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Questions on the future of railroading.

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Posted by zugmann on Monday, July 7, 2008 11:19 PM
 wsherrick wrote:

If you want to buy those bulbs good for you.  That's fine.  I fully support the FREEDOM you have to choose the product you want in your dwelling.

I CHOOSE not to have those bulbs.  I shouldn't have to justify my choice to anybody and no one should assume the power to tell me what kind of lighting or anything else I want in my house.

Where does this stop?  Are the authorities going to ration how much heat you are allowed per day? How many miles you can drive per month or year?  Are they going to tell you that you can't have a fireplace or cook out in your yard with a grill? 

Perhaps the clothes you wear have artificial fibers in them that cause global warming. Are the Global Warming Fascists going to dictate what we will wear?

Where does this stop?  How much longer are we as a free people with the right to self determination going to put up with this garbage?

Are we going to hand over our basic rights because it is just too inconvenient?

Sometimes I wonder.

 

Pssst... there's a train with a white boxcar stopping at your town.  You're invited to check it out.. don't be late... 

 

It's been fun.  But it isn't much fun anymore.   Signing off for now. 


  

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Posted by wsherrick on Monday, July 7, 2008 11:26 PM
 zugmann wrote:
 wsherrick wrote:

If you want to buy those bulbs good for you.  That's fine.  I fully support the FREEDOM you have to choose the product you want in your dwelling.

I CHOOSE not to have those bulbs.  I shouldn't have to justify my choice to anybody and no one should assume the power to tell me what kind of lighting or anything else I want in my house.

Where does this stop?  Are the authorities going to ration how much heat you are allowed per day? How many miles you can drive per month or year?  Are they going to tell you that you can't have a fireplace or cook out in your yard with a grill? 

Perhaps the clothes you wear have artificial fibers in them that cause global warming. Are the Global Warming Fascists going to dictate what we will wear?

Where does this stop?  How much longer are we as a free people with the right to self determination going to put up with this garbage?

Are we going to hand over our basic rights because it is just too inconvenient?

Sometimes I wonder.

 

Pssst... there's a train with a white boxcar stopping at your town.  You're invited to check it out.. don't be late... 

 

If that's so then you need to be the first one to get on it pal.

If you can't see the end result of this chain of events then it's too bad.  If the Government decides what kind of light bulb you can or can not have, then; what else will they decide to control, "for our own good?"

It's not just about light bulbs.  It's the much larger picture of what such regulation and control represents. It should be fairly obvious to see.

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Posted by Jack_S on Tuesday, July 8, 2008 12:16 AM

From 50% to 60% of the containers that come by sea to the ports of Long Beach and Los Angeles are destined for delivery in Southern California.  SoCal is an enormous market for manufactured goods from Asia.  That part of the traffic gets delivered mostly by truck and doesn't hit the RRs.

 So if you are shipping that much stuff to SoCal in the first place, it makes sense to add the stuff for Middle America and get the benefit of economy of scale. 

 Jack

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Posted by zugmann on Tuesday, July 8, 2008 9:57 AM
 wsherrick wrote:

If that's so then you need to be the first one to get on it pal.

If you can't see the end result of this chain of events then it's too bad.  If the Government decides what kind of light bulb you can or can not have, then; what else will they decide to control, "for our own good?"

It's not just about light bulbs.  It's the much larger picture of what such regulation and control represents. It should be fairly obvious to see.

 

Dude.. if you want to sit in your cave taking every single piece of vomit that worldnet daily presents as "news" go right ahead.  You know how well the government is at keeping big secrets - like the eliminatiopn of all non-CFL light bulbs.  Just wait until the CFL police (in their Toyota Priuses with LED light bars) come knocking on your door... 

It's been fun.  But it isn't much fun anymore.   Signing off for now. 


  

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Posted by TimChgo9 on Tuesday, July 8, 2008 10:33 AM

Why is it, in these forums, that someone who speaks up about excercising their freedoms, as laid down by our Founding Fathers, and our Constitution, regarded as some sort of freak?  

Also, the other bothersome thing, is the fact that any thread that starts out, like this one, or others having to do with discussions of steam power, or fuel costs, or things like that always wind up, at some point, being about Global Warming? Can't we just stick to the topic? The thread gets sidetracked, and then hijacked by zealots on both sides, who are trying to prove a point. Soon the discussion gets lost, and then we are beset with another thread full of insults, flames, and political posturing, and it is soon locked, yet another victim of the GW/AGW zealots who populate this forum. 

My views on Global Warming are known only to family and friends.... God forbid I post them here, and get labeled an Anti Global Warming "brown shirt"......  It's insanity.....

"Chairman of the Awkward Squad" "We live in an amazing, amazing world that is just wasted on the biggest generation of spoiled idiots." Flashing red lights are a warning.....heed it. " I don't give a hoot about what people have to say, I'm laughing as I'm analyzed" What if the "hokey pokey" is what it's all about?? View photos at: http://www.eyefetch.com/profile.aspx?user=timChgo9
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Posted by UPRR engineer on Tuesday, July 8, 2008 10:53 AM
 Cheese wrote:

Hello,

Recently I've been pondering the future of railroads whenever I found spare time to do so. With gas prices what they are, more people are talking about rail transit and its got me thinking.

Oil prices are not only affecting the roads, but could we see the day when its more economical for a railroad to operate Coal fired steam rather than diesels, like the Crab Orchard & Egyptian Railroad did in the 1980's?

Could railroads once again be the top choice of transportation as they had been?

What do you think will happen?

Cheese

 Spend sometime searching about how energy works, life after peak oil, global economy, how oil and money are connected, upcoming economic collapse.... The railroads arent gonna pull out of it eather, too late in the game, all though we will be the last ones who fall.

 

Note to the mods, think we can have just one topic about oil, energy, global warming and the railroads.

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Posted by zugmann on Tuesday, July 8, 2008 10:59 AM
 TimChgo9 wrote:

Why is it, in these forums, that someone who speaks up about excercising their freedoms, as laid down by our Founding Fathers, and our Constitution, regarded as some sort of freak?  

 


  Give me old fashioned lighbulbs.. or give me death.

Although I would love to get HID lighting on locomotives.  The new container picker-uppers have them.. 

 

It's been fun.  But it isn't much fun anymore.   Signing off for now. 


  

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Posted by Limitedclear on Tuesday, July 8, 2008 11:08 AM
 passengerfan wrote:

On the news this AM was a segment on how South Africa has been producing diesel and gasoline from coal for years they actually built a refinery on top of a huge coal mine that occupies nearly ten miles. It is believed that if similar refineries were built here with just our known coal reserves we would be able to supply the nation with gas and diesel for a minimum of fifty years.

And if we built fifty nuclear generating plants we could electrify every RR mainline in North America and eliminate diesels from the mainlines altogether. That should be enough left over diesel to supply the trucking industry for at least the next 90 years.

So why are we so dependant on oil.

Al - in - Stockton  

And how much of our country would become uninhabitable from the accidents and waste?

There have been quite a few more than you think...

I'm not ready to glow in the dark just yet, thanks.

LC

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Posted by carnej1 on Tuesday, July 8, 2008 11:20 AM
 Limitedclear wrote:
 passengerfan wrote:

On the news this AM was a segment on how South Africa has been producing diesel and gasoline from coal for years they actually built a refinery on top of a huge coal mine that occupies nearly ten miles. It is believed that if similar refineries were built here with just our known coal reserves we would be able to supply the nation with gas and diesel for a minimum of fifty years.

And if we built fifty nuclear generating plants we could electrify every RR mainline in North America and eliminate diesels from the mainlines altogether. That should be enough left over diesel to supply the trucking industry for at least the next 90 years.

So why are we so dependant on oil.

Al - in - Stockton  

And how much of our country would become uninhabitable from the accidents and waste?

There have been quite a few more than you think...

I'm not ready to glow in the dark just yet, thanks.

LC

 Which is obviously why the entire nation of France is a lifeless, radioactive wasteland..after all they get about 80% of their power from Nuclear plants (and have for decades) so they must have disasters all the time, right?

 I get interesting reactions from friends who are left leaning and anti- nuclear when I mention that fact, they are constantly wondering why the US can't be more like Europe. But when I point out Europe's success with Nuclear power they get flustered...

  Many pro-nuke folks I know don't like to cite the French example because of "Francophobia"...

"I Often Dream of Trains"-From the Album of the Same Name by Robyn Hitchcock

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Posted by zugmann on Tuesday, July 8, 2008 12:06 PM
oh no... not.... freedom fries!!!!

It's been fun.  But it isn't much fun anymore.   Signing off for now. 


  

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Posted by UPRR engineer on Tuesday, July 8, 2008 5:46 PM

I get interesting reactions from friends who are left leaning and anti- nuclear when I mention that fact, they are constantly wondering why the US can't be more like Europe. But when I point out Europe's success with Nuclear power they get flustered...

I hope your not thinking (and telling people) that thats the answer to our energy problem. It sounds good, but it sure takes alot of oil to build one. Im not saying your an idiot, but theres alot of them out there that cant put the two together. Those are the things you make happen when its cheep to do so. Another thing the common man doesnt realize, they're not gonna give it away for free (power that is) after its up and running. Snap your fingers and a power plant pops up. Thats why things arent moving forward, alot of people blame red tape and environmentalist..... thats half the story, the other half is people alot smarter then we are telling them its not a good idea because oil is gonna drag us down.... why waste the money. The same can be said for the "green ideas" the oil companies are "investing in".... fractions of pennies on the dollar that they are making off oil. Electricity is a trick, it aint gonna help out the farmer, it aint gonna get food in the stores, it wont get the poor to there job, it aint gonna heat your home, ..... theres not copper wire and power poles laying all over the place waiting to get put up. There is no out... its all just a trick to make you feel better. There's far too many people in this country, even for the ones "pulling there weight"... nevermind the ones with there hand out wanting some of my tax money. The good days are going to come to an end here pretty soon. If your gonna talk about energy you really have to look at everything before pointing at another country. I'd bet most people in Europe arent living the good life like the middle class people here are.

 

As a Union Pacific employee im telling you its too late... the economy is going to get even worse, there aint gonna be that many people around to buy what we're moving. Theres no point in switching to steam, no need to hang wire over the tracks. If they (like everyone else today) thought they would be able make money in the future off of doing that, it would have been happening yesterday. I'd be willing to bet that today they think that double tracking the Sunset Route was a waste of time and money. The bad times are just getting started. Theres alot of dummies out there who dont see it, i dont think they'll be around here much longer. Sad but true, theres "a good varied slice" of America that comes here. From the looks of it most dont know the truth about where we're headed, how energy works, or they think some way the light will shine on this country again in the near future. It aint gonna happen, your life is gonna change and its gonna be more then uncomfortable. I have a strong argument to anyone who thinks other wise just by going on what the railroad has told me. You should be scared. We've built ourselfs up so high that making the cliff jump that much worse. What goes up must come down, it doesnt get much more simple then that. 

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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, July 8, 2008 8:55 PM
The answer to our energy problem is to take it on and solve it, and stop acting like victims.  It is the only way.  If you believe we don't have the resources, or that we can't develop them in time to matter, or that trying to obtain more energy will destroy the planet, then there is no hope.  You have bought the political propaganda that the U.S. is too successful. 
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Posted by UPRR engineer on Tuesday, July 8, 2008 9:34 PM
Little bit, i ment that the bobbleheads dont think that anything can hurt us because we're Americans. "We'll think of something" attitude. Funny you see it as acting like victims, i see it as reality. ALOT of people are gonna have to go, there is no hope for the way we live today. Something dramatic is gonna have to happen, theres just not enough to support everyone. There is no oil free solution to solve the problem, havent heard a good one that will work yet before things really start to get out of control. On C-SPAN ive heard people get up there and talk about how hard we worked to get to the moon, they had the answers and plan to get that done.... but thats all they can come up with. Hope that someone or something will solve our problems, but no answers to the energy problem yet. It's a hurdle we cant clear. We're not about to get off oil, its a camel we're not willing to jump off. Eather way we're headed for some major civil unrest over oil.
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Posted by Limitedclear on Tuesday, July 8, 2008 10:14 PM
 carnej1 wrote:
 Limitedclear wrote:
 passengerfan wrote:

On the news this AM was a segment on how South Africa has been producing diesel and gasoline from coal for years they actually built a refinery on top of a huge coal mine that occupies nearly ten miles. It is believed that if similar refineries were built here with just our known coal reserves we would be able to supply the nation with gas and diesel for a minimum of fifty years.

And if we built fifty nuclear generating plants we could electrify every RR mainline in North America and eliminate diesels from the mainlines altogether. That should be enough left over diesel to supply the trucking industry for at least the next 90 years.

So why are we so dependant on oil.

Al - in - Stockton  

And how much of our country would become uninhabitable from the accidents and waste?

There have been quite a few more than you think...

I'm not ready to glow in the dark just yet, thanks.

LC

 Which is obviously why the entire nation of France is a lifeless, radioactive wasteland..after all they get about 80% of their power from Nuclear plants (and have for decades) so they must have disasters all the time, right?

 I get interesting reactions from friends who are left leaning and anti- nuclear when I mention that fact, they are constantly wondering why the US can't be more like Europe. But when I point out Europe's success with Nuclear power they get flustered...

  Many pro-nuke folks I know don't like to cite the French example because of "Francophobia"...

Don't get all high and mighty, the French have had their incidents. They are no better at disposing of nuclear waste than the U.S. Where do you propose we put all the spent fuel? I have nothing against France or anyone else in particular and I take particular offense at your suggestion that I am to the left of center. In fact I spent much of my formative years around folks who worked on the Manhattan Project and subsequent nuclear efforts. Nuclear material is EXTREMELY dangerous and any leak or release is not only deadly, but can remain in the environment for long periods of time with half lives of the material measured between decades and centuries. Not someplace I need to live. Have you seen many people moving back into the towns near Chernobyl?? It only takes one mistake. We as humans make many. It is the way we all learn. Unfortunately one significant mistake can cost dearly with nuclear material...

LC

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Posted by selector on Tuesday, July 8, 2008 10:56 PM

Railroading reminder - please see the originator's title.  Please keep your comments germane.

Thanks a whole bunch.

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Posted by UPRR engineer on Wednesday, July 9, 2008 1:30 AM
 passengerfan wrote:

On the news this AM was a segment on how South Africa has been producing diesel and gasoline from coal for years they actually built a refinery on top of a huge coal mine that occupies nearly ten miles. It is believed that if similar refineries were built here with just our known coal reserves we would be able to supply the nation with gas and diesel for a minimum of fifty years.

Theres alot more people, trains ect. ect. over here using fossil fuel. Thats the difference. We drive to the store to get food, there's people over there living the tribal life living in huts and having to walk and hunt down there dinner. Saw it on the Travel Channel, Anthony Bourdain Show. If you want a look at what life is gonna be like, might want to try to start watching it. If you have never been to a 3rd world country give ya an idea of what real fuel conservation and or living with out fossil fuel is really like.

http://www.travelchannel.com/TV_Shows/Anthony_Bourdain

 

And if we built fifty nuclear generating plants we could electrify every RR mainline in North America and eliminate diesels from the mainlines altogether. That should be enough left over diesel to supply the trucking industry for at least the next 90 years.

So why are we so dependant on oil.

Al - in - Stockton  

Copper there buddy, its about to peak out also along with oil i guess. That aught to be enough to shoot down the idea of electrifying the mainlines. Same with electric cars and nuke power plants, gonna take alot of copper to get that done. Dont forget our grid has enough problems already. They did fix those problems didnt they???

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Posted by carnej1 on Wednesday, July 9, 2008 11:37 AM
 Limitedclear wrote:
 carnej1 wrote:
 Limitedclear wrote:
 passengerfan wrote:

On the news this AM was a segment on how South Africa has been producing diesel and gasoline from coal for years they actually built a refinery on top of a huge coal mine that occupies nearly ten miles. It is believed that if similar refineries were built here with just our known coal reserves we would be able to supply the nation with gas and diesel for a minimum of fifty years.

And if we built fifty nuclear generating plants we could electrify every RR mainline in North America and eliminate diesels from the mainlines altogether. That should be enough left over diesel to supply the trucking industry for at least the next 90 years.

So why are we so dependant on oil.

Al - in - Stockton  

And how much of our country would become uninhabitable from the accidents and waste?

There have been quite a few more than you think...

I'm not ready to glow in the dark just yet, thanks.

LC

 Which is obviously why the entire nation of France is a lifeless, radioactive wasteland..after all they get about 80% of their power from Nuclear plants (and have for decades) so they must have disasters all the time, right?

 I get interesting reactions from friends who are left leaning and anti- nuclear when I mention that fact, they are constantly wondering why the US can't be more like Europe. But when I point out Europe's success with Nuclear power they get flustered...

  Many pro-nuke folks I know don't like to cite the French example because of "Francophobia"...

Don't get all high and mighty, the French have had their incidents. They are no better at disposing of nuclear waste than the U.S. Where do you propose we put all the spent fuel? I have nothing against France or anyone else in particular and I take particular offense at your suggestion that I am to the left of center. In fact I spent much of my formative years around folks who worked on the Manhattan Project and subsequent nuclear efforts. Nuclear material is EXTREMELY dangerous and any leak or release is not only deadly, but can remain in the environment for long periods of time with half lives of the material measured between decades and centuries. Not someplace I need to live. Have you seen many people moving back into the towns near Chernobyl?? It only takes one mistake. We as humans make many. It is the way we all learn. Unfortunately one significant mistake can cost dearly with nuclear material...

LC

 If you reread my quote I never implied that you are a leftist, I was referring to folks I know personally.

 The fact remains that there are a number of countries (not to mention the United States NavY) that have had very good results with Nuclear Power. I personally would favor looking at newer, safer reactor designs such as the Modular Pebble Bed Reactor and CANDU designs though these require significant R&D.

 The waste of course can be shipped to Yucca mountain when that facility is completed. Chernobyl used a type of reactor design (Graphite core) which was not adopted by the West due to safety concerns.

 I do not for a second think that Nuclear power is an instant fix for the energy crisis but it may very well be part of the longterm solution.

 

"I Often Dream of Trains"-From the Album of the Same Name by Robyn Hitchcock

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Posted by carnej1 on Wednesday, July 9, 2008 11:50 AM
 UPRR engineer wrote:

I get interesting reactions from friends who are left leaning and anti- nuclear when I mention that fact, they are constantly wondering why the US can't be more like Europe. But when I point out Europe's success with Nuclear power they get flustered...

I hope your not thinking (and telling people) that thats the answer to our energy problem. It sounds good, but it sure takes alot of oil to build one. Im not saying your an idiot, but theres alot of them out there that cant put the two together. Those are the things you make happen when its cheep to do so. Another thing the common man doesnt realize, they're not gonna give it away for free (power that is) after its up and running. Snap your fingers and a power plant pops up. Thats why things arent moving forward, alot of people blame red tape and environmentalist..... thats half the story, the other half is people alot smarter then we are telling them its not a good idea because oil is gonna drag us down.... why waste the money. The same can be said for the "green ideas" the oil companies are "investing in".... fractions of pennies on the dollar that they are making off oil. Electricity is a trick, it aint gonna help out the farmer, it aint gonna get food in the stores, it wont get the poor to there job, it aint gonna heat your home, ..... theres not copper wire and power poles laying all over the place waiting to get put up. There is no out... its all just a trick to make you feel better. There's far too many people in this country, even for the ones "pulling there weight"... nevermind the ones with there hand out wanting some of my tax money. The good days are going to come to an end here pretty soon. If your gonna talk about energy you really have to look at everything before pointing at another country. I'd bet most people in Europe arent living the good life like the middle class people here are.

 

As a Union Pacific employee im telling you its too late... the economy is going to get even worse, there aint gonna be that many people around to buy what we're moving. Theres no point in switching to steam, no need to hang wire over the tracks. If they (like everyone else today) thought they would be able make money in the future off of doing that, it would have been happening yesterday. I'd be willing to bet that today they think that double tracking the Sunset Route was a waste of time and money. The bad times are just getting started. Theres alot of dummies out there who dont see it, i dont think they'll be around here much longer. Sad but true, theres "a good varied slice" of America that comes here. From the looks of it most dont know the truth about where we're headed, how energy works, or they think some way the light will shine on this country again in the near future. It aint gonna happen, your life is gonna change and its gonna be more then uncomfortable. I have a strong argument to anyone who thinks other wise just by going on what the railroad has told me. You should be scared. We've built ourselfs up so high that making the cliff jump that much worse. What goes up must come down, it doesnt get much more simple then that. 

 Well I certainly do not think that building any type of power plant is a quick or easy fix for the current crisis I also don't think that American civilization is about to collapse...... It's interesting how many times in modern history people have predicted this (the Y2K scare most recently) only to be proven wrong by events. Solutions do exist, though that does not mean that they will be cheap or easy to implement..

  I'm glad that many folks in the US didn't didn't buy into the "we're all doomed" outlook during tough times such as the Great Depression or the start of the Second World War...

"I Often Dream of Trains"-From the Album of the Same Name by Robyn Hitchcock

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Posted by TimChgo9 on Wednesday, July 9, 2008 12:06 PM
 UPRR engineer wrote:

I get interesting reactions from friends who are left leaning and anti- nuclear when I mention that fact, they are constantly wondering why the US can't be more like Europe. But when I point out Europe's success with Nuclear power they get flustered...

I hope your not thinking (and telling people) that thats the answer to our energy problem. It sounds good, but it sure takes alot of oil to build one. Im not saying your an idiot, but theres alot of them out there that cant put the two together. Those are the things you make happen when its cheep to do so. Another thing the common man doesnt realize, they're not gonna give it away for free (power that is) after its up and running. Snap your fingers and a power plant pops up. Thats why things arent moving forward, alot of people blame red tape and environmentalist..... thats half the story, the other half is people alot smarter then we are telling them its not a good idea because oil is gonna drag us down.... why waste the money. The same can be said for the "green ideas" the oil companies are "investing in".... fractions of pennies on the dollar that they are making off oil. Electricity is a trick, it aint gonna help out the farmer, it aint gonna get food in the stores, it wont get the poor to there job, it aint gonna heat your home, ..... theres not copper wire and power poles laying all over the place waiting to get put up. There is no out... its all just a trick to make you feel better. There's far too many people in this country, even for the ones "pulling there weight"... nevermind the ones with there hand out wanting some of my tax money. The good days are going to come to an end here pretty soon. If your gonna talk about energy you really have to look at everything before pointing at another country. I'd bet most people in Europe arent living the good life like the middle class people here are.

 

As a Union Pacific employee im telling you its too late... the economy is going to get even worse, there aint gonna be that many people around to buy what we're moving. Theres no point in switching to steam, no need to hang wire over the tracks. If they (like everyone else today) thought they would be able make money in the future off of doing that, it would have been happening yesterday. I'd be willing to bet that today they think that double tracking the Sunset Route was a waste of time and money. The bad times are just getting started. Theres alot of dummies out there who dont see it, i dont think they'll be around here much longer. Sad but true, theres "a good varied slice" of America that comes here. From the looks of it most dont know the truth about where we're headed, how energy works, or they think some way the light will shine on this country again in the near future. It aint gonna happen, your life is gonna change and its gonna be more then uncomfortable. I have a strong argument to anyone who thinks other wise just by going on what the railroad has told me. You should be scared. We've built ourselfs up so high that making the cliff jump that much worse. What goes up must come down, it doesnt get much more simple then that. 

So, you know better than the rest of us, that America, as we know it is doomed.  I really dislike the whole 'America is doomed' kind of rhetoric that comes from people like you.... it's really quite tiresome, to be perfectly honest.  Contrary to what you want to believe, there is an out.  We have to drill for oil, and that's the bottom line. Americans are people who have always, and I mean, always come up with a solution to a problem.  We always have, we always will.  We have gone to the moon, built railroads under, around, and through mountains.  We have found efficient ways to move things and people around this country.  We have won wars, cured diseases, and we have invented many of the conveniences this world knows.  I have confidence in my country, and the people who inhabit it, unlike you, who would rather run around and scream the sky is falling. 

Pollyanna beliefs? No, it's not a "snap my fingers" for a miracle kind of thing.  Whatever solution we arrive at is going to take time, but, I believe the solution will be arrived at. 

Why, pray tell, are there going to be "fewer people around" to consume what your railroad is moving.  Do you know something we don't?  How can you be so sure that most of the "varied slice of America" that inhabits this forum know nothing about how energy works?  I think most of the people in this forum have an above average level of intellgence, and are quite capable of finding out how energy works if they don't know already. 

Your callous, and crass dismissal of this country being on the way down, and your equally callous dismissal of the members of this forum, is clearly beyond the pale, and frankly, a point of view I am not going to listen to. 

Yeah, the economy is bad, (I know, because I have been out of work for 18 months)  the energy crisis is there, and it's alive, but, it's not the end of the world, not yet... .

"Chairman of the Awkward Squad" "We live in an amazing, amazing world that is just wasted on the biggest generation of spoiled idiots." Flashing red lights are a warning.....heed it. " I don't give a hoot about what people have to say, I'm laughing as I'm analyzed" What if the "hokey pokey" is what it's all about?? View photos at: http://www.eyefetch.com/profile.aspx?user=timChgo9
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Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, July 9, 2008 1:49 PM
 UPRR engineer wrote:
 passengerfan wrote:

On the news this AM was a segment on how South Africa has been producing diesel and gasoline from coal for years they actually built a refinery on top of a huge coal mine that occupies nearly ten miles. It is believed that if similar refineries were built here with just our known coal reserves we would be able to supply the nation with gas and diesel for a minimum of fifty years.

Theres alot more people, trains ect. ect. over here using fossil fuel. Thats the difference. We drive to the store to get food, there's people over there living the tribal life living in huts and having to walk and hunt down there dinner.

There is a large faction of people in this country who believe that is exactly what the U.S. needs to do because they believe that our material success is offensive and unfair to the rest of the world.  This faction shoots down all solutions to the energy problem because they don't want a solution.  And if enough people believe them when they tell us there are no solutions, there will not be a solution.  Our energy problem is not about technology and fuels.  It is all about this ideological tug of war.  And by our ideas and beliefs, we are each participating in that tug of war.

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Posted by UPRR engineer on Wednesday, July 9, 2008 2:07 PM

I think you guys should read this stuff, what you guys fail to see is how much energy (oil) it takes to do things like building a new power plant. Who ever wrote this does a better job expaining it then i can, they even throw in the energy trains use to make stuff like that happen so i dont get in trouble.

The economics of electricity generation are important. If the financial cost of building and operating the plant cannot profitably be recouped by selling the electricity, it is not economically viable. But as energy itself can be a more fundamental unit of accounting than money, it is also essential to know which generating systems produce the best return on the energy invested in them. This is part of Life Cycle Analysis (LCA).

Analysing this energy balance between inputs and outputs, however, is complex because the inputs are diverse, and it is not always clear how far back they should be taken in any analysis. For instance, oil expended to move coal to a power station, or electricity used to enrich uranium for nuclear fuel, are generally included in the calculations. But what about the energy required to build the train or the enrichment plant? And can the electricity consumed during enrichment be compared with the fossil fuel needed for the train? Many analyses convert kilowatt-hours (kWh) to kilojoules (kJ), or vice versa, in which assumptions must be made about the thermal efficiency of the electricity production.

Thats from http://world-nuclear.org/info/inf11.html theres more on there to read. Thats what most people cant figure out, it takes a bigger dog (oil) to wag the smaller dogs tail (all other forms of energy).

Sorry your out of work there buddy, this stuff should have been front page news years ago. I'm still standing on what i was told by my buddy at Union Pacific and what the petro geologist are saying. Watch the news and see what happens i guess, with as much oil as the railroads use i doubt things are gonna get any better. If something else blind sided us here, which has happened before, and disrupts our daily supply. Dont paint me as a person that wants it to happen, hang in there, if oil hits $200 a barrel by years end or switches over to the euro as some have said it might be a good time to think about what i've said. Hopefully we'll just keep easing into it. Hang in there guy and keep watching whats happening with oil, lenders, banks and railroads.

 

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Posted by wsherrick on Wednesday, July 9, 2008 2:09 PM
 Bucyrus wrote:
 UPRR engineer wrote:
 passengerfan wrote:

On the news this AM was a segment on how South Africa has been producing diesel and gasoline from coal for years they actually built a refinery on top of a huge coal mine that occupies nearly ten miles. It is believed that if similar refineries were built here with just our known coal reserves we would be able to supply the nation with gas and diesel for a minimum of fifty years.

Theres alot more people, trains ect. ect. over here using fossil fuel. Thats the difference. We drive to the store to get food, there's people over there living the tribal life living in huts and having to walk and hunt down there dinner.

There is a large faction of people in this country who believe that is exactly what the U.S. needs to do because they believe that our material success is offensive and unfair to the rest of the world.  This faction shoots down all solutions to the energy problem because they don't want a solution.  And if enough people believe them when they tell us there are no solutions, there will not be a solution.  Our energy problem is not about technology and fuels.  It is all about this ideological tug of war.  And by our ideas and beliefs, we are each participating in that tug of war.

You are absolutely correct.  You are to feel guilty because you have running water and some poor souls in outer Krapistan have to carry it on their heads in a jar for ten miles.  We are bad because some how we stole all of this wealth and it's not fair.  So we have to be made to pay for it. I read "Atlas Shrugged," by Ayn Rand many years ago and the current state of affairs is a scene right out of that book.

 

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Posted by UPRR engineer on Wednesday, July 9, 2008 4:45 PM

 That book is above me, i couldnt make it threw it after reading the reviews off Amazon.com  While reading the reviews and watching CNBC, i saw a T. Boone Pickens tv commercial today (BP oil) heres the link http://youtube.com/watch?v=R2bOug1d20c if ya want to watch it.

Below is a quote of what he had to say in 2005.

Heres the link:  http://www.peakoil.net/BoonPickens.html

"The majors, they talk about plenty of oil and that they can produce more, but if you look at ExxonMobile, ChevronTexaco, BP (British Petroleum), all the production (is) going down every year. They don't replace and they don't add to production, but they say there's plenty of oil around.

"Now why would they say that? One of the chief economists with one of the major oil companies... I was at a conference where he was... we were talking and I asked, why do they say that? And he said, can you imagine what would happen if one of these major oil company's CEO's got up and made a speech and he said, 'We're running out of oil'? I said there'd be panic and he said, 'That's right. They're not going to make the statement. They're going to say there's plenty of oil around'".

"I know that sounds rather simple, but that's the best answer I've had... why they keep saying that there's plenty of oil around. I can't tell you positive, but I am just so sure that we have peaked and from here on the demand side that we are going to have a hard time making the trip on fuel. I know demand will come down with price. That will happen".

He answered several audience questions and predicted that if the summer is hot in the Southeast that natural gas prices will go to $10. "Natural gas is in decline", he stated, concluding that eventually the market will sort out the winners and losers".

Doesnt make much since, didnt the railroads try to use something else then diesel about ten years ago and it didnt work out so well. Guess at least he's not telling lies about where we are at.

Future of Railroading: Lowering operating ratio, fuel conservation, less employees on the payroll... that will keep us going for a little longer. The face of 2009 in the industry is gonna look different. Theres been some little changes here and there that most people dont see the reason behind, if you ask yourself why it becomes a little more clear. If things get too bad i got me a job over at the diesel pit, they like me pretty well over there, scoop me up in a second.

Thanks for sharing the title of the book, liked reading those reviews while waiting for the call to go burn up some more of our limited fuel supply.

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Posted by edblysard on Wednesday, July 9, 2008 6:13 PM

Here is my peek into the crystal ball...

Railroads will resume the alternative fuel use...aka BN's Natural gas SD40s, with fuel tenders included.

You can already see it in effect at LA Junction with their MK1500s running on natural gas.

Both EMD and GE's prime movers can be adapted to run on CNG, LPG, so forth.

Expect the big 2 to have flex fuel locomotives in their catalogs...

Do not expect electric locomotives on long haul or out west, too cost prohibitive, but look for some smaller eastern roads, maybe a few short lines putting up wires.

Residential power, look for a few nukes, but bet on coal.

America will have to relax the EPA stuff...people will choose their Lexus over the snail darter...

Wind power will get bigger...maybe not better, but bigger, but a combination of Nukes, alternative sources and good old coal will be it...

23 17 46 11

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Posted by zugmann on Wednesday, July 9, 2008 7:17 PM

For the foreseeable future - I can't see the big RRs going for another mainline* fuel source.  Right now - all the engines use the same fuel.  So all the engines can go anywhere and be interchanged at will.  There is enough hassle keeping engines with cab signals, ATC, or LSLs in their correct territory.  To add another fuel source (and tenders).... that would be a logistical nightmare.

 * - I can see an alternative fuel source used for yard goats as those engines usually seem to stay in one spot, usually. 

It's been fun.  But it isn't much fun anymore.   Signing off for now. 


  

The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any

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Posted by Norman Saxon on Wednesday, July 9, 2008 7:32 PM
 zugmann wrote:

For the foreseeable future - I can't see the big RRs going for another mainline* fuel source.  Right now - all the engines use the same fuel.  So all the engines can go anywhere and be interchanged at will.  There is enough hassle keeping engines with cab signals, ATC, or LSLs in their correct territory.  To add another fuel source (and tenders).... that would be a logistical nightmare.

 

What you need to ask yourself is if the price of the "logistical nightmare" is more or less than the 13-1 price advantage coal has over petroleum.  Let's wait and see what happens to this oil price bubble first.  If oil goes down, how far down will it go?  Back to $30 a barrel?  $70 a barrel?  Or will it stay above $100 a barrel for the rest of our lifetimes?  If it's the latter, then only hard CO2 caps can stop a return to using coal-fired locomotion.

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Posted by zugmann on Wednesday, July 9, 2008 7:44 PM

 The amazing part is how long you spend idling.  It should not take 12 hours to go 80 miles.  But it happens day in and day out.  Routings need to be simplified.  Why send cars hundreds of miles out of their way?  How about some dispatchers and movement officials that have more than 3 brain cells?  Managers that care about service, instead of looking for petty rule violations. 

The biggie - crews need to be better managed. 

It's been fun.  But it isn't much fun anymore.   Signing off for now. 


  

The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any

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Posted by piouslion1 on Wednesday, July 9, 2008 8:24 PM

 Bucyrus wrote:
The answer to our energy problem is to take it on and solve it, and stop acting like victims.  It is the only way.  If you believe we don't have the resources, or that we can't develop them in time to matter, or that trying to obtain more energy will destroy the planet, then there is no hope.  You have bought the political propaganda that the U.S. is too successful. 

Bucyrus:

I with you on this one, I never heard of being to successful being a roadblock when it comes to solving a difficulty or inconvenience (notice I don't like the word problem).  

I do like the way you think about this matter.

PL 

 

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Posted by wsherrick on Wednesday, July 9, 2008 9:32 PM
 zugmann wrote:

 The amazing part is how long you spend idling.  It should not take 12 hours to go 80 miles.  But it happens day in and day out.  Routings need to be simplified.  Why send cars hundreds of miles out of their way?  How about some dispatchers and movement officials that have more than 3 brain cells?  Managers that care about service, instead of looking for petty rule violations. 

The biggie - crews need to be better managed. 

You are correct about that. 

BTW:  I found out what brand of deodorant is used by all Norfolk Southern managers.  It's called: "FRA Sure," It gives you three step protection and is 100% rules compliant!!!

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Posted by zugmann on Wednesday, July 9, 2008 9:33 PM
Strong enough for a man.. but made for a trainmaster...

It's been fun.  But it isn't much fun anymore.   Signing off for now. 


  

The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any

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