Everybody who I ever heard comment on it call it nothing but trouble. Technology without a guide or training to use it. Etc. Anyone experienced with it care to comment?
I assume you're talking about ECP braking; with the electrical wire that applies the brakes on trailing cars electrically in addition to the standard air braking?
Well, it reduces the time it takes for the brakes to apply on the whole train, decreasing the stopping distance by quite a bit.
Plus, if one of the air hose connectors between cars gets blocked or turned, you won't have a runaway trains on your hands...the electrical system will apply the brakes behind the block. That would have prevented the Federal Express wreck that deposited a GG7 in the basement of Washington, DC, Union Station, among others...
The wreck factor really isn't a big point; mostly it's the part about the brakes applying faster and more evenly throughout the train.
Of course, I have no experience with either ECP brakes or regular air brakes... All this is just from reading about them... I have no doubt that they take some getting used to and may be a downright pain to use, but the question is do the improvements make it worth the trouble?
kolechovskiEverybody who I ever heard comment on it call it nothing but trouble. Technology without a guide or training to use it. Etc. Anyone experienced with it care to comment?
Well, I like it.
RWM
Railway Man kolechovski Everybody who I ever heard comment on it call it nothing but trouble. Technology without a guide or training to use it. Etc. Anyone experienced with it care to comment? Well, I like it. RWM
kolechovski Everybody who I ever heard comment on it call it nothing but trouble. Technology without a guide or training to use it. Etc. Anyone experienced with it care to comment?
That has to be the shortest post I've ever seen you make...
Brian (IA) http://blhanel.rrpicturearchives.net.
What trouble? I have never run a train with the brakes, but the follow comment from an engineer was reported in a Trains magazine article some years back. "Who makes this stuff? I want to buy some stock."
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Being able to apply brakes from the hindend of the end of the train or along the whole train simultaniously allows for longer trains to be operated and uniform, quicker, and safer braking.overall.
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The only negative being reported is on trainsets where the cars are uncoupled regularly for dumping. There are two problems, the first is corrosion of the electrical contacts, and the second is damage to the electrical connectors when the cars are being uncoupled. The uncoupling problem should be no surprise since all that the crew is doing is operating the cut lever. Just like with home electrical appliances when you unplug them by pulling on the wire, damage occurs. This was anticipated, but it appears the connectors weren't robust enough, or the designers under estimated the forces involved, or the corrosion is increasing the resistance to separation, or all of the above. The result is that over time there are problems getting the ECP signals through the trainline when the consist is being rebuilt at the powerplant following dumping.
It has a lot of operational benefits. The comments you have heard sound like a general apprehension of the unknown. I cannot imagine that it will be foisted on trainmen without giving them a guide or training to use it for two reasons:
1) The change to ECP brakes will not happen fast.
2) Railroad companies will not fail to recognize the need for training.
The biggest problem is the cost of the conversion and the logistics of the transitional period.
There is a lot of information available. Here is the first thing that popped up in a search. It’s a pretty good basic explanation:
http://www.tsd.org/ecpbrake.html
Here is a 78 page report: http://www.fra.dot.gov/downloads/safety/ecp_report_20060811.pdf
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
beaulieu The only negative being reported is on trainsets where the cars are uncoupled regularly for dumping. There are two problems, the first is corrosion of the electrical contacts, and the second is damage to the electrical connectors when the cars are being uncoupled. The uncoupling problem should be no surprise since all that the crew is doing is operating the cut lever. Just like with home electrical appliances when you unplug them by pulling on the wire, damage occurs. This was anticipated, but it appears the connectors weren't robust enough, or the designers under estimated the forces involved, or the corrosion is increasing the resistance to separation, or all of the above. The result is that over time there are problems getting the ECP signals through the trainline when the consist is being rebuilt at the powerplant following dumping. [emphasis added - PDN]
[emphasis added - PDN]
What - they didn't realize that putting sophisticated electronics out there in the railroad environment - in the middle of the night with knuckle-draggers whose idea of small tools are sledge hammers and cutting torches - would lead to this ? Sounds like "just another day in paradise" (!) to me.
Back in the day of streamliners, some of the trainsets - I think the Burlington's "Zephyr" fleet, but don't hold me to that - were equipped with electrically controlled brakes. Of course, they worked fine at first, but the perfomance deteriorated as the trainsets were broken up and taken apart for maintenance and non-equipped cars were substituted, maintenance and reliability issues arose, etc., and they were eventually discontinued.
Seriously, this is all part of the "beta-testing" process. There will be problems, and this will reveal them, and they will be fixed. This is too important of a step forward and provides too many benefits to be discarded because of the maintenance & personnel challenges.
- Paul North.
beaulieu The only negative being reported is on trainsets where the cars are uncoupled regularly for dumping. There are two problems, the first is corrosion of the electrical contacts, and the second is damage to the electrical connectors when the cars are being uncoupled. The uncoupling problem should be no surprise since all that the crew is doing is operating the cut lever. Just like with home electrical appliances when you unplug them by pulling on the wire, damage occurs. This was anticipated, but it appears the connectors weren't robust enough, or the designers under estimated the forces involved, or the corrosion is increasing the resistance to separation, or all of the above. The result is that over time there are problems getting the ECP signals through the trainline when the consist is being rebuilt at the powerplant following dumping.
I suppose ECP brakes might find early application to trainsets that are not uncoupled, but by the time it is fully implemented, the majority of trains will still be composed of loose cars. This raises some interesting questions that I had not thought about:
How are conventional air brake hoses handled in a rotary dumper?
With an ECP system, are cars equipped with conventional air hoses with glad hand couplings, and also with electrical cables with electric connectors?
If so, does the electrical connector need to be manually connected in addition to the act of manually coupling the hose connector?
If so, does the electrical connector part like the air hose couplings when the uncoupled cars are pulled apart?
Does anybody have a link to a detailed description of the electrical connectors currently being used for ECP brakes, or connectors being proposed as an improvement?
My recollection - which is sketchy at best - from a Trains article several years ago is that the ECP connection is mounted in something very similar to a brake hose - even with the same "glad-hand" connection that normally works so well. The actual electrical connection is something like a pair of metal or ceramic disks - one in each glad-hand, instead of where the opening for the air to move through would normally be - that mate against each other's faces when they are coupled together. The electrical signal is transmitted across the mating faces by induction - or something like that. It was thereby supposed to be far more immune to dirt, corrosion, etc. But I'm sure someone out there has better info (I hope).
jchnhtfd The only question I have about it -- and I'm sure the railroads have thought of this! -- is what happens if the system (by which I mean the whole system -- especially including signalling and dispatching) becomes set up with using the vastly improved stopping capabilities of trains with ECP brakes -- and something goes wrong with the electrics. I assume that the normal air brakes would still work (dump the air and the brakes apply, just as they always have) but if the engineer is expecting the better braking from the ECP, and it turns up missing, what happens? Or, if the ECP system senses (maybe through an upgraded FRED) that it has failed -- that the signal isn't getting through -- does it make a warning? Does it apply the brakes like 'old fashioned' air? Or... ? Otherwise, I can see a whole raft of advantages to it!
The only question I have about it -- and I'm sure the railroads have thought of this! -- is what happens if the system (by which I mean the whole system -- especially including signalling and dispatching) becomes set up with using the vastly improved stopping capabilities of trains with ECP brakes -- and something goes wrong with the electrics. I assume that the normal air brakes would still work (dump the air and the brakes apply, just as they always have) but if the engineer is expecting the better braking from the ECP, and it turns up missing, what happens? Or, if the ECP system senses (maybe through an upgraded FRED) that it has failed -- that the signal isn't getting through -- does it make a warning? Does it apply the brakes like 'old fashioned' air? Or... ? Otherwise, I can see a whole raft of advantages to it!
http://www.thefederalregister.com/d.p/2008-10-16-E8-22549
About 1/3 the way down this page is the section called, “III. ECP Brake Operations”
It details several system monitoring functions of the ECP brake system. Without comprehending the whole thing, I am guessing that it would be completely fail safe in the event of electrical failure or discontinuity of the signal line. Although, unless it has batteries on each car, it would seem to require a spring loaded feature on each car that can set the air if electrical power fails to hold it off.
It fail-safes to plain-old air braking. The ECP is an overlay system, not a stand-alone system, as you surmised.
You cannot respace signals or adjust block limits for ECP braking unless everything is equipped with ECP braking and the ECP system becomes stand-alone. However, if this never happens, it's not that big a deal. The touted benefits of tighter signal spacing (as well as the floating block potential touted as a benefit of PTC), are almost impossible to realize in practice on a Class 1-style railway unless one's railway just happens to be a 1,000-mile-long, 251-style, double-track railroad, with no work events, crew changes, maintenance events, or crossover events, and identical trainsets with identical power. In other words, a railroad that looks like the Washington Metro but much longer. Even if one could figure out a way to make every train ECP and always brake on an ECP-type curve, and figure out how to dispatch it to take advantage of the reduced block lengths -- which I am unconvinced is possible -- in practice the net time savings is unlikely to be economically significant versus other expenditures that could be made. ECP does have a substantial economic benefit for increasing train length, train tonnage, and fuel economy, and that's a pretty good thing. I never worry too much about picking the last apple on the tree when I can fill my bushel baskets with everything in easy reach.
The system used on the NS trains currently being tested are close to final standard. With these trains if you can't get the ECP brakes working you can't operate the train. If the ECP function fails while the train is moving the Engineer can and must safely stop the train by making a "Full Service" application of the train brakes, and of course he can always make an Emergency application if needed. Unlike previous tests he can not operate the train brakes like a normal train and make a lesser application to just slow the train except through the ECP system. The AAR and FRA wanted to test how the system would work once the old system was replaced, and NS agreed to do the testing. Previous tests involved trains mainly on BNSF that didn't have cars that were uncoupled on a near daily basis, and also they had the ability to run like a normal train if the ECP function failed (kind of like water wings for a kid learning to swim). Before giving final approval the FRA wanted a test operated under conditions like trains will eventually be operated, this is that test.
Question: Is AMTRAK's blended braking system a version of ECP or is it just air + dynamic braking?
Do the ECP brakes eliminate the reservoir being depleted after successive brake applications where there is not enough forward motion to lap them? If this were still an issue I'd be very surprised--perhaps I'm confusing ECP with electropneumatic brakes.
I'm fascinated how archaic the railroad air brake system is.
blue streak 1Question: Is AMTRAK's blended braking system a version of ECP or is it just air + dynamic braking?
Just air plus dynamic brakes controled by one control.
aegrotatioDo the ECP brakes eliminate the reservoir being depleted after successive brake applications where there is not enough forward motion to lap them? If this were still an issue I'd be very surprised--perhaps I'm confusing ECP with electropneumatic brakes.
Yes the ECP system eliminates the air reservoirs from becoming depleted. ECP is a modern version of the Electropneumatic brakes used in some passenger equipment in earlier years. The older equipment was not robust enough or reliable enough for freight service, and at least in the US not really good enough for passenger service either.
Is this what the new coal hoppers have that everyone's seeing but me? I can tell any difference in them...
When I think about it, a problem with electrical connectors almost seems predictable. I have often observed a tendency for electrical designers to underestimate mechanical requirements as they pertain to electrical design. They say the devil is in the details. I can see how the development of a practical, reliable, and durable connector that would withstand operating abuse, dirt, and weather conditions could be a monumental challenge.
It almost seems like they need a non-physical connector. At each end of each car, you would just have a little sealed housing that that contains a transmitter and receiver. Say it would be mounted on the top of the coupler, so when the couplers are mated, the housings would be only a few inches apart. The connection would then be wave-transmitted from one housing to the next. Not only would it prevent the physical wear and tear that would jeopardize plug-in connectors, it would also eliminate the need to manually plug them into each other.
Just a thought.
Paul_D_North_JrBack in the day of streamliners, some of the trainsets - I think the Burlington's "Zephyr" fleet, but don't hold me to that - were equipped with electrically controlled brakes. Of course, they worked fine at first, but the perfomance deteriorated as the trainsets were broken up and taken apart for maintenance and non-equipped cars were substituted, maintenance and reliability issues arose, etc., and they were eventually discontinued.
Paul, I think you are right on that. I also have the memory that when the NP re-equipped the North Coast Limited in the fifties, it was equipped with electro-pneumatic brakes. I never heard of any problems with the operation of the NCL cars together with the Empire Builder cars and the SP&S cars into Portland.
Johnny
I've had some very annoying problems with connector corrosion in relatively clean environments and can only image the problems in a railroad environment.
BucyrusIt almost seems like they need a non-physical connector. At each end of each car, you would just have a little sealed housing that that contains a transmitter and receiver. Say it would be mounted on the top of the coupler, so when the couplers are mated, the housings would be only a few inches apart. The connection would then be wave-transmitted from one housing to the next. Not only would it prevent the physical wear and tear that would jeopardize plug-in connectors, it would also eliminate the need to manually plug them into each other
I'm not sure if the air hoses have any screen or a wrap of wire in their internal structure, but if they did you could use the air line as a microwave waveguide that carries the brake control signals just like rails are used to carry control signals. Also you could mix ECP cars with non-ECP cars in this senario.
If it can make the rails safer while not taking over some humans job. I'm all for it. Assuming you are talking about ECP breaking I think that it sounds really cool as I read it in TRAINS MAG last year.
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Getting a signal to the valve is only part of the system. The valves are operated by electricity. I don't think there is any practical method of getting the required power to the valves other than via wire cable.
All this talk on ECP reminds me of 10+ years ago when ABS was being rammed up the collective backsides of the OTR industry. We had old timers that remembered the last time it had been done with the old 121 standards that killed more people than it saved and they were scared if you mated a non ABS trailer with a Truck that did have it that neither veichle would have brakes like the last itme. The fun will begin when you start to mix the 2 systems look for a FRA rule that requires ECP equipped cars at the front of the trains that way the engineer gets the benefit of the system. As to the connector why not use something like the pigtail the OTR trucking industry uses hell it holds up to anything we throw at it and can be repairted easy.
Are ther air hoses and elecrtic cables in between the cars seprate or are the air and electric hose's combined? I can't remember. I do know that there are electrical systems that trigger the break's. I just can't remember if those systms are combined or not.
edbenton All this talk on ECP reminds me of 10+ years ago when ABS was being rammed up the collective backsides of the OTR industry. We had old timers that remembered the last time it had been done with the old 121 standards that killed more people than it saved and they were scared if you mated a non ABS trailer with a Truck that did have it that neither veichle would have brakes like the last itme. The fun will begin when you start to mix the 2 systems look for a FRA rule that requires ECP equipped cars at the front of the trains that way the engineer gets the benefit of the system. As to the connector why not use something like the pigtail the OTR trucking industry uses hell it holds up to anything we throw at it and can be repairted easy.
The systems can't be mixed and that is one of the biggest problems for the roll-out. During the roll out it will be necessary to equip cars so they have both old and new systems. If even one car in a train is not equiped with the new braking system, the train will have to be operated with the old.
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