QUOTE: Originally posted by espeefoamer Originally posted by Big_Boy_4005 You Aussies have some very interesting geography, history, and trains. The railroads sound like a bit of a mess however. We Americans still can't figure out how you manage to keep them on the track, when everything is upside down.[D)][(-D][(-D][(-D][swg] They use Lionel's Magne-Traction.Each wheelset has a strong magnet holding it to the tracks![;)][:D] [/quote Darn it! [:0] Our secret is out! [;)] Yes Forum crew, magnets have really solved our Downunder problem...except...the blood still keeps rushing to the head! [:D] Plays havoc with train crew! [(-D][(-D][(-D]hmmmm...needs more thought.... Kozzie Reply espeefoamer Member sinceNovember 2003 From: West Coast 4,122 posts Posted by espeefoamer on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 2:48 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Big_Boy_4005 You Aussies have some very interesting geography, history, and trains. The railroads sound like a bit of a mess however. We Americans still can't figure out how you manage to keep them on the track, when everything is upside down.[D)][(-D][(-D][(-D][swg] They use Lionel's Magne-Traction.Each wheelset has a strong magnet holding it to the tracks![;)][:D] Ride Amtrak. Cats Rule, Dogs Drool. Reply CSSHEGEWISCH Member sinceMarch 2016 From: Burbank IL (near Clearing) 13,540 posts Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 1:00 PM One thing that we all seem to forget is that re-gauging involves a lot more than just the track. All of the rolling stock (locomotives and cars) also needs to be re-gauged and if you go from narrow gauge to standard gauge, clearances may also need to be adjusted. This may explain why QR probably won't re-gauge and why Australia Western may go to selected dual gauge. Since India has both meter gauge and broad (5'3") gauge, it would be interesting to find out how their re-gauging to broad gauge is being accomplished. The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul Reply Kozzie Member sinceJanuary 2003 From: Australia 786 posts Posted by Kozzie on Monday, April 12, 2004 11:28 PM Hey CSSHEGEWISCH, I think you've summed it up. Queensland certainly has an extensive network. To date, according to the Queensland Rail web site, length of track adds up to 9,500 km (6,000 miles) . Any previous opportunities to convert to standard gauge, as outlined by Peter, have well and truly slipped past. Even if the "Inland rail Expressway" goes through, I can't see QR then going through a very very large gauge changeover system-wide. QR is under a lot of public pressure to increase/improve the commuter service from coastal population centres near Brisbane called The Gold Coast and The Sunshine Coast, which see a lot of commuters using these lines to and from the capital city Brisbane. Travellers have nicknamed some of the overcrowded Gold Coast services "The Bombay Express"...not a good image at all....Last State Government election saw the promise of A$400 million to be pumped into QR - time will tell.... Cheers Kozzie Kozzie Reply M636C Member sinceJanuary 2002 4,612 posts Posted by M636C on Friday, April 9, 2004 8:29 PM CSSHEGEWISCH, In fact, Queensland has effectively not had its network affected by standard gauge, except for an end-on connection in Brisbane to the South. Western Australia has a standard gauge connection across the whole state, and two branches to the north and south from Kalgoorlie have been converted to standard, but the rest of the network remains 3'6". Victoria has standard gauge to the north and to the west, and like Western Australia a couple of branches that would have been isolated have been converted. The complication in Victoria is that there is a very extensive electrified suburban commuter system that remains 5'3", and there are "high speed" extensions to this network being constructed to the larger provincial cities, Geelong, Ballarat and Bendigo, which are existing tracks being extensively upgraded with concrete ties and heavier rail, but, because they are for passenger traffic, are remaining broad gauge. Simultaneously, plans are being made to convert more of the freight network to standard gauge. Clearly there is a problem here, because the inner part of the freight network was the part of the system that has just been set in concrete (literally) as broad gauge. In some cases there are alternative routes that could be converted to standard gauge, but in others there are no alternative routes. The same difficulty arises in Adelaide (South Australia) and Perth (Western Australia) where broad (SA) or narrow (WA) gauge commuter lines follow the same routes as the standard gauge freight lines. In SA, they use parallel tracks, in WA (where the greater gauge difference makes it easier) dual gauge double track. This resulted in the Rail America operator, Freight Australia, having its locomotive fleet split something like 50/50 between broad and standard gauge, but with the bigger units more on standard gauge for the longer interstate hauls. Freight Australia is expected to merge with Pacific National, so far only standard gauge, and this might apply some pressure to the gauge question in Victoria. The Freight Australia lease included the track in Victoria (for 45 years) but whether this will go to Pacific National (who so far have no track, only operating rights) has not been decided. I'm just going to keep watching what happens! Ever since 1962, the conversion of the main interstate lines has been carried out with minimum change to the rest of the system pushing the real problem into the future while making it bigger and more complex. The future of the smaller, low traffic lines is made worse by the separation from the interstate main lines. I think more lines will close rather than be converted to standard gauge. Peter Reply CSSHEGEWISCH Member sinceMarch 2016 From: Burbank IL (near Clearing) 13,540 posts Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Friday, April 9, 2004 10:33 AM To Peter and the other Australians: It appears to me that the broad gauge in Victoria is slowly disappearing since most of the main lines have been converted to standard or dual-gauge but that the narrow gauge in Queensland and Western Australia is surviving because each is a pretty substantial network in its own right. Is this a fair assessment from an American who is 10,000 miles away? The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul Reply Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Thursday, April 8, 2004 11:17 PM Peter: Since I wrote the above I went over to Teraserver.com and found they have changed the program considerably. It used to be free and one could zero in on almost any location in the States and with a resolution down to about 1 meter....That brings it down to where one can see your car in the driveway, etc....very easy. I found my home here in Indiana and also the condo we stayed at down in Florida and looked at many famous locations here in this country...Such as Horseshoe Curve in Pennsylvania....The tunnels and the lead in to them on the Pennsylvania Turnpike...and many others. It was great. I even followed the abandoned Western Maryland RR in Pennsylvania and followed it as it crossed the Alleghney Mountains...tunnel and all...It took me about an hour and a half to follow it across the mountain...That is, moving from picture frame to picture frame until I was finished... Quentin Reply M636C Member sinceJanuary 2002 4,612 posts Posted by M636C on Thursday, April 8, 2004 10:21 PM Modelcar, No I've never tried to look up satellite photos, but I think the track nearer my home through the mountains would be more interesting than the straight. You would need a pretty high resolution in the images, but it would be interesting. Sometimes it's a help to know the alignment of a piece of track just to predict the light for photography. Doggy, Yes, Iraq was at one time connected to Europe by rail, through Turkey, (although they needed a train ferry across the Bosphorus at Istanbul). They have a number of Chinese diesel locomotives in Iraq, so the clearances might allow US locomotives, but the track might not take US axle loads. Bachmann already make the Chinese DF4B locomotive in HO gauge, for those wanting to model Iraq! Peter Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, April 8, 2004 9:56 PM Iraq's gague is 4ft. 8.5 In Interasting DOGGY Reply Edit Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Thursday, April 8, 2004 7:57 PM Kozzie....Peter: One side question....Have either one of you tried to pull up a satellite photo of your 300 mi. of tangent track across Australia....Such as Teraserver.com or possibly it's not available in your country....'We can do that here just about any location in the states....A great way to see special rail routes in mountains, etc....[:)] Quentin Reply BR60103 Member sinceJanuary 2001 From: Guelph, Ont. 1,476 posts Posted by BR60103 on Wednesday, April 7, 2004 11:08 PM Peter: I think we call the track that takes you from one side to the other a "swish" or "swoosh". (senior's moment?) One of my friends had a layout with HO and HOn3 and he had at least 2. One of them was in a reverse loop. --David Reply M636C Member sinceJanuary 2002 4,612 posts Posted by M636C on Wednesday, April 7, 2004 5:59 AM Andyjay, The Darwin link was expected about twenty years ago, when the standard gauge reached Alice Springs. The Federal government just decided against it on a cost basis. The current line was built to lighter standards than was proposed in the 1980s. But it will almost certainly be successful commercially. The "Inland Rail Expressway", mentioned earlier is intended to link Queensland to Darwin via Mount Isa and Tennant Creek, and this is the most likely of the possible major links, but I'm not holding my breath until they start that link, let alone finish it. The Pilbara lines are basically exporting to Japan and China, with some to Europe. There are only two steel plants in the the South and East, and the occasional iron ore carrier will take a load to Whyalla or Port Kembla, but Whyalla has its own mines with a 3'6" network (but a standard gauge system for the steelworks itself). Port Kembla brings all its ore in by sea. So I don't expect a connection to Perth. The nearest lines, at Geraldton, are 3'6" anyway. A connection by rail would be good for tourism and would reduce costs in the North West. The existing lines there will probably connect between the Western (Pilbara Rail) and Eastern (BHP Billiton) systems. The gap may be a few kilometres now. A major difference from Africa is that Australia is a single country, with far fewer people. The rail systems might have been built by competing national governments, but we are slowly getting our act together. I'm not sure that recent privatisation has helped standardisation much, but I'll wait and see. Peter Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, April 7, 2004 3:03 AM That's pretty incredible about how a new line was built to the north coast from Alice Springs. The word "finally!" comes to mind. I'm from America but I have a great interest in Australia, seeing as how I used to have an email relationship with a girl from Melbourne, plus it seems like a very fascinating country, like America with an edge. ;) Heh, we Americans have a rail network running around our outer perimeters, along both coasts and the Canadian and Mexican borders. You Ozzies don't think you'll ever try something like that; maybe build a link from Darwin to Brisbane or link the Hamersley Iron lines to Perth? (It could provide a more convenient tourist link to the Kimberley and Top End, and perhaps cut down on shipping Hamersley ore to Perth and the east coast.) Dang, you guys must feel like Cecil Rhodes when he first proposed the Cape-to-Cairo line in Africa (which still has yet to be completed, hint hint...) Reply Edit M636C Member sinceJanuary 2002 4,612 posts Posted by M636C on Tuesday, April 6, 2004 11:41 PM David, I think what you may have seen was photo of a stretch of track in South Australia where three gauges were provided with four rails to allow for some specific junctions to be arranged. If my memory is correct, there was a 3'6" pair of rails in the centre, with an additional rail on one side for 5'3" and one on the other side for standard. This avoided having three rails almost touching eachother on one side, which made spiking it down a bit difficult. The two outside rails did make extracting a single gauge to go in a particular direction easier, but needed much more clearance space! There was a fourth "gauge" using the outer two rails which was never used. As I mentioned earlier, special arrangements were made for turntables in roundhouses, that had six specially machined rails so that the locomotives were central on each gauge. However, at Tailem Bend, when the main line was converted to standard gauge in 1995, a turntable was converted by adding a third rail, and some juggling was required to get standard gauge locomotives on and off, some angular misalignment being accepted. The broad gauge lines there were isolated, and were converted to standard soon after that, but I'll bet the turntable is still dual gauge! Sometimes, with broad and standard gauge lines, it is convenient to move the third rail from one side to another, to keep the pointwork as simple as possible. One of these strange little crossovers was located near the buffers on platform 2 of Spencer St Station in Melbourne. It had worked well for thirty years or so, the civil engineers having removed a small arc from the platform face to allow the throw at the end of standard gauge vehicles as they ran through. In 1992, the preserved 4-6-2 3801 ran, reasonably slowly through the "crossover" and they discovered that the little arc cut out wasn't big enough to clear the outside cylinders of a steam locomotive. There were red faces all around, but only the lagging sheets were damaged, and the cutout was bigger for the locomotive's next visit. Steam locomotives had used the track for years, but this was the first standard gauge steam locomotive to use that section. Peter Reply BR60103 Member sinceJanuary 2001 From: Guelph, Ont. 1,476 posts Posted by BR60103 on Tuesday, April 6, 2004 10:57 PM Kozzie and Pete: This was an interesting discussion. I'm going to print it out for reference. I think I saw a picture of track in Australia with 4 different gauges. Can you tell me where it might be? We had similar problems in Canada, but not to the same extent. Ontario decreed that any lines that wanted a provincial subsidy had to be built to Ontario gauge (forget what it was - 5' or 5'3" maybe.) Something to do with protecting trade. Most of them were converted to standard very quickly. A lot of N.A. streetcar (tram) systems were constructed to non-standard gauge. This was explained as preventing the running of freight trains down the streets. Toronto gauge was 4' 10 7/8", which is only a hair off of 1.5 meters, although it's now quoted as 1495 mm. The downtown lines were built to this, while the suburban lines were built to standard. The suburban lines were either converted or abandoned. There's a story of suburban cars being run very carefully into the city one one rail and the flange of the other rail. The province of Newfoundland had a 42" gauge system. They ran mainland cars by changing the trucks over. Don't think the Nfld cars ever ran on the mainland. (I need to look up some details before tomorrow night.) --David Reply M636C Member sinceJanuary 2002 4,612 posts Posted by M636C on Tuesday, April 6, 2004 1:12 AM It was cloudy here last night, but I did see the moon briefly. We had nasturtiums in the garden when I was very young, and I remember eating the leaves. They had quite an interesting taste! Peter Reply Kozzie Member sinceJanuary 2003 From: Australia 786 posts Posted by Kozzie on Tuesday, April 6, 2004 12:42 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar Kozzie....That big beautiful full moon [minus one day], is just now rising and it will be as pretty as it was last night....So you fellows didn't use it all up yet. Hey Modelcar! [:)] We Aussies aren't greedy are we Peter? [(-D][(-D][(-D] Enjoy the moon. We've now got cloudy weather down here in Brisbane, so we won't see much tonight. [V]...hmmmm you didn't send the clouds did you modelcar? ...no...I'm casting nasturtiums here.. ha ha [:D] Cheers Dave (Kozzie) Reply M636C Member sinceJanuary 2002 4,612 posts Posted by M636C on Monday, April 5, 2004 8:24 PM Dave, It connects with the branch to Wandoan from Miles on the Charleville line, and with the remains of the Dawson Valley line at Theodore to connect to the Moura line at the North end. Separately, another line is being built from Rangan on the Central line to Rolleston, but that will be narrow gauge only (they haven't really caught on to the possibilities yet). Peter Reply Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Monday, April 5, 2004 8:09 PM Kozzie....That big beautiful full moon [minus one day], is just now rising and it will be as pretty as it was last night....So you fellows didn't use it all up yet. Quentin Reply Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Monday, April 5, 2004 7:57 PM ...It sure is interesting to hear Australia [any nation], is building railroads. Quentin Reply Kozzie Member sinceJanuary 2003 From: Australia 786 posts Posted by Kozzie on Monday, April 5, 2004 7:44 PM Hey Peter re: ".... that a 130 km line will be built from Wandoan to Theodore in (southern) central Queensland...." will that mean a connection to the Brisbane to Charleville line via the existing branch to Wandoan, or, does it corss over the Charleville line on another alignment? Kozzie Dave (Kozzie) Reply M636C Member sinceJanuary 2002 4,612 posts Posted by M636C on Monday, April 5, 2004 7:26 PM Guys, Hot News: In the latest (April 2004) edition of the Australian monthly "Railway Digest", on page 4 it is reported that a 130 km line will be built from Wandoan to Theodore in (southern) central Queensland. This will provide a connection that will form a link in a line from Melbourne (Victoria) to Gladstone (Queensland). Sadly there are other gaps yet to be filled, and parts of the current track are both narrow (3"6") and standard gauges. This line will be built using dual gauge concrete ties, however, allowing quick and cheap conversion to standard gauge. The line will initially serve narrow gauge coal trains to the export port at Gladstone, using the Moura short line, one of the lines built in the 1960s that was originally intended to be standard gauge. The line will be built by the "Australian Transport and Energy Corridor (ATEC)" and is intended to form part of a line extending to Tennant Creek on the Alice Springs to Darwin line, the new line to be called the "Australian Inland Rail Expressway". Now, I'm more than a little sceptical about the chances of all of this happening, the chances of a snowball in Hell come to mind. But at least the option to convert will be there. Now, if we can convince the Victorian government that passenger trains should be standard gauge... Peter Reply Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Sunday, April 4, 2004 9:00 PM All interesting. At least the planners made the bridge adequate in capacity...Enjoy the music....Bet that sounds great. [8D] Quentin Reply M636C Member sinceJanuary 2002 4,612 posts Posted by M636C on Sunday, April 4, 2004 8:53 PM I keep meaning to put on a long telephoto and take the moon as it rises (but I usually see such a moon when driving up to Sydney in the evening, and I'm never in the right place at the right time). The Sydney Harbour Bridge always had steps, ladders and railings dating back to the construction. There is even a rack railway on the upper chord, with an electrically driven crane which was used for construction. I'm told that it runs very, very slowly! No, I don't know the gauge, but it's probably less than standard. The bridge was built with four standard gauge tracks, two each side of six road lanes, but two were replaced by road lanes after being used for streetcars for about thirty years. Outside my window right now is a Royal Australian Air Force band practicing for a ceremonial welcome for someone. Peter Reply Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Sunday, April 4, 2004 8:46 PM ...Hey, that's cheating, but we'll accept that. Quentin Reply Kozzie Member sinceJanuary 2003 From: Australia 786 posts Posted by Kozzie on Sunday, April 4, 2004 8:39 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar Right now I'm seeing a very pretty full moon out the home office window here and I'm thinking you fellows down under are in full daylight and missing out....but your turn is coming around too.... Hey Modecar [:)] I reckon we had the full moon last night! What do you reckon Pete? So...that means we had it first? ?HA HA[:D] Keep the humour coming, modelcar - very good! [;)] Kozzie Reply 12 Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. Login » Register » Search the Community Newsletter Sign-Up By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy More great sites from Kalmbach Media Terms Of Use | Privacy Policy | Copyright Policy
Originally posted by Big_Boy_4005 You Aussies have some very interesting geography, history, and trains. The railroads sound like a bit of a mess however. We Americans still can't figure out how you manage to keep them on the track, when everything is upside down.[D)][(-D][(-D][(-D][swg]
QUOTE: Originally posted by Big_Boy_4005 You Aussies have some very interesting geography, history, and trains. The railroads sound like a bit of a mess however. We Americans still can't figure out how you manage to keep them on the track, when everything is upside down.[D)][(-D][(-D][(-D][swg]
Quentin
--David
QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar Kozzie....That big beautiful full moon [minus one day], is just now rising and it will be as pretty as it was last night....So you fellows didn't use it all up yet.
QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar Right now I'm seeing a very pretty full moon out the home office window here and I'm thinking you fellows down under are in full daylight and missing out....but your turn is coming around too....
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