The National Railway Publication produced many different publications, including the Guide, a register of passenger cars, and railway line clearances. I was unable to find any company which publishes the latter information, though it may be that someone does so. I think that I also have a copy of a register of freight cars (if so, it is in one of the boxes at my dauhter's house, along with other railroadiana).
Johnny
timzFull-height stacks must use track 1; probably the early stack trains (two marine containers-- 18 ft 2 in, or less?) could use either track. As I recall the high-car detector on track 2 west of Colfax is 18-6. Dunno how it's supposed to work-- think it's less than half a mile from Tunnel 32. Or maybe I'm remembering wrong-- do enclosed trilevels run via track 2? Or do they assume all the auto trains have some of the newer, taller cars and run them on track 1?
Since RRs aren't required to put CLEARANCE signs on their tunnels, someone with time on their hands could search the various RR picture archives for definitive proof.
As for track 1 restoration work East of Summit, note that this single track segment is only four miles; this should not be a bottleneck for the DS unless multiple heavy westbounds are running nose-to-tail. In that case the corridor manager needs a shot or two to the head.
Links to my Google Maps ---> Sunset Route overview, SoCal metro, Yuma sub, Gila sub, SR east of Tucson, BNSF Northern Transcon and Southern Transcon *** Why you should support Ukraine! ***
YoHo1975 I'm willing to believe that what I've been told about Summit track 1 is completely in error as I consider it more of a local Roseville rumor mill. I however had no reason to disbelieve it. With the extensive work down on both mains over the last 5-6 years, why didn't they lower all the tunnels then? Whatever track they're using, I see a bunch of Domestic 53' double stack trains headed up Donner every day.
I'm willing to believe that what I've been told about Summit track 1 is completely in error as I consider it more of a local Roseville rumor mill. I however had no reason to disbelieve it.
With the extensive work down on both mains over the last 5-6 years, why didn't they lower all the tunnels then?
Whatever track they're using, I see a bunch of Domestic 53' double stack trains headed up Donner every day.
K.P. A few weeks back I posted the following link. http://railroadfan.com/wiki/index.php/UP_Roseville_Service_Unit_Symbols Roseville Service Unit Symbols. There's a lot to parse in there, but a quick look at the Canyon Sub shows that nearly all the trains on the line are Westbound.
Look at the coal trains where it is obvious. Westbound loads via Canyon, east bound emptys over Donner (that's probably due to Grades) but the rest of the canyon trains follow suit.
MikeF90CP Bowman - CP Colfax: 2MT CTC. Main 2 does not have all tunnels lowered for double stacks, which must use Main 1.
As I recall the high-car detector on track 2 west of Colfax is 19-6. Dunno how it's supposed to work-- think it's less than half a mile from Tunnel 32.
MikeF90 CP East Norden - CP Shed 47: Single track CTC. Main 1 pulled up by SP to reduce very costly winter maintenance just east of Summit. Extremely unlikely to restore existing ROW or to build new tunnel parallel to Tunnel 41.
CP East Norden - CP Shed 47: Single track CTC. Main 1 pulled up by SP to reduce very costly winter maintenance just east of Summit. Extremely unlikely to restore existing ROW or to build new tunnel parallel to Tunnel 41.
Mike,
Thanks for the update ! Only thing is that some say they have witnessed work done by the UP a few years ago that undercut the snowsheds on track #1 (sans tracks) over the top to allow clearance for the highest double stacks when/if the track is restored.
So, either that information is just plain wrong or they did have this in the works at one time. I thought about contacting the UP to find out what the straight dope really is but they probably won't tell me anyway.
Regards,
Fred M. Cain
Nicely done, Mike F90!
As a former resident of The Big Tomato who has been over The Hill numerous times back in the day, it is much appreciated! Thank you!
I've been trying to follow the Roseville sub upgrading for a few years and I'll summarize what I know. The best information this non-insider has is from ATCSMon layouts that are updated by locals who have eyeballs and receivers on the track and signals. Some recent changes might not be reflected in the following Google map: http://goo.gl/maps/gWLpF Track 1 is original Central Pacific built ROW, few tunnels, slower curves. Track 2 built later during first UP/SP merger with more tunnels and faster curves. Note that tracks flyover at Rocklin and Tunnel 26. From west to east:CP Yosemite - CP Bowman: 2MT CTC. CP Bowman - CP Colfax: 2MT CTC. Main 2 does not have all tunnels lowered for double stacks, which must use Main 1.CP Colfax - CP Switch 9: 2MT CTC. Status of some universal crossovers is unknown.CP Switch 9 - CP Shed 10: Single track CTC. Second track pulled up by SP but may be restored pending improved traffic and possible USFS environmental review (regrading, curve straightening, etc).CP Shed 10 - CP East Norden: 2MT CTC.CP East Norden - CP Shed 47: Single track CTC. Main 1 pulled up by SP to reduce very costly winter maintenance just east of Summit. Extremely unlikely to restore existing ROW or to build new tunnel parallel to Tunnel 41. CP Shed 47 - CP East Truckee: 2MT CTC.CP East Truckee - CP West Reno: Status of CTC upgrade from DT ABS is unknown.CP West Reno - CP Vista: 2MT CTC, east end of Roseville sub, west end of single track CTC Nevada sub.
YoHo1975 When UP bought SP, Donner wasn't able to handle double stacks
Donner couldn't handle 20-ft-2-inch stacks.
YoHo1975So they took the time to undercut and notch the tunnels
UP took the time to enlarge track 1 over the summit? After that track had been pulled up? But they didn't bother to enlarge the tunnels on track 2 Bowman to Colfax?
YoHo1975:
Have you personally seen an increase of westbound trains in the Feather River Canyon, and an eastbound bent on Donner?
If such is now taking place, are crews taking four days to make a complete round trip?
There are things taking place now relative to the Sunset Route in Arizona that may be explained in the light of what is happening on the western Central Corridor routes as mentioned above. Your western Central Corridor input, YoHo1975, would be helpful in making an assessment of things now taking place on the southern Sunset Route.
Thanks,
K.P.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- K.P.’s absolute “theorem” from early, early childhood that he has seen over and over and over again: Those that CAUSE a problem in the first place will act the most violently if questioned or exposed.
Traffic is ticking up, but UP has figured out how to leverage Feather River and Donner in a semi directional manner, so I'm guessing congestion at the summit is much less. UP's purchase of WP did impact Donner. Rio Grande just didn't generate enough traffic to overcome it. But there's a more fundamental issue and that is that LA is more important than the bay for Intermodal. In 1993, SP's Sunset route was their most important asset. Trains from the LA basin to Texas and the midwest. UP owned all of the Overland route's connections to the midwest and the east. Both the MoPac at the end of Tennessee pass in Pueblo and the UP itself at Salt Lake. Port of LA/Long Beach is the premier port on the west coast. Everything else is a fraction of the size. SP put their money where it would return the best investment. When UP bought SP, Donner wasn't able to handle double stacks, but it is shorter and less prone to slides. So they took the time to undercut and notch the tunnels to take advantage of that shorter transit time.
Had UP not bought SP, the logical partner might have been BN and eventually BNSF, but BNSF wasn't going to be interested in the rest of the SP, just the route into Norcal...and that would be a big maybe since the Transcon and Tehachapi already offered them a good route in.
Yoho,
In my own personal, honest, humble and possibly ignorant opinion, I think pulling up Track #1 was a short-sighted mistake. Both tracks had CTC and bidirectional signalling if I remember right. I have ridden over Donner on Amtrak after it was taken out and I can attest to the fact that traffic often bunches up near the top on this section of the railroad.
Unfortunately, I can kinda see why they did it. After the UP took over the WP but before they acquired SP, the SP's part of the former "Overland" Route had very little traffic. On one trip I did not see a single freight train - not one - between Sparks and Roseville. That was pretty bad. This guy Moyers who took the track out probably hoped he could still turn the SP around without selling it outright to another entity. It was not to be.
Now, with traffic ticking upward again, they are probably going to need it. I wish them luck getting this by the Sacramento legislature, The Sierra Club and environmentalists in general. There are way too many environmentalists out there who have simply never figured out that railroads are the most environmentally "friendly" form of land transportation.
Track 1 over the summit was pulled up in 1993 so the rail could be used on the Sunset route.
I can't speak to 1967, but I've had multiple people over the past few years indicate that the tunnels were undercut for doublestacks relatively recently. There are some parts of the snowsheds that seem to me to show that activity from US40, but I honestly don't have the first hand experience to know.
timz YoHo1975 UP did undercut the tunnels and snowsheds. In 1967-- if you're talking about track 1 over the summit.
YoHo1975 UP did undercut the tunnels and snowsheds.
In 1967-- if you're talking about track 1 over the summit.
Tim,
I don't think it was 1967. Both the #1 and #2 tracks remained in service until the late 1980s, I think it was. I was a frequent Amtrak patron back in the '80s and rode over Donner Pass once or twice a year. Although the track over the top was still in service at that time, the SP had a way of running Amtrak through the tunnel in both directions.
But one time, not long before the track was removed, I went out West and the SP was doing track work in the tunnel. Our Amtrak train was run over the top. I was offered a beautiful view of Donner Lake and could see old U.S. 40 on the other side of the canyon. I was so glad I got a chance to do that since that's a ride I will probably never be able to take again. Unless, of course, the track is restored and it might well be. But don't hold your breath.
Regrds,
YoHo1975UP did undercut the tunnels and snowsheds. You can see it when you go up there and take in the view from US40. There was talk when they went through a few years back and upgraded the entire line that they'd relay the last piece of main 1 over the summit, but then the traffic downturn hit. For a while Feather River was virtually unused. Right now, as discussed in a different thread a few weeks back, UP runs Donner and Canyon sub kinda sorta directionally, Feather River is almost entirely westbound traffic. Donner is bidirectional, but obviously more east bounds than west bounds. Between this and the traffic drop, summit track 1 isn't going to offer a lot of added capacity. If traffic levels ever increase, then First, you'd probably see more eastbounds moving back to Canyon sub and only when that was starting to clog up would you get Summit track 1 relayed. So, yes, UP did the prep work in case they ever have to do it. It would be relatively simple to do, but no current plans to do it.
If what you're telling me is accurate, there WAS a plan to reopen that track over the top! This doesn't surprise me at all. The UP was a huge advocate of double-track railroading. If that track had not been removed prior to the UP takeover of the SP then I would nearly bet the farm that UP would never have removed it.
The downturn you're blaming has also put the double tracking of the Sunset Route on hold along with the reopening of the West Phoenix line (Arlington-Wellton).
But change might be on the way. Twice now in the last couple of weeks, the Wall Street Journal has done articles on a big uptick in truck traffic. Truckers can't get new trucks or drivers fast enough and are raising rates. This may prestage an upturn in rail traffic as companies like J.B. Hunt shift more trailers and containers from lanes to rails. We'll see.
Fred M.Cain
YoHo1975UP did undercut the tunnels and snowsheds.
Would be charitable to call it a rumor.
timz If you're asking about Donner Summit itself-- far as anyone knows, no plans to restore the second track there.
If you're asking about Donner Summit itself-- far as anyone knows, no plans to restore the second track there.
After reading the first few posts in this thread (from 2008), I was led to believe that there was a plan. So, what happened? Has that plan been "temporarily" put on hold, shelved or was the so-called "plan" nothing more that a rumor to begin with?
This PTC mandate has the railroads in somewhat of a bind. A lot of infrastructure plans and programs have been shelved, put on hold or slowed down because of it. I'm wondering if this isn't one of those issues.
I was just wondering if anyone might have or know an update on this issue, restoring the second track over Donner. Looks like the last post was from 2008.
I have ridden Amtrak over Donner several times after the SPT Co removed the second track and can vouch for the fact that this can or does create somewhat of a "bottleneck" at times.
Anything happening here? Maybe this is a little bit like the UP restoring the "west Phoenix line". Always out sometime in the fuzzy future.
CShaveRR wrote:George, the UP turned down the state money for this work, saying they'd rather do it on their own. Reason: too many strings attached, apparently requiring the use of the line for additional passenger traffic.
I'd love to see some of the Capitols extended to Reno. Sounds like it is not going to happen for some time.
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
I have heard that some of the major tunnel clearance problems on Donner Pass are not around Donner Summit as much as they are further down the Hill where the original and Harriman 'rebuild' lines both parallel and criss-cross each other between Rocklin and Colfax. I have seen double-stackers over the Donner Pass line, but not as many as travel up the single-track Feather River Route. To re-double track the section between Emigrant Gap and Crystal Lake, it seems as if all UP has to do is move the single track back to its original alignment and re-lay the second track. From Norden east over the Summit to Lakeview--the original alignment of the Pass--the snowsheds are still in place, though right now the right-of-way is being used as a scenic trail.
I think that Union Pacific is finally realizing that even though the grades are stiffer over the Sierra on the Donner Pass route, it is also a more direct route into and out of Northern California than the Feather River Canyon, and despite the grades, does not have the 25mph speed limit of the Canyon. Plus, shipping in the Port of Oakland has risen the past few years, certainly enough to warrant decreasing rail transport time east as much as possible. The UP double-tracking its Sunset Route is to alleviate traffic stagnation from ports in Southern California, not draw traffic from Northern California, which is establishing its own heavy traffic patterns east. And possibly cut into BNSF's own lucrative Richmond/Oakland/Barstow traffic. The old Overland Route from Northern California east is still one of the best. It just needs to prove it.
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
SP removed two pieces of double track, one maybe 4-or-5 mile piece over the summit and another 7?-mile piece a ways down the west slope. There have been constant rumors about that second piece being replaced, especially when state money was in prospect, but nothing definite there yet. As for the stretch over the summit, don't hold your breath.
(The westward grade in the 1.95-mile tunnel just east of the summit is 1.47%, which is less than on the line around the mountain (the one now removed), but a maximum-tonnage train may have a better chance going around the mountain considering cooling problems in the tunnel.)
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