GN_Fan wrote the following post on Sunday, March 01, 2009:
[snipped] "...Also, the US had NO merchant marine before WW II..." [snipped]
Admittedly, this post is an old post, but seems to be in erro, based on the above statement.
The website @ http://www.usmm.org/ [ If you scroll down to the section] "A Mismatch at Sea" Indicates Merchant Marine activities back to the Revolutionary War"
I grew up in Memphis,Tn. and from time to time the local newspapers The Commercial Appeal carried stories of German's who had been held as POWs at the Defense Depot in Memphis, apparently they were used in the community for various civic projects and monitored by guards.
The on-going stories were have they had returned after the war, and their tails of how the incarceration within the USA(specifically,Memphis,Tn) had altered their outlook about America and the Mid-South area. They returned as toursits, and friends to see people that had befriended them and had helped make them appreciate their time in the POW system.
Within the following linked site there : http://www.traces.org/index.htm is a lot of information referencing both WWII Geraman and Italian prisoners in the US. There is also a mention of some 500 different locations where POWs were kept in USA
Paul_D_North_Jr There was a smiliar account in Trains 20 years or so ago (well, maybe 40 years !?! - see below), except that the train went via the PRR and Horse Shoe Curve. As I recall, the prisoners were rather happy and boisterous at their good treatment by the U.S. However, as they rolled west through the central Pennsylvania valleys that reminded them of home, they grew quieter and sadder as they realized what they were missing. [snipped]
Paul_D_North_Jr [snipped] . . . [It] was an article by Al Rung, then a PR guy with BN. He worked directly for the PRR as a military "MAIN" train liason officer for a few months towards the end of World War II - very similar to Conductor Moedinger, who however was directly employed by the Pullman Co. instead - and hence the confusion, at least in my mind. Here's the citation: "Love those diesels! - a manuscript in file for 24 years" by Rung, A. M., from Trains, April 1977, p. 26 The article related his experiences during that time, such as how the diesels would not cover the passengers with smoke and soot during the night, obtaining ice for the air conditioning in the cars, etc. He too greatly admired the GG1's, and thought that the PRR's electrification had helped to end the war sooner. That was the context for the comments, despite the title. If anyone wants more details, let me know - I could retype a few words of it, I suppose. - Paul North.
The article related his experiences during that time, such as how the diesels would not cover the passengers with smoke and soot during the night, obtaining ice for the air conditioning in the cars, etc. He too greatly admired the GG1's, and thought that the PRR's electrification had helped to end the war sooner. That was the context for the comments, despite the title. If anyone wants more details, let me know - I could retype a few words of it, I suppose.
- Paul North.
A. I don't remember how it came up now either, although I guess one connection would be that guys found guilty in New York City courts back in the Thomas Dewey / Gangster / Prohibition days would be sent to SingSing prison on New York Central trains. Since they were going north up the east bank of the Hudson to the prison (the tracks still run into a covered platform where the prisoners were detrained) they were said to be being "sent up the river" which is where that slang term for being sent to prison came from.
And a few more:
Oklahoma: "For the Duration: Behind Fences in Oklahoma" at http://rebelcherokee.labdiva.com/powcampinfo.html
Note this quote: "One small group [of German POWs] operated the ice plant for the Santa Fe Railroad . . . ".
A short article titled "Nazi Prisoners on American Soil" with 2 books referenced at the end, at:
http://militaryhistory.suite101.com/article.cfm/nazi_prisoners_on_american_soil
Arkansas, again with a list of sources at the end (mostly - but not all - for Arkansas, though):
http://www.encyclopediaofarkansas.net/encyclopedia/entry-detail.aspx?entryID=2398
- PDN.
Here's a link to the 1st "Abstract" webpage (of 7 total webpages) of a scan of a 1973 Baylor University Master's Thesis paper by Robert Warren Tissing, Jr.:
http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~txrober2/TissingAbstract.htm
Although the thesis appears to have been written around the Texas aspects of that experience - as it is titled: "UTILIZATION OF PRISONERS OF WAR IN THE UNITED STATES DURING WORLD WAR II: TEXAS, A CASE STUDY" - most of it appears to have nationwide application except for part "III - POWs in Texas".
If you read through it and pay attention to the footnotes, there are a couple of post-war U.S. Government reports that apparently were his chief sources - they may be worth getting. Notably, he claims that there were over 400,000 POWs in the U.S. in something like 450+ camps - wow ! from my cursory review, it appears to be a very workmanlike study.
I also found another website and an article by a Gary North (no relation that I know of) titled "America's WW II Prison Camps" (not dated) at:
http://www.lewrockwell.com/north/north71.html
This article appears to reference the above study, and - more to the point of the Original Post here - at about the middle of the article mentions the sailors on German ships who were taken prisoner in the early days of WW II.
- PDN.D U R I N G W O R L D W A R I I : T E X A S , A C A S E S T U D Y
German POWs arriving by train are mentioned on this website for Camp Marion, Ohio:
http://www.waymarking.com/waymarks/WM3R34
Johnny -
B. Glad that my mention of Bannerman's Castle was of interest. I had kind of forgotten it until I was typing the post, then threw it in there in for those who also know the vicinity. One of my college acquaintances who was from the area - John Atherton, where are you now ? - was pretty much obsessed with the history and condition of the place, so at the time I was very well aware of it. It turns up from time to time in the darndest writings and shows - would be hard to believe, almost like an "urban legend" - if it wasn't so well documented.
C. Yes, the interview was profitable, in that I was offered the position. However, I declined because I had another offer closer to home with an industrial railroad trackwork contractor - W.E. Yoder, Inc., still in business - that was much smaller and had more opportunities for hands-on kinds of things and professional advancement. It was - and is - one of those "road not taken" kinds of things, and I still wonder what might have been. But I have no huge regrets, because the D&H went through some hard times in the next couple of decades, and even the people I knew there then mostly didn't stay on. For example, my would-be mentor then went to the Rock Island, then the P&W, then back to the D&H & CPR, then to the G&W, now the WPa & NY, with a couple of stints in private consulting engineering practice in between. I probably could have done something like that at that age - not sure that I really would have wanted to, though . . .
Last weekend I finally unboxed my Trains from the 1960s - and skimmed through the articles by C. Grattan Price, but I couldn't quite remember just why it was that I wanted to retrieve them - and didn't, until just now - the German POW trains through Pennsylvania, etc. (see my 03-02-2009 post on Page 1 of 3 here). I've got to be out most of the next couple of evenings, but within the next week I'll try and remember to look them up again and see if that's where they are - and either way, I'll post the results here.
Have you tried researching the various military history sites or resources ? Including the US Archives - NARA, I think it's called ? I'm amazed at the level of detail that is kept and published in some of those, esp. by units that were in combat. Also, the geneaology people - this might not be common, but it can't be unheard of, I'm sure, esp. in the aeas where the POWs were kept and might have setleld post-war.
Well...this has gone on for so long I forgot what I asked about. From all of the discussions and comments, it is obvious that US prison trains were a pretty well guarded secret some 60+ years ago as absolutely no one can shed any light on them. As with some threads, the subject matter wanders off topic, and this happened almost from the start on this one. How we got to the NYC and Rensseelaer is beyond me, but I'm just glad I found out I'm not the only one in the dark on this subject.
Paul_D_North_Jr Deggesty [snipped] Stix, from the beginning of Amtrak, service to Rensselaer and points north and west was operated out of Grand Central. [snip] If you have access to old Amtrak timetables, please look at them and see what cities Amtrak has served between New York City and Rensselaer. Johnny Confirming what Johnny said above: One day in late winter / early spring 1975 I took Amtrak round-trip NYC to Albany & return to interview with the D&H for an engineering dept. position (construction inspector). Ate breakfast & dinner on the train, watching the Hudson River go by - esp. Bannerman's Castle - from the east bank, and stopping at all the major cities & towns on that side. Every 5 years or so since then I get up that way for a few days - my aunt, and her son/ my cousin & his family live about equally close to to Hudson & Rensselaer - and look for Amtrak, which still runs on the east bank all the way north from Spuyten Duyvil to just north of the Albany-Rensselaer station (recently rebuilt and modernized). They like to ride it to NYC for shopping and shows, etc. - Paul North.
Deggesty [snipped] Stix, from the beginning of Amtrak, service to Rensselaer and points north and west was operated out of Grand Central. [snip] If you have access to old Amtrak timetables, please look at them and see what cities Amtrak has served between New York City and Rensselaer. Johnny
Johnny
Confirming what Johnny said above: One day in late winter / early spring 1975 I took Amtrak round-trip NYC to Albany & return to interview with the D&H for an engineering dept. position (construction inspector). Ate breakfast & dinner on the train, watching the Hudson River go by - esp. Bannerman's Castle - from the east bank, and stopping at all the major cities & towns on that side. Every 5 years or so since then I get up that way for a few days - my aunt, and her son/ my cousin & his family live about equally close to to Hudson & Rensselaer - and look for Amtrak, which still runs on the east bank all the way north from Spuyten Duyvil to just north of the Albany-Rensselaer station (recently rebuilt and modernized). They like to ride it to NYC for shopping and shows, etc.
B. My first trip between NYC and Rensselaer was in 1969, when I had a single slumbercoach room to Detroit on the schedule that had replaced the Century and the Wolverine. My second trip was in 1984, when I rode from Rensselaer to Grand Central in Custom class (I was the only passenger in the car). In 1997, my wife and I rode from Penn Station to Montreal, and we again rode, twelve days ago, from Rensselaer to Penn Station. Paul, thank you for naming Bannerman's castle. We noticed it, and I was unable to recall the name of the man who started to build it and had to leave off building because he ran out of money. We missed seeing the facility at Ossining; we don't know anyone there, so our failure was not fatal.
C. Paul, was your interview profitable?
wjstix bedell Sorry to be a nit-picker, but Amtrak and Metro North both use the former NYCRR main line on the East bank of the Hudson. There has been no passenger service on the former West Shore line on the West bank for many years. There is some talk of reviving commuter service on the West Shore line but nothing definite yet. When did that change?? I remember being in New York and taking Metro North up the old NYC line to Poughkeepsie. This was about 10 years ago, at that time Amtrak only used the west bank and I believe had done so for some time.
bedell Sorry to be a nit-picker, but Amtrak and Metro North both use the former NYCRR main line on the East bank of the Hudson. There has been no passenger service on the former West Shore line on the West bank for many years. There is some talk of reviving commuter service on the West Shore line but nothing definite yet.
Sorry to be a nit-picker, but Amtrak and Metro North both use the former NYCRR main line on the East bank of the Hudson. There has been no passenger service on the former West Shore line on the West bank for many years. There is some talk of reviving commuter service on the West Shore line but nothing definite yet.
When did that change?? I remember being in New York and taking Metro North up the old NYC line to Poughkeepsie. This was about 10 years ago, at that time Amtrak only used the west bank and I believe had done so for some time.
If you have access to old Amtrak timetables, please look at them and see what cities Amtrak has served between New York City and Rensselaer.
GN_Fan The US did a lot of things that do not make the history books. One biggie is the cutoff of oil to Japan just before Pearl harbor. Japan has NO oil reserves, and the US gave them 2 options...(1) get out of Indochine, which was unacceptable to japan, or (2) take oil by force. In effect, FDR provoked the Japanese. Also, the US had NO merchant marine before WW II.
The US did a lot of things that do not make the history books. One biggie is the cutoff of oil to Japan just before Pearl harbor. Japan has NO oil reserves, and the US gave them 2 options...(1) get out of Indochine, which was unacceptable to japan, or (2) take oil by force. In effect, FDR provoked the Japanese. Also, the US had NO merchant marine before WW II.
Which came first, the U.S. Navy, U.S. Coast Guard, or U.S. Merchant Marine (in war service)? The Merchant Marine was first. On June 12, 1775, a party of Maine mariners, armed with pitchforks and axes, inspired by the news of the recent victory at Lexington, Massachusetts, used an unarmed lumber schooner to surprise and capture a fully armed British warship, HMS Margaretta, off the coast of Machias, Maine. The men used the captured guns and ammunition from the ship to bring in additional British ships as prizes. American privateers soon disrupted British shipping all along the Atlantic coast.
The Revenue Cutter Service was founded on Aug. 4, 1790, by Alexander Hamilton as a fleet of cutters to prevent smuggling and that is the usual date used for the beginning of the United States Coast Guard. The Coast Guard is made up of several "component" services: the Revenue Cutter Service, the Lifesaving Service, and the Lighthouse Service. The name Coast Guard was not used until the 20th Century, when the components were combined. However, the other two components were around long before 1775, especially the Lighthouse Service.
The Continental Navy was founded in 1775, but ended operation at the end of the Revolutionary War. The last warship was sold in 1785 and the Navy disbanded. The launching of the United States in 1797 marked the birth of the United States Navy.
http://www.usmm.org/usms.html
In 1938, when a second World War was imminent, President Franklin D. Roosevelt realized that winning the war would require many ships to carry war supplies to the fronts. He ordered mass-production of Liberty ships and established the U.S. Maritime Service (USMS) to train the men needed to operate these ships. Joseph P. Kennedy, (father of President John F. Kennedy) was appointed as the first Chairman of the new Federal Maritime Commission in 1937 during which he laid the groundwork for the U.S. Merchant Marine. Kennedy became the United States Ambassador to Great Britain in 1938. Retired Admiral Emory Scott Land, USN, succeeded Kennedy as Chairman, and who also headed the War Shipping Administration. Admiral Land is the genius who put together the ship production, training of the men in the USMS, and operation of the vast fleet.
The U. S. Maritime Service was set up in 1938 under provisions of the Merchant Marine Act of 1936. Its purpose is to train officers and men for an adequate Merchant Marine. From July 1, 1941 to March 1, 1942 jurisdiction was under the U.S. Maritime Commission. From February 28, 1942 the U. S. Coast Guard, under Executive Order 9083, administered the training under the direction of the U.S. Maritime Commission. In July 11, 1942, Presidential Executive Order 9198 transferred operation of the Maritime Service to the War Shipping Administration, Admiral Emory Land, Administrator. A Division of Training was established under Admiral Land.
Our local PBS station (Montgomery, Alabama) had a special on a couple of years ago about the PoW camp located in Aliceville, Alabama. I remember seeing still and "video" of German PoWs arriving in Aliceville and marching to the PoW camp.
The railroad that ran through Aliceville was the Frisco, and I did see pictures of the train. To me, they looked like standard heavyweight coaches. I don't recall seeing any bars or wire on the windows, but I didn't record it, so I can't say for sure.
Aliceville does have a PoW museum. Their website is at http://www.cityofaliceville.com/MuseumMain.htm. They may be able to provide more information, or possibly pictures, of the trains that PoWs arrived in.
I also remember reading a short story in Trains (or was it Classic Trains) about a unit of black servicemen that had to travel in uncomfortable Jim Crow cars while in the south during World War II. What really burned them up was that German PoWs were traveling in the standard coaches - the enemy was being treated better then our own GIs!
Warren
Poppa_ZitPNWRMNM The story of FDR's provacation of the Japenese before Pearl Harbor is told in the book 'Day of Deceit The truth about FDR and Pearl Harbor" by Robert B. Stinnett. Mac Day of Deceit: The Truth About FDR and Pearl Harbor. By Robert B. Stinnett. New York: The Free Press, 2000, 386 pages. $26.00. Americans have always been fascinated by conspiracy theories. At the top of our pantheon of paranoia are the myriad hypotheses surrounding the assassination of President John F. Kennedy. Close behind are the continuing arguments that President Franklin Delano Roosevelt deliberately provoked and allowed the destruction of the US Pacific Fleet at Pearl Harbor, in order to galvanize a reluctant American public into supporting national participation in World War II. This lingering suspicion is partly responsible for the recent drive to exonerate the commanders at Pearl Harbor, Admiral Husband Kimmel and Lieutenant General Walter Short, for their responsibility in the disaster on 7 December 1941.- snip - Stinnett continues to weave his web of conspiracy by arguing that for decades naval and intelligence organizations have covered up the fact that key information from radio intercepts and code-breaking revealing exact Japanese intentions was withheld from Kimmel and Short to ensure their unpreparedness.
PNWRMNM The story of FDR's provacation of the Japenese before Pearl Harbor is told in the book 'Day of Deceit The truth about FDR and Pearl Harbor" by Robert B. Stinnett. Mac
The story of FDR's provacation of the Japenese before Pearl Harbor is told in the book 'Day of Deceit The truth about FDR and Pearl Harbor" by Robert B. Stinnett.
Mac
Day of Deceit: The Truth About FDR and Pearl Harbor. By Robert B. Stinnett. New York: The Free Press, 2000, 386 pages. $26.00. Americans have always been fascinated by conspiracy theories. At the top of our pantheon of paranoia are the myriad hypotheses surrounding the assassination of President John F. Kennedy. Close behind are the continuing arguments that President Franklin Delano Roosevelt deliberately provoked and allowed the destruction of the US Pacific Fleet at Pearl Harbor, in order to galvanize a reluctant American public into supporting national participation in World War II. This lingering suspicion is partly responsible for the recent drive to exonerate the commanders at Pearl Harbor, Admiral Husband Kimmel and Lieutenant General Walter Short, for their responsibility in the disaster on 7 December 1941.- snip - Stinnett continues to weave his web of conspiracy by arguing that for decades naval and intelligence organizations have covered up the fact that key information from radio intercepts and code-breaking revealing exact Japanese intentions was withheld from Kimmel and Short to ensure their unpreparedness.
Day of Deceit: The Truth About FDR and Pearl Harbor. By Robert B. Stinnett. New York: The Free Press, 2000, 386 pages. $26.00.
Americans have always been fascinated by conspiracy theories. At the top of our pantheon of paranoia are the myriad hypotheses surrounding the assassination of President John F. Kennedy. Close behind are the continuing arguments that President Franklin Delano Roosevelt deliberately provoked and allowed the destruction of the US Pacific Fleet at Pearl Harbor, in order to galvanize a reluctant American public into supporting national participation in World War II. This lingering suspicion is partly responsible for the recent drive to exonerate the commanders at Pearl Harbor, Admiral Husband Kimmel and Lieutenant General Walter Short, for their responsibility in the disaster on 7 December 1941.
- snip -
Stinnett continues to weave his web of conspiracy by arguing that for decades naval and intelligence organizations have covered up the fact that key information from radio intercepts and code-breaking revealing exact Japanese intentions was withheld from Kimmel and Short to ensure their unpreparedness.
One of the reasons why the FDR conspiracy theories get so much traction is that FDR actually was trying to provoke Germany and Japan to attack the US, though not in the way that Stinnett postulated. American public opinion was solidly against getting involved in the war even as late as the fall of 1941, largely due to the horrendous losses in the last five months of WW1 (which would be the equivalent now of losing 30,000 GI's per month now) and due to backlash from the WW1 propaganda (which is probably where Orwell got many of his ideas for 1984). WW1 also had a significant negative impact on the RR industry.
One of the more eye opening books on the intelligence failures with respect to Pearl Harbor was written by Eddie Layton, who was Kimmel's and Nimitz's intelligence officer. His description of what happened sounds more like something out of Dilbert strip than a conspiracy novel. He also noted that the Japanese failed to destroy the fuel tank farm at Pearl, which would have done more harm than the ships that were sunk in the attack.
Day of Deceit: The Truth About FDR and Pearl Harbor. By Robert B. Stinnett. New York: The Free Press, 2000, 386 pages. $26.00. Americans have always been fascinated by conspiracy theories. At the top of our pantheon of paranoia are the myriad hypotheses surrounding the assassination of President John F. Kennedy. Close behind are the continuing arguments that President Franklin Delano Roosevelt deliberately provoked and allowed the destruction of the US Pacific Fleet at Pearl Harbor, in order to galvanize a reluctant American public into supporting national participation in World War II. This lingering suspicion is partly responsible for the recent drive to exonerate the commanders at Pearl Harbor, Admiral Husband Kimmel and Lieutenant General Walter Short, for their responsibility in the disaster on 7 December 1941.The latest book expounding this well-worn theory is Robert B. Stinnett's Day of Deceit: The Truth About FDR and Pearl Harbor. The author is a World War II Navy veteran who became a photographer and journalist for the Oakland Tribune. He has done some admirable and dogged primary research, filing innumerable requests under the Freedom of Information Act and spending many long hours searching in archives, and he demonstrates a journalist's knack for presenting a sensational story. The end result is an apparently damning indictment of FDR and his Cabinet, the Joint Chiefs of Staff, many naval officers above and below Admiral Kimmel, and the military intelligence community. Unfortunately the author failed to do much basic secondary historical research and has a tendency to leap to conclusions based on questionable or erroneous interpretations of evidence. This is a dangerous book that will dupe unsuspecting readers who misinterpret the author's earnestness and technical explanations as signs of balance and accur acy, and it will perpetuate myths that should have long been forgotten. At the core of Stinnett's case is a memorandum written by Lieutenant Commander Arthur McCollum, head of the Far East desk of the Office of Naval Intelligence, in October 1940. Stinnett interprets it as outlining eight actions designed to provoke Japan into war, and while he cannot prove FDR ever saw the document, Stinnett accepts it as the blueprint for the American actions in the Pacific leading to Pearl Harbor. Once he allegedly decided to sacrifice the Pacific Fleet, FDR carefully placed fellow conspirators in key positions, such as when he sent the Director of Naval Intelligence, Rear Admiral Walter Anderson, to command the fleet battleships. Stinnett continues to weave his web of conspiracy by arguing that for decades naval and intelligence organizations have covered up the fact that key information from radio intercepts and code-breaking revealing exact Japanese intentions was withheld from Kimmel and Short to ensure their unpreparedness.
At the core of Stinnett's case is a memorandum written by Lieutenant Commander Arthur McCollum, head of the Far East desk of the Office of Naval Intelligence, in October 1940. Stinnett interprets it as outlining eight actions designed to provoke Japan into war, and while he cannot prove FDR ever saw the document, Stinnett accepts it as the blueprint for the American actions in the Pacific leading to Pearl Harbor. Once he allegedly decided to sacrifice the Pacific Fleet, FDR carefully placed fellow conspirators in key positions, such as when he sent the Director of Naval Intelligence, Rear Admiral Walter Anderson, to command the fleet battleships. Stinnett continues to weave his web of conspiracy by arguing that for decades naval and intelligence organizations have covered up the fact that key information from radio intercepts and code-breaking revealing exact Japanese intentions was withheld from Kimmel and Short to ensure their unpreparedness.
Some mid western farmers were very pleased with their prison labor. One story I heard told that when the war ended, one farmer argued with authorities wanting to keep his "hired hand." The hired man was in no hurry to head home. His home was a pile of rubble. The "hired hand" returned to the area legally a few years later.
Many ex-POWs emigrated legally to America after the war and settled in the upper mid west. One tale tells of a vermacht veteran receiving benefits beyond VFW membership.
The man went to the bank to buy a house a few years after the war. Banks were swamped with GI housing loans. The loan officer asked the new citizen applicant if he had been in the army during WWII.
The applicant answered truthfully and the loan officer shoved some papers at him saying sign these. The applicant tried telling the loan officer for whom he fought, but was cut short. The loan officer told him just sign the papers if he wanted his house. The veteran complied and got his GI loan.
A few years later, the feds caught up to the oversight. The veteran did not get in trouble and made up the cost difference. I never did hear what happened to the loan officer.
Dakguy201 Iowa is believed to have had the largest concentration of prisoners on a per capita basis. The main camp was in north central Iowa at Algona (served by the C&NW and the Milwaukee), but there were 30-odd sub-camps scattered through Iowa, Minnesota and the Dakotas. Here in South Dakota, we had camps at Sioux Falls and Yankton. Prisoners could volunteer to work for local farmers, especially during harvest season, and there was the farmer's daughter connection. Even now, when you encounter a man of a certain age with a German or Italian accent, there is a good chance he first came here as a POW.
Iowa is believed to have had the largest concentration of prisoners on a per capita basis. The main camp was in north central Iowa at Algona (served by the C&NW and the Milwaukee), but there were 30-odd sub-camps scattered through Iowa, Minnesota and the Dakotas. Here in South Dakota, we had camps at Sioux Falls and Yankton. Prisoners could volunteer to work for local farmers, especially during harvest season, and there was the farmer's daughter connection. Even now, when you encounter a man of a certain age with a German or Italian accent, there is a good chance he first came here as a POW.
When I was growing up in Richfield Minnesota my friend's Dad applied to join the local VFW in the 70's. That wasn't unusual as many of us were the kids of servicemen from the war. His application was going thru fine until they had trouble matching up his information with military records. Finally they figured out that he had been in the Wehrmacht, not the US Army.
I didn't ask too much about his Dad's military record as it was a bit of a touchy issue, but I wonder now if he first came to MN as a POW?? I hadn't realized there were so many POW camps here in the upper Midwest.
Oh by the way...No, they didn't let him join the VFW.
Some of the German POW's were housed in Reidsville, GA (+/- 70 miles SW of Savannah) at what was then the state's only maximum security prison. My guess is they weren't housed in the prison itself but in a camp on the prison farm, which was and is pretty large. The POW's may have been available to all local farmers for labor when needed, but my grandfather used them some because both of his sons were in the Army at various times.
On the subject of Prison Trains in the last year of WW II my dad served as a guard at Fort Leavenworth Kansas and has often related the story of trains coming to the Fort with German SS troops and some Italian prisoners. He said that most had been captured in the Italian Campaign but related very little about them being any kind of special trains other than having lots of US Army armed guards. In any event he said as soon as the war ended they were sent back to Germany and Italy as fast as they could get them out of Kansas. He always said the Italians were model prisoners but the SS troops could not be trusted. He related how a couple of SS prisoners killed one of the US Army soldiers in an escape attempt and were subsequently tried and shot.
Al - in - Stockton
Well....this did who thing didn't turn out like I'd expected, but I guess that's the way it goes. I learned a lot of stuff, one of which was that I'm not a very good historian, and I stand corrected on a number of issues, but the most important thing I think is that not a whole lot is known about the trains themselves.
Prior to my wife finding her father's letters, we possessed a ship's clock that her father had said was taken from the Leme just prior to it's scrapping in the mid 50's. The clock is a normal ship's clock, heavy steel painted black, but whatt was intrigueing about it was that it was built by the Sun Ship Building and Drydock Co. of Chester, PA. My question was why is an American clock mounted on an Italian ship? The quest started for us, and it was learned that a whole bunch of ships were taken over by the US Maritime Commission and used in the war effort. We surmised that the Leme was retrofitted in the US before being given to the British Minisry of War Transport, who renamed it Lowlander. Up to this point I had no idea of the history behind the confiscations...only that my father-in-law was a POW at Ft. Missoula, and that he was taken prisoner in Philadelphia.
The discovery of my father-in-laws letters started us again wondering, as he mentioned that the crew was interred in Glouster...state unknown, and after some time there were trials or whatever you want to call them. He was a very likable man, and some on the crew were trying to get him back to Italy. However, that was a long process, and everyone but him was shipped to Ft. Missoula, leaving him virtually the only prisoner in camp. After three months of being alone and realising the futility of everything, he decided to go to Ft. Missoula to be with his crew. That was where the prison train came in, and the references to people from Savannah, GA and the bars on the windows.
Over the course of years, his letters changed from very romantic to very practical, and it became clear that he had given up on returning home. After Italy switched sides, the prisoners were "free" in a sense, as they were given jobs, and he worked at the hospital in Great Falls. At the end of the war, many prisoners remained in the US, and we met two of them in Missoula, when we lived close by in the '70's. He returned to a ruined Italy in 1946, vowing never to return to the sea, a promise he kept. Just before he died of cancer in 1965, he made it....he basically was the Italian equivalent of a CEO for the Trieste branch of Italia Navigazione...the Italian Steamship Lines.
For what it's worth, that ship's clock is mounted on the wall where I type this letter...his old study. It's a story that cries for further study. And again, sorry about the inaccuracies.
Roger
WARNING: WANSWHEEL"s german pow photos have a worm. Sir please delete your post!!!!
Eric take notice
Railway Man Paul_D_North_Jr [ snip] Of course, the U.S. has had a merchant marine "in fact" as in a commercial shipping fleet since the founding of the Republic. [point to RWM] However, it was not officially established and sanctioned "in law" as a branch of the U.S government and military services until the Merchant Marine Act of 1936 [point to GN_Fan - conceding that 1936 = WW II]. All clear on that now ? [snip] From the Wikipedia article on the United States Merchant Marine, at about halfway down the web page found at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Merchant_Marine "The Merchant Marine Act of 1936 was enacted "to further the development and maintenance of an adequate and well-balanced American merchant marine, to promote the commerce of the United States, to aid in the national defense, to repeal certain former legislation, and for other purposes." Specifically, the Act established the United States Maritime Commission and required a United States Merchant Marine that consists of U.S.-built, U.S.-flagged, U.S.-crewed and U.S.-owned vessels capable of carrying all domestic and a substantial portion of foreign water-borne commerce which can serve as a naval auxiliary in time of war or national emergency." Paul, what nation if any did have a merchant marine as a uniformed branch of the armed services in 1936? To say the U.S. had no merchant marine implies that others did -- please point me to them, and point me to how significant they were in terms of DWT, number of ships, or market share. Take a look at Rene de la Pedraja, "The Rise and Decline of U.S. Merchant Shipping in the 20th Century." It's the standard text on the subject. I don't think anyone in the industry would ever agree that the U.S. had no merchant marine prior to WWII, except as a hair-splitting exercise. RWM
Paul_D_North_Jr [ snip] Of course, the U.S. has had a merchant marine "in fact" as in a commercial shipping fleet since the founding of the Republic. [point to RWM] However, it was not officially established and sanctioned "in law" as a branch of the U.S government and military services until the Merchant Marine Act of 1936 [point to GN_Fan - conceding that 1936 = WW II]. All clear on that now ? [snip] From the Wikipedia article on the United States Merchant Marine, at about halfway down the web page found at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Merchant_Marine "The Merchant Marine Act of 1936 was enacted "to further the development and maintenance of an adequate and well-balanced American merchant marine, to promote the commerce of the United States, to aid in the national defense, to repeal certain former legislation, and for other purposes." Specifically, the Act established the United States Maritime Commission and required a United States Merchant Marine that consists of U.S.-built, U.S.-flagged, U.S.-crewed and U.S.-owned vessels capable of carrying all domestic and a substantial portion of foreign water-borne commerce which can serve as a naval auxiliary in time of war or national emergency."
From the Wikipedia article on the United States Merchant Marine, at about halfway down the web page found at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Merchant_Marine
"The Merchant Marine Act of 1936 was enacted "to further the development and maintenance of an adequate and well-balanced American merchant marine, to promote the commerce of the United States, to aid in the national defense, to repeal certain former legislation, and for other purposes."
Specifically, the Act established the United States Maritime Commission and required a United States Merchant Marine that consists of U.S.-built, U.S.-flagged, U.S.-crewed and U.S.-owned vessels capable of carrying all domestic and a substantial portion of foreign water-borne commerce which can serve as a naval auxiliary in time of war or national emergency."
Paul, what nation if any did have a merchant marine as a uniformed branch of the armed services in 1936? To say the U.S. had no merchant marine implies that others did -- please point me to them, and point me to how significant they were in terms of DWT, number of ships, or market share.
Take a look at Rene de la Pedraja, "The Rise and Decline of U.S. Merchant Shipping in the 20th Century." It's the standard text on the subject. I don't think anyone in the industry would ever agree that the U.S. had no merchant marine prior to WWII, except as a hair-splitting exercise.
RWM
We have a saying here in our office: "That's not a trench I want to die in." I'm going to invoke that principle now, on this subject.
To clarify: I was not (and am not) intending to address the military status of the merchant marines of other nations - my minor interest is in the merchant marine of the U.S. (only). From the context and paragraphing of the original post by GN_Fan on 03-01-2009 at 4:11 AM that "Also, the US had NO merchant marine before WW II." - I'm not quite sure what his point was, or what implication can be fairly drawn from it. (Reading minds is not one of my professional degrees, nor is it an amateur interest - I'd rather that GN_Fan speak for himself on all this.) I was merely pointing out that my understanding is that the U.S. Merchant Marine (only) - note the capital "M"s - was not officially organized and established as military branch until the 1936 Act. For sure I was not (and am not) intending to say anything at all about the status of any other countries' merchant marines, so I was not intending - either expressly or inndirectly - to imply anything at all about them, either.
Your inference and conclusion seems reasonable and justified - that the objective purpose of the statement and its structure was to compare the U.S. merchant marine's status with others - but I'm not seeing that from the context. Instead, it seems to me as if he's saying that the U.S. used the broken propeller as a pretext to seize the ship so as to build up the U.S. merchant marine fleet - but that's just my interpretation. Whether that was his intent - and whether any of that is actually true, correct, and complete - I have no knowedge, do not defend it, and am not really interested in discussing further.
Nor am I saying that the U.S. had no actual merchant marine prior to WW II - "de facto", as in a whole lot of real ships - though again, I'm not sure what GN_Fan's intent or point was here, either. There are way too many photos of ships and docks for me to make such an absurd assertion - and I have no interest in splitting those hairs. (Am I missing some unrecognized nuance here ?)
Finally, another oft-used turn of phrase from our office, to sum up what I get for sticking my nose into this thread in "good faith" and and trying to straighten out what then appeared to me to be be well-intentioned and inadvertent confusion: "No good deed goes unpunished."
But thanks for the reference to the book anyway - I hadn't heard of it before, and I'm always interested in such things.
PNWRMNMThe story of FDR's provacation of the Japenese before Pearl Harbor is told in the book 'Day of Deceit The truth about FDR and Pearl Harbor" by Robert B. Stinnett. Mac
It's a story, all right.
Paul_D_North_JrRWM and GN_Fan - I suspect you guys are both right in your own way, but are "posting past each other" - you know, like "2 ships passing in the night" ! Of course, the U.S. has had a merchant marine "in fact" as in a commercial shipping fleet since the founding of the Republic. [point to RWM] However, it was not officially established and sanctioned "in law" as a branch of the U.S government and military services until the Merchant Marine Act of 1936 [point to GN_Fan - conceding that 1936 = WW II]. All clear on that now ? I have a minor interest in all this becasuse the guy who really nurtured my railfan interest was Ernest Matzig - an old family friend of my then-deceased grandfather - who was a licensed ship's Chief Engineer, a member of the Merchant Marine, and who had a couple ships sunk underneath him off the Atlantic coast by German submarines during WW II. During the time I knew him he worked for Bethlehem Steel Company, mainly aboard their ore-carriers Venore and Marore, which however were then frequently chartered to carry U.S. surplus grain to the USSR and India*, among other places. We often met him when his ship came into either Philadelphia or Baltimore to unload. Every couple of years he had to go to the U.S. Coast Guard office off Battery Point in New York City to renew his license, and he often took me along by train from the Reading RR's Jenkintown Station to the CNJ terminal (I guess - I was pretty young then). He and I also used to go and train-watch - in the early and mid-1960's - in Fort Washington, PA where the PRR's Trenton Cut-Off - electrified & double tracks - crossed a trestle over the Reading's Bethlehem Branch - also electrified & double tracks, which also had commuter trains. Perhaps needless to say, but that was a busy place back then ! When applying to colleges, I was also accepted into the U.S. Coast Guard Academy at New London, but declined. of course, I sometimes now wonder "What if ?" Anyway, thanks, Uncle Ernest - R.I.P. - Paul North. * - In his retirement years, Ernest lived with his brother and sister-in-law in St. Louis, where there were then (and now) occasional brutal heat waves. However, after enduring 120-degree heat in the engine room while unloading in or near Calcutta (now Kolkata), he had no problems with the heat: "I don't understand what everyone is complaining about - feels OK to me, and it helps my arthritis ! " From the Wikipedia article on the United States Merchant Marine, at about halfway down the web page found at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Merchant_Marine "The Merchant Marine Act of 1936 was enacted "to further the development and maintenance of an adequate and well-balanced American merchant marine, to promote the commerce of the United States, to aid in the national defense, to repeal certain former legislation, and for other purposes." Specifically, the Act established the United States Maritime Commission and required a United States Merchant Marine that consists of U.S.-built, U.S.-flagged, U.S.-crewed and U.S.-owned vessels capable of carrying all domestic and a substantial portion of foreign water-borne commerce which can serve as a naval auxiliary in time of war or national emergency."
RWM and GN_Fan -
I suspect you guys are both right in your own way, but are "posting past each other" - you know, like "2 ships passing in the night" !
Of course, the U.S. has had a merchant marine "in fact" as in a commercial shipping fleet since the founding of the Republic. [point to RWM] However, it was not officially established and sanctioned "in law" as a branch of the U.S government and military services until the Merchant Marine Act of 1936 [point to GN_Fan - conceding that 1936 = WW II]. All clear on that now ?
I have a minor interest in all this becasuse the guy who really nurtured my railfan interest was Ernest Matzig - an old family friend of my then-deceased grandfather - who was a licensed ship's Chief Engineer, a member of the Merchant Marine, and who had a couple ships sunk underneath him off the Atlantic coast by German submarines during WW II. During the time I knew him he worked for Bethlehem Steel Company, mainly aboard their ore-carriers Venore and Marore, which however were then frequently chartered to carry U.S. surplus grain to the USSR and India*, among other places. We often met him when his ship came into either Philadelphia or Baltimore to unload. Every couple of years he had to go to the U.S. Coast Guard office off Battery Point in New York City to renew his license, and he often took me along by train from the Reading RR's Jenkintown Station to the CNJ terminal (I guess - I was pretty young then). He and I also used to go and train-watch - in the early and mid-1960's - in Fort Washington, PA where the PRR's Trenton Cut-Off - electrified & double tracks - crossed a trestle over the Reading's Bethlehem Branch - also electrified & double tracks, which also had commuter trains. Perhaps needless to say, but that was a busy place back then ! When applying to colleges, I was also accepted into the U.S. Coast Guard Academy at New London, but declined. of course, I sometimes now wonder "What if ?" Anyway, thanks, Uncle Ernest - R.I.P.
* - In his retirement years, Ernest lived with his brother and sister-in-law in St. Louis, where there were then (and now) occasional brutal heat waves. However, after enduring 120-degree heat in the engine room while unloading in or near Calcutta (now Kolkata), he had no problems with the heat: "I don't understand what everyone is complaining about - feels OK to me, and it helps my arthritis ! "
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