Positive Train Control - Federal Legislation Pending

[Railway Man]

I wonder if PTC wouldn't be a whole lot simpler if we had electronic air brakes. 

Technically speaking?  It makes absolutely no difference at all.  You have to configure for the worst-case braking distance anyway, just like you do in traditional wayside signal design.

RWM

Well, one of the UP's excuses was that the predictive breaking algorithms were too difficult to get the train to stop where you need it stopped.  I remember CP (or was it CN) wringing their hand over the same thing during the ATCS spec days.  It's not really a safety thing, but you might wind up creeping at very very low speed for quite a distance to get train tucked into a siding.  Now, you can wheel right up to the signal at the end of the siding.  Even with cab signal, you get restricting from the cut point up to the signal.

Prediction of stopping distance with ECP would involve fewer variables and should produce less variation in stopping distances.

Track transponders and wheel revolution counters resolve this issue.

RWM

[Railway Man]

Regarding the use of GPS as part of any PTC system, may I suggest reading this article.

 

GPS Spoofing

I would hope that any PTC system would include track transpoders and dead reckoning on top of GPS.

I can't speak for every architecture and manufacturer, but the systems we installed include all three.

RWM

[oltmannd]

Regarding the use of GPS as part of any PTC system, may I suggest reading this article.

 

GPS Spoofing

I would hope that any PTC system would include track transpoders and dead reckoning on top of GPS.

[oltmannd]

I wonder if PTC wouldn't be a whole lot simpler if we had electronic air brakes. 

Technically speaking?  It makes absolutely no difference at all.  You have to configure for the worst-case braking distance anyway, just like you do in traditional wayside signal design.

RWM

Well, one of the UP's excuses was that the predictive breaking algorithms were too difficult to get the train to stop where you need it stopped.  I remember CP (or was it CN) wringing their hand over the same thing during the ATCS spec days.  It's not really a safety thing, but you might wind up creeping at very very low speed for quite a distance to get train tucked into a siding.  Now, you can wheel right up to the signal at the end of the siding.  Even with cab signal, you get restricting from the cut point up to the signal.

Prediction of stopping distance with ECP would involve fewer variables and should produce less variation in stopping distances.

[beaulieu]

Regarding the use of GPS as part of any PTC system, may I suggest reading this article.

 

GPS Spoofing

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

This just in - and a big Thanks ! to "DMUinCT" for mentioning it elsewhere in the "Tonight's Senate Bailout Bill Contains Railroad Trackage Language" thread earlier this afternoon at 1:26 PM, which tipped me off to look for this:

"Senate OKs Rail Safety Bill That Includes Anticollision Measures"

From the Los Angeles Times "BOTTLENECK BLOG" today, at:

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/bottleneck/2008/10/news-flash-a-ra.html

NEWS FLASH: A rail safety bill that would mandate that passenger trains and some freight trains be equipped with sophisticated systems by 2015 to prevent collisions was approved by the U.S. Senate on a 74 to 24 vote in Washington D.C. on Wednesday evening. The bill passed the House of Representatives last week and supporters believe the margins in both houses make it veto-proof. [emphasis added]  The bill also provides more than $12 billion in funding to Amtrak over the next four-plus years. The Bush administration has expressed reservations over that aspect of the bill.

--Steve Hymon

- Paul North.

[Railway Man]

I wonder if PTC wouldn't be a whole lot simpler if we had electronic air brakes. 

Technically speaking?  It makes absolutely no difference at all.  You have to configure for the worst-case braking distance anyway, just like you do in traditional wayside signal design.

RWM

[alphas]

I read the wsj link and it looks to me that Senator Coburn doesn't have any problem with the safety aspects.  He just doesn't buy into the increased Amtrak funding and all the Federal funding going to DC Metro attached to the legislation.   I suspect most of the voters in OK will have no problem with his stance.   Anyway, if the railroad safety legislation is that important, then seperate it out and it will pass in days.

Given the current financial shape of the country, probably all of our senators and congressmen/women would be wise to hold off on any new funding that isn't absolutely needed right now.  And maybe if there were more elected fiscal hawks in DC the country wouldn't be having both its current problems as well as its tremendous long-term unfunded liabilities (SS, Medicare, Medicade, etc).     

[route_rock]

  Horse manure on the older locos. I had an SD40-2 with ETMS on it, and its older than that commuter loco. Whatever is all I have to say. When BNSF said the FRA says ETMS is great and loves it to try and get the unions scared into one man crew talks the FRA kindly told Mr Rose." We never siad that and dont EVER say we support something when we dont" HA HA.

  So far everyone hit the nail on the head, not 100% failsafe. the only place I can see stoppoing too short is bad is on a hill or area where getting a train restarted is going to cause problems.

  But stopping short? It is better to stop short and look like a fool then to go long and remove all doubt .

[oltmannd]

He managed to say almost nothing while making it sound like a lot. 

Some thoughts:

Stopping to short (outside of dangerous train handling) has safety implications. - Really?  Might not be best operationally, but can't possibly be unsafe.

Commuter locos not modern enought for PTC.  - Really?  What, no electronic air brake?  Lots of frt locos running around without it, too.  Commuter locos could probably get by with a much cruder method of predictive braking because train handling and train consist variables are much simpler.

All trials to date unsuccessful, but have hope for 3rd gen.  - Why?  And by the way, exactly what went wrong in trial #2.  (predictive braking mentioned as problem in trial #1)

I wonder if PTC wouldn't be a whole lot simpler if we had electronic air brakes.  The money paid out for the NS-CSX-CR deal would have equipped the whole US fleet with that!

[jeaton]

Dennis Duffy, UP's EVP Operations testified at the 9/23 Senate Hearing on the subject.  The link is to his prepared remarks.  I think he is clear about the state of the technology and the hangups to rollout.

http://www.uprr.com/newsinfo/attachments/media_kit/ptc/duffy.pdf

 

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

On the other hand, "This just in:" - from about an hour ago:

"Legislation that would mandate collision-avoidance systems for trains and boost funding for passenger rail service is being blocked by Republican Sen. Tom Coburn of Oklahoma, one of the Senate's leading fiscal hawks."

For all the details, see: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122237337593376137.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

For more on Sen. Frank Lautenberg's (N.J. - D) several pro-Amtrak and other railroad bills and provisions, see the "Bottleneck Blog" on the Los Angeles Times website at:

 http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/bottleneck/2008/09/rail-safety-bil.html

- Paul North.

[BaltACD]

     To be fair, I'd assume Congress is going to make the trucking industry develop a similar, very expensive system, for the good of the people.

Even better, tie it into the traffic signal system so if a truck is approaching a red light or a stop sign, it will automatically slow down....

And where they have installed 'Red Light Cameras' the incidence of rear end collisions has increased to levels far above any 'running the red' incidents that had occured at the intersections....be careful of what you ask for....you may get it...IN SPADES!

[Last Chance]

     To be fair, I'd assume Congress is going to make the trucking industry develop a similar, very expensive system, for the good of the people.

Even better, tie it into the traffic signal system so if a truck is approaching a red light or a stop sign, it will automatically slow down....

Ya know, that just might work..

 

No it will not. Not with all the random oppertunities for accidents, damage or other problems on approach, passage and leaving said intersection.

That robot truck will mash granny trying to catch a bus and it will not hear the screams. Or in certain parts of the north east give a bad person an oppertunity to jump onto the catwalk and slice the left hand airhose to steal the cargo.

I for one refuse to accept totally automatic vehicles unless they are absolutely seperated by any possible interaction with anything. Either 40 feet into the sky on a dedicated track or buried 50 feet or more below.

[trainfan1221]

     To be fair, I'd assume Congress is going to make the trucking industry develop a similar, very expensive system, for the good of the people.

Even better, tie it into the traffic signal system so if a truck is approaching a red light or a stop sign, it will automatically slow down....

Ya know, that just might work..

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

Well, the AAR evidently thinks that this bill has passed or is about to pass - see below, from its website at:

http://www.aar.org/Pressroom/PressReleases/2008/09/092408_Statement_on_railsafety_bill.aspx

However, other reports say that it is doubtful that the Senate will be able to concur in the conference committee's compromises by the anticipated recess at the end of this week for election campaigning - that shows us what's really most important, doesn't it ?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Statement by
Edward R. Hamberger, President and CEO
Association of American Railroads
On Passage of the Comprehensive Rail Safety Bill
 

Freight Railroads Commend Congressional Leadership on New Rail Safety Bill

WASHINGTON, September 24, 2008 - The railroad industry would like to commend the leadership of the Senate Commerce Committee and the House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee for the work they did in crafting a comprehensive and far-reaching rail safety bill.

Nothing is more important to the railroad industry than the safety of our employees and the communities we serve. Although 2007 was the industry's safest year in history, we recognize that there is always room for improvement. Provisions of the new safety legislation will help facilitate even more improvements in safety.

The legislation sets an aggressive deadline of 2015 for implementation of positive train control (PTC) across most of the rail network. The scope of the work remaining to be accomplished presents a challenge to both the supply industry and the railroads.

Nonetheless, the freight railroad industry is committed to doing everything it can to ensure that PTC is implemented effectively and safely. We will work with the Federal Railroad Administration and our partners in the transit community, at Amtrak, our suppliers and our customers to implement the mandate.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[BaltACD]

Total Congressional CYA .... and these same loons are involved with the financial crisis?

Where is the :vomit: emoticon?

[oltmannd]

I really don't get those changes to the hours of service laws. They fix the wrong thing!

The big problem is the unpredictability of call times and having guys work "against" their circadian rhythems.  You call a guy at 7AM today and 7PM tomorrow, you're fighting biology.  It is the huge "elephant in the room" that nobody's been willing to do much about.  Instead, they nibble around the edges.  A few more "show up" jobs.  A few districts with carded pools.  10 hrs rest at home terminals.  But nothing that actually fixes the problem.

Limiting the hrs per month won't do it either. It may be a good solution for the airlines - who don't recrew en route - but for the RRs, it fixes nothing.   It'll just make the pools bigger and adds to the away from home time and/or more deadheading.

I also don't get the concern about fatigue for the Metrolink engr who was working regular split shifts - and probably had regular days off.  What about the frt pool guy who gets called at 10AM, then 3PM, then 7PM, then 2AM.  He doesn't stand a chance of being at his best.  Working 5AM to 9PM, M-F,  with 4+hrs off for a nap mid day (including a place to take a nap and get a meal) pales in comparison....

[tree68]

     To be fair, I'd assume Congress is going to make the trucking industry develop a similar, very expensive system, for the good of the people.

Even better, tie it into the traffic signal system so if a truck is approaching a red light or a stop sign, it will automatically slow down....

[greyhounds]

Nothing is 100% perfect etms,ats & cab signals systems can and do fail.

 

Rodney

That be the point.

Write a law/regulation that requires 100% while nothing can be 100% and you create an impossible situtation that ensures nothing much gets done except for your own CYA.

The Federal Government is very good at this.

[Rodney Beck]

Nothing is 100% perfect etms,ats & cab signals systems can and do fail.

 

Rodney

[Murphy Siding]

     To be fair, I'd assume Congress is going to make the trucking industry develop a similar, very expensive system, for the good of the people.

[jeaton]

With regard to PTC, if you look at the link shown below, you will see that the FRA, the very government entity that should be leading the way to get a safe PTC system in place has actually done nothing in the way of research and development themselves, or providing any financial support for R&D efforts.

Instead, the FRA has said, in thousands and thousands of words to the effect, "You can develope and install processor based PTC systems on your own dime after you prove beyond any doubt that the system as and where installed will never fail.  Also, if you don't follow our rules and provide all the necessary documentation, we will slap you with civil fines per the attached table.

Don't get me wrong.  I am all for these things being reliable and safe, but it seems to me that performing and documenting the development and the testing on installation has to add millions to the cost of the system.  Is it all necessary?  If the system includes a failsafe process where if any part fails, things come to a stop or a slow crawl, is it necessary to guarantee and prove that it will never fail?

I could be totally off base but the whole thing looks like a CYA process, if not obsessive or paranoid.  The FRA won't take any chances that they might take a political hit for allowing something that might fail, and given the potential for fines and perhaps in a worst case, civil or criminal liability,  maybe developer and railroad personnel are reluctant to sign off. 

I don't know exactly how the new US Congressional Safety Bill is structured, but I'll bet it neatly fits in the category of "unfunded mandate".  Sometimes those thing are written as "Do it, or else..." with no "or else" written in the law.

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=7d8e0068e9bf53874eb8a24dbbf9eb01&rgn=div6&view=text&node=49:4.1.1.1.30.8&idno=49

 

[route_rock]

  ETMS is the only kind of PTC I have seen and its not 100%. Its still being tested and let me say one word to you. Lobbyist.2015? Ok thats 7 years away, will you remeber that this legislation is in play? What if its tabled to commitee? and never allowed back to see the light of day?

  Hours of service will never change unless its done right away. No BS debates, no " We need a commision to look in on this"or Table for further debate.Remember the one word I stated. In an older copy of mt BLET newsletter UP engineers, rank and file guys, were going NUTS about losing hours!!! Of course thats not all of us. I am all for sensible and sane working conditions.I am not one who likes to be a zombie or work with one.12 hours on and then 8 hours later your back at it. I know Mr Rose is not happy with crews over 12 hours and all the limbo time thats been racking up. Hes afraid of being told we can only work 10 hours and then off 10. Dear god he says, I will have to hire more people!! So guess whos lobbying this not to go into effect?You got it! The same people who are saying " We are worried about fatigue as well" sure they are. only been worried about it since steam days and still cant find a solution.

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

Well, since no one else posted it yet (as of a few minutes ago), here goes:

According to many news sources this morning - e.g., the Associated Press, see:

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gjqjFAWFWvi317oJXvAGReNmEQXAD93CPF6O0

or just search for recent articles on "rail safety" - the U.S. House and Senate have agreed on a bill that mandates that some form of positive train control be installed on most rail lines (just about all of them carry hazardous materials at some time, right ?) by 2015.

One article mentioned that the Feds will provide $50 million to help pay for it.  [If we consider that the U.S. rail network that would be subject to this is probably on the order of 50,000 miles, then that amounts to . . . about $1,000 per mile.  I'm sure that some of our members here - Railway Man, in particular - can comment on how insufficient that will be.]

Also, the Hours of Service law will apparently be amended to reduce the maximum per month from 400 (about 13.3 hours per day average) to 276 (about 9.2 hours per day average).  Didn't see when that will take effect, though.  Those of us interested in train service - get your applications ready !  There's going to be a huge need, I suspect.

More philosophically, this illustrates the kind of thing that can happen when people and institutions delay or postpone too long, and don't "get out in front of" making a needed change or decision.  Something inevitably and unavoidably happens to bring the issue to a head - here, it was the Chatsworth collision, in other contexts it could be weather (hurricanes), markets (financial meltdowns), competition, attacks, old age (nursing home), etc. - and the change or choice happens by force of some kind, not voluntarily.  Is this really the outcome that the rail industry wanted, and the way it was desired to come about ?  Wouldn't a voluntary implementation of some kind - with all of its attendant problems - have been better than this ?  So now what did the industry gain by procrastinating so long on this issue, and now having it forced down their throats by a couple of political demagogues ?  (Boxer and Feinstein definitely have that game nailed)  Once again, the industry is dragged kicking and screaming into the current century.  Something to think about and keep in mind for other future issues.

Responses - challenges, further thoughts, questions, comments, criticisms, suggestions, etc. anyone ?

- Paul North.