I find it frustrating that there is yet to appear no diagram to scale showing the location of the Chatsworth collision, signal towers, switches, station, etc.
There is also no information given on what safety and signal equipment was implemented trackside or in the respective locomotive cabs.
No information yet on what kind of CTC was in operation and what alarms were sounded when the Metrolink train passed a red and drove through the points onto the single track porition of the line.
No photo of the signal tower the Metrolink train apparently passed on a stop/red. It would be interesting to know what kind of signal it is, how many heads are displayed and how many lamps are in each head.
All of the above should have become available by this time. Instead, it seems it is being kept under wraps. One shouldn't have to wait a year or more to learn any of these facts now.
RJ Emery near Santa Fe, NM
Based on what I've seen and read so far, they still have a lot of ground to cover. I'm not implying that illegal substances were used when I point out that toxicology reports take time, too. In a situation such as this, discretion is the better part of valor. When all the facts are in, they'll talk.
This isn't like a crime investigation where they let stuff slip hoping the bad guy will bite on it or someone will put two and two together and blow someone in.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
rjemery wrote:I find it frustrating that there is yet to appear no diagram to scale showing the location of the Chatsworth collision, signal towers, switches, station, etc.There is also no information given on what safety and signal equipment was implemented trackside or in the respective locomotive cabs.No information yet on what kind of CTC was in operation and what alarms were sounded when the Metrolink train passed a red and drove through the points onto the single track porition of the line. No photo of the signal tower the Metrolink train apparently passed on a stop/red. It would be interesting to know what kind of signal it is, how many heads are displayed and how many lamps are in each head.All of the above should have become available by this time. Instead, it seems it is being kept under wraps. One shouldn't have to wait a year or more to learn any of these facts now.
On the railfan website Trainorders.com there have been diagrams posted, pictures of the wreckage and the recovery operation, and photographs of the signal involved, taken not within the last few days, but since the siding was extended showing the current setup. There are multiple threads, some with more than 100 postings so it can take a bit of effort to find the diagrams and photos being discussed, also some are on the Western board and some are on the Passenger Board. You can look at the first page of any discussion without being a member, and should be able to see the diagrams, but you can only see thumbnails of the photgraphs.
Let's see if I have this straight...
After 25 plus deaths, millions of dollars of damage, all the pain and suffering these people have gone through, you are "frustrated" that the NTSB and other agencies haven't given you enough information and photographs to play "what if" with?
So what would make you happy, a few photos of the engineers corpse, burned and crushed...maybe a few close-ups of the crash post in the Metro locomotive bent backwards...maybe a photo of all the body bags stacked up in the morgue, so you can have a real accurate body count?
What do you need all the info for?
So you can recreate the wreck with your model trains, and maybe solve the "mystery" of what happened before the NTSB does?
Here is a clue...the Metro Link engineer ran a red signal...people died...isn't that enough to amuse you and relieve your frustration?
Here is another clue...I would bet the NTSB, the FRA, Metrolink and UP, along with the engineers widow and kids, and all the survivors, right about now could really care less if you are frustrated.
Here is what is really frustrating...the bodies haven't even been released, are barely cold, and a bunch of morbid people start whining that they haven't been given all the details they feel they are entitled to, simply to satisfy their curiosity and "frustration".
Not trying to pick on you personally, but folks need to find another hobby besides trying to second guess the "why" behind people's deaths....
rjemery wrote: I find it frustrating that there is yet to appear no diagram to scale showing the location of the Chatsworth collision, signal towers, switches, station, etc.There is also no information given on what safety and signal equipment was implemented trackside or in the respective locomotive cabs.No information yet on what kind of CTC was in operation and what alarms were sounded when the Metrolink train passed a red and drove through the points onto the single track porition of the line. No photo of the signal tower the Metrolink train apparently passed on a stop/red. It would be interesting to know what kind of signal it is, how many heads are displayed and how many lamps are in each head.All of the above should have become available by this time. Instead, it seems it is being kept under wraps. One shouldn't have to wait a year or more to learn any of these facts now.
23 17 46 11
If you have access to Google Earth, the photograph shows the current arrangement. Turn on the street names overlay.
Plug "Heather Lee Lane, Chatsworth, CA" into the search box. The clearly visible curve in the tracks slightly NE of that street is the site of the collision. Follow the tracks to the south and if you zoom in you can clearly see the switch at CP Topanga. The Intermediate Signal of the siding is on the south side of the grade crossing at Lassen Street, and the station parking lot is on the east side of the tracks immediately north of Lassen Street, with the station building about a block and a half to the north. The Eastern most track is the mainline. CP Bernsen the other end of the siding is clearly visible just west of the DeSoto Avenue grade crossing.
The signal type used is a Union Switch & Signal TR-2 type favored by the SP. Other users of this signal were the Rock Island and New York Central.
Signal picture
Except with only one signal head in this case.The picture I linked too is the same design, but not the actual signal.
It is difficult for me to accept that a rational, responsible and professional engineer would deliberately run through a red signal. Even if he did so by accident, as soon as he pushed through the points with the resulting jarring, he would have had to known something was amiss. Were there no cab indicators to show the condition of the last signal? No alarms going off in the cab to indicate a stop signal was passed?
I am convinced by the time the stop signal was passed, the engineer was already in some way incapacitated. If so, why did not the dead man's control activate?
Was this a freight line never properly upgraded to handle (Metrolink and Amtrak) passenger traffic?
Enough information should have already been determined and made available to narrow the possibilities. Meanwhile, state and federal legislators are moving with lightning speed to mandate the spending of billions on safety improvements that may neither be necessary or may prove counterproductive.
rjemery wrote:I find it frustrating that there is yet to appear no diagram to scale showing the location of the Chatsworth collision, signal towers, switches, station, etc.
Why? It is not like you are a member of the NTSB investigating the crash.
rjemery wrote:It is difficult for me to accept that a rational, responsible and professional engineer would deliberately run through a red signal. Even if he did so by accident, as soon as he pushed through the points with the resulting jarring, he would have had to known something was amiss.
Call me cynical, but I am almost willing to bet you have never run through a switch or been in a 3000HP (or more) locomotive as it accelerates from a stop. If so, then you really have no idea what the engineer would have felt or heard as he ran through that switch, you are just assuming, which may not be anywhere near accurate.
rjemery wrote:Were there no cab indicators to show the condition of the last signal? No alarms going off in the cab to indicate a stop signal was passed?
I think this has been discussed in other threads.
rjemery wrote:Was this a freight line never properly upgraded to handle (Metrolink and Amtrak) passenger traffic?
Appearently the line can handle freight and passenger trains since it has been doing so since it was built, with few accidents. Also, the FRA has not put a stop to freight or passenger trains.
"No soup for you!" - Yev Kassem (from Seinfeld)
rjemery wrote: It is difficult for me to accept that a rational, responsible and professional engineer would deliberately run through a red signal. Even if he did so by accident, as soon as he pushed through the points with the resulting jarring, he would have had to known something was amiss. Were there no cab indicators to show the condition of the last signal? No alarms going off in the cab to indicate a stop signal was passed?I am convinced by the time the stop signal was passed, the engineer was already in some way incapacitated. If so, why did not the dead man's control activate?Was this a freight line never properly upgraded to handle (Metrolink and Amtrak) passenger traffic? Enough information should have already been determined and made available to narrow the possibilities. Meanwhile, state and federal legislators are moving with lightning speed to mandate the spending of billions on safety improvements that may neither be necessary or may prove counterproductive.
I realize that you're upset. Everybody is upset by this. But just chill.
The investigation will determine what happened and it will be properly reported and made available when complete. The politicians will do their ususal grandstanding - they always do.
In the mean time, it has been pretty well esablished that the engineer of the Metrolink train ran through restricting signals and through a switch that was set against him. We don't know why he would do this and maybe the investigation will say otherwise.
In the meantime, you can't conduct your own investigation and draw your own conclusions.
I heard "The Rule Book Is Written In Blood" early on. There will be changes because of this. The changes will improve safety, just like the changes from previous wrecks have done. But total safety is impossible in anything. People die in bathtubs. And in Space Shuttles.
rjemery wrote:It is difficult for me to accept that a rational, responsible and professional engineer would deliberately run through a red signal. Even if he did so by accident, as soon as he pushed through the points with the resulting jarring, he would have had to known something was amiss. Were there no cab indicators to show the condition of the last signal? No alarms going off in the cab to indicate a stop signal was passed?
To put this in perspective take a look at the 3rd Quarter 2008 report on SPADs for the UK (England, Scotland, Wales) they had 79 SPADS (Signal Passed At Danger) (Passed a Red Signal) in a 3 month period. No disasters occurred but three of the occurrances were judged as dangerous.
UK SPAD Report
I doubt he was incapacitated. Read this story by Al Krug, a very experienced BNSF Engineer. It concerns a freight Engineer, but some things apply to all.
Engineer Mindset
There are thousands of miles of track equipped like this with passenger trains operating over them daily. Some lines have even simplier systems.
For a good look at what happened see this YouTube video.
it shows a train traveling the crash area from Chatworth station to way past tunnels.
the crash actually happened 25 seconds past the signal wherethe 3 containers sit at right hand side.
http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=CNuzZI-7h4U&feature=related
Now run it again and see where train was 1 minute before impact, where alleged text messaging took place.
rjemery wrote:It is difficult for me to accept that a rational, responsible and professional engineer would deliberately run through a red signal. Even if he did so by accident, as soon as he pushed through the points with the resulting jarring, he would have had to known something was amiss. Were there no cab indicators to show the condition of the last signal? No alarms going off in the cab to indicate a stop signal was passed?I am convinced by the time the stop signal was passed, the engineer was already in some way incapacitated. If so, why did not the dead man's control activate?Was this a freight line never properly upgraded to handle (Metrolink and Amtrak) passenger traffic? Enough information should have already been determined and made available to narrow the possibilities. Meanwhile, state and federal legislators are moving with lightning speed to mandate the spending of billions on safety improvements that may neither be necessary or may prove counterproductive.
dead man peddles are a thing of the past..they no longer exist on new power and have just been phased out of all old power.. the new alerter systems are much better and cant be jammed with a flag stick..
running thorugh a switch will not do anything to the locomotive as far as a feel or even any extra noise to know you ran thourgh a switch that wasnt lined for you..
after watching the youtube video that was posted..even IF the engineer would have had some kind of warning that he just ran a red signal..he wouldnt have had much time to react.. the freigth train wouldnt have been able to stop in time..and neither would he.. there still would have been a wreck regardless.. it just happend to at a point where the trains where just to close to warn them to stop in time.. should it have happend with the frieght train was a few miles away...nothing would have happend.. they both would have been warned and the engineer that ran the signal would be fired.. timeing is everything and things can go very wrong very fast if you mess up..case in point with this wreck...
as for the details.. they will all come out in the end..train speeds..distance from the last CP signal where the crash happend.. the signals aspects that both trains passed prior to impact.. to the last time there was a signal maintaner out to check the system.. it will all be there..and in due time.. the only "facts" that you are going to get from the media are speculation and the facts that come out as they discover them.. but only untill the next news cycle and something else happens to push this off the front pages.. things take time to rule out...
csx engineer
The LA Times, on Sunday or Monday, had a very good map of the rails from where they begin a turn from west to north near De Soto Street; to where the siding starts just past De Soto; to where the station is located on the N-S section of track; to where the siding ends a mile or so north of the station; to where the curve to the west and the tunnel begins. All the local streets were shown, as was the position of all the signals. Notations showed which way the various signals were oriented (mostly in both directions). It looked, to me, like a pretty good depiction of what I believe a CTC signal array would look like.
It clarified a lot of things and, after seeing that, it is pretty hard to believe in any cause other than driver error or signal failure.
Jack
Dutchrailnut wrote:For a good look at what happened see this YouTube video. It shows a train traveling the crash area from Chatworth station to way past tunnels. the crash actually happened 25 seconds past the signal wherethe 3 containers sit at right hand side.http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=CNuzZI-7h4U&feature=relatedNow run it again and see where train was 1 minute before impact, where alleged text messaging took place.
rjemery wrote:I don't believe the text messaging claim. From other cab ride observations, I don't see how the engineer could drive the train and be text messaging at the same time.
Still, if he was trying to do both at the same time (which, I admit, is yet to be established), I think that answers the riddle how to do both at once-he couldn't.
Jack_S wrote:The LA Times, on Sunday or Monday, had a very good map of the rails from where they begin a turn from west to north near De Soto Street; to where the siding starts just past De Soto; to where the station is located on the N-S section of track; to where the siding ends a mile or so north of the station; to where the curve to the west and the tunnel begins. All the local streets were shown, as was the position of all the signals. Notations showed which way the various signals were oriented (mostly in both directions). It looked, to me, like a pretty good depiction of what I believe a CTC signal array would look like.It clarified a lot of things and, after seeing that, it is pretty hard to believe in any cause other than driver error or signal failure.
Kevin C. Smith wrote:Still, if he was trying to do both at the same time (which, I admit, is yet to be established), I think that answers the riddle how to do both at once-he couldn't.
edblysard wrote: rjemery wrote: I find it frustrating that there is yet to appear no diagram to scale showing the location of the Chatsworth collision, signal towers, switches, station, etc. There is also no information given on what safety and signal equipment was implemented trackside or in the respective locomotive cabs.No information yet on what kind of CTC was in operation and what alarms were sounded when the Metrolink train passed a red and drove through the points onto the single track porition of the line. No photo of the signal tower the Metrolink train apparently passed on a stop/red. It would be interesting to know what kind of signal it is, how many heads are displayed and how many lamps are in each head.All of the above should have become available by this time. Instead, it seems it is being kept under wraps. One shouldn't have to wait a year or more to learn any of these facts now. Let's see if I have this straight...After 25 plus deaths, millions of dollars of damage, all the pain and suffering these people have gone through, you are "frustrated" that the NTSB and other agencies haven't given you enough information and photographs to play "what if" with?So what would make you happy, a few photos of the engineers corpse, burned and crushed...maybe a few close-ups of the crash post in the Metro locomotive bent backwards...maybe a photo of all the body bags stacked up in the morgue, so you can have a real accurate body count?What do you need all the info for?So you can recreate the wreck with your model trains, and maybe solve the "mystery" of what happened before the NTSB does?Here is a clue...the Metrolink engineer ran a red signal...people died...isn't that enough to amuse you and relieve your frustration?Here is another clue...I would bet the NTSB, the FRA, Metrolink and UP, along with the engineers widow and kids, and all the survivors, right about now could really care less if you are frustrated.Here is what is really frustrating...the bodies haven't even been released, are barely cold, and a bunch of morbid people start whining that they haven't been given all the details they feel they are entitled to, simply to satisfy their curiosity and "frustration".Not trying to pick on you personally, but folks need to find another hobby besides trying to second guess the "why" behind people's deaths....
rjemery wrote: I find it frustrating that there is yet to appear no diagram to scale showing the location of the Chatsworth collision, signal towers, switches, station, etc. There is also no information given on what safety and signal equipment was implemented trackside or in the respective locomotive cabs.No information yet on what kind of CTC was in operation and what alarms were sounded when the Metrolink train passed a red and drove through the points onto the single track porition of the line. No photo of the signal tower the Metrolink train apparently passed on a stop/red. It would be interesting to know what kind of signal it is, how many heads are displayed and how many lamps are in each head.All of the above should have become available by this time. Instead, it seems it is being kept under wraps. One shouldn't have to wait a year or more to learn any of these facts now.
Here is a clue...the Metrolink engineer ran a red signal...people died...isn't that enough to amuse you and relieve your frustration?
I saw the original post here last night, and decided to sleep on it. And, as usual, Ed has put most of my thoughts into words far better than I ever could.
If inquiring minds want to know, then inquiring minds can go through the information that's out there. I've seen the Google maps, the videos, the published reports, and just about everything else addressed in your questions. We aren't yet privy to the information captured by the Metrolink speed recorder, the in-cab recorder, or the UP video camera. Let the real investigators look first, please!
People have already lost jobs over releasing too much, too soon on this very accident.
And now, this stuff about the line not being equipped to handle passenger trains. The people who have been doing just that for over a century will really appreciate hearing that. So do we in Metra territory, who have very similar operations in places.
In your persistence, you seem to have ignored answers provided by experienced railroaders concerning the safety devices used inside the cab. Alertors alert you, and all it takes is a touch or a movement of some control to silence them.
And these investigations normally take years. I'm sure you'll see results when everyone else does. I can wait.
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
Dan
CNW 6000 wrote:As was said: when the facts are in they'll be released. Other than that, what legitimate need to know details do you have?
It occurs to me that this is a request typical of the "right now" generation - used to getting instant results/gratification...
rjemery wrote: Where was the dead man's control located? Was it hand or foot operated?
Have you not read anything that anybody has written in this post
See below-
csxengineer98 wrote: dead man peddles are a thing of the past..they no longer exist on new power and have just been phased out of all old power.. the new alerter systems are much better and cant be jammed with a flag stick..csx engineer
Beleive it or not, on the lcomotives i know, you could make a dam sandwich while running if you wanted!!
I don't see anything wrong with wanting answers even without having an official reason. The official investigation and public curiosity have a kind of intangible linkage that is beneficial overall. And beyond that, the general public should be concerned about railroad safety because they have a direct interest in it. They ride the trains and will likely be paying for the safety improvements that will be a direct result of this crash.
Investigations do not want to jump to conclusions, so they must take the time to process all the details and possible explanations. At the same time, if there appears to be gross negligence as a cause, waiting for the investigation to run its course might look like a cover-up. And cover-ups frequently become a greater wrong than the wrong that they cover up.
With this wreck, I am surprised that we have been told as much as we have so early. Today, a new detail has been released. The engineers of both trains had 4-5 seconds in which to react by setting their brakes from the moment they saw each other's train to the moment of impact. The freight engineer set his brakes, and the Metrolink engineer did not.
Also interesting is the fact that Senator Dianne Feinstein has blamed the railroad industry for the wreck for their failure to install safety equipment that would have prevented it. I guess she is not waiting for the official results of the investigation. She went on to say that if the industry does not install it in the wake of this wreck, it will amount to criminal negligence.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/text/2008184498_traintest17.html
Dutchrailnut wrote: For a good look at what happened see this YouTube video. it shows a train traveling the crash area from Chatworth station to way past tunnels. the crash actually happened 25 seconds past the signal wherethe 3 containers sit at right hand side. http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=CNuzZI-7h4U&feature=relatedNow run it again and see where train was 1 minute before impact, where alleged text messaging took place.
Very informative! Here is another one of a northbound Amtrak arriving at Chatsworth--this one clearly shows the previous two signals, the CP at the start of the siding and the intermediate signal just before the station. Jamie
CLICK HERE FOR THE CSX DIXIE LINE BLOG
rjemery wrote: Kevin C. Smith wrote:Still, if he was trying to do both at the same time (which, I admit, is yet to be established), I think that answers the riddle how to do both at once-he couldn't.On my cell phone, text messaging is a two handed operation. Where was the dead man's control located? Was it hand or foot operated? There was no need for the engineer to keep his hand on the throttle once the desired speed was reached? He didn't need to keep his hands on anything to keep the train moving?It is for those reasons that I do not accept the text messaging theory. Even if he had a cell phone on him, perhaps he did text message when the train was stopped at the Chatsworth station, but unlikely afterwards when the train was in motion.If he was text messaging and took his hands off the controls, it would have had to been the most reckless action of all time by any engineer anywhere. Which is why I assign a very low probability to this explanation as an outcome.
Let me put it to you this way.... There is NO DEADMAN PEADLE OR THAT TYPE DEVISE ON TRAINS and again THERE IS NO DEADMAN PEADLE.... now you can set the throttle in notch 5 and make a sandwhich i can text on my phone 1 handed and still run a engine. its real simple and the train keeps going while it happens. there is times i get up out of the seat go around the controll stand and get a bottle of water and just streach. it like getting out of your car and walking around only you dont go as far.the conclusions you come up with is for someone who has never been in a engine also as far as running thru a switch you can get the same senario and same feeling yourself to feel what its like to run thru a switch just driving your car or truck, and even a bycicle. here is how its done get in car and drive over a leaf. did you feel that??? then why would the engineer. we feel jointed rail more so than a run thru switch. the man lost focus on running his train and paid dearly. and that im sorry for and the other victims of this tradgedy. but in no way should you deem it nessesary that you deserve or demand to have more information than what is out there, and trust me after the fatality accidents ive been in you are the least of these people concerns. just be happy with what has been afforded to you.
What part of "there is no dead man's control anymore," don't you understand? That's been posted on here and other threads.
You don't need to keep your hands on the controls all the time. The only time I have my hand on a control is when I'm making a change or am anticipatting making a change to something. The problem with cell phones, text or talking, electronic games, books and newspapers etc is that your mind is being distracted. For all we know, his track bulletins could've fallen on the floor and he bent over to pick them up or he spilled a cup of coffee all over himself at the wrong time.
The biggest thing is that he evidently forgot to approach the next signal prepared to stop until he saw that signal. No one will ever know with 100% certainty why he did what he did because he can no longer tell us.
Jeff
THANKS
I didnt know that video was out there, that really puts things into perspective.
I understand completely now why the NTSB was saying the engineers had almost zero responce time, latest news was that the UP engineer didnt see the Metrolink until 4 seconds before the colision, one second responce and put it into emergency 2 seconds before impact, apparently the Metrolink didnt even go into emergency, I wonder if the engineer of the Metrolink was somehow so distracted he completely missed the signal, rolling thru a closed switch forcing the points which according to the experts is very noticable event, and didnt even see the UP train? How this is possible I dont know, maybe he dropped his phone? Either that or he was incapacitated by some health problem, unless the autopsy shows some medical problem or the black boxes, UP's on-board videos, or phone records show something, we may never actually know what happened.
Have fun with your trains
When they were in use, the deadman peddle was so easily overridden as to make the feature almost useless. One of my few rides was on an E unit pulling an IC passenger train. At one point the engineer left his seat and stepped into the nose compartment, I guess to use the "facility". It was then I noticed that his grip was sitting on the peddle. Of course, there was a fireman who continued to watch the track ahead, but he remained in his seat on the left side.
As to the release of information, it seems to me that the NTSB is releasing key pieces of information as soon as they are sure they are sure they have them right. Obviously, this is an extremely high profile accident, and while the NTSB usually does not have much to say before a final report is issued, in this case they are certainly reporting on their process and progress as well as letting findings be known as soon as they are turned up.
"We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics
Next comes one of two stock answers:
1. I am entitled to anything I want NOW!
2. It is a violation of my contitutional rights (somehow that I never have figured that one out).
In this litigous society my only answer would be, "no comment".
Obviously the original poster has no concept that the NTSB looks into every possible cause before issuing a report that usually takes a year or longer to produce. Human factors, signal conditions, track conditions, weather, sun angles, work history of the engineer, equipment status followed by engineering calculations to determine force of impact, cause of death, how to prevent a reoccurence and a host of other items. The purpose of all this is to try to prevent a second occurence not provide people with information as fast as possible. I find it a little sick that someone would have interest in that instead of respecting the loss of life and the professionalism of those trying to figure out what happened.
Hey, fellas, the OP by now has several iterations of the most acerbic response posted in reply. Let's give it a rest. If he won't accept what is fed back to him, just move on and leave his follow-on questions unanswered. There are bigger fish to fry today.
-Crandell
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