RE:FLAT WHEELS.

[Anonymous]

It Is truly amayzing of how many trains today have that loud noise coming from under the trains as thay roll by today, and yet I wonder.....Is It just good ol railroading .....or Is It just plain old anoying?

[CShaveRR]

I've thought about that...

The theory is, these cars wouldn't be out there if the flat spots were of a size that would cause the wheel to be condemned (maybe Ed can find the limits...I know it has something to do with one spot of a given size, or two of a lesser size within a given distance).

I seem to notice them more now than I used to. But I suspect that the reason for that is that they used to either blend in with, or be drowned out by, the clickety-clack of the wheels going over joints on both rails 39 feet apart. I can wander over to the CN (former CC) main line through the area when a train goes by, and I won't notice the flat wheels...I'll be hearing the rail noise and standing back...'way back!

[Anonymous]

I saw a real bad case sometime in '03 on CPRail's Mactier sub. at the Ypres siding. An empty flat car had to have all 4 axles replaced. My guess is, the brakes never realeased at departure. Which means it slid along for the 25 miles or so from Toronto, north to Ypres. The repair took place on the north leg of the "Y" that leads into a hydro sub-station. (The south leg was removed a few years ago. Something to do with land ownership.)

[kenneo]

My opinion is that since there is not anybody on the markers any more and since no body then rolls the train, well, it's not that nobody cares, it's that there is nobody to care.

[edblysard]

Mrlove,
A lot of the flat spots are coming out of yards where remotes are used, like kenneo said, not enough people around to notice the wheels sliding.
It not that they dont care, it is because their not in position to see.
Belive me, we care, because we have to ride this stuff in yards.
Carl, I will look in the AAR Rules of interchange and find the size of the flat spots allowed.

Personally, I have noticed the flat spots on more covered hoppers than anything else, because they are light when empty, and slide easier, and due to the fact that a lot of the plants that use covered hoppers down here have their own in house switch crews, and they dont care what they do to cars as long as the get them moved.
Add to it the fact that the hand brake is harder to get to on them than say, a tank car, so they just leave it on and drag it around that way.

Ed

[Anonymous]

I believe a skid cannot measure more than 2.5" in length.

Seems whenever there are empty coal trains going by there are always a number of "thumpers."

Some of them are good enough to give the ground a good shake when they go thumpin' by, but I suppose as long as they are within the limits nobody cares.

[BaltACD]

CSX and I presume the other Class I's are in the process of installing Wheel Impact Detectors....These devices measure vibrations from the passage of trains and indicate those cars that have excessive flat spots....There are two levels of reading that are transmitted. Level I lets the car continue to the next terminal at not exceeding 30 mph. Level II requires the cars to be set out at the nearest possible location. Certain of the detectors are very busy and flag one or more cars per day that require set out.

[edblysard]

Ok, here we go.
AAR Field manual, 2003.
Rule 41, page 269

Shelled tread: whenever any shell or spall is 1 inch in diameter, the wheel must be removed from service.
Islands of original tread surface metal contained in the shell or spall will not be considered as part of the area of the shell or spall.
(in other words, it has to be a complete 1 inch spall. )

page 270 Built up tread.

A wheel is condemnable whenever the tread has built up metal 1/8th inch or higher than the wheel tread.

page 277 deals with impact detectors and out of round wheels.
Impact in excess of 90,000 pounds for a single wheel is a defect.
(there is about three more paragraphs)

Slid flat, page 279

Slid flat:
A; 2 inches or over in length
B: 2 or more adjoining spots each 1 1/2 inch or over in length.
C: Mate wheel is automatically condemable regardless of of length of flat spot.
D: apply guage as shown...(drawing of how to measure )

Help any?

Ed

[Anonymous]

Yeah, I'd have to say that covered hoppers are the most abused cars on the system due to how they are handled at grain elevators. The elevator crews, just like Ed said tend to leave brakes on and just drag the cars where they need em.

[mvlandsw]

I have noticed a lot more flat wheels in trains than what there used to be. One day while watching trains go by while waiting to leave a yard I conducted some research on the subject. I noticed that on cars with truck mounted brake cyclinders the flat spots were almost always on only the B end of the car. On these cars the hand brake applies the brakes on only the B end truck since there are no rods and levers connected from this truck to the opposite end of the car. This seems to indicate that the flat spots are the result of moving the car with hand brake applied tightly enough to slide the wheels. This is mainly due to trainmen being too lazy to release and reset the hand brakes when switching the cars.

[UPTRAIN]

I think if the flat spot excedes like 1 and a half inches they have to bad order it. I've heard those things as long as I can remember....as long as there has been busting air hoses and emergency brake valves!!! [;)]

[Anonymous]

To:UP TRAIN.
..........................I say very true.....I went railfaning this weekend on the BNSF and sure enough more flat wheels.....thats until a new empty coal hopper comes by. oh well I've,got use to It.

[Anonymous]

Ed-

According to my handy dandy GCOR flat spot measuring card (BNSF issues) Rule 101.28 provides that a car with a single flat spot of 2 1/2 inches or greater in length on one or more wheels must be set out at first available point and a car with two flat spots less than 11/2 inches apart that are each 2 inches or greater in length must be set out at the first available point.

LC

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard

Ok, here we go.
AAR Field manual, 2003.
Rule 41, page 269

Shelled tread: whenever any shell or spall is 1 inch in diameter, the wheel must be removed from service.
Islands of original tread surface metal contained in the shell or spall will not be considered as part of the area of the shell or spall.
(in other words, it has to be a complete 1 inch spall. )

page 270 Built up tread.

A wheel is condemnable whenever the tread has built up metal 1/8th inch or higher than the wheel tread.

page 277 deals with impact detectors and out of round wheels.
Impact in excess of 90,000 pounds for a single wheel is a defect.
(there is about three more paragraphs)

Slid flat, page 279

Slid flat:
A; 2 inches or over in length
B: 2 or more adjoining spots each 1 1/2 inch or over in length.
C: Mate wheel is automatically condemable regardless of of length of flat spot.
D: apply guage as shown...(drawing of how to measure )

Help any?

Ed

[TH&B]

Hand brake policies today are over kill, and that is what is causing most flat spots.
.

[daveklepper]

Somebody ought to invent a rugged quick release quick apply handbrake!


Dave Klepper

[edblysard]

LC,
The parts I quoted are from the 2003 AAR rules of interchange, which our car knockers use when inspecting inbound trains.

I noticed the GCOR were a little more restrictive than the AAR field guide.

The field guide is a interesting book, though.
It shows how to use your wheel card to check flat spots, tread build up, wheel flange height and thickness, tread grooves and tread dip or wear.
Handy little card, once you know how to use it.

Ed

[wabash1]

440cuin
hand brake rules are not over kill today. there has been many cars roll out due to the lack of hand brakes the cause of the flat spots are due to the fact nobody wants to get up the ladder and release them. it dont take long for a flat spot to be made due to not taking a hand brake off. and this goes for both emevator personel who dont care and conductors and yard forman who say im only moving it over to the next track. the key to flat spots is that if a brake is snug and you slide it that is the flat starts oh so little but its there when it gets traction and rolls it will roll til losing traction again. and where will it stop. on the flat spot. and alittle more comes off. a flat spot can start in about 100ft. remeber a wheel has a traction path about the size of a quarter. slide it 100 ft and now its closer to a half dollar. but not deep yet !! that is where time gets the wheel.

dave klepper

the quick release is already there the quick apply well there good when they work engines have electric apply hand brakes now and when the are not working you haft to crank and crank and crank... not fun. these people are hired to do a job and if they get lazy and not release or apply the brakes then it cost money and wear on equipment not needed. the fix is they need to do their job right. one thing nobody touch on here is engines with flat spots. reason for engines with flat spots is braking also dynamic brakes and no sand. it happens regularly on ns they wont put sand in the engines but want us to controll the train. hard to do with out traction.

[AntonioFP45]

On the CSX intermodals that zip out of Tampa, I've heard very loud thumping on these trains. Don't hear as many flat wheels on the phosphate hopper trains and the Trailer Train runs.[;)]

To CSX Engineer and other Railroad Professionals:

If when railfanning any of us hear some of the "severe" flat wheels, is it helpful to the railroad if we call and let them know? Or will they catch the wheel at the destined yard? As mentioned above; certain "wear" is allowed but I was curious as I've considered doing this before when I see some of these trains running at 60mph and some THUMPERS are much louder than others. These sound like "pile drivers" running in high gear! [:0]

Thanks![;)][:)][8)]

[Mookie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by AntonioFP45

On the CSX intermodals that zip out of Tampa, I've heard very loud thumping on these trains. Don't hear as many flat wheels on the phosphate hopper trains and the Trailer Train runs.[;)]

To CSX Engineer and other Railroad Professionals:

If when railfanning any of us hear some of the "severe" flat wheels, is it helpful to the railroad if we call and let them know? Or will they catch the wheel at the destined yard? As mentioned above; certain "wear" is allowed but I was curious as I've considered doing this before when I see some of these trains running at 60mph and some THUMPERS are much louder than others. These sound like "pile drivers" running in high gear! [:0]

Thanks![;)][:)][8)]

You bring up something that made the Mook stop and think - As many trains as I see and hear go by - we don't have many with the sound of a flat wheel. We get one once in a great while. Wonder why?

Now the Mookie will wonder off....

nite....

[mudchicken]

440CI: Wabash and I are on the same side on the handbrakes issue. In mountain country, the issue becomes even more severe. At Glorietta Pass in New Mexico, north of Canyoncito, there is a complete coal hopper buried in the ground somewhere (nobody knows exactly where[%-)]) after a pull-apart on the hill. The crew tied down the prescribed number of handbrakes and a cut of 28 cars behind the remotes still took off, leaving a curve at 50+ mph (had they not derailed, they would have rammed the front 2/3rds of the train setting out the bad order at Canyoncito). You err on the side of safety when in mountain country.

If the flat wheel noise is excessive and well back of the crew compartment on the head end - Call the 800 "Panic " number. It'll save a roadmaster and track supervisor a long night of looking for damaged defective rails at every impact mark on the head of the rail...(impact detectors are a LONG way from being of sufficient density and spacing in the national rail network to be as effective as they could be)

We still "roll-em by" and report to the head end anything unusual. The man at the switch still catches a good number of unreleased handbrakes set by the "joebobs" at the elevator. Some still manage to get by as Wabash has described...

The local industries switching cars with tractors, trucks and carmovers get themselves in trouble frequently after bleeding off the air on a grade only to discover there is no quick was of tying down a whole cut of cars quickly (another John Deere becomes just so much green and yellow scrap!...and Joebob has to go home and change his soiled shorts)....This, to answer another thread, is why derails are so-ooooo popular.[:D]

There are plenty of shortlines and industries out there ( to quote Ed) that use the engine brakes and not the train air brakes day-in and day-out. Makes for lots of flat spots. (Won't move? - Give it a little more throttle 'til it does!)[:-^][:-^][:-^]

[TH&B]

Well i guess if you dont put enough brakes on your in trouble, so it's better to put too many on. But what I was thinking about are a few places where for example 4 brakes are required per track in a yard (when in fact 2 good ones hold, or 3 for safe measure). Then one day a cut of cars break loose and run away.... so now they want 5 brakes. Well I'm convinced that when the cars ran away there was NOT the required hand brakes applied, or how could it have roled? Maybe it was a dinky little weakling that put the brakes on not so tight. In fact everyone knows the brakes weren't on but a new policy for 5 brkes was made anyways. So now every time someone pulls or shoves a cut you're damaging more wheels.
Also spotting and respotting some guys dont bother taking brakes off, others dont bother putting any on!
ps; in Contiental Europe many cars still dont have hand brakes, now I have seen them get roling down the hill and smash into one of their fancy passenger trains full of people (not good), but most of their daily routine switching can and is done with almost no handbrakes and this results in less flatspots.

[edblysard]

Dave,

The old crank on/off hand brake is almost gone, along with staff brakes.
Most hand brakes on railcars do have a quick release lever, all you do is lift it.

Face it, the hardest things yard crews do is tie brakes and line switches and pull pins, it aint like we pu***he cars around by hand!!

Pride in doing your job right makes the difference.

Part of the problem is that lazy yard crews dont set their bumpers correctly(The cars down in the track with hand brakes you kick the rest of the cars against)
You should tie a brake snug enought to hold the cars in place, but not so tight it locks the wheel.

But, lazy yardmen dont set the proper number of cars and brakes for bumpers, instead, they shove two cars down and tie the brakes as tight as they can, even to the point of using a piece of scrap lumber as a lever.

So when they let a cut of 5 loads fall against this one or two cars, the whole thing slides, and you have the beginings of 8 or 16 new flat spots.

Like Wabash said, once you start the process, every time you apply the brakes, it allways finds the flat spot.

In this instance, they should have shoved the 5 loads down, and tied on, set a few more good, snug brakes, and done their job correctly.

A snug, properly set brake has a little give, before it stops the cars, sorta like a shock absorber, just enough friction to slow them down and stop them, not slide them till they stop.

A experienced yardman/switchman knows his yard, and how many he can let go and how hard, where they will stop, what works and what dosnt.

A good switchman know which tracks have a deep bowl, which ones roll back, which one dont, where you need a lot of brakes, where you dont need any.

Road crews who work the same territory over and over learn where they can leave cars with just one brake, and where they need air and hand brakes, lots of them.

But good switchmen and experienced local road crews are getting as rare as new mudchickens...

No one is teaching these skills anymore, the ru***o hire, train, and get them out on the road is too great.

That isnt to say there isnt any good crews, there are, but the new hires are so rushed through their training, I doubt that if guys like LC, Carl, me or Wabash didnt tell them to do a roll by, and what to listen for, they wouldnt even realize what they were hearing, or looking for.

Down here at the Port, we havent used the mentoring system for the last few classes of new hires, and it shows in the number of kickouts, roll backs and cornerings we have had.

All of this, and of course, and pride(or lack of it) in what you do for a living plays a big role in it, a lot of folks just dont care anymore...

Ed

[Andrew Falconer]

Has anyone bothered to make a video showing the ways the brakes have been abused, leading to the flat wheels?