Bucyrus wrote: henry6,For what reason can you not agree with most of what I said? What is the part you can agree with?
henry6,
For what reason can you not agree with most of what I said? What is the part you can agree with?
First, I my fear is that the post has wandered too far away from the railroad theme to be sustained.
I cannot agree with your assessments of what happened duirng the credit crunch. I do blame overzealous investment bankers on pressuring for loans, credit, and mortgages to people who really didn't understand what thier ulitmate burden and responsibility would be nor the consequences should things go wrong. I also don't agree that there shouldn't have been more, or at least enforced, oversight and regulation. To me, and many others, those investment bankers knew that they could get away with their personal fortunes while the government would have to hold the bag. If there had been oversight and enforcement of exisiting regulations then the government, with public monies, would not be bailing them out. And I hardly believe the government forced the pushing of these loans by lenders. About the only thing I can agree on is that the present situtation will force the price of housing down.
What I really wish could have happened is that everyone with one of these so called bad mortgages were given a direct payment from 50 to 90% of thier mortgage value and put the onus of payment to the lenders on the borrowers. This would have sorted out the good and the bad boys on both sides of the problem. The follow thorugh, however, would be stricter oversight and regulations by government and the removal of the so called leaders of the financial industry with penelty for any criminal misdeeds (which have to be proven).
Yes, we have lost control of our government and allowed it to lose control of our country. We have to get things back under control. I believe, unlike what has been presented here, that those in charge of our business community have, in the name of economical operations and profit, have at all costs, moved the country's money overseas. Even the Robber Barons of the 19th and 20th Century worked at building American industry and communities, not tearing them down and sending Main St., USA and its supporting factories to Asia or elsewhere. If our population cannot buy houses, cars, appliances, etc., because big business doesn't employ them, then there will be more down turns in American life and big business and its investors cannot complain about being looked at with suspicion with a feeling they be regulated.
But I really feel that this crisis, coupled with a lot of economic and evnironmental matters especially in the area of transportaion, is leading to a greater middle ground of cooperation and and joint projects. The best of Capitalism and Socialism will be operate in consortium to bring the USA through the 21st Century without capitulating or giving way to anyother country. There probably will be pendulum like swings one way or the other at times, but overall, both business and government know today that survival of both is in each others hands. Each side has to trust the other a little bit more, but each side has to accept more responsiblity, too, to make it happen.
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My intention in my earlier post on this topic was to try to say that long-winded expositions of economic theory are wasted; the game has changed in the USA. Capitalism as believed in by some here has been altered, permanently.
May I suggest that if you don't know what credit default swaps or derivitives are, or can't explain them, then you have no idea at all how this mess developed or if the current efforts to fix the mess will work. Otherwise, you're just parroting what you've heard or read.
Let's not blame a poor yutz who just wants to own a house, even if he can't afford it.
So.......how many of us are ready to post comments on credit default swaps and derivitives? No wonder the American people are confused and angry.
NKP guy wrote: My intention in my earlier post on this topic was to try to say that long-winded expositions of economic theory are wasted; the game has changed in the USA. Capitalism as believed in by some here has been altered, permanently. May I suggest that if you don't know what credit default swaps or derivitives are, or can't explain them, then you have no idea at all how this mess developed or if the current efforts to fix the mess will work. Otherwise, you're just parroting what you've heard or read.Let's not blame a poor yutz who just wants to own a house, even if he can't afford it.So.......how many of us are ready to post comments on credit default swaps and derivitives? No wonder the American people are confused and angry.
I have to agree with you, NKP...as I am one of those who don't know what credit default swaps and deriviteis are really all about. I do understand that it involves the buying and exchanging of credit accounts like mortgages from the local or "hometown" lender to an investment bank or firm, then reselling up to another investment instrument or organization. From there, all I understand is that the local or "hometown" lender reaped his profit and washed his hands of the transaction and now a second (or third or fourth or...) party holds the paper which is or can be in turn resold to the next level, etc. My question here is: is principal involved in the value of the account or only the interest due?
I further agree that the game has changed. Capitalism has been altered but not killed off here in the United States. It now has to partner with others to grow itself. Patriotism (mine) tells me the partnering should be within our contury, thus, with governments. However, I get the feeling that hard core (for lack of a better term) Capitalists just as soon sell to the highest bidder no matter where the money comes from, even if from a foreign government. But it should be noted that other free world countries in Europe and elsewhere do work with such a parochial partnership keeping the money, the porperty, the power, inside their own countries. United States companies have been literally thrown out of foreign countries or at least forced into local partnerships with private enterprises and/or governments. (Canada has strict rules of Canadian ownership demanding so much of a product has to be of Canadian origin. Even in such things as music: recordings in Canada have to be of an exclusive arrangemtent and "mixing" even though it may be the same song or musical piece as in, say, the U.S. or UK; and this extends to "imported" recordings, too.)
One of the agreements, if you will, concerning deregulation of a lot of businesses, (rail, banking, communications, etc.) was that such deregulation would allow for greater competiton, thus lowereing prices and increasing quality as a win/win situation for both business and consumer. What has happend has been that it allowed the swallowing of all competition into larger and larger corporations, eliminating competition, driving prices up in many markets, eliminating jobs in many communities, lowering product quality and giving nothing but lip service to service! Thus, even some of those who were for deregulation in the past are having second thoughts.
And so, we now stand on the precipice of a new era in government, politics, and business.
henry6 wrote: Bucyrus wrote: henry6,For what reason can you not agree with most of what I said? What is the part you can agree with? First, I my fear is that the post has wandered too far away from the railroad theme to be sustained.I cannot agree with your assessments of what happened duirng the credit crunch. I do blame overzealous investment bankers on pressuring for loans, credit, and mortgages to people who really didn't understand what thier ulitmate burden and responsibility would be nor the consequences should things go wrong. I also don't agree that there shouldn't have been more, or at least enforced, oversight and regulation. To me, and many others, those investment bankers knew that they could get away with their personal fortunes while the government would have to hold the bag. If there had been oversight and enforcement of exisiting regulations then the government, with public monies, would not be bailing them out. And I hardly believe the government forced the pushing of these loans by lenders. About the only thing I can agree on is that the present situtation will force the price of housing down.What I really wish could have happened is that everyone with one of these so called bad mortgages were given a direct payment from 50 to 90% of thier mortgage value and put the onus of payment to the lenders on the borrowers. This would have sorted out the good and the bad boys on both sides of the problem. The follow thorugh, however, would be stricter oversight and regulations by government and the removal of the so called leaders of the financial industry with penelty for any criminal misdeeds (which have to be proven). Yes, we have lost control of our government and allowed it to lose control of our country. We have to get things back under control. I believe, unlike what has been presented here, that those in charge of our business community have, in the name of economical operations and profit, have at all costs, moved the country's money overseas. Even the Robber Barons of the 19th and 20th Century worked at building American industry and communities, not tearing them down and sending Main St., USA and its supporting factories to Asia or elsewhere. If our population cannot buy houses, cars, appliances, etc., because big business doesn't employ them, then there will be more down turns in American life and big business and its investors cannot complain about being looked at with suspicion with a feeling they be regulated. But I really feel that this crisis, coupled with a lot of economic and evnironmental matters especially in the area of transportaion, is leading to a greater middle ground of cooperation and and joint projects. The best of Capitalism and Socialism will be operate in consortium to bring the USA through the 21st Century without capitulating or giving way to anyother country. There probably will be pendulum like swings one way or the other at times, but overall, both business and government know today that survival of both is in each others hands. Each side has to trust the other a little bit more, but each side has to accept more responsiblity, too, to make it happen.
Thanks for your feedback.
I surely agree with you and NKP guy when you say that capitalism has been suddenly altered permanently and that we are standing on the edge of a precipice. But I don't agree that one must understand what derivatives and credit default swaps are in order to understand what caused the housing crisis. The actual culprits would love to have us believe that. And I am certainly not blaming "...a poor yutz who just wants to own a house, even if he can't afford it," as NKP guy suggests. That is another red herring, to say that those who criticize the government motive of providing taxpayer subsidized housing are picking on the poor and homeless.
Your preference to see the government give direct payments to the mortgage holders is interesting. That would indeed shake out the truth of who is and is not capable of paying their loan. Otherwise we will have beauacracies deciding which mortgages to buy out, and because nobody can predict the future, we will never know whether the borrowers could have serviced the loans that the government bought.
But the way I look at it, it really does not make much difference how well this works or if it works at all-or-if it makes the problem worse, which it very well might. The reason that it doesn't make any difference is because the main motivation has been fulfilled. That is that a hungry government, expanding out of control, has just had another 3/4 -trillion dollars laid on its plate. Government talks a lot about corporate greed these days. But a government that cannot stop feeding itself on other people's money is the true embodiment of greed. I will bet you that ¾-trillion will not be enough. There is no such thing as enough when it comes to funding the public sector.
I don't see socialism and capitalism working together as you hope for. How can they work together? They are in direct opposition, and mutually exclusive. How can both sides in a tug-of-war work together?
More socialism requires a bigger government, and government has a self-interest in getting bigger and expanding its power. So the government system naturally pulls to the left. On Friday, socialism got a lot bigger in the U.S., and capitalism got correspondingly smaller.
It had always seemed like the most probable vector for socialism to make a big inroad to our system would be socialized medicine. Energy, housing, and transportation are also in the sights of socialism, but healthcare has long been considered the low hanging fruit. On Friday, socialized housing leapt to the front of the line. And as an indication of the stealthy and predatory nature of socialism in general, it snuck in through the back door, completely circumventing our representative republic system. Oh sure, congress debated the spending, but the debt was created completely out of the public's view and without their consent, starting back in the 1990s. The government created a lot of cheap housing for people who could not afford it, and now they have asked the public to pay for it.
You say you blame the housing crisis on overzealous lenders and not on government pressure. The popular perception is that the blame lies with the borrowers who borrowed too much or the lenders who pressured the borrowers to borrow too much; the so-called predatory lenders. But those are red herrings intended to deflect the blame from the government policy and the specific politicians who produced it. Predatory lenders do not make loans to people who cannot pay them back. Predatory lenders make loans to people who can pay them back, but should not borrow the money. And in a normal free market system, people cannot possibly borrow more than they can afford, because lenders will not lend them more than they can afford.
I disagree that more oversight would have prevented the need for this bailout. You cite the investment bankers who made a lot of money and left the government holding the bag. My point is that the government should not have been holding the bag in the first place. "Holding the bag" was the guarantee that took the risk away from the lenders and placed it on the public.
And the government did indeed pressure lenders, under threat of prosecution, to make loans to under-qualified borrowers on the basis that failing to do so amounted to discrimination. Both the federal pressure to make loans and the federal assumption of risk were introduced through the Community Reinvestment Act and through Freddie Mac / Fannie Mae.
I realize that this entire explanation may seem to fly in the face of what you have come to believe. But this story is now even beginning to seep into the mainstream news media. So it won't be long before it is widely understood by the public. Take a good look at this article that Greyhounds posted above from the New York Times in 1999. It not only describes in detail what I have said here about the government causing the housing crisis, but also heaps praise upon the motive as if it were government altruism. Leave it to the NYT to endorse the Nanny State. Now we have a textbook case of seeing where it leads:
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C0DE7DB153EF933A0575AC0A96F958260&s...
P.S. Not only are we well on our way to socialized housing, but we are also heading down the road to socializing financial risk; perhaps the most dangerous of all possible forms of socialism. As the economy turns down, the tax revenue streams will go dry, leaving all levels of government unable to cut spending and gasping for relief, and one by one, calling for a public bailout. Bailouts will become the new form of taxation, which is grabbing the revenue in big gobs and charging it to our future livelihoods.
Bucyrus wrote: I don't see socialism and capitalism working together as you hope for. How can they work together? They are in direct opposition, and mutually exclusive. How can both sides in a tug-of-war work together?
Only have time to comment on this at the moment. Aren't most European countries a mix of capitalism and socialism unde the banner of democracy? We are but just not to the extent that they are. Yet. I believe, for instance, that universal health care should not be made available because the so called lowley poor can't afford it but because big business needs a healthy, non distracted work force for consistancy and quality. If that's socialism, than so be it!
henry6 wrote: Bucyrus wrote: I don't see socialism and capitalism working together as you hope for. How can they work together? They are in direct opposition, and mutually exclusive. How can both sides in a tug-of-war work together? Only have time to comment on this at the moment. Aren't most European countries a mix of capitalism and socialism unde the banner of democracy? We are but just not to the extent that they are. Yet. I believe, for instance, that universal health care should not be made available because the so called lowley poor can't afford it but because big business needs a healthy, non distracted work force for consistancy and quality. If that's socialism, than so be it!
Well that would be socialism, but there is a way to fix healthcare without socializing it. The problem is that it is not in the interest of the insurance industry, the medical industry, or the government to go down the proper road to fix healthcare. So it will either remain overpriced under the current system or we will socialize it and it will need to be rationed because it will be in short supply. I am surprised at the reason you give for wanting socialized healthcare.
Yes many countries, including this one, are governed by a mix of socialism and capitalism. My point is that the two philosophies, although they can coexist, compete with each other rather than working together.
Bucyrus wrote: Yes many countries, including this one, are governed by a mix of socialism and capitalism. My point is that the two philosophies, although they can coexist, compete with each other rather than working together.
And under Capitalism competition is a good thing, ya? But it does seem to work better in some countries better than here. Scandenavian countries seem to be doing ok for instance.
Marginal tax rates near 50%. Here is one (only, and likely tending to one-sided) view on it.
http://www.freedomandprosperity.org/Papers/sweden/sweden.shtml
One thing for everyone to keep in mind. If the US Federal government was subject to the same accounting rules that private industry is now subject to, its total accumulated actual debt would be shown about 5 times higher than what it now shows--pretty much all due to having to put the long-term estimated liabilities for SS, Medicaid, Medicare, and Federal Pensions on its books. (NOTE: This situation is not something that just happened recently. The problem really became acute approx. 45 years ago with the establishment of Medicare, Medicaid, and the annual indexing of SS benefits combined with the decision not to consider these as future liabilities on the Fed's books.)
henry6 wrote: Bucyrus wrote: Yes many countries, including this one, are governed by a mix of socialism and capitalism. My point is that the two philosophies, although they can coexist, compete with each other rather than working together. And under Capitalism competition is a good thing, ya? But it does seem to work better in some countries better than here. Scandenavian countries seem to be doing ok for instance.
I don't think that it is analogous to say that if the competition that is inherent in capitalism is a good thing (which it is), then the competition between capitalism and socialism is also a good thing. That is, if that is what you are suggesting. Capitalism also competes with such things as bad weather and organized crime. That competition is not a good thing either.
Socialism gives you high taxes, but that is somewhat expected and justified because it gives high levels of service with no direct charge. But the real problem with socialism is that it removes the motive to excel because the pie tends to be evenly divided no matter what each individual contributes to it. So you get a smaller pie as compared to a capitalistic system where each contributor is motivated to contribute to the pie because the piece they get to keep is in proportion to what they contribute. So, socialism discourages extra effort and excellence both because it does not reward them, and because it attempts to offset them with collective reward.
A society is generally better off producing the biggest possible pie even if the individual freedom and liberty necessary to produce it means that some people end up with bigger pieces than others. Those with too much will often sell or trade it off to those with less. So everybody is better off compared those in a socialist society that ends up with a smaller pie because they divide it up equally, no matter what each individual contributed to it. And usually, in that kind of system, the pie is especially small because the biggest piece goes to those who divide it up.
Our current problems have nothing to do with capitalism vs socialism. The problem is that both systems involve people - and people are flawed in that they all tend to believe in their own "goodness, rightness and fairness" and those who don't see it their way are obviously wrong, stupid or ignorant. So, whether you are operating in a socialsit environment or a capitalist one, unless you build in some really strong acountability, you'll just wind up with all kinds of greed and corruption - and the greedy and corrupt will generally be blind to their own errors. Remember, the Enron dudes weren't planning on skipping town with their ill-gotten gains. They had deep roots in the area. And, they really didn't believe they were building a house of cards nor did they believe they were really doing anything illegal -and therefore - they didn't beleive weren't doing anything wrong. Weak accountability from the Enron board let things roll merrily along.
So, why is capitalism generally better than socialism? If all you want to do tomorrow is the same thing you're doing today, socialism is just fine. But, if you want to generate inovation, you need a system that rewards inovation - and that is where capitalism shines.
The best example I know of in the railroad world where the difference between socialism and capitalism has been demostrated is CN. Is is bad to want some of that transformation for Amtrak?
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
selector wrote: Marginal tax rates near 50%. Here is one (only, and likely tending to one-sided) view on it.http://www.freedomandprosperity.org/Papers/sweden/sweden.shtml
For the US Federal tax and spending as percentage of GDP see chart #11 here: http://perotcharts.com/challenges/
For any who disbelieve my abovementioned explanation of what caused the housing crisis, you can always go with the 60-Minutes explanation last night. They blamed it all on Wall Street. They even had Wall Streeters on the segment blaming it on themselves. But I did notice that their explanation was entirely incomprehensible, unlike mine, which is totally understandable and logical. I see ABC ran a similar piece this morning blaming the bankers for lending to unqualified borrowers.
How can a borrower be unqualified when he or she has Uncle Sam co-signing the loan?
henry6 wrote: Aren't most European countries a mix of capitalism and socialism unde the banner of democracy? We are but just not to the extent that they are. Yet.
Aren't most European countries a mix of capitalism and socialism unde the banner of democracy? We are but just not to the extent that they are. Yet.
The USA has never been a democracy, it was established as a Representative Republic. Big difference between the two.
Jay
oltmannd wrote: selector wrote: Marginal tax rates near 50%. Here is one (only, and likely tending to one-sided) view on it.http://www.freedomandprosperity.org/Papers/sweden/sweden.shtmlFor the US Federal tax and spending as percentage of GDP see chart #11 here: http://perotcharts.com/challenges/
Just received the November issue but have followed these posts.
First - I am not an editor so I will not comment on Phillips' writing style - everyone's different. Biden has debated McCain about AMTRAK and we know their positions with Obama voting for and McCain voting against the RR safety and AMTRAK authorization bill. (Biden was out for the VP debate). Phillips' question is whether either ticket will do something intelligent about transportation overall.
Second: I believe Phillips does admire the European RRs setup after having read Phillips' columns for many issues.
Third:. What has made this country such an economic power house has been speedy transportation and communications. Ben Franklin's starting the post office, Pony express, Telegraph, RPOs, first Air Mail, Cheap long distance telephony. Also Goods and people by canals, RRs, Dredged waterways, Interstate highways, first Jet passenger aircraft, etc. All this speed has allowed goods and services to be located in the areas for each good and service that was perceived as the best location for that item.
Fourth: After WW II the rebuilding of the infrastructures in other countries are now beginning to affect the US. As a result of the devastation inflicted by WWII on many countries their infrastructure has had to be rebuilt from the ground up. I believe there is an overall transportation crisis in this Nation (Canada and Central America to a lesser extern) but it is coming from competition. What competition you ask. That is the EU, Japan, China, (Indonesia and Australia to a lesser degree). The competition is the Government subsidization of the transportation infrastructures of the EU and the named countries.
Fifth: Without the push of additional capital to speed up our public transportation sector the average US citizen will spend a larger percentage of total income on inefficient transportation than the above mentioned countries. Eisenhower found out how hard it was to move the military across the US on roads and when he became president he rightly pushed the interstate highway system however he did not include the RRs and the ICC 79MPH ruling and unnecessary rate regulation did not help RRs to move freight. Now with PTC on the way and much more double tracking would upgrade the RRs to give 100+ MPH average passenger speed and Freight 50+. This would speed up the above mentioned personal communications and allow intermodal to really blossom and the truckers would do what they do best - pickup freight and move it to intermodal locations. Although I do not like all the public financing that will be needed the competition from the other countries mentioned means the US cannot compete from a level playing field. I think that although Phillips does not say so directly he may be thinking along these lines.
Sixth: What results would this have? Infrastructure would be much larger. Needed rolling stock(both freight and passenger) for a given level of service would be reduced( Maybe 25 - 30% less for passenger) or carrying more revenue car and locomotive miles. Speedier service would decrease transit times.
Examples: Passenger 50 MPH Freight 75 MPH Freight
Chicago - LA 22Hr 44Hr 33hr
Washington - NY 2 4 3
NY - Boston 2-1/2 5 4
NY - Portland, Me 3-1/2 7 5-1/2
Bos, NY - Chicago 11 22 16-1/2
Chicago - New Orl 10 20 15
Chicago - Sea, PDX 22 44 33
oops; Office 2007 didn't paste correctly
Blue streak, that's an impressive posting. I agree 99% (I don't mind public financing of needed infrastucture building/repairing).
One other really good thing you didn't even mention: Just imagine, if we adopted your ideas, how much employment would surge in the country! And they'd be building things we all could use (unlike weaponry). It might mean a real shot in the arm to our economy in several ways.
blue streak 1 wrote: Fifth: Without the push of additional capital to speed up our public transportation sector the average US citizen will spend a larger percentage of total income on inefficient transportation than the above mentioned countries. Although I do not like all the public financing that will be needed the competition from the other countries mentioned means the US cannot compete from a level playing field. I think that although Phillips does not say so directly he may be thinking along these lines.
Fifth: Without the push of additional capital to speed up our public transportation sector the average US citizen will spend a larger percentage of total income on inefficient transportation than the above mentioned countries.
Although I do not like all the public financing that will be needed the competition from the other countries mentioned means the US cannot compete from a level playing field. I think that although Phillips does not say so directly he may be thinking along these lines.
Why does the government, using public money, make transportation more efficient compared to transportation financed by private capital? Government is inherently inefficient and undisciplined because they operate with other peoples' money, so their participation is bound to take a big slice of the action for their overhead.
NKP guy wrote: Blue streak, that's an impressive posting. I agree 99% (I don't mind public financing of needed infrastucture building/repairing).One other really good thing you didn't even mention: Just imagine, if we adopted your ideas, how much employment would surge in the country! And they'd be building things we all could use (unlike weaponry). It might mean a real shot in the arm to our economy in several ways.
If I give the gov't a dollar and they spend in on railroad construction or if I keep the dollar and spend it on an addition to my house, which provides the most employment and why?
selector wrote: oltmannd wrote: selector wrote: Marginal tax rates near 50%. Here is one (only, and likely tending to one-sided) view on it.http://www.freedomandprosperity.org/Papers/sweden/sweden.shtmlFor the US Federal tax and spending as percentage of GDP see chart #11 here: http://perotcharts.com/challenges/
If I ever get too happy, I just look at those slides....
oltmannd wrote: NKP guy wrote: Blue streak, that's an impressive posting. I agree 99% (I don't mind public financing of needed infrastucture building/repairing).One other really good thing you didn't even mention: Just imagine, if we adopted your ideas, how much employment would surge in the country! And they'd be building things we all could use (unlike weaponry). It might mean a real shot in the arm to our economy in several ways. If I give the gov't a dollar and they spend in on railroad construction or if I keep the dollar and spend it on an addition to my house, which provides the most employment and why?
Spending it on the house does. If you give it to the government, they will need five more to administer it.
Nothing important. Just needed the replies by email to stop.
Carry on.
http://www.youtube.com/user/pavabo
http://www.flickr.com/photos/paulvbox
This is a falacy. Public works don't "create jobs". At best, they transfer jobs from one project to another. More likely, they destroy some jobs because of government waste.
henry6 wrote: First, I my fear is that the post has wandered too far away from the railroad theme to be sustained.I cannot agree with your assessments of what happened duirng the credit crunch. I do blame overzealous investment bankers on pressuring for loans, credit, and mortgages to people who really didn't understand what thier ulitmate burden and responsibility would be nor the consequences should things go wrong. I also don't agree that there shouldn't have been more, or at least enforced, oversight and regulation. To me, and many others, those investment bankers knew that they could get away with their personal fortunes while the government would have to hold the bag. If there had been oversight and enforcement of exisiting regulations then the government, with public monies, would not be bailing them out. And I hardly believe the government forced the pushing of these loans by lenders. About the only thing I can agree on is that the present situtation will force the price of housing down.What I really wish could have happened is that everyone with one of these so called bad mortgages were given a direct payment from 50 to 90% of thier mortgage value and put the onus of payment to the lenders on the borrowers. This would have sorted out the good and the bad boys on both sides of the problem. The follow thorugh, however, would be stricter oversight and regulations by government and the removal of the so called leaders of the financial industry with penelty for any criminal misdeeds (which have to be proven). Yes, we have lost control of our government and allowed it to lose control of our country. We have to get things back under control. I believe, unlike what has been presented here, that those in charge of our business community have, in the name of economical operations and profit, have at all costs, moved the country's money overseas. Even the Robber Barons of the 19th and 20th Century worked at building American industry and communities, not tearing them down and sending Main St., USA and its supporting factories to Asia or elsewhere. If our population cannot buy houses, cars, appliances, etc., because big business doesn't employ them, then there will be more down turns in American life and big business and its investors cannot complain about being looked at with suspicion with a feeling they be regulated. But I really feel that this crisis, coupled with a lot of economic and evnironmental matters especially in the area of transportaion, is leading to a greater middle ground of cooperation and and joint projects. The best of Capitalism and Socialism will be operate in consortium to bring the USA through the 21st Century without capitulating or giving way to anyother country. There probably will be pendulum like swings one way or the other at times, but overall, both business and government know today that survival of both is in each others hands. Each side has to trust the other a little bit more, but each side has to accept more responsiblity, too, to make it happen.
Well good, this will bring us back to Don Phillips' writing.
First, take a look at the fact that the author of the quoted posted just "can't agree" with an "assesment". But it's not an "assesment". It's what happened. Hard, cold fact. The government decoupled lending from risk and required loans to unqualified buyers. That happened.
So how is the author of the quoted post able to dispute hard, cold facts? He, like Phillips, rejects facts that don't fit his ideology. People who have ideologies are "Ideologues" A noted philospher named Eric Hoffer wrote a book about them titled "The True Believer".
To "True Believers" their ideology is like a religion. If facts don't fit the belief they either ignore or twist the facts to fit their beliefs. In the quoted poster's case it just has to be the Wall Street bad guys and not the government because that is his belief, even if the facts are otherwise. Discussions with such "True Believers" are useless because they are imune to facts and "dispute" reality at all costs if reality conflicts with their ideology. They will also create fantasy situations to support their ideologies.
Phillips does this. He once wrote in Trains that "railroads can now do anything they want to with a whispered phone call". How sinister. Why would they whisper? They don't, of course. But he was shaping the lessened economic regulation of the railroads into something sinister. Why? Because his ideology requires him to view economic freedom as sinister. If the railroads have it, then they have something sinister that they will use in sinister ways.
Like the quoted poster, Phillips worships the ideology of wise men and women of government shaping railroads (and our lives) to create the Utopia that can only be achieved by the obeying of the rule of these wise government folks. How else could the quoted poster imagine that the best elements of socialism and capitalism will be selected to guide the US through the 21st Century? Who could possibly be wise enough to make the proper selections? (as if there were any "best elements" of socialism.)
Only They (the goverment anoited) know how and where to spend our incomes. Only They know what railroads should truely do. That's always been Phillips' line. He may be critical of some specifics, but he adores the top House of Reprsentatives transportation guy, Oberstar of Minnesota.
Oberstar introduced a bill to reregulate railroads in the House. Oberstar's bill was command economics that Karl Marx and Joe Stalin would be proud of. It won't work any better than their ideas did.
What was Phillips' reporting on the bill? He reported: "What Bill?" The language of the bill would stamp Oberstar as a complete economic idiot. But criticism of Oberstar doesn't fit Phillips' ideology, so we never learned of the bill's insane contents in Trains. Phillips, like the quoted poster, simply rejects facts that don't fit his ideology.
Finally, the quoted poster says that we have allowed our government to loose control of our country. Well, we're supposed to be a free people not under the control of our government. Yes, I know I have to drive on the right side of the road and at no more than 30 MPH in urban areas unless a lower limit is posted. That's minor.
What Phillips (and the quoted poster) seeks is nothing less than tyrany. A tyrany where the actions of individuals and businesses are controlled by the government. It doesn't matter to a slave if he/she is enslaved by one or many. He/she is still a slave. Phillips and his "fellow traveler", the quoted poster, think the railroads should (and we should) give up freedoms to become slaves of the wise men/women of government.
The fact that this has never, ever, worked doesn't phase either one of them one bit. It's their ideology, stupid. (Or their stupid ideology) Take your pick.
Trains does need to have a counter columnist to Phillips. Two pages a month. Phillips on one side, the good guy on the other. Bring back George Hilton?
I'll start this with some comments.
1. I really hope this thread does not get closed. It is really interesting to watch the arguments. It is kind of maddening that I see a great number of errors in facts.
2. I've not seen the November issue so I'll try to put my 2 cents worth in on the column later. I do read Mr Phillips with great interest. Some of the items are of great interest to me personally as I work in transportation(as an Over The Road Truck Driver[yes but I'm a railfan])
3. About Mr Phillips he did cover a lot of territory in the Post when he was there. I did greatly like reading about several railroads in the Southeast as this is where my company(in MS) is based. (I personally think I would not have done as well as I've done if one of the large RR companys had its act together. I hate to tell you the number of times shippers and receivers had to put freight on the road because another mode failed to deliver[remember (unnamed RR Quality, remember the great (president of RR).
4.Anyone who's been to europe sees that governments get better service out of there Railroads on the passenger side. The reason why not so many people complain about rail service here is they seldom use it(out of sight out of mind). Except when there is a mess somewhere(10000gal spill of a brown liquid anyone?(molasses),white smoke from a tank car(condensation in winter off a carload of hot asphault covered with snow)your train is blocking the road, etc, etc). The only reason europeans get more attention on their rail service is that europeans use their service a lot more.
5. Last. I have to ask this. Have we as a country ever found a good middle ground between too much & too little regulation? As extremes I use as an example of the Rock Island. It took the ICC what 13 years to approve a merger with UP that when they approved it they put so many conditions on it that UP just walked away. Then after deregulation (I think) they were just let go to dust.
Then 20 years later the SP-UP merger & resulting kaos followed by the Conrail buyout and breakup.
Comments from a dumb twuck dwiver.
Rgds IGN
Bucyrus wrote: The only remaining question is not who caused the crisis, but whether the American peoples' potential awareness of the truth can be completely squelched by the propaganda machine. It is going to be a close call.
The machine will win. Unfortunately.
"American peoples' potential awareness of the truth" sounds like an extended oxymoron.
I do place part of the blame on the lenders...who in their right mind lends $200,000.000 to a couple of kids each making a buck over minimum wage?
But the young couple across the street managed to get just such a loan...and when they couldn't keep up with the payments, much less the taxes, they simply packed up and left....
So yeah, in part the blame lies with the lenders too.
But the concept of "socialism" being something new to America is a little late.
After all, the Social Security Act was signed before WWII, and that's a perfect example of "social engineering" at work, or not working, depending if you have to try and survive on it.
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There is plenty of blame to go around, so that just about all in Washington has a little dirt on their hands. The blame game is amazing tho. I listened in on yesterday's opening comments by the esteemed Congressman from California and it is obvious that all blame is being laid on the door of the "past 8 years." Today was more of the same.
Personally, I have called my representative and senator, asking for a balanced budget amendment immediately. Isnt it time we set a good example in Washington about how to run an organization? Has anyone noted that California now needs a $7B bailout? We are now tossing around $1B as if it were a pillow.
I am very concerned about where this is heading. I follow finance and the markets with the same amatuer level as railroading and the past year has been just a mess. Now it is a mess out of control. Today we nationalized Commercial Paper. The Fed is now buying short term corporate debt. I cant say that in the short term it isnt a bad idea. It is definately setting a very very poor example and will no doubt be followed by other such nationalizations.
Hold on, it will be a rough ride.
Regarding Mr. Phillips ... I always read him, sometime agree with him. Remember, he has been a Washington reporter. He will deliver his point of view, as an editorialist.
I agree with the poster (truck driver) about the balance between too much and too little regulation. We just cant seem to find the right balance. Great point.
Ed, I agree with you as the lending got way out of hand. However, the combination of Congress, Fannie/Freddie, Wall Street and others certainly was a perfect storm abrewin.
ed
Jumping GGEEEE Hosenpfefers, gone one day and the whole thing growd so big, where do I start? OK, Bucuryus, re: compettition between capitalism and public projects. There is a choice the public can make by voting for and or using the publicly funded projected or product or buying the capitialist's product or project. So, I think there is a competiton but it is really apples to oranges and not apples to apples: the public itself decides what they want and puts their money down. Oltmannd come up with another idea between the two, of which $1 spend witll put the most people to work. Of course if it puts me to work, its great. If it puts somebody else to work, only matters if they'll bring thier dollar back to me. Plus if he is asking which $1 is spent best, either for a train ride or to fix his house, the choice is what is best for you, what do you want to spend or have to spend your money on?
And yes, the problem with everything is not it itself but what people do with it to screw it up for the rest of us!
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