Hit in Hocky, or Bombs on a Madrid Train

[Anonymous]

Well I haven't heard much about the hockey hit lately. The train bombing is still getting some press though. And the new bomb found in France is too.

[edblysard]

Hi Kev,
I know quite well that these nits are perfectly willing, in fact, wanting to die for their cause.
But how about the people around them, who are helping them hide?
Doubt every person in the middle east hates America, or the westren way of life but I bet every one of them would hate having us occupy their country.
Winning their hearts and minds is a fine idea, and I am all for it, but instilling the fear of Uncle Sam's vengence along with it would help too.
The Brits wrote the book on dark operations, but even with all the resources available, we made the mistake on the WMD in Iraq.
And I doubt we would make a real dent in find these guys through sheer intelligence opperations.
The culture is too far removed from ours, and unless someone there takes us up on a big reward, and turns them over to us,the CIA, NSA, and all the three letter crowd will never find them.
And while we are busy winning their hearts and minds, how many more World Trade Centers will we tolerate while we wait?
And I dont doubt for a minute that they will strike us, here at home, again.
Its not a matter of if, its a matter of when and where.
And when they do, retailation should be swift, and harsh.
These people respect strength more that any other quality.
Show them we mean business, and make sure they know what for, and they will think hard about helping these nits any more.
There is no simple way out of this mess.
True, there is not one solution to it all, but a combination of force along with giving them a example of what America has to offer might work.


Ed

QUOTE: Originally posted by 45144

Ed,

We've talked about this offline and most of the time we're on the same wavelength but these guys don't care if you hit them hard or if you hit their families hard. Surely the real answer is what we did in Malaysia, you win their hearts and minds and support for the nutters dies - wasn't that the lesson of Vietnam

Sorry guys, I'm not American but I sure am proud of the way the British army handles these problems (I suppose the RAF and Navy do some stuff too)

You have to remember that rationality is yesterday - if the guy wants to die and take you with him pointing a gun at his head doesn't make him think twice.

Lets stick together on this

All the best

Kev

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by 45144

Ed,

We've talked about this offline and most of the time we're on the same wavelength but these guys don't care if you hit them hard or if you hit their families hard. Surely the real answer is what we did in Malaysia, you win their hearts and minds and support for the nutters dies - wasn't that the lesson of Vietnam

Sorry guys, I'm not American but I sure am proud of the way the British army handles these problems (I suppose the RAF and Navy do some stuff too)

You have to remember that rationality is yesterday - if the guy wants to die and take you with him pointing a gun at his head doesn't make him think twice.

Lets stick together on this

All the best

Kev

Hey, Kev- i'm half and half

I'm Not at all happy with the way Britian handeled themselves, The simply Went along with the USA

Now for my anaology, Do you have to do everyhting your friend does, if your Friend uses impared judgement, are you quick to suit?

The ability, or the lack of ability to think for ones self, seems abundantly present in Tony Blair's Party. I understand that he felt that is was a just cause..

If i was in Britian, i wouldn't vote the leighbour party back in-

Not a topless women's chance in antarctica.

What utterly petrifies me is the fact that, Question's weren't even asked, it was simply YES! we'll do it.

Thats not the way you do things, you respect the people of that nation, and according to a poll, if Tony blair held an election tommorow, he'd be Toast

So i guess that means he did a very good job at respecting the people of his nation, right?

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by 45144

Ed,

We've talked about this offline and most of the time we're on the same wavelength but these guys don't care if you hit them hard or if you hit their families hard. Surely the real answer is what we did in Malaysia, you win their hearts and minds and support for the nutters dies - wasn't that the lesson of Vietnam

Sorry guys, I'm not American but I sure am proud of the way the British army handles these problems (I suppose the RAF and Navy do some stuff too)

You have to remember that rationality is yesterday - if the guy wants to die and take you with him pointing a gun at his head doesn't make him think twice.

Lets stick together on this

All the best

Kev

Win their hearts and minds and in the mean time unleash a brigade of Gurkhas and ruthlessly kick the snot out of the Gs at every opportunity. The idea is not to do it half way. Resolve must be met with at least an equal and preferrably greater degree of resolve. It wasn't just the turning the sea in which they swam against them through community service (hearts and minds), it was also creating stiff penalties for those that supported them and actively seeking the bad guys out and engaging them with a complete lack of regard for the bad guys well being so to speak. I am a big fan of the Brit military by and large. Very professional bunch. Northern Ireland though is a perfect example of how a profesional military, anybody's not just the US or UK or Israel, is ill equipped and ill suited to conduct police operations.

[Anonymous]

True. The best we can do is minimize the opportunity these twisted individuals have to damage us and our way of life. That means better security at home and hitting them abroad where we can to keep them off balance and illustrate to the rest of the world that those who harbor these folks will have a price to pay. The Brits have long been great with covert ops.The SAS, SBS and Commando are legendary. However, one need only look to Northern Ireland to see that solutions to big problems are always long term solutions. The U.S. has done well with certain ops, the SEALS, Special Forces, Marines and their intelligence counterparts, unfortunately, with our very open society this has not always been possible and certain decisions made in the last couple decades have negatively affected our intelligence capability. Hopefully, the efforts being made now will to some degree remedy that shortcoming. Of course, there is no magic solution. Over time, one can hope that may of the "average" people in the muslim world will come to realize the benefits of freedom and a free society. To say coming to that point could be tumultuous is probably an understatement. In the real world nothing comes for free...

LC

QUOTE: Originally posted by 45144

Ed,

We've talked about this offline and most of the time we're on the same wavelength but these guys don't care if you hit them hard or if you hit their families hard. Surely the real answer is what we did in Malaysia, you win their hearts and minds and support for the nutters dies - wasn't that the lesson of Vietnam

Sorry guys, I'm not American but I sure am proud of the way the British army handles these problems (I suppose the RAF and Navy do some stuff too)

You have to remember that rationality is yesterday - if the guy wants to die and take you with him pointing a gun at his head doesn't make him think twice.

Lets stick together on this

All the best

Kev

[Anonymous]

Ed,

We've talked about this offline and most of the time we're on the same wavelength but these guys don't care if you hit them hard or if you hit their families hard. Surely the real answer is what we did in Malaysia, you win their hearts and minds and support for the nutters dies - wasn't that the lesson of Vietnam

Sorry guys, I'm not American but I sure am proud of the way the British army handles these problems (I suppose the RAF and Navy do some stuff too)

You have to remember that rationality is yesterday - if the guy wants to die and take you with him pointing a gun at his head doesn't make him think twice.

Lets stick together on this

All the best

Kev

[Anonymous]

Nuke the Whole world?

that does sound like a Soviet plot, But as they say in the soviet

In Soviet Russia, You kill Bomb!

It's too late to pull out of Iraq, I was going to put a Sex analogy in here, but i'll skip that, For as long as we know, the USa could be in Iraq for the next 10 years and to quote George W. bush, They could be spending the next 10 years on "The big success" he has created.

Now according to CBC and CTV, it's not as glorious as he makes it sound, but those are his choice of words, not mine.

I'm not completely sure ousting G.W bush is such a great thing, Spain ousted their Conservative Government for a Socialist party.

Do you honestly know what that means??

LEFT--(-3)--------------(-2)------------(-1)-------0-----------1-----------2--------------------3-----RIGHT

So that is your basic political scheme:
LEt's start from left and go to right:
-3: Communisim
-2.5 (I couldn't fit this one is) Socialisim
-2 Social Democratic
-1 Liberal
0 Neutral, Center, politically A
1: Liberal conservatisim
2: conservarives
3: Facisim

Now let me tell you, It is extremely Rare for any country to move more thne 2 numbers in any direction for any election, Conservatives will always be conservatives, Liberals will always be liberals.

Spain had a government that, politically was about 2 and they moved to a government that is around -2.5. that is a change of 4.5, And plitical History

You had a government, The conservatives, that are hell bent on Tradition, not very progressive, and pretty much in keeping close ties with the past, and not making Radical movements.

You vote in a left wing party. That are Radicalists, Couldn't give a roaring rip about Tradition, Extremely progressive, and couldn't care less about what ahppened yesturday?

don't get me worng, Left is better if your looking for a sound Economy, Because experts will tell you, Looking in history for solutions on how to solve an economy in Crisis, as that lamb said on aladdin: b-a-a-a-a-aa-d

what was my point...uhhh...

Oh yeah, Ousting George W bush, May prove to be Chotic in a completely other sense, the problem is, We as a people don't know what Other problems there could be after GW takes off.

Dopn't get me worng, I Despise the man.

But is ousrting him the right thing to do?

We will end up opening another can of worms, that no one has even contemplated yet. and no one can even begin to imagine the outcome, I don't care if you (Not you, but you as in general terms) have a PHD in political scienec and can tell everyhting that is going to happen

No one knows what could even be the the resuslts of a new Gov't comming in.

This reminds me of the Railaorad in 1920: Xome accidnets in Canada where head on, and all of them, the Trains saw each other heading for each other, but by the time they saw each other- too late.

Yeah, oh Sh** is right!

Were not going to even realize theres a problem, when a new governemnt is elected until, oh Sh&^ it's too late.

Thats the problem i see.

[edblysard]

Hi Oliver,
Nuke the whole world...
Scary, but a lot of people dont know just how close we, as a race, came to doing just that.
America and the Soviet Union practiced a little game referred to as MAD,

Mutually Assured Destruction.

In its simplest form, what that boiled down to was, we both had enough nucelar weapons to garantee that, no matter who shot first, in the end, we both would have enough weapons in the air to assure the complete destruction of our opponent.

And America had enough weapons both land based, and at sea in subs, to promise that, even if the Soviets wiped us out with the first round, at a random point in time, we would launch enough of the "hidden" weapons to assure the total destruction of their country, as I am sure, the Soviets did also.

The scary part is, after the fall of the Sovit Union, we discovered that by the late 1970s, early 1980s, we had out built, out spent and over armed ourselves beyond the Soviet Union on a three to one basis.

But for all theose years, our intelligence services had been telling us, "The Russians have this," or "they just built a new sub", all kinds of dire warnings about how mighty and big the Soviets arsenal was, when in fact, the stuff didnt exsist in anywhere near the numbers we were lead to belive.

National defense, based on educated guesses, which in turn were based on intelligence that had no way to be confirmed, lead America to become the largest holder of Weapons of Mass Destruction.

And a bunch of guys, armed with boxcutters and pocket knives pretty much defeated all the subs, all the missles, all the B-1 bombers, by entering American air space and turning three commerical airliners into very effective weapons.

Leave Iraq?
Its too late for that, if we did, not only would we create even more hatred among the people there, for leaving them is a destroyed economy and ruined country, but we would leave the door open for any man like Saddam, who had the will, to take power again.

And they would glady follow him, too, if he got the lights back on, and told them what they wanted to hear.

Dans right, we stomped them pretty hard, so now, after they signed a constitution of sorts, its time for us to help them make it work.
They can rule themselves, after all, the Briti***hought we, America, would self destruct when we declared independence from them.

Terror is new to Americans, but not the rest of the world.
Dan pointed out that most of us couldnt even find Spain on a map, which was true, anything that happened outside of our country was "over there."
Even when such acts were committed here, we failed to really grasp what they were.

McVey was referred to in the press as the Okalahome Bomber, not the Okalahoma Terrorist, yet thats exactlly what he and his buddy were, terrorist, just home grown ones.

Attempting to solve political and social problems via terror has been going on since time began, we just have ignored it, because it didnt happen here, in America.

So, now its our time in the barrel, and we have very limited choices.
Sit here, keep ignoring it, and hope it dosnt happen again, or do something about it.

Even with Americas tremendous wealth, we couldnt financally solve the probmlems that cause these people to resort to terror to make their point.

Which puts us back in the position of fighting another "cold war" with another form of MAD, except this time, its TAD, Totally Assured Destruction.

We cant buy them out, we cant solve all their problems for them, but we can make it so costly for them to attack us, that they keep their conflict among themselves, and leave us alone.

If they want our help, ask, America has the ability to feed and clothe the entire world, and we have allways been more than willing to share what we have.

But trying to force us to do as they wish wont work.

Using our Armed Forces as police is not a good idea.
They are soldiers, trained and expected to inflict as much damage and kill as many of the enemy as they can.
Police action, limited engagements, containment, all of that isnt what we have a military force for.

If you want police, call the cops.

If you want your enemy destroyed, call the military, but dont try and mix the two up, we learned that in Vietnam.

We need a new leader, one like Teddy Roosevelt, or FDR, who really do desire peace, but are also willing to stand up in public and state "Screw with us again, and we will turn you into ash" and have the gumption to make such a statement stick.

It would only take having that happen, and someone somewhere foolish enough to attack us again, and then having their country reduced to a middle ages economy, before the rest of the world fully understands that we are not going to put up with terrorist, acting as agents provocure for a nation.

You sponsered them, you pay the price, period.

I dont like war, but the fact is that, even though the might of our armed services should act as a deterrent to anyone who wishes to attact us, it didnt work this time.

The idea of sending our sons and daughters off to die in another country makes me sleep badly, but the idea that these jerks may decide Houston is a nice target bothers me even more.

As horrible as it sounds, I would perferr to be the guy holding the gun, not the guy getting shot.

Ed

[Anonymous]

I'll say only this:
I try hard not to hate anyone, and I think I'm exceptionally successful at this for a human being, but I think I could torture terrorists in some unthinkable ways...
And, I strongly feel the U.S. should get out of Iraq and get rid of George W. Bush as soon as possible.
The only solution if you want to go all the way with aggression is to nuke the whole world.

Yes, I'm a pacifist. It's a good feeling, everybody should try it.
Oliver

[Anonymous]

Here Here!

Ed is absolutely right, whatever France does Export, apparently a clothing line At a shop chain called Dillards, As U2's Bono put it best "They'd be Fu%^ed!" If it wasn't for the USA..

[edblysard]

Absolutly Dan!!!

Supersize it, and see if they want fries too!

Ed

[dharmon]

It's hard to be the world's policeman without making enemies and harder still to make foreign policy that doesn't **** someone off. Some would say that the world was safer place when we had two super powers pointing nukes at each other, cause we tended to reign in the loonies a little better as a part of detente. Terrorism was something that just happened in Europe and the middle east.

By and large with the exception of the WTC garage bomb, foreign terrorists struck at us abroad....in Beruit or Italy or the UK. The Locharbie bombing, though directed at the US took place overseas. The most remembered act of terrorism in the US up to 9/11 was domestic terrorism in OKC...by an American...it was an American that with some warped motivation that started sniping in DC/Va and it was Americans that decided one day to shoot up their own school in CO. 9/11 was the first time a dedicated terrorist enemy tried and succeeded to take the fight to the US mainland and boy did they do it on a grand scale.

Before we get going on too much of a "here we go again ...Support the Troops......." I don't think anyone, much less us, the troops likes going off to war, much less one which less than clear goals. I think alot of us thought we were going all the way to Bagdad in 91, and perhaps if we had, things would be different. Maybe better, maybe worse....I am a proponent of action and action has many forms.......But don't go half way.... Like I said before...take the war to them, with a freakin bacon double cheesburger, watching DVDs and listening to Rock and Roll...not half ***...resolve, American resolve......

[edblysard]

Scottydog,
I agree.
Who remembers why the ABC TV news magazine "Nightline" was created?
Because of the hostages in Iran.
Way back then, I was sure the fight was going to come to America, on American soil.
Then the first World Trade center bombing, in the garage happened.
So, where were our intelligence services then?
I bet Scottydogs sons were on alert then.

But from then till 9/11, did much of how we protect America from that sort of thing change?
Not really, because they really isnt that much you can change here.

I have a fundemental faith that most people, regardless of where they come from or what religion they follow, will, when faced with the choice of doing something good, or doing something evil, almost allways chose to do good.

Its the small percent that choses to be evil that are slowly destroying our world.

And I also chose to live in a open society, where we enjoy more freedoms than most people in other countries ever dream of, much less take part in.

I expect my goverment to protect me and my kids from the bad guys, just as I expect my fellow Americans to stand up and become part of the forces our goverment has to use to accompli***hat.

I dont expect, and feel almost cheated, when my goverment goes to war flying a false flag.

If we had just told the rest of the world that we were going to invade Iraq, because they helped the Al Quada jerks on 9/11, and not bothered with trying to disguise it as a "liberation of an oppressed people", or a "search for weapons of mass destruction", but just flat told everybody, "we are after the terrorist and their helpers, and if you dont like it, tough" and just flat rolled over Iraq, how many middle east countries do you think would want to support Osama after that?

Especially if we made it real clear, whoever helps him was next on the list?

Who would have opposed us?

Better yet, which European county can really do without American's purchasing their goods?

Think the rest of the world really cared what France though,(sorry Kevin)?
What does France have that we need that bad, besides good wine?

Point is, we got the world best Air Force, Navy, Army and Marines, the largest standing military reserve force, who are better trained and equiped than most countries standing Army, and we let them bring the fight here?

Why?

Give me one good reason American citizens should suffer one bit because people in the middle east have been fighting a semi religious/ political war for the last several centuries?

What in the world are we doing, standing around with our thumbs up our *** waiting for some commitee somewhere to decide that searching Americans who are going about their daily business is a good way to stop these clowns?

Christ in a side car, they crashed commerical airplanes into the WTC, the Pentagon, and tried for the White House!.
What more do you need?

When my Dad was my age, there wouldnt have been another bombing in Spain, because the folks behind this would either be POWs by now, or KIA.

Has the image of those two buildings falling down really faded from the American publics mind, and the burning Pentagon become history already?

Three buildings, full of people who's most threatning action that morning was to have a cup of coffee, a danish and read the morning paper are dead, and we waited two years to take real action....
Then did so based on bad intelligence guesses...

Sorry, but America has a pretty big boot, and its about time we started to leave scuff marks on a lot of other peoples floors, instead of pacing up and down our own halls, waiting on someone to guess wrong again.

Ed

[Anonymous]

With our foreign policy, the only thing that surprised me about 9/11 was that it hadn't happened much earlier than 2001.

[Anonymous]

With our foreign policy, the only thing that surprised me about 9/11 was I thought it would happen much, much earlier than 2001.

[dharmon]

You folks also forget that these things happen in other parts of the world much more often than they do in the states. Actual, no kidding terrorism, not drug crime or psychos or something involving the extortion of money, but real no kidding terrorism does not happen very often here. In Europe of the seventies eighties and parts of the nineties it was a weekly occurance...Red Brigade, PLO, IRA, ULA.......etc, etc, etc...........Not to down play the tragedy of it, but we were very isolated from it for a long time. .........In Europe for many years and to some degree I'd say still engrained is that terrorism happens..... The Basques and the Spanish have been going at it for years....they've been blowing up stuff for along time. It won't get attention here because most folks don't know where Spain is much less what a Basque is.....

[Kozzie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSFRailroad

I just heared that Al Qaeda is claiming responsibility for the train bombings.

That's what we heard down under too. Down here we were also reminded of the attack in Bali.

Train systems are just such an enormous thing to protect.

Kozzie

[Anonymous]

I agree 100% with Ed.

There is no Effective, and never will be an efective way to stop terrorisim:

Changing the subject for a second, No one in history has ever managed to successfully Stop new technology from ever being developed marketed or researched. No one, Sure the USA might put a ban on somehting, but that doesn't reflect other countries.

Now link those two sentances, Stopping Terrorisim and Stopping new Technology.

Although manyt people Hate Cell phones, moterola is comming out wiht anohter new smaller version next month, Can anyone stop them; yes, but it would be redundant.

Many, many people hate terrorisim, It should be Deplored by every civil human being, But Honestly talking, what can the police do to effectively Stop terrorisim?

Pull over every white van?

Stop every person because they have a foreign name?

No, and thats ludacris to do so, part from the fact, it becomes feckless after the first few runabouts.

I look at the terror alert level alot like the doomsday prophesis - Look, the doomes say soth sayers, or whatever the hell they are, have been peddling the same line over and over and over- the world is going to end.

Well the world will End, Most likely when the sun dies out in 20 some odd million years.

The terror alert is becomming somewhat inane aswell, You nor I can obstruct or Daily lives because of the threat of Terror alerts, I didn't stop going to Toronto because they had a Sars outbvreak, I have to weigh up my chances, And when the chances are equalt to a train popping out of nowhere, right in the middle of a field and running me down, (I.e 0.00000000000000000000000147) then, you have to take Risks.

The stock market is alkl about Risks, I'm not a gambler, so i don't Risk like that.

Thsi school form where i'm Typing is plagued with bacteria, yet i still go to school.

The average American 20 Dollar bill has 2 Mg of Cocaine embezilled in it, does that stop you from holding tenty dollar bills? No.

They released a study in Canada Showed the PVM in montrealas being Canada's best number 2 taget, other then the Cn tower. This study was then aired on TV, and the CANADIAN public Reaction WAS......:

shhh, hear the crickets in the background?

Nobody, to be honest really cared. Not because it's not somehting you can care about, but it's simply because no human being is going to stand on the top of PVM (place ville marie) and try to stop a plane from crashing it.

If it's going to happen, it's going to happen.

I really hate to burst anyone's bubble, But Welding Garbage Cans, Increasing patrol, And whatever other preventative messures are being Taken, WILL not effectively Stop any events, So a garbage can lid is welded shut.. Home dept sell Garbage cans for 5.77 minus the 2 dollar Mail-in-rebate.

there are toomnay ways to think of,

uhh off the top of my head, Fill up a gasolene can, Put Stirofoam in the gasolene can until it won't accept anymore, this makes a gasolene Jelly, Because the stirofoam will melt. and drop Anythign that contains a high amount of magnesium, such as ant-acids, and voils, the magnesium will react with the Gasolene jelly causing an IMENS fire, 4 times hotter then usual, plus the fact that syrofoam is being released in the Air, which is HIGHLY toxic.

and that looked like an innocent Gasolene can, possibly for a lawn moer or a weed eater. Now no doubt it looks funny brining in a Gasolene can to NY central station, But, like i said, patroling the most populated areas may end up proving to be a big mistake.

I'm not one for preventative messure whatsoever, this is like a bad douce of the stomach flu, because let's face it: You will throw up no matter what, now you can plug your mouth, to try and stop it, But that won't work... You can Take Gravol to make your stomach at ease, That will not work, stomach flu will run it's course...

But the best one is.. You can Take immodium to make yourself feel better, That will work! but watchout, the stomach flu Viruys will return With a vengince within a few days, and it will be so bad it will put you in a hospital... how do i know? I tried, and ended up in Lee memorial hospital, Southern Florida, 7500 bucks later i'm typing this.

Medical records prove, no one has ever effectively stopped Stomach flu.. You can try to make the problem Go away, but it will no, or it will, but it'll come Raging back..

So should this be treated like a common cold or a doucr of stomach flu: Just let the bug run the course?

I know thats a terrible thing to say, and a lot of memebers of this forums will be up in arms over jsut that suggestion..

But truly i say to you:

If you can find an effective way of stopping all terrorisim, i'd love to know.

You should then be able to find a way to stop all Railroad crossing accidents...

Because i don't think you will be able to.

[Anonymous]

It is after 9 am on Monday. I just read an AOL new article about the train bombing and its fallout in Spain.

Here are some of the results credited to the train bombing:

Spain's ruling party just received a MAJOR defeat in the recent election.
The people of Spain voted out the current leader and have elected a man who vows to bring home the Spani***roops from Iraq. They believe that helping the United States in Iraq brought the terriorist attack upon their nation. Therefore they are bringing home their troops when their pledged time is over.

Now get this, Aznar -- Spain's ousted leader -- accomplished the following while in office:

8 straight years of economic growth

cut unemployment in half

made Spain a founding member of the euro single currency

brought a degree of prominence to a long-ignored country.

Aznar's party was favored to win the elections but lost. Why? Credit is given to the train bombings and support of the American led war in Iraq.

The newly elected leaded, Rodriguez Zapatero, vows to fight terrorism. In one way this seems like a defeat to President Bush by losing a country's support in the fight again terrorism. It is hard to tell right now just exactly how this will all pan out. Only history can tell, and it is still undecided.

[Anonymous]

Ed, I agree with you on so many points--someone from Europe who tries to bring a pet to the US for an extended vacation has their pet quarantined for weeks, yet "Joe Blow" from any middle eastern nation is almost handed a key to the country. Our security is a farce, and the next round of attackers will almost assuredly come across our borders from either Canada or Mexico.

[Anonymous]

See I'm likeing what jim is wrote,

Society isn't about Us or them anymore, it is ABOUT ME.

But what makes society roll? Society, disected is a bunch of people jsut like you and me,

There are leaders and followers..

for example. for those of you into shoes may notice people are wearing Bowling shoes or ones that look like they were ripped off a bowling alley, Yes they are in fashion now, and that started with one person.

Society is like a feeight train, All the people are in a way coupled to each other, If one should Err, or Derail, By golly, Society could be in for a big mess.

If one derails, What are the chances of the one behind that crashing into the derailed one, and the one behind that.. A chain reaction occurs.

But back to my point...

How do we change society.. We change ourelves.

We are society, society is us.

We change, society changes, slowly.

[edblysard]

LC,
Correct, that wasnt panic, just a observation.

All of what you wrote is true, but...

We really couldnt keep them out, no matter what we try.

Remember, we are dealing with a people whose religion and politics are so intertwined as to be one and the same.
And religious fanatics have no problem killing thousands along with themselves for their cause.

The simplicity of the Madrid bombing is actually a peek at the sophistication they can employ.

Cheap, easy to build bombs, dispersed on trains, carried in a piece of luggage no one really notices anymore, heck every kid in the world has a backpack.
Set off with timers or by remote control.
Smart, no bomber's body to identify, and just enough conflicting evidence to make finding out who was really behind it hard.

And I beg to differ, but there are targets that meet their criteria.

Penzoil Plaza in downtown Houston would work.
Or the 90 miles of oil refineries lining both side of the Houston Ship Channel, and thats just two down here in the swamp.

Symbolisim counts for these guys a lot, note the reference in a above post to the number of days since 9/11, and the fact the Madrid bombing happened on the 11th.

What I was trying to get across was that if we are going to wage a war on terrorism, then lets take the fight to them, instead of waiting for them to come to us.
I think the invasion of Iraq was more of a political show than a true attempt to stop terrorism, it served a purpose, political exposure and political trimuph, but didnt really solve the problem.

Again, like Vietnam, a big show for the world, but the people involved are paying a dear price to make such a show.

No, we can never really secure our nation from terrorist attacks, but we can make the penalty for doing such things so costly that middle east nations will think long and hard about harboring or helping these guys.

Bet if you went to Spain today, and announced we were declaring war on these guys, with or with out the UN's blessing, and damn the rest of the worlds opinion, you couldnt find enough trucks to transport all the volunteers.

I dont like the idea of this kind of war, like Vietnam, how do you tell the bad guys from the good guys?

But the alternative is just as unpleasent.

Wait here till they gather the resources to commit another attack like 9/11.

These guys did more than destroy families on 9/11, they damaged a very fundamental part of what makes America such a great place to live.

They caused us to begin to give up some of our civil liberities, and begin to abandon or modify some of our civil rights, which is beginning to make us almost a oppressive as the nations they come from.
Fingerprinting and photographing foreign nationals entering America, and keeping track of when they leave is good, but watching American citizens, and depriving us of some of the things we hold dear is, in a way, giving in to the bad guys.

Not making fun, but seriously, what will the NYSP do if they happen to find a sucide bomber on a train?
Draw their weapon, and demand he put the bomb down, or they will shoot?
Shoot what?
The guy is the bomb.
And this guy wants to die for the cause, blowing up a State cop along with as many other people as he can is what he wants to do!
So how do you prevent him from getting on the train, search every single packpack or briefcase on every single commuter train in NY, or Washington DC?
You couldn't, just way too many people.

In reality, if I was a terrorist, I could enter America from Mexico, or Canada, steal a car or truck, and obtain just about everything I need to make a really effective truck bomb, and park it somewhere that would guarantee the death and destruction of a few thousand people and a big building or two, within 48 hours of entering the country.
All I would need is some hands on training on bomb making and car theft.
You were a cop, so you already know how easy it is to steal a car, how long it takes to even begin to look for it, and how easy it would be, if I knew where to look, to find the ingredients.
You can buy the makings of basic gunpowder at just about any major drug store.
One stolen Astro van, $20.00 at a Walgreens, and ten or fifteen 5 gal gas cans, filled at several diffrent gas stations.
Simple firecracker style ignition source, and drive than sucker right into the lobby of the NY stock exchange.
Done deal for under $300.00 and one marytered terrorist hero who wants to go to Allah.

I would rather be supporting a counter terrorist war fought on their soil, in their backyard and market places, with their civil liberities curtailed, than here on my land, in my cities.
I would rather they have to carry a national ID, and have to ask permission before they travel, instead of us have to do so.
I want them to be afraid of flying, taking a bus, or boarding a train more than me.
In the end, which would you rather be, the guy getting shot at, or the guy holding the gun?
We are the self appointed protectors of the free world, so lets get our fannys off the fence and get after it, because weather the rest of the world likes it or not, these guys are not going to negotiate a peace, so we better get busy, before they really do figure out where and how to get a nucelar bomb.

Dont doubt for a minute if one of their prophets tells them to, they wouldnt hesitate to use it, after all, dieing for their cause is a sure way to Allah.

We are fast coming to the point where we will be facing two choices,
one, gather up all of our toys, close all of our business interests from all of the middle east countries, and come home, letting them fight among themselves till they annihilate each other, which isnt likley to really solve anything, because America is the country they love to hate, and they will happily take us with them,
or,
Completly remove them in ours, and the rest of the worlds self interest.

From where I sit, the first option has about as much chance of working as me winning the lottery, so....
As unpleasent and horrible as it seems, we really have only the second one left, and I perfer it be fought on their soil.

Your right, LC, you are not going to find too many of them here, what little internal security we can muster has kept most of them out, but you will find a lot of them over there.
Guess I just got a really bad feeling we may be looking at the beginings of another Vietnam.

Ed

[Anonymous]

Ed wrote, in part:

"Which implied that all the small groups we dont know about, (and bet on there being hundreds) have free rein to pretty much do as they please.
A somewhat sobering thought.

As for the raid on the Amtrak train, the agent I spoke to confessed they only nab a few drug smugglers per year, so if we cant even keep the dope smugglers out, how in the world do we expect to keep the terrorist out?"

Ed-

I know you have some law enforcement background, as do I. Being up here quite close to the former site of the Twin Towers and having lost several folks I know personally in that mahem I can only tell you that I feel as concerned about it as anyone. However, now is not the time to panic about such things (not suggesting that you are) but to take stock of the situation and put meaningful security in place without breaking the bank.

There are sleeper cells and all manner of terrorist groups out there. Several such groups have been rounded up by the authorities in this neck of the woods since 9/11. Also, the terrorist watch lists are now linked to local law enforcement in large measure. It is interesting to see what happens when someone on the list gets a traffic ticket and comes to the local justice court. So it is not completely accurate to say that things are the same as they were before. I don't think these groups can do completely as they please.

Also, as to the rails, the terminals in NYC are much better patrolled than before and K-9s are very much in evidence there on my last couple visits. Also, each time NYC has a significant terror alert many of the NY State Police are riding the commuter and Amtrak trains in the region. Despite serious budget issues in NY, the NYSP is on a BIG hiring campaign too.

Lets not lose sight of the fact that the terrorists are looking to make BIG statements too. Whether it be 9/11 or the Madrid bombings the targets are large concentrations of people and have symbolic value. There are relatively few places in our country were both of those things occur in the same place. Certainly, coverage of every mile of rural railroad track or interstate will be difficult, it is probably also unecessary.

The fact that we haven't seen any new attacks on U.S. soil of any size should show that at least to some degree security is having an effect even if only to keep the terrorists guessing and thinking we are not as soft a target as we once were. No more easy slides on student visas, figerprinting and photographing of foreign nationals entering and leaving the U.S., better reporting on the sale of explosives and components, tighter security at the obvious targets, these all take a toll on the terrorists ability to move about and operate unhindered. This at least puts us on an equal footing with the rest of the world in terms of the "hardness" of the U.S. as a potential target.

The price of security is vigilance.

LC

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: originally posted by Andyjay
Hoy somos todos espanoles.(Did I get that right?)

thats 'today we are all spanish'

[edblysard]

Yeah, Glen,
Anything on the other side of the pond dosnt seem to rate much, but this is finally getting the civilian populations notice.
I would guess the Northeast corridor would be a easy target.
And if that goes down, Washington would be shut down.
Well, lets see what GW has to say on the 5:30 news.

Ed

[Anonymous]

Boy this is freaky! I saw this on another forum on a topic about the attack. The thing happened 3/11, 2 1/2 years after 9/11, 911 days after 9/11.

[Anonymous]

To Ed,

Yes, our priorities are #%*@^+ up! As you know, I work on Amtrak's high speed rail train. That very evening when I went to work, you couldn't find one cop in sight. Not Amtrak's, not DC's, or even the DC's Metro Transit police (because their car yard is on the same property as our's)!! When we complained about this to the supervisors, they said they would call them, but no one showed up (probably because they didn't call). It was the same way, the night of 11 September 2001. As the smoke and the light from the fire at the Pentagon filled the night sky over Washington, DC., there were plenty of police posted around Union Station, but one out there in the yards where the trains are
serviced and repaired. Plus, we get homeless people, who in the winter time, are seen
wandering through the rail yards looking for a warm place to sleep or sometimes looking for someone's lunch to swipe from the lunch rooms' refrigerators. When we've called the police on them, by the time they arrive, these jokers are gone. So much for quick reponse. Anyway Ed, the American public has issues. They will be horrified by the trivial and couldn't care less about the truely horrific. One of the news radio stations
here in DC that I listen to, WTOP, eventually did a 'what if' story about how secure are our nation's railroad's or their properties (ie: the right of way), but of course that was after they did their lengthy stories about Martha Stewart and that hockey player. So much for what's really important in life, eh Ed??


Glenn
A R E A L RAILROADER...A T R U E AMERICAN!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Anonymous]

You hit the nail on the head, JHH. Although I don't watch TV news much; I usually read the papers. And I'm "glad" to say the Madrid bombings made the front pages of our newspapers, if USA Today and the main papers of the LA area are any indication (glad in that yes, it has gotten our attention). However, the "me first" attitude did seem to be at work recently in our coverage of the horrendous rail disaster in Iran a few weeks ago when some freight cars broke loose, exploded, and leveled several villages and killed something like 400 people. (Do we know what caused it? Was it an accident or a possible terrorist attack as well?) Even so, from what I could see, it received minimal coverage in the States. (I dunno about Canada.)
Or last month, when the roof of an indoor water park collapsed in Moscow, killing about 20 people. That story was big news on the BBC website, but you had to dig pretty deep to find it in American papers. It obviously wasn't as devastating as the Iran disaster or Madrid attack, but the circumstances were pretty horrible; about a hundred or so people were buried under concrete and glass, and survivors were often left lacerated and bleeding in swimsuits in a freezing Russian winter night.
But yeah, to whoever started this column, it is pretty sad that this hockey incident, brutal as it was, was given preference to the Madrid attack. I mean, this is likely the latest front in the worldwide war on terrorism. My parents must be especially upset now, because they were actually in Madrid a little over a year ago. (My dad had a business trip there.) Hoy somos todos espanoles. (Did I get that right?)
Although I actually heard about the attack in Spain before this hockey incident.

[Anonymous]

Every sport has there little problem.Even Railfanning I have seen someone
knock over someones tripod and camera and the two guys were having fist
fight right in front of a locomotive that was about to move or the very
pissed of railfan who whats you to move a very large steam engine were
he can get the perfect shot.
Things can happen in what ever you do.Todd is going to lose $ 500,000
and the team is going to lose $ 250,000.