Early Alco road switchers ran long end first??

[Kozzie]

I've seen photos (both model trains and "12 inches to the foot scale") of the early RS series of Alco switchers (RS-1, RS-2 etc) pulling a freight with the long end first, and some shots with the short end first.

What was the preferred practice?

Maybe Jim (jhhtrainsplanes) and other Alco gurus can help here...

Cheers [:D]

Kozzie

[M636C]

Kozzie,

As far as I know, most Alco Road Switchers up to the RS-3 (and some units well after that) were set up with the control stand facing along the long hood. This was indicated by the letter "F" for front usually on the frame side next to the steps, at the long end. If the controls were set up the other way, the "F" was painted at the other (short hood) end. This would show up in builder's photos, if there is any question. With the introduction of low noses, most units were set up with the short hood at the front.

This didn't mean that the locomotive didn't run short hood first, since the driver could sit facing inward, and look towards the short hood while keeping his right hand on the control stand.

The NSW RSC-3s built at Montreal ("40 class") had the control stands set up like this, but had the brake stand arranged to face the short hood on the same side, and these units were fitted with pilots at the short hood end only. This meant the driver always faced inward, and worked the controls with his right hand and the brakes with his left. Fortunately he was then on the left side of the loco which was the correct side for NSW signals, when the short hood was leading. I have (once) seen a fast passenger train run with one of these with the long hood leading. The fireman must have been calling the signals, because there was no way the driver could see them.

I think many GP7s and SD7s and some GP9s and SD9s were set up with the long hood as lead also, as well as Baldwins and Fairbanks Morse units.

Southern and Norfolk and Western continued this practice and kept high noses up until the GP50 and SD50 era, when they gave up just before becoming NS. This was said to give better protection for crew in case of grade crossing accidents.

Peter

[Anonymous]

Yes Peter is right. [:)]

It was normal during the early days for diesel engines to run long hood forward. As time passed they changed ends. I remember reading a story about the L & N getting some Alcos and they were actually short hood forward but noone realized this and had them turned long hood forward. The switch crew that day needed an extra person to tell the engineer what to do as he couldn't see the hand signals.

The Alco RS 1, 2, and 3s were some of the best looking locos ever made in my opinion. They were simply "Classic". There were 2 RS3 s for sale recently and both sold fairly quick. Just goes to show that a 50 year old unit can STILL do the job it was intended to do. Let's see someone ba***HAT. Show me a 50 year old "__" unit still going, and I don't mean EMD either. [}:)] [;)] [:)]

[Kozzie]

Hey Pete! "...I have (once) seen a fast passenger train run with one of these with the long hood leading." sounds very different! Was it a main line service?
Sure gives a lot of leeway when running models, and frustrating those over-critical "rivet counters" ha ha[:D]

Was the NSW Class 40 based on the Alcos, even though built in Montreal?

Kozzie

[Kozzie]

Thanks Jim - I was hoping one of the Alco gurus would comment.

At one of our Model RR shows, a passerby (obviously a rude rivet counter) looking at a particular exhibition layout got quite "het up" about an Alco RS-1 running short nose first - good grief! What a catastrophe! Is that all he had to worry about that day?

You mentioned that as time passed, they changed ends. Did that mean major changes to the control stand?

Kozzie

[UPTRAIN]

I had a NS GP50 with a high nose a couple weeks ago and had to switch with it long hood forward...thank God I work for UP!!!!!!!!!!

[Kozzie]

Hey UPTRAIN!

I guess that's the beauty of the older Alco road switchers? One could see along the top of the hood, not just along the sides?

Kozzie[8D]

[Anonymous]

Kozzie--

I too remember them running long hood forward, at least on the Rock, Santa Fe, Katy and Cotton Belt (where they pulled passenger trains), which is where I saw them the most, and the throttle stands were set up that way on almost all of them. But remember, the guys running them in those days had just gotten off steamers (some weren't even off yet!) and they were used to looking down that big long boiler (even on a mogul or light mike). That relatively low and narrow (by steam standards) long hood probably looked pretty good to them. And there was the collision safety issue as well--much better long hood first, but played against the overall visibility issue as we got more and more diesels with better fields of view.

Seen any loose cabeese lately?

I really enjoy your and Peter's discussions about things in Oz. A fascinating place-would love to see it firsthand sometime. The Australians I have met up here have, to a one, been some of the most congenial people I have ever met--don't you guys have any old grouches at all down there????

[Kozzie]

Hi drephpe. [8D]

Re. your comment: "...on the Rock, Santa Fe, Katy and Cotton Belt (where they pulled passenger trains), ....." Passenger trains behind RS1 and RS2 Alcos was something I wouldn't have expected. I guess they were short line services?

That makes for another interesting spin for the layout! he he

Yes, we have plenty of grouches down here. You've only got to drive on the road! Groan!

Hopefully, the grouches won't join the Trains Forum.

Sadly, no loose Cabeese...or even penned up ones ha ha[(-D]

But I sure run them on my layout! I don't worry about them being out of date...I like to see them on the end of a train - even if it's just in my garage! [:(]

[M636C]

The NSW locomotives were built in Montreal because Australia could buy things from Canada without having to pay in US dollars. There was a dark rumour that the first two were built at Schenectady and shipped up to Montreal, to show them what the special cut down cab had to look like. But I'm sure Montreal didn't need that. Montreal was a subsidiary of Alco until 1968, when Alco closed down.

The cut down cab on the Australian units didn't include the hood top windows. So it made long end leading operation just a bit more difficult. It wasn't much lower, but it sloped in at the sides like the Military RSD-1 cabs.

The train I saw with the RSC-3 running long hood leading was the Northbound "North Coast Daylight Express" at Kempsey, NSW while I was spending some time on a farm there belonging to the family of one of my school friends, in 1964. I didn't get a photo, but my friend did. We caught the return of that train back home several days later.

During the weekend before last, we had a number of special trains, one of which was an empty transformer wagon being transferred. It was limited to 40km/h so it was amazing just how many photos you could get of it!

But it had one of the few remaining "Freight Brake Vans", our equivalent of a caboose, trailing and I took a couple of shots of it, even though it often appears at the front of steam hauled trains as a crew car.

I feel sure I'm becoming old, bitter and twisted. But not that quickly, I hope!

Peter

[Kozzie]

Peter - I'm a bit slow today - being Monday and all...
....but did the RSC-3 look smiliar to the later high hood Alco road switchers e.g. RS-10, RS-17 etc, rather than the earlier RS1,2 3 & 4s with the lower overall hood height?

Dave
(Kozzie)

[M636C]

Dave,

The "C" was just a truck modification, a three axle truck with centre idler axle, in place of the AAR Type B truck. So above the frame, an RSC-3 was just an RS-3. There were RSC-2s as well, but I don't think there were any RSC-1s (but I'm ready to be corrected on that).

More changes were needed for the three motor truck, so the RSD-4 was the equivalent of the RS-3 with six motors. It was found that a bigger generator would be good with six motors, so they built the RSD-5. There were no RS-4 or RS-5 built (ie no equivalent models with four axles and four motors).

The higher hood started with the RS-10 and RS-11. The six motor equivalent of the RS-11 was the RSD-12.

So the NSW units looked like the older units, although the cab was a different profile.

Peter

[CShaveRR]

The C&O had a pair of RS3s that were set up to operate short hood first. They seem to be an exception.

[PNWRMNM]

While manufacturers doubtless has their "standard" layout, which end ran first was a railroad option. In Pacific Northwest for example, GN ran alcos and all GP and SD up to GP-30 long hood front for grade crossing protection. NP ran their GP short hood first.

Mac

[M636C]

Dave,

We didn't really fini***he "RS-2 and 3 in passenger service" part of your question. RS-2 and RS-3 units were purchased new for suburban service by Rock Island and Boston and Maine, and were used by the Milwaukee Road and C&NW for branch line services connecting to "Hiawathas" and "400s". These units had steam heating boilers in the short hoods. Many other roads used them in pssenger service of one kind or another. They also used RSC-2 units for branch line passenger trains on light track. The RS types were not used much on prestige trains, but on most others, whether main or branch line.

Peter

[daveklepper]

On the B&M, 1952-1953, an RS2 (I thought it was an RS3) occasionally substituted for GP7's 1567 and 1568 that had the normal assignment of working the 4pm Boston - Portsmouth, NH passenger and returned on the Portsmouth - Summerville Yard freight. None of these locomotives were turned as Portsmouth, so if we started from Boston long-end first we came back short-end first. Where did RS3's pull prestige trains? Before and after the ex-SF Baldwin Sharks, 2 RS3s handled both the Laurentian (now Amtrak's Adarondak) and the overnight Grand Central - Montreal Montreal Limited that competed with the Montrealer/Washingtonian. Again, on the D&H, locomotives were often not turned and could be seen long-end or short-end first. Also, let us not forget the tremendous contribution Alco road-switchers made in Iran during WWII. There was a TRAINS article on that some time ago, and I also remember in a very old issue of Railroad Magazine "Caboose Chaplain." Dave Klepper

[jchnhtfd]

QUOTE: Originally posted by M636C

Dave,

We didn't really fini***he "RS-2 and 3 in passenger service" part of your question. RS-2 and RS-3 units were purchased new for suburban service by Rock Island and Boston and Maine, and were used by the Milwaukee Road and C&NW for branch line services connecting to "Hiawathas" and "400s". These units had steam heating boilers in the short hoods. Many other roads used them in pssenger service of one kind or another. They also used RSC-2 units for branch line passenger trains on light track. The RS types were not used much on prestige trains, but on most others, whether main or branch line.

Peter

We -- Central Vermont -- had RS-3s, RS-11s and GP-7s with steam generators in the short hood, and a nuisance they were, too. We used them on prestige passenger service (for instance, the Ambassador) for quite a while. The CV always ran long hood first, right up to the spin-off. The steam generator equipped GP-7s were easy to spot -- torpedo boat style air tanks and no dynamics.

[espeefoamer]

QUOTE: Originally posted by M636C

Dave,

The "C" was just a truck modification, a three axle truck with centre idler axle, in place of the AAR Type B truck. So above the frame, an RSC-3 was just an RS-3. There were RSC-2s as well, but I don't think there were any RSC-1s (but I'm ready to be corrected on that).

More changes were needed for the three motor truck, so the RSD-4 was the equivalent of the RS-3 with six motors. It was found that a bigger generator would be good with six motors, so they built the RSD-5. There were no RS-4 or RS-5 built (ie no equivalent models with four axles and four motors).

The higher hood started with the RS-10 and RS-11. The six motor equivalent of the RS-11 was the RSD-12.

So the NSW units looked like the older units, although the cab was a different profile.

Peter

There were MRS1s.These had 6 wheel trucks.Alco built them during WW2 for use overseas.Most of these were owned by the Army. I don't know if the center axle was powered or not .Maybe someone can help on that point.

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by drephpe

But remember, the guys running them in those days had just gotten off steamers (some weren't even off yet!) and they were used to looking down that big long boiler (even on a mogul or light mike). That relatively low and narrow (by steam standards) long hood probably looked pretty good to them.

And with the Alcos smoking so much already it was a natural assumption that it was an enclosed steam locomotive and the stack needed to go forward........

[Anonymous]

Why did they have so much smoke?

DOGGY

[kenneo]

Doggy --- we already had quite a thread on that (encased in another thread about GE's and EMD's that went all over the locomotive picture - turbo's, fuel use, prime mover specs and id's, yada yada), but the simple answer was the type of turbo charger they used. It wouldn't advance with the fuel use but always followed it, so there was not enough air to fully combust the fuel.

[M636C]

Doggy,

In two words: "Turbocharger Lag". When the 244 engine was introduced it was, by a long way, the most highly rated four stroke diesel ever built to that date. The "boost", the increase in pressure in the cylinders resulting from the air being compressed by the turbocharger, was more than double that usual at the time. To take advantage of the higher pressure and the extra oxygen in the combustion chamber in the cylinder, more fuel was injected.

This was fine while you were running at a given notch, seven or eight, when the turbo was running, but when you first notched up, the fuel being injected inceased first, but the turbo was still trying to "Spool up" to speed. There was more fuel than there was air to burn it, and it came out unburned as thick black smoke.

It was a problem that mainly occured during acceleration of the diesel engine.

Engine designs got better, but Alcos and GEs still suffer from this problem, although modern electronic fuel injection systems can reduce it to an acceptable level.

The German MTU 1163 engines in the Australian Navy's ANZAC class Frigates still do this when manouvring to berth (although some crews prefer to manouvre with the gas turbine, which burns about four times the fuel but does it cleanly).

Peter

[Anonymous]

Kozzie--

RE: Cotton Belt Pax. No, they were RS-3's on a lot of their line haul trains. By that time, there wasn't much to their service. Usually 3-4 head end and a couple of coaches made it down to Dallas from St. Louis, after they had pulled out of Ft Worth and pulled the diner-loungesand sleepers off in the early 1950's. They had the fastest line to Memphis but one of the slowest to St. Louis because they went up the east side of the Mississippi River from Arkansas thru East St. Louis andthen back across. So not much business by that time. The only other pax units they had was a couple of Daylight PA's and the only FP7 ever painted Daylight (all modified with a silver roof).

[Kozzie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by drephpe

Kozzie--

RE: Cotton Belt Pax. No, they were RS-3's on a lot of their line haul trains. By that time, there wasn't much to their service. Usually 3-4 head end and a couple of coaches made it down to Dallas from St. Louis, after they had pulled out of Ft Worth and pulled the diner-loungesand sleepers off in the early 1950's. They had the fastest line to Memphis but one of the slowest to St. Louis because they went up the east side of the Mississippi River from Arkansas thru East St. Louis andthen back across. So not much business by that time. The only other pax units they had was a couple of Daylight PA's and the only FP7 ever painted Daylight (all modified with a silver roof).

Hi drephpe

At the risk of being a dumb question...but....When you say "..3-4 head end" you mean freight cars? That makes it quite an interesting mixed train to run on a smaller layout like mine at home. Plenty of "mucking around" switching here and switching there...[:D]

Kozzie [;)]

[M636C]

Head End cars were usually parcels or mail. They were sometimes box cars (if they had trucks that allowed them to run at passenger speeds) but mostly baggage cars with an occasional travelling post office. Amtrak's current "Material Handling Cars" are quite typical. They were usually railroad owned, but some cars were lettered for the "Railway Express Agency", effectively a parcels service (like UPS today). There were some trains that were mainly run for mail and parcels, but had a coach attached for any passengers on offer.

I remember seeing the "Westlander" at Ipswich in 1993 with twelve refrigerator cars and about six passenger cars, and thinking "just like an American train".

Peter

[Kozzie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by M636C

Head End cars were usually parcels or mail. They were sometimes box cars (if they had trucks that allowed them to run at passenger speeds) but mostly baggage cars with an occasional travelling post office. Amtrak's current "Material Handling Cars" are quite typical. They were usually railroad owned, but some cars were lettered for the "Railway Express Agency", effectively a parcels service (like UPS today). There were some trains that were mainly run for mail and parcels, but had a coach attached for any passengers on offer.

I remember seeing the "Westlander" at Ipswich in 1993 with twelve refrigerator cars and about six passenger cars, and thinking "just like an American train".

Peter

Hey Peter [:)]

I've never taken the Westlander trip, but I've noticed it leaves Brisbane's Roma Street Station in the early evening, and climbs the Great Dividing Range to Toowoomba in the dark! All that interesting curves and tunnels but in darkness...It's not scheduled to reach Dalby till Midnight! (next major town, and not that far away) [:(]
Good grief! [:0]

I realise the climb to Toowoomba is a very old, slow speed alignment, but after Toowomba, one would think it could 'get a move on' across the Darling Downs.

Kozzie[;)]

[Anonymous]

Kozzie--

No, in the Cotton Belt case usually baggage cars carrying bulk mail (storage mail), and an RPO/bag combination. Some trains also included box cars and reefers equipped with steam lines (Railway Express had quite a fleet, and so did some of the individual railroads). Toward the end, you might also see boxcars etc on the rear, along with TOFC.

[Kozzie]

Hey drephpe and Peter [:)]

So an Alco RS-1 (for example) with a few boxcars, than a few coaches wouldn't be an unreasonable sight on a layout.... Another variety of train to run! [:D]

Dave

[Anonymous]

Kozzie--

Not an unusual sight at all, mate, provided they are express boxcars (if they're on the front) and the Alco (preferably an RS2 or 3) has a steam generator (unless it's summer and the cars have other than steam ejector A/C). You probably ought to hang at least 1 bag and probably an RPO, or perhaps use an RPO/bag combine, and REX box or two with maybe some RR express boxes (generally somewhat different paint and high-speed trucks--something that would lend an interesting air just by itself). Or (1) put the boxcars on the back, possibly with a caboose, OR (2) bite the bullet, put mixed freight on the front, hang an old coach or combine on the rear, and call it a mixed train. FYI the T&NO (SP eastern lines) ran a Dallas-Beaumont mixed every night up through the early 50's, using a 60' combine and a really neat 40' (YES, 40'!) Harriman RPO. The cars used to be available in brass (probably still are on the used market), and I think MR had drawings about 40-50 years ago if you have access to some old ones.

My recollection (help me out, NJ & NY types) is the NYSW (Susquehanna--"Suzy Q") up in NJ/NY ran RS1's on some of their commuter trains.

And Erie certainly used RS's on theirs.

I think if you ask around here, you'll find lots of guys who recall RS's on passenger trains all over the US, usually secondary runs or at the end of service.

You can find articles on the express box cars. Here are some examples: CRIP, ATSF, some MKT and probably lots of others were green. Some had Allied full cushion trucks, at least initially. PRR had a whole fleet of converted X29's (red). The rest of Katy's were Sloan Yellow like the others except they had "Railway Express Agency Storage Mail" stenciled below "The Katy Serves the Southwest". MP/T&P painted theirs Eagle scheme blue and gray etc.. Also consider a converted troop sleeper or two, painted green--lots of roads had various versions including CB&Q/C&S/FW&D--I understand Walthers or somebody now has some credible plastic kits of various mutations of ex-troop sleeper baggage/express cars.

Or go native! Try the NdeM--anything goes, particularly on a mixed! Including a caboza on the rear behind the coche (segunda, of course), and pigs, chicken, sheep, etc.

In thinking about it, what you're suggesting would not only be unusual, but would be a short train generally true to prototype, and it could switch more if it were a mixed.

Let us know how it turns out.[8D][C):-)]

[M636C]

drephpe,

You should note that you are addressing a real Queenslander in Kozzie. The QR had the ultimate in composite vehicles, the class KKB van. This was a Brake Van, the equivalent of a caboose, but it had a short compartment at one end for the "guard" as he was known. In the middle was a compartment (without a roof) for ten cattle, and at the far end a compartment for drovers (cowboys in American) accompanying the cattle. During my short period with the QR, I remember checking out one of these that had had its incandescent electric light (bulbs) replaced by fluorescent tubes with a transistorised inverter to provide the high frequency AC current required.

I was always a southerner who was just visiting, as far as the locals are concerned. QR still runs cattle trains, often hauled by 4000HP electric locomotives working from 25kV overhead lines.

But to get a bit closer to the topic, pretty much anything does go. In "Streamliner Memories", there is a photo of a side door "Flexi-Van" painted in IC brown and orange performing head end duties on that system. For those who don't remember the 1950s, a "Flexi-Van" was like a Road Railer, but it dropped its wheels and was loaded onto a flatcar via a central turntable. The end result looked like a container on a flatcar, but shipping companies hadn't thought of that yet.

We had Flexi-Vans in Australia, but none had side doors! The vans eventually fell apart, and here the flat cars just became container flats.

For current modellers, Amtrak have run RoadRailers on their trains, as well as the more common "Material Handling Cars".

Peter