deepspire Carson City, NV (pop. 53,000) is 30 miles from the UP in Sparks. This would also make it the only state capitol in the lower 48 without railroad service, although they appear to have quite a railroad museum:http://www.flashearth.com/?lat=39.14831&lon=-119.768495&z=18.4&r=0&src=msa
Carson City, NV (pop. 53,000) is 30 miles from the UP in Sparks. This would also make it the only state capitol in the lower 48 without railroad service, although they appear to have quite a railroad museum:
Up until 1951 passenger trains served all 48 state capitals! For example it was possible to take a passenger train (or a series of connecting trains) from Tallahassee, Fla. to Helena, Mont. or from Pierre, So. Dak. to Augusta, Maine. When the Virginia & Truckee Railroad gave up its ghost at mid-century, that was the end of that.
Paul,
There aren't any industries in State College that could be serviced by a railroad anymore. The O. W. Houts store and lumber yard closed last year, the University's power plant has had its coal trucked in for years, and the cement plant moved to a spot on the Lemont railroad line about the time the Bellefonte Central ended. Also, The Bald Eagle branch does host NS coal trains that serve a power plant near Selinsgrove along with NBER trains.
South Dakota is going to have Amtrak service just as soon as the NARP proposal of a year ago is fully implemented! We're not exactly holding our breath until that time.
Even more farfetched, when the DM&E was beating the bushes for federal money to upgrade their line and extend it into the Power River territory, it was pointed out that the line would make a great way for tourists to get from the Twin Cities to the Black Hills. As our tourist industry is very much Interstate 90 orientated, that didn't go over very well either.
As an aside to the largest cities without passenger service--South Dakota enjoys the unique status of being the only one of the 48 (or 57 if Obama is right) states to not now have or ever have had AMTRAK service since it's inception in 1971.
Zack may have it with Virginia Beach, depending on the rules regarding suburbs. There is a NS line that goes into the heart of Virginia Beach, abruptly ending at Birdneck Rd., about a mile from the shore. East of this location has been converted to a recreation trail. The line is out of service, with a few crossings paved over (the signals remain), and its connection is severed in Norfolk, with removal of the diamonds:
http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&FORM=LMLTCP&cp=36.844907~-76.243371&style=h&lvl=19&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene=18520359&phx=0&phy=0&phscl=1&encType=1
The line could theoretically be reopened, but it appears to have fallen into quite a bit of disrepair, and without any businesses along the way to serve, it would seem very unlikely. In fact, as the aerial photos might be a couple years old, this line may already be completely removed.
jawbonejon mentioned "suburbs": Farther south in California, Thousand Oaks (pop. 125,000 or so), about 10 miles up the hill from Camarillo and about 10 miles over the mountain from Moorpark (both on UP's ex-SP Coast Line through Ventura County) has never had rail service and probably never will, because of terrain. And a new "exurb" has arisen in recent decades in southwestern Riverside County: both Temecula and adjacent Murrieta now have municipal populations in excess of 90,000, but they have grown so fast that I guess no one has quite decided what category their combined population (a quarter to a third of a million, including hinterland) fits, demographically speaking. I think the nearest rail service to either one of them is about 20 highway-miles away at Perris, on BNSF's former Hemet/San Jacinto Branch. Speaking of which, Rand McNally also postulates that the Hemet-San Jacinto area is now a distinct urb, with about 125-130 thousand of its own.
mentioned "suburbs": Farther south in California, Thousand Oaks (pop. 125,000 or so), about 10 miles up the hill from Camarillo and about 10 miles over the mountain from Moorpark (both on UP's ex-SP Coast Line through Ventura County) has never had rail service and probably never will, because of terrain. And a new "exurb" has arisen in recent decades in southwestern Riverside County: both Temecula and adjacent Murrieta now have municipal populations in excess of 90,000, but they have grown so fast that I guess no one has quite decided what category their combined population (a quarter to a third of a million, including hinterland) fits, demographically speaking. I think the nearest rail service to either one of them is about 20 highway-miles away at Perris, on BNSF's former Hemet/San Jacinto Branch. Speaking of which, Rand McNally also postulates that the Hemet-San Jacinto area is now a distinct urb, with about 125-130 thousand of its own.
Yeah, T.O. would likely be the largest city in California without rail service (or even a history of rail service, e.g. Temecula). The place had a bit lower population back when I lived there (1958 - 1965), less than 2,000 when we first moved there. Easiest way to get a rail line there would run it up the Santa Rosa valley and then over the Norwegian grade.
Also funny to see Carson City mentioned, lived there from 1965 - 1967. The old V&T right of way was still gloriously visible.
trainmanjDes Moines, IA does not have any main lines going through, but is served by a few railroads. Amtrak currently does not serve it, but the California Zephr does make a stop about an hour away.
Kind of depends on your point of view. The Iowa Interstate's main line goes through Des Moines. The Union Pacific's exCNW/RI north/south line is a main line.
Jeff
I interept the original question to really be specifying cities - such that Carson City would qualify - but not really places which are merely Census Designated Places or suburbs.
Really, with the "Census Designated Places" their borders are difficult to dicern (with a few exceptions such as Arlington, VA where Arlington refers to an entire county). An illustrative example would be Bethesda, Maryland - while unlike most of suburban areas, Bethesda does have an historic core and previously had freight rail service by the B&O Georgetown Branch line - while one could look at the approximate population of Bethesda (about 100,000) and say it might qualify, the fact that Bethesda has no fixed borders makes it very difficult to determine whether it still has freight service. I think that it probably does - the Red Line of the Metro runs through and starts running parellel to the ex-B&O now CSX Washington mainline starting at the Twin Brook station (maybe even White Flint, but I think its Twinbrook) - the route from Silver Spring to Twin Brook would place it passing through places with Bethesda addresses.
I think the same thing would happen with Columbia, Maryland - in any case, Columbia should not qualify - while Columbia may not have freight rail service, Columbia is officially considered to be a suburb of Baltimore and Baltimore definitely has freight rail service. I would eliminate any suburb of a place which has freight rail service - unless one can make a legitimate claim for being an urban area on their own (see below regarding Annapolis, Maryland)
Annapolis is more complex and probably should not be eliminated under the "suburb rule" I propose - while Annapolis and Anne Arundal County now qualify as a suburb of Baltimore, Annapolis qualifies as a component metropolitan area within a larger metropolitan area (similar to Newark, New Jersey (New York City) or Wilmington, Delaware (Philadelphia). Historically, Annapolis was not considered part of the Baltimore Metropolitan area - but a separate Metro area - that is why Interstate 97 has a two digit number. Thus, I think that it should qualify as a separate city (but Carson City is apparently larger and also has no freight rail service so it doesn't seem to be top). Obviously there are other suburbs which could qualify as urban areas on their own today (Rockville, Maryland would be an example) - but unless they historically were considered a separate Metropolitian area, I wouldn't count them (instead I'd look at the entire metro area they are located in).
On another note - does Virginia Beach, Virginia (oh I hate to even mention this because it should violate the "no suburbs" rule but because they declared the entire county the city and its now larger than Norfolk people don't even realize its a suburb anymore) have active freight rail service? If not, with 425,000+ people, Virginia Beach might be your technical answer (New York City has freight rail service in at least one of the boroughs so no dice there). I actually hope it does have rail service, because if it wasn't for Virginia's weird local government laws it would be seen as the suburb it is and I'd hate for it to get the crown based on a technicality
In-direct service is actually very common. There are several ways this can happen. For example if you take Bellevue Ne it has both the BNSF and UP roads going through the town. BNSF has no sidings, so it can't serve any customers directly. The UP does have sidings and several business which are served by a rabbit out of Council bluffs. To UP and and all of those business it is South Omaha not Bellevue. If you go to the UP station list you will not find a Bellevue NE on the station list.
BNSF serves South Omaha, in fact that is where there main yard is located. The also can serve the same customers physically located in Bellevue via the UP in switch service.
Bellevue NE is the 3rd largest city in NE
If Carson City NV is the present candidate, several California cities on the old Northwestern Pacific now qualify. San Rafael, (57,000) Novato (54,000) and Petaluma (57,000) definitly make the list. SP served all with the old NWP; when SP abandoned the line, a new company Northwestern Pacific was formed to take it over. Several attempts at operation produced serial bankruptcies. Line has been out of service for several years after FRA declared it unsafe. New bond issue passed in November to create Sonoma Marin rail service on the line; State funds are being used to rehab the portion south of Willits to reconnect with California Northern and thereby with UP. As the three cities above grew dramatically as suburban communities in the past twenty years, freight customers dwindled. THe old NWP existed primarily to carry lumber out of Northern California, but the spotted own and the Sierra Club pretty much killed that business along with the notoriously difficult roadbed through the Eel River Canyon.
Carson City (55,200 <2004 pop. est.>) still beats Annapolis (36,400 <2006 pop. est.>), both in population and distance from active rail lines. Carson City is 30 miles from an active line, while the closest line near Annapolis would be about 11 miles away, in Bowie. However, that does make two state capitols in the lower 48 with no rail service.
I found this interesting. Here's a list of all the 601 cities in the U.S. with a population over 50,000, according to the 2000 census. http://www.demographia.com/db-2000city50kr.htm
dn1869Allow me to clarify my question is this way: What is the largest urban area in the lower 48 States that has no common carrier service provided within 25 miles? Does this make my question more specific?
Allow me to clarify my question is this way: What is the largest urban area in the lower 48 States that has no common carrier service provided within 25 miles? Does this make my question more specific?
Granted, just considering core cities, Eureka combined with nearby Arcata would only count something more than 40,000 heads, but I believe there are quite a few folks living in the immediate hinterlands. I gather that timber (especially redwood) was the principal local industry up into the 1970's, and there may still be some commercial ocean fishing thereabouts. (I don't really want to get sidetracked into a big eco-political argument at this point.) But apparently there is no longer sufficient freight business up that way to justify the enormous, recurring costs of maintaining a right-of-way through the flood-prone Eel River canyon.
I mentioned "suburbs": Farther south in California, Thousand Oaks (pop. 125,000 or so), about 10 miles up the hill from Camarillo and about 10 miles over the mountain from Moorpark (both on UP's ex-SP Coast Line through Ventura County) has never had rail service and probably never will, because of terrain. And a new "exurb" has arisen in recent decades in southwestern Riverside County: both Temecula and adjacent Murrieta now have municipal populations in excess of 90,000, but they have grown so fast that I guess no one has quite decided what category their combined population (a quarter to a third of a million, including hinterland) fits, demographically speaking. I think the nearest rail service to either one of them is about 20 highway-miles away at Perris, on BNSF's former Hemet/San Jacinto Branch. Speaking of which, Rand McNally also postulates that the Hemet-San Jacinto area is now a distinct urb, with about 125-130 thousand of its own.
The thing is, growth in the last four areas I've mentioned (in Ventura and Riverside Counties) has accompanied the decline of the agricultural industries that used to justify rail freight service on (for instance) the old Santa Fe's San Jacinto and Elsinore branches. Where any new industry has arisen to replace them, they are of the "light" variety. (Vineyards are big right now in the vicinity of Temecula, but I'm not sure they constitute an exception.) Since the 1960s, most of the former fields and orchards have been subdivided for long-distance commuters (on the new Interstates) and retirees. The same is true in the Lancaster-Palmdale and Victorville-Hesperia districts of the high deserts north of the LA-SBDO-RIV megalopolis, except that Lancaster and Victorville have remained railroad towns to some extent.
LNER4472As for another entry, here's a possibility: Columbia, Maryland is officially an unincorporated metropolitan area between Baltimore and Washington, DC with a census population of 97,200. The only rail service is the stub end of a CSX industrial park branch that passes under I-95 in the southeastern corner of the city, and I believe nothing has moved over that branch into "Columbia" proper in several years--trees are growing up through the line in several spots. Anyone care to try and beat that?
Anyone care to try and beat that?
Columbia doesnt quite qualify IMO..
because there are active rail lines right along its edges..within a mile or two of the town borders to the south east and north east..and there is that spur running into town..
and..there is a commuter rail station (MARC) at Dorsey.. which is also 2 miles from Columbia...there are probably lots of people in Columbia who take commuter rail to and from Columbia every day..which sort of makes it "served by rail"..
Annapolis however..that could be the winner!
anyone know how far away active rails are from Annapolis proper?
Scot
Here is one..
The city of Norwich, New York.
Once an actual "Railroad town"..served by two systems, the DL&W and the O&W.
The O&W had a major yard and shop facilty right in Norwich...big roundhouse, big shop buildings..
The O&W tracks have been gone for 50 years now, but the DL&W line survived, going into EL, then Conrail, then Susquehanna..Today it is known as the Susquehanna's "Utica Branch"..running between Binghamton and Utica, NY.
A flood took out much of the line in 2006..and NYSW will likely abandon it soon. trains currently are not running on the line, although in theory they still could.
But if/when the rails are removed, Norwich, population 7,000, will have NO service of any kind..and the nearest active rail will be 20 miles away
Annapolis, Md. MAY qualify as the largest state capital with no rails of any kind.
As another potential nomination for the original question, I just took a high-speed flip through my 2003 World Almanac's list of 100 largest US cities, and the only one on that list that jumps out as having no rail service of any kind is the rather obvious no-brainer of Honolulu, Hawaii.
As for another entry, here's a possibility: Columbia, Maryland is officially an unincorporated metropolitan area between Baltimore and Washington, DC with a census population of 97,200. The only rail service is the stub end of a CSX industrial park branch that passes under I-95 in the southeastern corner of the city, and I believe nothing has moved over that branch into "Columbia" proper in several years--trees are growing up through the line in several spots.
Des Moines has the former Rock Island "Spine Line" now owned by the UP and very much a mainline.
Another city is Annapolis, MD also a state capital and without and rail service. I was surprised that it has only about 37,000 people.
Proving that stupid location and public policy transportation decisions are not confined to the modern ages, State College, Pennsylvania - the home of the Pennsylvania State University, better known as Penn State or PSU, the "Nittany Lions" - was located at a town that was and is a long ways from anywhere significant in the rail world - at least about 25 miles from the PRR's main line through Tyrone. The average population of State College is about 38,000, plus about 40,000 students. The SMSA (= Standard Metropolitan Statistical Area) consists of all of surrounding Centre County, which is about 140,000. But with 80,000 or so fans on Penn State home football weekends, State College becomes the 3rd largest city in Pennsylvania, for a few hours at least.
But State College hasn't had direct rail service for many years. It used to be near the end of the Bellefonte Central Railroad, which ran from its namesake town southwest through State College to end just beyond at University Park. That line was only a branch from a branch, and was abandoned many years ago. Although the tail end of a former PRR branch runs just to the northeast of State College - another branch from Bellefonte to the southeast, and then to the southwest - that line ends at Lemont. Although Lemont is only about 3 miles northeast of State College "as the crow eagle (?) flies", it seems a long ways away from the standpoint of topography. Even at Bellefonte, it still had a few miles to go to Milesburg and the PRR's Tyrone - Lock Haven "Bald Eagle" branch. Also, that line was recently operated mainly by the Bellefonte Historical Railroad, and maybe occasionally by the underlying shortline operator - Nittany & Bald Eagle (NBER) - that runs the line for SEDA-COG, which took over ownership after ConRail spun off this network of branch lines. This is all pretty complicated to explain and bunderstand without a map and seeing it in person, but in summary, State College always was and still is pretty isolated from the rest of the rail network.
- Paul North.
As for Amtrak, In Ohio Columbus,the 15th largest city in the U.S with almost 800,000 people in the city and 1,800,000 in the metro area And Dayton with over 150,000 in the city and about 1,500,000 in the metro area are both large cities without Amtrak that I can name of the top of my head. I looked at some maps and cannot really find anymajor cities without atleast freight rail service.
I always heard that the largest city/metro area in the US with no rail service at all was Farmington, New Mexico. (Population around 44,000).
It lost its rail service when the Rio Grande abandoned its narrow guage circa 1968.
Thanks for the responses. I agree. There is no real answer to my question. If I had asked what is the largest cities without intercity rail passenger service, then the answer is is straightforward: Las Vegas and Phoenix.
I have a second question that has bugged for many years. Only to answer this question I need to connect with someone who has a detailed knowledge of the former Dover-Foxcroft branch of the Maine Central Railroad. Anyone out there?
Phoenix is thriving - ask Diningcar. (the old SP passenger main is severed, but UP is still there and the ATSF Peavine thrives...not sure how much Arizona & California brings in at Mathie anymore that eventually gets pulled into town)
Does the Vernal, UTAH project fit into this conversation somewhere? (never had a railroad) or the Marysville, UT [ Six County] project fit in?
I would say that if a railroad, be it class 1, short line or what have you, can spot a car on a spur or other track for unloading, that would be DIRECT service. Intermodal transloaded at another city would be indirect.
Interesting question, but I don't have the answer.
Doug
May your flanges always stay BETWEEN the rails
Please further define direct...main line, secondary line, branch line, etc., float barge count? Intermodal drag? If so, NYC's Manhatten Island or Borough of Manhatten, does not have direct freight service!
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Let me clarify the question with an example: Keene, NH was once very well served by the Boston and Maine, but no longer. It is a small city with no direct freight service left.
But seriously, I suspect that you'd have to get pretty far down in size to find an urban center that doesn't have rail service. I suspect that the answer will be a suburban community. Communities near me without any rail service include Oak Brook and Darien.
Another possibility would be some of the fast-growing cities in Arizona, for whom railroads (primarily in the form of transit systems) will have to be re-invented.
One thing that should be stipulated: are we talking about cities that have industries requiring rail service, or merely cities through which a freight line passes?
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
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