I don't want to crush any dreams, but the same research train was down here in Sylva on the T-line (Murphy Branch) just the day before.
JohnJ I suppose the name of the place i saw it isn't Fletcher. Its Naples. Or is it Mountain Home? Right there behind the big shoe store after you cross the interstate heading South.
I suppose the name of the place i saw it isn't Fletcher. Its Naples. Or is it Mountain Home? Right there behind the big shoe store after you cross the interstate heading South.
[quote user="dubch87"]
[quote user="pretcho"]
"...I just saw Track Geometry Train 905 heading towards Landrum on the W-line! I followed it from the Amtrak station to Sigsbee. Sorry, I would of chased it further, but I had to get to school! I have a few pictures (not good ones) but I can't figure out how to post them..".
[/quote]
I imagine they are checking for any defects in the work they completed last winter/spring after going through all the weather extremes for a year. Someone with expertise in that field can chime in.
JohnJ "...Interesting, the Geometry train was also on the W line on the NC side last week. I saw it heading south through Fletcher..."
"...Interesting, the Geometry train was also on the W line on the NC side last week. I saw it heading south through Fletcher..."
Where exactly? Curious to know if they only checked as far as where they completed work last year (spur to coal plant, which is north of Fletcher), or if they continued to the cut east of Flat Rock.
I still wouldn't rule this out as only routine maintenance, but NS has shown a lot of interest in getting the W-Line improved over the past couple of years.
[quote/]
For a line that seems to go through periods of such and uncertain future..The "W' Line seems to manage a lot of interest ! The last time it was removed from the Employee TimeTables was in 2001, and before that it was IIRC about 1991. So here we are about 12 years in the future and it seems to be back on the railroads radar again? Its official status is that of having been 'railbanked' by Norfolk Southern. (Railbanked means not abandoned, but sort of mothballed for potential future use.)
For many around these Forums, there is interest; in what an operation it was, and the potential for more use, by current,modern equipment. Heavier locomotives, trains with electronic braking, distributed power; laying right in the heart of a route from Southeastern Seaports to the the Ohio and Midwest Region. I used to watch the KSC run trains north and south over Rich Mountain, admittedly, not nearly the grade of Saluda; nevertheless, a rulling grade that was an operational obstacle, and headache.
Some of the things that have been going on, concerning the W Line that have been reported and chronicled around here. Visit of the NS's Exhibit Car to Landrum. Scuttlebut among railroaders around Asheville that the company was talking about a reactivation of the W line between Asheville and Spartanburg, and the operation of one of the Ns Geometry Trains on both stub ends of the Saluda Grade. I guess speculation just is tantalizing as to what might take place?
It has been a real bonus to have some of the Western North Carolina Locals checking in around here to keep us posted on the local goings on.
Link to photo of SR 4501 on Saluda in summer 1972 (naked- No diesel assist!)
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=343084&nseq=2
Has the section of track with the rails were moved laterally from track ahead and behind it been returned to normal? I think there was a pile of dirt on it or next to it too.
Modeling the "Fargo Area Rapid Transit" in O scale 3 rail.
pretcho I just saw Track Geometry Train 905 heading towards Landrum on the W-line! I followed it from the Amtrak station to Sigsbee. Sorry, I would of chased it further, but I had to get to school! I have a few pictures (not good ones) but I can't figure out how to post them.
I just saw Track Geometry Train 905 heading towards Landrum on the W-line! I followed it from the Amtrak station to Sigsbee. Sorry, I would of chased it further, but I had to get to school! I have a few pictures (not good ones) but I can't figure out how to post them.
JohnJ Interesting, the Geometry train was also on the W line on the NC side last week. I saw it heading south through Fletcher.
Interesting, the Geometry train was also on the W line on the NC side last week. I saw it heading south through Fletcher.
I think the only hope is if traffic increases enough to where they have no choice to reopen the line, but I dont see that happening anytime soon.
Thought I'd share a sort-of-not-really-related story.
Newfound Gap Rd. (U.S. 441) through Great Smoky Mountains National Park had a large washout during heavy rains in January of this year, taking out a 200 ft. section of road. A contract was awarded today for $3,989,890.00 to rebuild the road and stabilize the slope.
From what I've seen, I would estimate this washout is about four times the size of the one on the W-Line. The cost also includes rebuilding/paving the road, versus ballast, ties and rails. Still, I think it'd be fair to estimate the minimum cost of repairing the W-Line washout at $250,000-$500,000. That's a pretty good chunk of change for a line that didn't see enough service to remain open to begin with.
Its hard to believe that it would take longer, considering how far out of the way it is to go to Salisbury and up the S line.
blue streak 1 Deggesty August 1, 1954 Timetable Danville-Spartanburg: 14:10 (less :20 in Somerset, :15 in Oakdale, :25 in Knoxville, :04 in Morristown, :20 in Asheville) Spartanburg-Atlanta: 4:20 (less :10 in Greenville); arrive Atlanta 8:00 Atlanta-Danville: 8:45 (less :10 in Rome, :20 in Chattanooga, :05 in Oakdale, :10 in Somerset . I have no idea as to the exact location of the airport, but Spartanburg was at mp 452.6, Greer was at mp 471.0, and Greenville was at mp 484.1. Peasant traveling Johnny; thanks from your times I will add it for us danville - spartanburg --------- 14;10 spartanburg - GSP --------- ;25 Greer is about MP 471 One less crew change -------- - ;15 Take Morristown bypass ----- - ; 30 Grind up & down Saluda ----------- + ;10 == 14;30 ?? GSP - ATL -------- 4;00 ATL - Danville, Ky ---------- 8;45 add slower intermodal GSP - ATL ;30 No runs Howell - Terminal sta - ;30 No runs CITGO - CHA CHOO --------- - 30 == 12;15 ?? So we have a route that is ~ 2;00 less and will need less power )( extra SALUDA, Knoxville - Oakdale) This makes IMHO opening Saluda a non starter for intermodals to Cincinnati & west. That is a disappointment to me but I understand.
Deggesty August 1, 1954 Timetable Danville-Spartanburg: 14:10 (less :20 in Somerset, :15 in Oakdale, :25 in Knoxville, :04 in Morristown, :20 in Asheville) Spartanburg-Atlanta: 4:20 (less :10 in Greenville); arrive Atlanta 8:00 Atlanta-Danville: 8:45 (less :10 in Rome, :20 in Chattanooga, :05 in Oakdale, :10 in Somerset . I have no idea as to the exact location of the airport, but Spartanburg was at mp 452.6, Greer was at mp 471.0, and Greenville was at mp 484.1. Peasant traveling
August 1, 1954 Timetable
Danville-Spartanburg: 14:10 (less :20 in Somerset, :15 in Oakdale, :25 in Knoxville, :04 in Morristown, :20 in Asheville)
Spartanburg-Atlanta: 4:20 (less :10 in Greenville); arrive Atlanta 8:00
Atlanta-Danville: 8:45 (less :10 in Rome, :20 in Chattanooga, :05 in Oakdale, :10 in Somerset
. I have no idea as to the exact location of the airport, but Spartanburg was at mp 452.6, Greer was at mp 471.0, and Greenville was at mp 484.1.
Peasant traveling
Johnny; thanks from your times I will add it for us
danville - spartanburg --------- 14;10
spartanburg - GSP --------- ;25 Greer is about MP 471
One less crew change -------- - ;15
Take Morristown bypass ----- - ; 30
Grind up & down Saluda ----------- + ;10 == 14;30 ??
GSP - ATL -------- 4;00
ATL - Danville, Ky ---------- 8;45
add slower intermodal GSP - ATL ;30
No runs Howell - Terminal sta - ;30
No runs CITGO - CHA CHOO --------- - 30 == 12;15 ??
So we have a route that is ~ 2;00 less and will need less power )( extra SALUDA, Knoxville - Oakdale) This makes IMHO opening Saluda a non starter for intermodals to Cincinnati & west. That is a disappointment to me but I understand.
I didn't quite follow all the numbers here, but based on old timetables, Saluda will take much longer, despite being the shortest route?
grandeman If anyone is interested in an update, I walked the line from Saluda to Melrose (and back) this afternoon. The grade is clear of overgrowth, deadfall, washouts, etc. The signal system is in rough shape and the entire line needs to be retied. I state that because of reports here that NS crews may have been in the area recently. No work appears to have been done. I did note a few spots within the first 1/2 to 1 mile of Saluda that had fresh survey tape nailed to crossties... Not sure what to make of that. The hike was great. This was my first look at this amazing piece of railroading history that I have heard about for years. It is impressive!
If anyone is interested in an update, I walked the line from Saluda to Melrose (and back) this afternoon. The grade is clear of overgrowth, deadfall, washouts, etc. The signal system is in rough shape and the entire line needs to be retied. I state that because of reports here that NS crews may have been in the area recently. No work appears to have been done. I did note a few spots within the first 1/2 to 1 mile of Saluda that had fresh survey tape nailed to crossties... Not sure what to make of that.
The hike was great. This was my first look at this amazing piece of railroading history that I have heard about for years. It is impressive!
Eric, I wish I knew you were going there! I'd give almost anything to get back up there and get some more video if they re-open the grade.
Carey
Keep it between the Rails
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Further information from various Southern ETT's (Chattanooga Terminal Joint Time Table #95, 12 January 1958; CNO&TP #62, 7 March 1965; Knoxville Division #65, 12 January 1958) (These were the first of each that came to hand as I was going through the stack).
5.6 miles from Citico Jct. (has the name been changed to Citgo?) to Terminal station; yard limits all the way. Also, yard limits from Williams (Ooltewah line) to Citico Jct.; 1.8 miles.
No yard limits indicated from Tenbridge to Citico Jct. Incidentally, Harriman Jct. (just south of Oakdale) is the point at which the Carolina Special numbers were changed from odd to even.
New Line to Morristown--five minutes for #28; Morristown to Roe Jct.--ten minutes for #28 (six minutes for #27); New Line to Roe Jct.--nine, ten, or eleven minutes for 2nd class trains (seven and eight minutes for westbound). There must have been quite a grade eastbound.
I rather imagine that the Roe Jct.-Morristown line was abandoned after there was no longer a passenger train to use it.
Johnny
Deggesty I just looked at the SPV map of Chattanooga, and if you could have a crew change at Citico Jct., and not have to go down to the yard, you save about 10 miles instead of 4.8 miles at yard speed. There is a convenient wye there, also, and you would not have to swap ends with the power. I noticed that the south of end of DeButts Yard (formerly Citico Yard) is named Pratt, probably after I. L. Pratt, a former superintendent of the Chattanooga Terminal. I knew his brother in Reform, Alabama.
I just looked at the SPV map of Chattanooga, and if you could have a crew change at Citico Jct., and not have to go down to the yard, you save about 10 miles instead of 4.8 miles at yard speed. There is a convenient wye there, also, and you would not have to swap ends with the power.
I noticed that the south of end of DeButts Yard (formerly Citico Yard) is named Pratt, probably after I. L. Pratt, a former superintendent of the Chattanooga Terminal. I knew his brother in Reform, Alabama.
Deggesty Interesting. I do question your 30 minutes saving by bypassing Morristown: New Line to Morristown is 3.4 miles, and Morristown to Roe Jct is 2.4 miles--a total of 5.8 miles. However, it is 3.0 miles from New Line to Roe Jct., so the actual distance is only 2.8 miles less. These numbers are from the Knoxville Division Timetable #65, dated 12 January 1958.
Interesting. I do question your 30 minutes saving by bypassing Morristown: New Line to Morristown is 3.4 miles, and Morristown to Roe Jct is 2.4 miles--a total of 5.8 miles. However, it is 3.0 miles from New Line to Roe Jct., so the actual distance is only 2.8 miles less. These numbers are from the Knoxville Division Timetable #65, dated 12 January 1958.
Thanks. From your overall question, I guessed Spartanburg to be the point. I set the following up this morning in Word Perfect so it would be ready (or almost ready) when I knew where you are going. Incidentally, I undertood you to mean Danville in Kentucky, and not Danville in Virginia,
Spartanburg-Salisbury: (Crescent) 2:30 (less :05 in Charlotte)
Salisbury-Asheville: (#11) 5:30, or :11 to Barber and then #21: 4:15 to Asheville
The July 10, 1949 timetable (just before it began running through Winston-Salem), the Asheville Special was given 4:50 to go from Salisbury to Asheville.
This afternoon, I add the following: the southbound Crescent is shown taking 45 minutes from Spartanburg to Greenville, and the northbound Crescent is shown taking 40 minutes Greenville to Spartanburg. I have no idea as to the exact location of the airport, but Spartanburg was at mp 452.6, Greer was at mp 471.0, and Greenville was at mp 484.1.
Deggesty blue streak, is GSP Spartanburg? According to Amtrak, Spartanburg is SPB.
blue streak, is GSP Spartanburg? According to Amtrak, Spartanburg is SPB.
IMHO it is not the distance that is important but trip time. I cannot locate my SOU RR timetables but I would like a comparsion of the time it took the Carolina special to go from Danville, Ky - GSP and compare it to the times of the Crescent GSP - ATL + Royal Palm ATL - Danville. I would subrtact 30 minutes each for the run back times and terminal times for ATL & Chatanooga. Anybody have that info ?
ALSO construct the times GSP - Salisbury - Ashville ? vs GSP - Asheville ?
I would split the difference in times between Greenville and spartanburg which is 40 minutes so 20 minutes.
DUBCH87....Your thoughts sound reasonable.....From what you are posting, it doesn't sound very incouraging. Guess we can still hope. Thanks for info.
Quentin
I'm still unsure of the scope of this facility. From what I've been reading, this is more of a localized operation. The way it has been described, it's creating a more direct method of getting goods from the GSP area directly to the Port of Charleston, and vice versa. It will be an inland port, and not so much an intermodal facility like NS is building at Charlotte/Douglas International Airport.
The W-Line via Saluda is about 130 miles shorter than Columbia-Charlotte-Salisbury-Asheville, which is the next shortest route. When you consider the time it takes to split and reassemble a train to get over Saluda, I don't know if there will be a significant amount of time saved. When you add in the cost to get the line back into condition, plus operating costs . . . I'm having a hard time seeing NS ever doing it. And from what I've heard, the S-Line isn't exactly busy these days either, so there is no necessity to reopen Saluda for capacity reasons. However, if an intermodal can go over the hill in a couple of pulls, and you have a couple running daily straight to Cincinnati, there may be enough justification there.
I hope I'm wrong, but as long as it has been and the more I think about it, it seems unlikely. We will have to continue waiting for the next few months.
Yes those of us who live around Asheville/Hendersonville would definately love the grade to be opened again. Its still probably a stretch, But I did see a caboose on the NS local to hendersonville on Wednesday. Didnt know what to make of that
Construction at the Inland Port site near Greer S.C. is already underway. Look for the NS main line single track east of Greer on Hwy 290 to have two more sets of tracks added as a west bound entrance into the facility, thus triple tracking that section of rail. The frontage road and some older houses south of this section of track will be destroyed. As to the Spartanburg - Asheville W line, it is the most direct route to the Ohio Valley region and other points, but it remains to be seen if it will open, if ever. Hopefully, it will. All eyes and ears are on the alert.
JohnJ "...Now that all probably has to do with the inland port. I do not know what the port means for Saluda, if anything..."
"...Now that all probably has to do with the inland port. I do not know what the port means for Saluda, if anything..."
Since there has been so much interest in the future of the former Souther Rwy's "W" line, more commonly known simply as "The Saluda Grade". From time to time there has been another Thread posted on this Forum that brings information that has a bearing on Saluda. There is another Thread running here that refers to the "Inland Port bing scheduled and built near Greer, SC.
Link to that Thread is @ http://cs.trains.com/trn/f/111/t/209355.aspx
Titled :"Inland Port" Being studied for Greer, SC
GP-9 Man11786 said:"...I found this story: http://www.postandcourier.com/article/20120707/PC05/120709381 in our daily press briefing at work. It will be interesting if this so-called inland port ever gets built. It would mean a large increase in Traffic for Norfolk Southern, who's W Line make a direct link from Charleston to Spartanburg. What do you guys think?"
Then there was this Post by: dubch87
"...Inland port work to begin soon in Greer - The Greenville News, 30 December 2012
The inland port in Greer has a green light. Additional land acquisition and clearing/grading should begin this month, and from what I have Google'd, it should be finished within the year. I haven't found a response from NS, who was waiting to review the preliminary engineering report, which has obviously been completed.
Here is a map of the general vicinity (somewhere in there)..."
So it seems that the pot is bioling for possible changes on Saluda (?).. This has turned into quite a story... Many of us who follow this Thread appreciate the efforts of the area locals who are bringing in bits, and pieces to this on-going story.
Now that all probably has to do with the inland port. I do not know what the port means for Saluda, if anything.
NS seems to be on an upgrade blitz in the upstate. Along with all the work mentioned here, all the rail along the NS "V-line" from Greenville to Pelzer has been replaced with welded rail and crossings upgraded and I've noticed all the old signal masts are being replaced with the newer style signal masts and signals from Easley through Taylors.
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