Spain's High Speed Trains Faster Than Planes - & Wisconsin Governor Comments

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

This morning on National Public Radio's ("NPR") Morning Edition program at 6:45 AM EST and again in a few minutes at 8:45 AM is a 4 min. 27 sec. report on the above - here's the lead-in:

"March 4, 2009 · President Obama's economic stimulus package includes $8 billion for speeding up train travel. America is far behind other industrial countries in high speed rail. A few years ago, Spain was also behind the curve. But the Spanish network is expanding fast, and the trains are beating planes."

Link:  http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=101408073 

I thought the report was pretty good.*  The Wisconsin governor (name I can't remember) - who was interviewed while on board one of those trains - mentioned that he wants to establish a high-speed rail network between Milwaukee, Madison, and Chicago (that last is a real political "touchstone" these days, I suppose).

- Paul North.

*EDIT:  I forgot to put in that the report says that although this HSR was established by Spain's Socialist government, the opposition conservative party also supports it - included was an interview with one of the conservative leaders.  [Imagine that !]

[zardoz]

Some of us Wisconsin residents have been wondering why our illustrious governor (Doyle) had to spend tax dollars to go for a train ride in another country.  Wouldn't a trip to the northeast corridor have been perhaps as informative, perhaps even more relative.  I somehow do not envision Wisconsin getting or even needing something as fancy as what Spain has.  Certainly a train like the Acela would be more than adequate for the transportation needs around here. 

In addition, if he really wanted to get the nitty-gritty about any type of rail equipment or operations, all he had to do was come on these forums; we'd have told him all (and more) than he needed to know.  With people on here like Paul North, RailwayMan, Ed Blysard, Mudchicken, Wabash1, (and others I can't think of right now), we could educate him from a perspective to which he most likely does not otherwise have access.

You'd think that a governor of the state that houses the headquarters of arguably the best railroad publications in the world, would know to tap into that resource.

[tree68]

In the governor's defense, he's probably never heard of Trains, MR, or any of the other trade publications, or even Kalmbach...

I suspect he may have travelled to Spain because of an impression that because we (the US) are so far behind in HSR that we have no idea how to do it.   His picture of rail travel probably dates to the period just before Amtrak.   We (rail enthusiasts) know better, of course.

On the other hand - looking at a system such as Spains, then dismissing it as not appropriate when we can simply take an Acela-like approach might be part of the plan, too.

[locomutt]

 Chad, Dan; Lend me your "Popcorn Similey", This one's

going to Be Very Interesting!

[htgguy]

Paul_D_North_Jr

"March 4, 2009 · President Obama's economic stimulus package includes $8 billion for speeding up train travel. America is far behind other industrial countries in high speed rail. A few years ago, Spain was also behind the curve. But the Spanish network is expanding fast, and the trains are beating planes."

 Where is the $8 billion going to come from? I'm jsut curious-seems like that might be important to the discussion.

[zardoz]

tree68

In the governor's defense, he's probably never heard of Trains, MR, or any of the other trade publications, or even Kalmbach...

Bovine excrement!

You'd think that by the time someone becomes Governor, they would know how to do an internet search.  Unless, of course, he always had somebody do that for him as well.

 

Popcorn now being popped in anticipation.....

[WM7471]

zardoz

Some of us Wisconsin residents have been wondering why our illustrious governor (Doyle) had to spend tax dollars to go for a train ride in another country.  Wouldn't a trip to the northeast corridor have been perhaps as informative, perhaps even more relative. 

 It's cold and has been snowing along the N.E.C., it's warm and sunny in Spain......Duh

[Soo 6604]

You can spend billions upon billions on rail travel but the bottom line is: YOU HAVE TO GET PEOPLE TO RIDE THOSE TRAINS!.

Question needed answered also, Do the host railroads have a say in it as being forced to host Amtrak or another entity to use their rails for passenger service? or will that RR get monies to gold plate their rails in return? I think it was a UP head that once said, "I would rather have another slow moving coal train on my line than another Amtrak train".

You'd think that by the time someone becomes Governor, they would know how to do an internet search.  Unless, of course, he always had somebody do that for him as well.

I dont think they have a government office for that. Somebody can contact him and have him open up some sort of Department of Internet Searches.

[tree68]

zardoz

You'd think that by the time someone becomes Governor, they would know how to do an internet search.  Unless, of course, he always had somebody do that for him as well.

Of course, one has to know what one is searching for, too.  The point being that he may be marvelously uninformed on passenger rail...

I just saw a post on a regional forum regarding a rumor that a third track might be restored to the NYC Water Level Route between Buffalo and points east.  At one time it was four tracks, so for the most part, the real estate is already there.  The intent, of course, would be for higher speed passenger service.

 

[CopCarSS]

It's interesting that the topic of HS Rail has been brought up. As I mentioned in the book thread, I just read Derailed by Joseph Vranich.

One of the arguments that Mr. Vranich made was that HS Rail needs to be developed independently of Amtrak. There are a variety of reasons, but mostly it comes down to the fact that Amtrak is more focused on maintaining the status quo and only in developing an incremental approach to HS Rail. Their best effort is the NE corridor, and he argues that such a system is well behind what could be. In that respect, I think he's right and that visits by politicians to other countries to see implementation of HS rail abroad is a good idea.

[CNW 6000]

locomutt

 Chad, Dan; Lend me your "Popcorn Similey", This one's

going to Be Very Interesting!

[WSOR 3801]

Maybe Diamond Jim wants to see a running train system.

The Spanish Talgo trains have been posting availability of 90% or better in the Amtrak service they are on.  The Acela has been quite a bit less. 

But many people didn't want to use a proven foreign designed system (and the FRA wouldn't allow them), and spent far more of the US (and Canada's) taxpayer's money on something new to meet the FRA regs, and all the fixes.  Your government at work.

I don't think I will see anything come out of all this HSR talk in Wisconsin, except maybe a promotion for Diamond Jim.  They way things are built up, siting stations will be very hard to do, even if they found the money to buy the landowners out.  Placing a station in MADison might be the hardest part.  Pulling the Watertown-MADison line out of the mud would probably be cost-prohibitive.

[jeaton]

Contrary to opinions suggested here, Wisconsin Governor Jim Doyle and Secretary of Transportation Frank Busalacchi may have a better handle on rail service-freight and passenger-than the average governor/state DOT leader.  Busalacchi, a former Teamster organizer, was on the US Congressional advisory/study group that produced an extensive report on US transportation needs for all modes and in spite of his motor carrier background is an advocate for improved rail services.

Given that former Trains Editor Mark Hemphill, Publisher Kevin Keefe and Sr Editor Matt VanHattem were all present when Governor Doyle joined then Amtrak President Dave Gunn at the Milwaukee Amtrak Station for Empire Builder 75th Aniversary, it seems likely that the governor is well aware that Trains is headquartered in Waukesha, WI.  If not, the staff missed an oppurtunity.

Beyond me why any busy person would wade through all the trivia and dribble put out here by forum members-including yours truly-just to come up with a few informative gems.

 

[Railway Man]

 I don't see anything wrong with taking a look at a good example of a high-speed rail system -- how else would anyone know what it is or what it does?  There's no substitute for on-the-ground observation.  I don't think I am interested in a leader that never bothers to get out of the office and see for him/herself.  And since high-speed rail seems to have a lot of voter support behind it, it doesn't seem like a waste of time or money. 

I think I would then want to look at a bad example, too -- and I know just where to find one ...

But that's just my opinion, which is worth less than nothing.

RWM

[oltmannd]

tree68

I just saw a post on a regional forum regarding a rumor that a third track might be restored to the NYC Water Level Route between Buffalo and points east.  At one time it was four tracks, so for the most part, the real estate is already there.  The intent, of course, would be for higher speed passenger service.

Back in the Conrail days, whenever NY started agitating for faster service between Albany and Buffalo, the stock answer was "pay for a 3rd track".  I guess CSX must be giving the same answer!

[zardoz]

jeaton

Beyond me why any busy person would wade through all the trivia and dribble put out here by forum members-including yours truly-just to come up with a few informative gems.

Kinda like gold mining, eh?  Lots of work, but if successful, well worth it.

[selector]

Railway Man

 I don't see anything wrong with taking a look at a good example of a high-speed rail system -- how else would anyone know what it is or what it does?  There's no substitute for on-the-ground observation.  I don't think I am interested in a leader that never bothers to get out of the office and see for him/herself.  And since high-speed rail seems to have a lot of voter support behind it, it doesn't seem like a waste of time or money. 

I think I would then want to look at a bad example, too -- and I know just where to find one ...

But that's just my opinion, which is worth less than nothing.

RWM

Au contraire, mon ami....your opinion counts for a great deal, as does the Governor's in question, and so does, to him, what the Spanish have to say about the progress they made, why they made it, what criteria they set, and then how they achieved the success they apparently have today.  There is no substitute for coal-face time, and not least for the person who has to get his constituency on board...so to speak. 

Besides, to quote an old Army aphorism, "Time spent on recce is seldom wasted." And gosh, if it didn't happen to be in sunny Spain... 

-Crandell

[Railway Man]

 

zardoz

jeaton

Beyond me why any busy person would wade through all the trivia and dribble put out here by forum members-including yours truly-just to come up with a few informative gems.

Kinda like gold mining, eh?  Lots of work, but if successful, well worth it.

More like mining for fool's gold!

[tree68]

On the lighter side, I found the way the title of the thread shows up on the main page rather amusing:

Spain's High Speed Trains Faster Than Planes - & Wisconsin Governor

Apparently he's trying to get up to speed, though....

[jeaton]

 

"

tree68

On the lighter side, I found the way the title of the thread shows up on the main page rather amusing:

Spain's High Speed Trains Faster Than Planes - & Wisconsin Governor

Apparently he's trying to get up to speed, though....

Reminds me of the sign on the side of the main garage of a bus line that served south suburban Chicago.  "Take the bus.  It's faster than you think."

[RudyRockvilleMD]

The Acela Express is a high speed train in name only. It only averages 66 mph between New York and Boston and 82 mph between Washington and New York so it is no example of what high speed rail transportation could be. The Acela Express has to share it tracks with slower Amtrak regional trains, commuter trains, and some freight trains which are enough to slow it down. Add to that north of New York the ex New Haven's Shoreline has a total curvature equivalent to 12 circles, and several moveable span bridges that open on demand and often, especially in the summer which combine to slow the Acela Express and the Northeast Regional trains down. Since the bridge opening times are often unpredictable allowance for those delays must be put into the schedules.

Whether the governor of Wisconsin was right in spending the taxpayers' money to visit Spain is something for the residents of Wisconsin to deal with. Certainly he could have obtained more credible data on high-speed rail transportation from the internet. Some may not realize it, but Spain has an interesting high speed rail operation. In addition to the TALGO's, Spain has the AVE's which link Madrid with Cordoba and Seville on a standard gauge line, and the EuroMed, which are identical in appearence to the AVE's, which link Barcelona with Valencia over broad gauge tracks.   

[jeaton]

Here what I found on the internet.  Spain's high speed system is a 20 year project with a budget of the equivalent of $136 billion US or $6.8 billion per year at current exchange rates. The planned system will eventually have 6200 route miles so the price tag is about $22 million per mile.

 With a population of 40 million, that will mean a total expenditure of $3400 per person over the twenty years or about $170 per person per year.  If the US was to spend at the same per capita rate we would be spending about $51 billion per year.

So, how does Spain manage it?  Helps a lot if you are not a super military power.  Based on 2006 numbers, we spend $1758 per person per year for our military while Spain spends only $356 each per year. 

Price we pay for being the defender of the "Free" World.

By the way, if Doyle is dropping 10 grand of state funds for the trip, my share is less than 2 cents.  If any forum members from Wisconsin are in a tight spot, let me know.  I'll send you a check for your share. 

[Phergus]

This bill was quietly passed under the most recent Bush administration as the banks were starting to fail.  Seems like some of this is already underway. 

 http://www.apta.com/government_affairs/congress/rail_safety_improvement_act.cfm

[Railway Man]

Phergus

This bill was quietly passed under the most recent Bush administration as the banks were starting to fail.  Seems like some of this is already underway. 

 http://www.apta.com/government_affairs/congress/rail_safety_improvement_act.cfm

 

Passed quickly, but quietly?

RWM

[jeaton]

Railway Man

Phergus

This bill was quietly passed under the most recent Bush administration as the banks were starting to fail.  Seems like some of this is already underway. 

 http://www.apta.com/government_affairs/congress/rail_safety_improvement_act.cfm

 

Passed quickly, but quietly?

RWM

I hear screaming and nashing (knashing?) of teeth and the TV and radio is turned off.

[Phergus]

Quiet in the sense that it didn't seem to get much press compared to sound of collapsing banks that week.

 I thought I heard that the Chicago to Madison to Minneapolis route was already under way, as is the Chicago to St. Louis route.  Chicago is supposed to be the hub of it all - another line is supposed to run to Detroit. 

[tatans]

Another concept is size, Try getting on a high speed train in Bangor, Maine for a trip to San Diego, Cal. or Sydney, Nova Scotia for a trip to Vancouver, B.C. do people realize the vast distances we have to travel in North America?  The cost is prohibitive, and the North American mentality of everyone owning  2 Buicks, just try prying someone out of their SUV and tell them to take a train, not in many lifetimes will this happen, remember when gas was 50 cents a gallon? and people said if it ever reached $1.00/gal they would sell their car- - - say, just how much is gas today????

 

 

[Boyd]

 If it were going from Chicago, through Wisconsin with a few stops, and to Minneapolis/St.Paul there would be more members of the US House and Senate to push it through than if it just went "into" Wisconsin.

Whichever high speed train picked should be faster than flying including time taken to get from your car, on board, travel, depart and back in a car or Taxi. Otherwise who would be taking the train other than people who don't like flying and train lovers? 

[jeaton]

Nobody is going to "pry" anybody out of any one mode of transportation into another, but if you have been paying attention, it is sure very appearant that great changes are taking place.  Ever hear of a company called General motors?  They and a couple of other car companies made the big bucks building low gas mileage vehicles.  Somehow the mentality of the vehicle buying public changed and these vehicles have become so out of favor that GM now finds itself in a toilet with a hand on the flush lever. 

There is no doubt in my mind that a very large proportion of the people who own "gas guzzlers" wish they had a different way to get around.  Maybe they would prefer a vehicle that just sips gas, but many wouldn't mind having reliable public transportation of another mode that would transport them with a reasonable level of speed, comfort and convenience. 

No one with a touch of reality is suggesting the building of a 200+ MPH  rail system running in the US from coast to coast, boarder to boarder or even halfway across the country.  For one, such a service would not be time competitive with ariplanes.  If you are in a hurry, fly.  Other wise even existing long distance rail service is not to far off the mark as a speed alternative to automobiles.  Unless perhaps you have a superman's constitution. 

Last fall, I took Amtrak from Chicago to Sacramento, CA-about a 48 hour run.  Mapquest says that I could drive the same trip in just under 30 hours and I would be able to average 71 miles per hour.  I figure that unless I made no stops for gas, food, "necessities" or sleep, I would probably have to drive at speeds 10 to 20 MPH over legal limits to make that time.  Of course, my other option was to fly to California, and if I had the tighter schedule typical of someone who is not retired, I am sure that is the way I would have made the trip.  A four hour flight with perhaps three to four hours to and from the airport and security checks beats the travel time of any other present method and I suspect will continue to be the "high speed" option of the future.

They goal of those who advocate high speed rail is to build services on routes of 500 miles or less, designed to be competitive with air travel between the end points of those routes.  The convential thinking seems to be that such service should be run at speed such as found in the Euopean and Far-East high speed services.  Believe me, the $8 billion authorized in the stimulous package is barely seed money for such a system. And, with maybe only $5 billion or so being considered for on going federal money such a network might near completion near the end of the century.  My personal view is that we could get a much greater bang for the buck to design and build a system with top speeds in the 100-110 range.  We would have something that would beat almost anything but the most wide open Interstate freeway routes and have a service that would look fairly good against a lot of short haul air service. 

 

 

[jeaton]

Boyd

 If it were going from Chicago, through Wisconsin with a few stops, and to Minneapolis/St.Paul there would be more members of the US House and Senate to push it through than if it just went "into" Wisconsin.

Whichever high speed train picked should be faster than flying including time taken to get from your car, on board, travel, depart and back in a car or Taxi. Otherwise who would be taking the train other than people who don't like flying and train lovers? 

How about the person that is traveling from Stillwater to some city on the line in Wisconsin and doesn't want to drive.  Oh wait, there are 5 non-stop flights between Minneapolis and Madison.  One hour flight time, add a couple hours for airport security all for only a tad over $1000 round trip.  Mapquest drive time is 4 hours 30 minutes.  Maybe a "higher" speed train makes it in 3 and a half-say 30 minutes more than flying and security checks?  Seems like much would depend on the price of the train ticket.