Disappointing news.
Norfolk Southern will not be reconnecting the rails in Landrum for the Exhibit Car.
http://www.tryondailybulletin.com/2012/12/03/norfolk-southern-exhibit-car-in-landrum/
That's strange that it'll be that far outside of town if what he said is accurate. I thought I remembered reading a post a few pages back from a Norfolk Southern PR rep that said it would be in front of the deopt? We shall see in 2 days!
According to that e-mailed response posted a few pages back, Norfolk Southern did confirm the Exhibit Car will be in front of the depot. The Landrum Christmas Parade/Stroll was also last week, not tomorrow, as stated in the Exhibit Car schedule. It sounds like nobody knew what the heck was going on.
If Norfolk Southern is like every other corporation in existence, no one between departments probably spoke to each other. Someone approved the Exhibit Car, had no idea Landrum is inaccessible by rail, then those in charge of getting the Exhibit Car there said "why did you do this? . . . we can't get there, and we're certainly not going to spend extra money to get there." At that point, I guess they couldn't cancel. Now they're going to be stopped on the side of the road on the outskirts of an already tiny town on a Thursday.
The whole thing is just plain weird.
It seems like the whole thing was very mismanaged. From the latest news that I heard today from a contact in Landrum is that NS is going to place the exhibit car at a grade crossing East of Capps Lumber. Not the last active grade crossing on the line towards Landrum. They were also supposed to have the exhibit car on display at the Landrum Christmas parade, which happened to be last week, not this week.
Some speculation that I've heard is that NS has plans to reopen the line (and was planning to have it open by this time for at least MOW equipment), but is behind schedule with the inspections and whatever else is required.
NS employees were spotted last week inspection signal boxes near downtown Saluda. There are also newly painted propane tanks that have been installed on switch heaters below Saluda, near Person Falls Rd. NS employees have also been working on a switch in Flat Rock, just West of the cut rails, on a portion of the line that sees no traffic.
So the signs are still pointing to the line being reopened, it just sounds like typical corporate issues.
Oh the joys of small town South Carolina! I plan on riding up to Landrum tomorrow to take a look for myself, it's only about 30 minutes from where I am.
Just got back from Landrum! The exhibit car was parked at the last grade crossing before the dirt mound coming into Landrum. Didn't see any NS officials but I did talk to someone from the Hub City Railroad Museum in Spartanburg who believes that the intermodal terminal being built in Greer is going to be a big part of re-opening Saluda. When I left I decided to ride up Hwy. 176 through Tryon and Saluda to check out for myself if any work had been done. I can confirm that there are new/re-painted propane tanks at Melrose, at the switch just below Saluda where it goes from single to double track, as well as the switch on the Flat Rock side of Saluda where it goes back from double to single track. Also, driving along 176 just before Melrose I saw something that looked like a bridge with a waterfall running under it? Can't confirm that because I was trying to look for the wash out and drive at the same time, may have just been my eyes playing tricks on me. Could that possibly be a solution to the big wash outs right below Melrose, just spanning a bridge across it? Either way it was a great day for a ride through the mountains to do a little looking around for myself.
TRDevlDogAlso, driving along 176 just before Melrose I saw something that looked like a bridge with a waterfall running under it? Can't confirm that because I was trying to look for the wash out and drive at the same time, may have just been my eyes playing tricks on me. Could that possibly be a solution to the big wash outs right below Melrose, just spanning a bridge across it?
Nope, that's just a bridge over a creek/waterfall. The washout is a few hundred yards east/down hill from there, but it is not visible from U.S. 176. In the Bing Maps oblique imagery, you can see the bridge on the right and washout on the left.
EDIT: Sorry, misread your post. I don't believe the washout is large enough to justify the need or cost of a bridge. I'm not a civil engineer, but the consensus thus far seems to be a retaining wall(s), culvert/drainage, and fill.
We will continue to wait and see. NS still needs to improve all the grade crossings before getting a MOW train through there. Local residents complained about the deteriorating condition of the crossings, so the flangeways were almost entirely filled with pavement. Plus the signal system will eventually have to be replaced. If the two missing signal heads near Landrum are replaced, we'll know something is happening.
I spoke to a NS locomotive engineer who runs on the Piedmont Division. He says he hasn't heard a thing about putting this line back in use
TRDevlDog I can confirm that there are new/re-painted propane tanks at Melrose, at the switch just below Saluda where it goes from single to double track
I can confirm that there are new/re-painted propane tanks at Melrose, at the switch just below Saluda where it goes from single to double track
Is one of the propane tanks you are referring to visible in the picture posted in my signature?
I would kindly suggest that all readers interested in following any news about opening the Spartanburg - Asheville line, and, specifically, info. about Saluda Grade, keep in mind the following thought: " I'll believe it when I see it." Since Spartanburg is my home, I've fervently tried to stay on top of things, from quotes by NS engineers and maintenance employees to rumors that come and go like the wind in the night. You hear both sides and there seems to be no middle - It will open in 2013, or, it will never open unless a major wash-out occurs on another line, such as the Ridgecrest N.C. loops. Re-painting or replacing propane tanks and inspecting signal boxes at Saluda may be things that have to be done per railroad policy. When NS sends out a press release, letters to the towns along the line, repairs the washout east of Melrose (maybe), and trains actually begin to ride the rails between the two cities, then believe it. Don't get me wrong, I strongly hope the line reopens in 2013!!
@dubch87, yes that is the kind of propane tank I was referring to. When I was in Saluda one day sometime last year I rode down to Melrose to check things out and I believe I remember seeing the propane tank but the paint was chipping off and was somewhat rusty. The one I saw last week looked newer than the one from a year ago, could have been just touch up paint though. I guess I'm somewhat in the middle on this whole thing, I can see that it's gonna take a whole lot of work to get it back open but when I see little things being done it gives me a little hope. Sure was something to see a loaded woodchip train come up that hill when I was little, I'd definitely love to see it again someday. I was fortunate enough to be there the day 611 stalled just short of the crest and would love to see and hear it barking up the hill again someday as well. The sound of that exhaust echoing through those mountains was something I'll never forget!
Its stunning that a railroad has a grade equaling a Lionel figure 8 set that goes over and under.
Modeling the "Fargo Area Rapid Transit" in O scale 3 rail.
Since this topic has had so much interest arounf this Forum. I thought I would post some information that was posted to another Thread here more recently (December 10, 2012.) I am linking the information in an effort to provide some continuity for those of us who are trying to follow the happenings on the "W" Line --Saluda Grade.
"...Posted by Bunn19
"...I personally believe that it will reopen within the next few years. It does seem that NS is at least doing a feasibility study on reopening it. There have been several small clues to that make me believe this:
-They T&S'd the entire line from Landrum to Hayne Yard in Spartanburg this past February.
-NS has repainted/replaced propane tanks on switch heaters just below Melrose
-NS officials have been seen working on Signal/Relay boxes in downtown Saluda recently
-NS Track workers were seen working on a switch close to the cut rails in between Hendersonville and Flatrock, past any of the industries that are currently served.
-NS Officials stated in a town hall meeting in Tryon last January(ish) that they were planning to reopen the line in 2013 and denied the city of Tryon any encroachment of the ROW.
-The NS exhibit car was on display this year in Hendersonville and Landrum. In Landrum NS had originally planned to put the car in front of the new depot (they stated this in an official email) but then had to leave it right at the cut rails outside of Landrum because they stated they didn't have a work order to remove the pile of dirt and reconnect the rails.
None of the above are rumors. If I listed all of those I heard in the past year I'd have to write a book.
Hopefully we'll see/hear some good news in the months to come..."
Here is one of those new propane tanks at Melrose.
I'm sure the switch near Flat Rock is in similar condition.
The crossing in Saluda has been damaged. On the Main Street side, the cross-bucks are bent, and a light is askew with the bag ripped away. There is also a pile of limbs on the tracks west of Saluda visible from U.S. 176 that has been there for several months.
And Norfolk Southern has never at any time said anything to anyone about reopening the line. I don't care who talked to who, heard this from so-in-so, knows someone "high-up" - they have never publicly said a word.
There are still several indicators pointing towards the possibility of the line being reopened, but also a lot of rumors.
Is there a period of time long enough for a section of rail line is not used that a local, state or federal government entity,, or even a neighbor of a Railroad can take them to court and force abandonment? And if so, is NS doing all this to run 1 train a week on the line so they don't lose a ROW to government or even the pressure of environmental groups? I was told by an employee of the Minnesota Zephry company that the city of Stillwater, Mn forced abandonment of the RR line from just south of the Mn Zephyr property down to the crossing at Sunnyside Marina. Total length of track about 1 mile. I think the track was owned by BNSF but last used in 1995 when a steam engine visited town. Trees had grown up through the tracks south of town to Sunnyside. About 100 yards south of downtown there has been a section about 20 feet long with a washout. All the tracks through downtown accept at road crossings were pulled up in the summer of 2005. The ROW south of town will be used for a loop trail bike path once the new St.Croix highway bridge is finished. Tracks south of Sunnyside Marina are owned and used by the UP.
Everyone: Repeat after me, on 3: 1-2-3 "I'll believe it when I see it" Repeat: "I'll believe it when I see it" Dubch87 is right, and, I saw what he saw when I was at Saluda today. See my post of Dec. 9 that elaborates on this subject. These are just my beliefs, of course.
Quick question, where is the last stop the trains make on the NC side?
If anyone is interested in an update, I walked the line from Saluda to Melrose (and back) this afternoon. The grade is clear of overgrowth, deadfall, washouts, etc. The signal system is in rough shape and the entire line needs to be retied. I state that because of reports here that NS crews may have been in the area recently. No work appears to have been done. I did note a few spots within the first 1/2 to 1 mile of Saluda that had fresh survey tape nailed to crossties... Not sure what to make of that.
The hike was great. This was my first look at this amazing piece of railroading history that I have heard about for years. It is impressive!
Thanks for your time and trouble. I always check this thread.
George
JohnJ Quick question, where is the last stop the trains make on the NC side?
It used to be the GE Plant in Flat Rock, but the siding has been removed where it crosses U.S. 176. The highway was repaved in 2009/10. Before, after.
I don't know how much service it receives, but the last stop on the line is probably at this concrete plant. It looks like it's the only spot southeast of Fletcher that receives any traffic.
I also want to note that the line from Hendersonville to Brevard is in a similar rail-banked state, with a mound of dirt on the line near where it splits from the W-Line. However, the crossing gates do not have the lights bagged, and some arms are still in place. I thought this was odd, since this line is far less likely than the W-Line to see service again. Perhaps that is why the lights are bagged on the W-Line, so they stay in better condition. Keep in mind this imagery is nearly five years old, and the arms may have since been removed.
In reference to the tie and ballast work and grade crossing improvements made along the W-Line in South Carolina, it appears similar work has been completed within the past two years to the W-Line between Biltmore Yard and Duke Energy's coal plant in Skyland (Example 1, Example 2). At least one crossing, however, received no improvements, so I'm not sure if this was as big of a project as on the South Carolina side, where every crossing between the cut in Landrum and Hayne Yard received improvements. You can see the (old, new?) ties stacked in this oblique imagery conveniently acquired last winter outside of Spartanburg. Looking at the most recent aerial imagery and some Street View imagery, no such improvements have been made between the coal plant siding and Flat Rock (Example 1, Example 2).
With all of that said, I think Norfolk Southern would have completed this work all the way to Flat Rock if they had any plans for reopening Saluda soon. Of course, who actually knows? It may have been planned and postponed. That was the rumor as to why NS did not get their Exhibit Car to Landrum, although I still believe that was nothing more than a big error made by whoever does the Exhibit Car scheduling.
grandeman If anyone is interested in an update, I walked the line from Saluda to Melrose (and back) this afternoon. The grade is clear of overgrowth, deadfall, washouts, etc. The signal system is in rough shape and the entire line needs to be retied. I state that because of reports here that NS crews may have been in the area recently. No work appears to have been done. I did note a few spots within the first 1/2 to 1 mile of Saluda that had fresh survey tape nailed to crossties... Not sure what to make of that.
Thanks for the update. I would imagine those are related to a survey conducted on an adjoining parcel. Property boundaries go to the center point of the railroad ROW, as shown in this plat example at Sand Cut.
Please see the thread "'Inland Port' Being studied for Greer, SC" regarding the recent approval for constructing an intermodal terminal in Greer. If anything will cause the W-Line to reopen, it is this.
thanks for the response. I have always been curious. Do you feel that the inland port will warrant the grade reopening?
also, the lights on the line to brevard have been bagged in horse shoe and etowah
NS seems to be on an upgrade blitz in the upstate. Along with all the work mentioned here, all the rail along the NS "V-line" from Greenville to Pelzer has been replaced with welded rail and crossings upgraded and I've noticed all the old signal masts are being replaced with the newer style signal masts and signals from Easley through Taylors.
Now that all probably has to do with the inland port. I do not know what the port means for Saluda, if anything.
JohnJ "...Now that all probably has to do with the inland port. I do not know what the port means for Saluda, if anything..."
"...Now that all probably has to do with the inland port. I do not know what the port means for Saluda, if anything..."
Since there has been so much interest in the future of the former Souther Rwy's "W" line, more commonly known simply as "The Saluda Grade". From time to time there has been another Thread posted on this Forum that brings information that has a bearing on Saluda. There is another Thread running here that refers to the "Inland Port bing scheduled and built near Greer, SC.
Link to that Thread is @ http://cs.trains.com/trn/f/111/t/209355.aspx
Titled :"Inland Port" Being studied for Greer, SC
GP-9 Man11786 said:"...I found this story: http://www.postandcourier.com/article/20120707/PC05/120709381 in our daily press briefing at work. It will be interesting if this so-called inland port ever gets built. It would mean a large increase in Traffic for Norfolk Southern, who's W Line make a direct link from Charleston to Spartanburg. What do you guys think?"
Then there was this Post by: dubch87
"...Inland port work to begin soon in Greer - The Greenville News, 30 December 2012
The inland port in Greer has a green light. Additional land acquisition and clearing/grading should begin this month, and from what I have Google'd, it should be finished within the year. I haven't found a response from NS, who was waiting to review the preliminary engineering report, which has obviously been completed.
Here is a map of the general vicinity (somewhere in there)..."
So it seems that the pot is bioling for possible changes on Saluda (?).. This has turned into quite a story... Many of us who follow this Thread appreciate the efforts of the area locals who are bringing in bits, and pieces to this on-going story.
Construction at the Inland Port site near Greer S.C. is already underway. Look for the NS main line single track east of Greer on Hwy 290 to have two more sets of tracks added as a west bound entrance into the facility, thus triple tracking that section of rail. The frontage road and some older houses south of this section of track will be destroyed. As to the Spartanburg - Asheville W line, it is the most direct route to the Ohio Valley region and other points, but it remains to be seen if it will open, if ever. Hopefully, it will. All eyes and ears are on the alert.
Yes those of us who live around Asheville/Hendersonville would definately love the grade to be opened again. Its still probably a stretch, But I did see a caboose on the NS local to hendersonville on Wednesday. Didnt know what to make of that
I'm still unsure of the scope of this facility. From what I've been reading, this is more of a localized operation. The way it has been described, it's creating a more direct method of getting goods from the GSP area directly to the Port of Charleston, and vice versa. It will be an inland port, and not so much an intermodal facility like NS is building at Charlotte/Douglas International Airport.
The W-Line via Saluda is about 130 miles shorter than Columbia-Charlotte-Salisbury-Asheville, which is the next shortest route. When you consider the time it takes to split and reassemble a train to get over Saluda, I don't know if there will be a significant amount of time saved. When you add in the cost to get the line back into condition, plus operating costs . . . I'm having a hard time seeing NS ever doing it. And from what I've heard, the S-Line isn't exactly busy these days either, so there is no necessity to reopen Saluda for capacity reasons. However, if an intermodal can go over the hill in a couple of pulls, and you have a couple running daily straight to Cincinnati, there may be enough justification there.
I hope I'm wrong, but as long as it has been and the more I think about it, it seems unlikely. We will have to continue waiting for the next few months.
DUBCH87....Your thoughts sound reasonable.....From what you are posting, it doesn't sound very incouraging. Guess we can still hope. Thanks for info.
Quentin
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