cincinnati. The City of Cincinnati issued bonds to pay for the rebuilding of the Rat Hole in the 1960's, lease payments from CNO&TP were adjusted to pay off the bonds.
blue streak 1 Without a doubt Cincinnati's CNO&TP building has been the most prominent of the City built RRs. It was built in competition with Louisville's L&N going from Louisville to New Orleans. The CNO&TP went through a very mountainous areas and got its nickname the "RAT HOLE" for all its small narrow tunnels. When it got to Chatanooga it was able to join up with the AGS (Alabama Great Southern) and NO&NE (New Orleans and Northeast) to form the Queen (Cincinnati - queen city) and Cresent route.These RRs all became part of the Souther RR but remained separate corporations because of Alabama and Mississippi laws requiring state corporations be based in their state much like the Cotton Belt (SSW) in Texas. When those laws finally repealed all integrated into NS. Sometime I don't remember when SR went to the city of Cincinnati and got them to partially pay to daylight or expand the tunnels so they could carry double stacks. this resulted in an increase in their payments to the city. Anybody in Cinci know what they get each year from NS? [emphasis added - PDN.]
Sometime I don't remember when SR went to the city of Cincinnati and got them to partially pay to daylight or expand the tunnels so they could carry double stacks. this resulted in an increase in their payments to the city. Anybody in Cinci know what they get each year from NS? [emphasis added - PDN.]
That's happened at least twice, I believe. Once in the 1940's I think, and again most notably in the 1963-1964 era for sure. See:
Into the clear Trains, January 1964 page 17 photo essay on the rebuilding of the Rathole the CNO&TP ( DIVISION, "MORGAN, DAVID P.", PHOTO, SR, CONSTRUCTION, TRN )
As to the lease payments: Last night I looked in the NS 2008 Annual Report (financial - coincidentally, the annual meeting of shareholders is happening just about right now !), but nothing was listed as to the amount of this that I could find. I did find an excellent reference to the amended lease agreement - it was part of a NS 10-K filing in March or May 2001, as I recall. I'll be trying to look it up later on.
That's from the Lessee's side. ANother way is to look at the other side - the Lessor City of Cincinnati - there might be something on its website about municipal finances that lists the amount. I may look for that later on as well.
Murphy Siding ButchKnouse Another good example is the former town of Medary, South Dakota. It was on a wagon road and they assumed the RR would be built in their direction. The C&NW instead built 7 miles north through Brookings, which was barely a town. Within a few years the whole town of Medary, buildings and all, moved to Brookings. All that remains of Medary is a historical marker, and the fact that one of the main north-south streets in Brookings is named Medary. I've also seen the same thing, about a town named Minnelousa (?), out near Belle Fourche. Historical maps show the town, and the 7 (!) rail lines that served it. Trouble was, some of the railroads noted didn't even exist, and the others weren't within hundreds of miles. The closest line was 5 to 10 miles away. The town went bust. Go figure. Years later, CNW has a spur line towards the town, to a spot called Jolly Dump.
ButchKnouse Another good example is the former town of Medary, South Dakota. It was on a wagon road and they assumed the RR would be built in their direction. The C&NW instead built 7 miles north through Brookings, which was barely a town. Within a few years the whole town of Medary, buildings and all, moved to Brookings. All that remains of Medary is a historical marker, and the fact that one of the main north-south streets in Brookings is named Medary.
Another good example is the former town of Medary, South Dakota. It was on a wagon road and they assumed the RR would be built in their direction. The C&NW instead built 7 miles north through Brookings, which was barely a town. Within a few years the whole town of Medary, buildings and all, moved to Brookings. All that remains of Medary is a historical marker, and the fact that one of the main north-south streets in Brookings is named Medary.
The DeLorme atlas shows Jolly Dump straight south of Belle Fourche just off of US 85 near the Redwater River. It also shows a Jolly southeast of town on SD 34.
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Paul_D_North_JrThat was the case for many years - I still have a copy of Freeman Hubbard's Railroad magazine from the early 1970's with a lengthy article on same. However, I recall that line was abandoned sometime in the late 1980s or 1990s due to closure of the sawmills it served. I could be wrong about that, though.
That was the case for many years - I still have a copy of Freeman Hubbard's Railroad magazine from the early 1970's with a lengthy article on same.
Railway Man At least one did, the City of Prineville, Oregon, which built a 19-mile short line to connect itself to the Oregon Trunk when it bypassed Prineville in 1917. The railway is a city department and is still owned and operated by the city.In a similar vein is the CNO&TP, built by the City of Cincinnati to assure its position as a gateway to the south, and still owned by the city (and operated by NS).RWM
At least one did, the City of Prineville, Oregon, which built a 19-mile short line to connect itself to the Oregon Trunk when it bypassed Prineville in 1917. The railway is a city department and is still owned and operated by the city.
In a similar vein is the CNO&TP, built by the City of Cincinnati to assure its position as a gateway to the south, and still owned by the city (and operated by NS).
If memory serves this railroad covers the towns costs and there are no taxes (property? sales?) in Prineville.
Railway Man al-in-chgo If railroads were the dot-coms of the late 19th Century, then I guess we could say that UP was the Microsoft of its day. No, that would be the Pennsy and the NYC. The western transcons were pipsqueaks compared to those two behemoths. RWM
al-in-chgo If railroads were the dot-coms of the late 19th Century, then I guess we could say that UP was the Microsoft of its day.
If railroads were the dot-coms of the late 19th Century, then I guess we could say that UP was the Microsoft of its day.
No, that would be the Pennsy and the NYC. The western transcons were pipsqueaks compared to those two behemoths.
Point well taken, RWM! - a.s.
Without a doubt Cincinnati's CNO&TP building has been the most prominent of the City built RRs. It was built in competition with Louisville's L&N going from Louisville to New Orleans. The CNO&TP went through a very mountainous areas and got its nickname the "RAT HOLE" for all its small narrow tunnels. When it got to Chatanooga it was able to join up with the AGS (Alabama Great Southern) and NO&NE (New Orleans and Northeast) to form the Queen (Cincinnati - queen city) and Cresent route.These RRs all became part of the Souther RR but remained separate corporations because of Alabama and Mississippi laws requiring state corporations be based in their state much like the Cotton Belt (SSW) in Texas. When those laws finally repealed all integrated into NS.
al-in-chgoIf railroads were the dot-coms of the late 19th Century, then I guess we could say that UP was the Microsoft of its day.
Murphy SidingRailway Man Murphy Siding Didn't Brigham Young build a railroad north from Salt Lake City to meet the UP near Ogden? Or was that built as part of UP? I read Boyd's original question as being about "completely separate" projects in which the big railroad took no direct financial stake. The Utah Central very much had UP participation in its financing. Similarly, the Denver Pacific, which connected the UP main to Denver for identical reasons, had UP participation. RWM Was UP involved in Utah Central from the start? I know that the idea for it must have come up, once the citizens of Salt Lake City realized UP was going to be bi-passed by UP. I seem to recal the Utah Central, the grading of the UP, and The Mormon construction crews all being somewhat tied together in the same story.
Railway Man Murphy Siding Didn't Brigham Young build a railroad north from Salt Lake City to meet the UP near Ogden? Or was that built as part of UP? I read Boyd's original question as being about "completely separate" projects in which the big railroad took no direct financial stake. The Utah Central very much had UP participation in its financing. Similarly, the Denver Pacific, which connected the UP main to Denver for identical reasons, had UP participation. RWM
Murphy Siding Didn't Brigham Young build a railroad north from Salt Lake City to meet the UP near Ogden? Or was that built as part of UP?
Didn't Brigham Young build a railroad north from Salt Lake City to meet the UP near Ogden? Or was that built as part of UP?
I read Boyd's original question as being about "completely separate" projects in which the big railroad took no direct financial stake. The Utah Central very much had UP participation in its financing. Similarly, the Denver Pacific, which connected the UP main to Denver for identical reasons, had UP participation.
Absolutely it was involved! Discussions between the UP and the Church began before the main line even entered the state. Bishop Sharp was deeply involved in the finance and construction of the UP and close with Brigham Young. The UP was very interested in where its traffic was going to come from, and the designs of other railroads, both to know their potential contribution as well as to know if they were competition or tools of competitors. The UP did not want the CP building the Utah Central or being in partnership with it.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
The Iron Mountain bypassed Augusta, Arkansas, so the Augusta Railroad was built to connect the county seat with New Augusta. The current AAA atlas shows Augusta, but not New Augusta.
Johnny
PNWRMNMMurphy, Yes the first line between Salt Lake City and Ogden was the Utah Central, a narrow gauge built by Brigam Young/the Church of Jesus Chirst of Latter Day Saints. The latter Utah Northern to Butte, and Utah Southern were also related to the Utah Central, to the church, and to the UP. Young's dealings with the UP got to be very tangled, since the UP did not pay the bills it owed to Young. UP's dealings were far from honest as, and for a while after, they completed their line in 1869. I have never seen any book that closely examines the Utah undertakings. Mac
Murphy,
Yes the first line between Salt Lake City and Ogden was the Utah Central, a narrow gauge built by Brigam Young/the Church of Jesus Chirst of Latter Day Saints. The latter Utah Northern to Butte, and Utah Southern were also related to the Utah Central, to the church, and to the UP. Young's dealings with the UP got to be very tangled, since the UP did not pay the bills it owed to Young. UP's dealings were far from honest as, and for a while after, they completed their line in 1869. I have never seen any book that closely examines the Utah undertakings.
Mac
Mac, this subject is detailed in several books:
UP paid in kind for the grading contracts with materials (iron rail and jewelry) to build the Utah Central and Utah & Southern, through John Sharp, an official in the Mormon Church, a tireless advocate of railway development, and a member of the UP Board of Directors. Sharp did more to develop railways in Utah than the next ten most active men combined. I'm not sure I would classify the dealings as dishonest which requires intent to defraud, but more of "negotiated on the fly."
If a town felt left out, it somehow found a way to build a railroad to the nearest junction...often local businessmen or factory or mine might do it. Most common was towns which subscribed to railroad bonds to attract the rails to their political bounderies. Some got main lines, others got branch lines or stub ends of branch lines. Many often got bankrupt. In some NY towns, bonds were still being paid off in the mid 1900's although tracks had been ripped out for decades. O&W followed the money: Syracuse said no to bond subscription so the railroad went east and north of the city. Some towns offered at least to build a station for the railroad. But if they didn't, the railroad didn't go there; Huntington and Huntington Sta. on Long Island is an example.
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The town of Warrenton, NC (just south of the NC/Va line) did not want the Raleigh & Gaston to come through Warrenton as they thought the trains would scare the local populace, this being about 1834-5. So the R&G went four miles to the north through Norlina. This became the first part of the Seaboard Air Line that went from Raleigh NC to Portsmouth Va. Eventually the town saw its mistake and built the Warrenton Railroad, 4 miles north to Norlina. Of course the main north south stem of the Seaboard was routed through Norlina which was the top of the funnel for the busy section of the Seaboard that was between Norlina and Hamlet. There are still five spokes out of Hamlet, one north, two south, and then the east/west spokes. Now the line from Norlina to both Richmond and Portsmouth are trunciated at Norlina due to CSX stupidy however the SE high speed route will re-install the part to Richmond.
This brought up a few memories as back in the early 70's I sought out, but have since lost the photographs I took of the Warrenton . They had a small GE or Plymouth critter at the time.
John
Sycamore, IL built a line to connect with the CNW main line. During the mid 1800's Sycamore was backing a different RR and wouldn't back CNW also so they built about 5 miles south and in the process pretty much created DeKalb and Cortland. Eventually the RR Sycamore was backing folded and they were left without a RR, which would likely mean death of the city. So the city built it's own RR due south to connect with the CNW main at Cortland, DeKalb was already fast growing and Sycamore didn't want to give it another connection to further gow with. The line the "Sycamore & Cortland" was eventually bought by the CNW and abandoned in favor of the CNW and CGW lines between Sycamore and DeKalb.
Go Huskies. Forward Together Forward
Fan of - C&NW - Milwaukee Road - CGW -
I think more commonly, the towns would form booster clubs to attract railroads, and offer the railroads a bucket-O-money. Typically, you'll read it in the town's history book. It's usually a white-washed version of : "Sioux Falls business club boosters, short of actually bribing someone personally, have offered free land for a station and yard to the first railroad into the bustling ,new city. Also, $75,000 in green cash money will be awarded to help cover costs of the railroad". The more forsighted of these towns also seemed to ofer incentives to bring a second or third, competeing line into the town. Their Mamas didn't raise no fools.
Particularly in the early days of railroading, when railroads often had names that amounted to the "This Town & Next Town", towns often contributed heavily (both individuals and the local governments themselves) toward the building of a railroad to their locale. That's one reason the Northeast was so overbuilt with railroads early on. Of course, in most cases the serial shortlines were melded into longer lines - NYC is the example I'm familiar with.
That's also why there was so much paring when all of the lines got merged with PC and especially CR.
Many spur lines died when the automobile arrived and provided the same (or sometimes better) options for travel and shipping.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
I think it also worked out that the town simply petered out in favor of one that was on the railroad if they failed to make a connection. To take an example, the Close brothers founded a town in Plymouth County, Iowa, in 1876 and called it Quorn. By 1882 it had a general store, two drug stores, a saloon, a blacksmith shop, a grain mill, a post office and perhaps 400 people. A couple of years later another developer named Blair laid out a townsite 2 miles to the southeast and named it Kingsley. He pursuaded a railroad to build through there on its way to a connection with the "Omaha Line" south of Sioux City.
The businesses that had been located in Quorn relocated to Kingsley. Quorn finally relinquished its city charter about 1920 and the only thing that remains today is the Quorn cemetery. Although Kingsley lost its railroad (the CNW) in the 1960's it remains a thriving farm community,
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