Chris30 wrote: Trailryder... I like your website. I haven't seen too many pictures of the tunnel in its current condition. I also like the picture of the inside of the tunnel. That's a very rare picture.I'm going to ask a question to which I think I know the answer but I'm going to ask anyways. Was there any possibility that the tunnel could have been day-lighted? I don't know if there was ever a reason for the CGW to consider that. I'm just curious if it was possible. I would like to see the Great Western Trail extended all the way accross Illinois from Villa Park to Galena. I don't know if that's possible. Currently, you can go from Villa Park to Sycamore with a couple of minor detours.CC
Trailryder... I like your website. I haven't seen too many pictures of the tunnel in its current condition. I also like the picture of the inside of the tunnel. That's a very rare picture.
I'm going to ask a question to which I think I know the answer but I'm going to ask anyways. Was there any possibility that the tunnel could have been day-lighted? I don't know if there was ever a reason for the CGW to consider that. I'm just curious if it was possible.
I would like to see the Great Western Trail extended all the way accross Illinois from Villa Park to Galena. I don't know if that's possible. Currently, you can go from Villa Park to Sycamore with a couple of minor detours.
CC
The interesting article about Winston Tunnel in the 1998 Northwestern Lines magazine by Jerry Huddleston states that in 1964, the CGW did consider daylighting the tunnel, rerouting the main line around the tunnel, or repairing the tunnel. Repairing the tunnel was estimated to be the cheapest option; however, merger talks with the CNW ended those plans. Daylighting the tunnel was definitely doable with modern day earth moving equipment, for there is not much earth above the tunnel.
As for extending the Great Western trail to Galena, it may not work. Much of the old CGW ROW between Byron and Stockton IL was torn up. I think most if not all of the grade between Stockton and the tunnel is still in place, so there is a possibility for a trail.
Jeff
I pulled the 1972 Moody's Transportation Manual off the bookshelf to take a look at CGW's financials for the 60's (information is contained in the CNW listing).
Like many other railroads, CGW saw it's revenues slipping in the 50's and 60's. Operating revenues hit the high water mark in 1957 with $36.8 million and then gradually dropped to $31.2 million in 1966 (the full year prior to the merger). The operating ration was solidly in the mid to high 60's in the 1950's and gradually increased in the 1960's with the OR ranging from 70-75%, with a 1966 OR of 75.68% vs 77.4% for CNW.
At the time of the merger, CGW's revenue was $31.2 m vs $313.9 for CNW.
Long term debt for CGW was $16m vs shareholder equity of $79million, while CNW had LTD of $225m vs SE of $435m.
So, glancing at these numbers, it appears that CGW was a tidy little railroad that made a decent dollar, but was facing a tough time as revenues shrunk due to the movement of freight to trucks and other rail related issues. Debt was manageable and there were assets. The problem would have been sustaining any income from those assets as years went by.
Their board obviously did a smart thing by merging when they did. A few years later and it would have been very difficult to survive. Take a look at the very little of their rail system still in place...my map doesnt show very much.
ed
WIAR,
There is more to the story. The SOO offered more "$'s per mile" because they only wanted to buy north to their MN&S connection in Northfield, MN. The C&NW offered to buy the entire line which is what the receiver wanted. The remaining piece(Rosemont to Inver Grove Yard) really had no industries and would have been hard to sell by itself.
When the Milwaukee Road sale came up, SOO went head to head again with C&NW on the bidding. Most thought that C&NW would again win the bid, and SOO was making plans to lease trackage from C&NW and make crew change arrangements. Everyone was surprised when SOO actually won the bidding war for the Milwaukee Road.
If the original sale would have gone to the SOO, there still would have been upgrade/lease issues for SOO:
The Spine Line was in rough shape, but had signalling, and was a much better Twin Cities-Kansas city route. The SOO sold off the old Milwaukee line down the river and across to KC. CP has now 'reclaimed' it with the purchase of the DM&E/IC&E - What goes around, comes around!
Jim
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
Victrola1 wrote: When the Rock Island went under, the C&NW took the Rock Island from the Twin Cities to Kansas City. A lot of rebuilt C&GW to Kansas City disappeared in the bargin. So did a lot of old M&StL.Was it worth the money for the route swap in and of itself? Was this more a strategic move to block competitors?
When the Rock Island went under, the C&NW took the Rock Island from the Twin Cities to Kansas City. A lot of rebuilt C&GW to Kansas City disappeared in the bargin. So did a lot of old M&StL.
Was it worth the money for the route swap in and of itself? Was this more a strategic move to block competitors?
The Rock provided a more direct route for CNW from the Twin Cities to KC plus it eliminated trackage rights on the Mo Pac from St Joe to KC. Was it worth the money? I don't know. The Rock Island Spine line was not in good physical shape when it went under. The CNW may of stuck a lot of money into rebuilding this line. I'm sure blocking competitors from aquiring this direct corridor was also a reason.
eolafan wrote:Say CGW, I have been trying to find a good web site that has photos of the CGW facilities in Stockton but have had no luck...can you lead me in the right direction? Also would like to see a photo web site for shots of CGW action between Chicago and Dubuque in the 19850-1968 period, any suggestions? Thanks.
Good question, I am trying to find some websites with photos myself. The only websites I am aware of that have photos of the CGW line from Dubuque to Chicago in the 1950's and 60's is the photo section of the CGW yahoo group site and the Unofficial Chicago Great Western web sight. There are a few books that have photos from this location and time period.."CGW In Color" and "CGW Iowa In The Merger Decade"
Bill:Great shots of the tunnel area. How far of a hike is it to either portal?
Trailryder wrote: For Photos of The Winston Tunnel check out My Photo Gallery. I have been there several times and never had a problem with Snakes, although I was ambushed by a Wild Turkey once.My advice is to go in the Fall, always make a trip around Thanksgiving time.http://www.pbase.com/trailryder/winston Later Bill
For Photos of The Winston Tunnel check out My Photo Gallery. I have been there several times and never had a problem with Snakes, although I was ambushed by a Wild Turkey once.
My advice is to go in the Fall, always make a trip around Thanksgiving time.
http://www.pbase.com/trailryder/winston
Later Bill
Nice photos Bill! Thanks for posting
MP173 wrote: I did a search for Winston Tunnel and there was quite a bit of information.An article by Jerry Huddleston "The Hole in Stickney's Pocketbook Winston Tunnel" describes the tunnel and the operational issues with it. Interesting reading, particularly the proposed abandonment of the tunnel and rebuilding of the line from Stockton, Il to Farley, Iowa (about 50 miles). The early 1950's cost would have been $37million and obviously it was never completed.In Huddlestons' article is an interesting description of the sizes of trains CGW ran (including one 15,000hp, 275 car train!It is easy to see why CGW experienced difficulty, the stretch from Stockton to Dubuque was a drain.ed
I did a search for Winston Tunnel and there was quite a bit of information.
An article by Jerry Huddleston "The Hole in Stickney's Pocketbook Winston Tunnel" describes the tunnel and the operational issues with it. Interesting reading, particularly the proposed abandonment of the tunnel and rebuilding of the line from Stockton, Il to Farley, Iowa (about 50 miles). The early 1950's cost would have been $37million and obviously it was never completed.
In Huddlestons' article is an interesting description of the sizes of trains CGW ran (including one 15,000hp, 275 car train!
It is easy to see why CGW experienced difficulty, the stretch from Stockton to Dubuque was a drain.
Up and down and around and around is the best way to describe the CGW line from Stockton to Farley. Not an idea line for high speed trains; however, I've been told that this was probably the best maintained line of the CGW system. I'm sure if this line existed today, trains equiped with DPU would be a common sight.
Los Angeles Rams Guy wrote: I've often wondered if some of those ex-CGW segments could have lasted a little bit longer if Jack Haley might have been interested in some of those after he bought the ICG's Iowa Division back in '85; particularly the segment between Waterloo and Kansas City or even perhaps between Dyersville and Oelwein.I think some of the old CGW still exists under UP auspicies in and around Clarion, doesn't it?
I've often wondered if some of those ex-CGW segments could have lasted a little bit longer if Jack Haley might have been interested in some of those after he bought the ICG's Iowa Division back in '85; particularly the segment between Waterloo and Kansas City or even perhaps between Dyersville and Oelwein.
I think some of the old CGW still exists under UP auspicies in and around Clarion, doesn't it?
Yes, UP does operate some Ex-CGW grain gathering trackage from Somers, near Ft Dodge, to somewhere north of Clarion. Also, there is some active Ex-CGW trackage from St Paul south to Roseport MN where UP serves a oil refinery.
The IC could have been a player in the Twin City market by purchasing the Ex-CGW from Dyersville all the way to St Paul let alone benefiting from the huge Oelwein shops and yard. That would have been nice to see.
WIAR wrote: CGW wrote: The tracks did run by the depot and the depot is located at it's original location. A bridge once carried US 20 over the CGW. Once the line was taken out, they removed the bridge and filled in the ROW. It is amazing to think that they once ran 100+ car trains through the hills of NW Illinios. If you know where to look, you can still see areas where the CGW once ran; for example, there is a high grade just west of woodbine along US 20. topozone.com may be the place to go to find a detailed map of the CGW trackage along with other rail lines that no longer exists.As for Winston Tunnel, the west portal still exists and is owned by the DNR I believe; however, you cannot enter it because it is fenced off. The east portal has been bulldozed shut and on private property. The tunnel itself has collapsed about half way through I've been told. I have never been there, but I heard the area is infested with rattle snakes...so if you ever go there, be careful.On another historical note, a village called Oneida, IA (about 35 miles west of Dubuque on the CGW) is the location of where one of the first sections of welded rail in the US was installed in 1939. The CGW was also an early user of TOFC service. It is too bad the CGW did not find a better merger parter that found more use of the CGW trackage rather then to get rid of its competition. I guess that was a common trend of the railroad industry back in the 60's and 70's. Jeff eolafan wrote:When I travel to Dubuque from Aurora a few times a year I take Hwy. 20 west from Rockford and travel right through Stockton. Last time through (it may have been in Stockton or Elizabeth, I can't recall) I noticed the CGW museum so I took a detour and they were closed that day...I'll have to go back some time. I noted the museum looked like a depot (passenger or freight) but did not seem to be located where there was ever tracks...can anybody help by providing a map or something that would tell me where the CGW tracks went through Stockton? I've often wondered the same thing about the CNW/CGW "merger" ("CNW takeover" is more correct). I know the CGW was exploring a combination with the SOO, and that I think would've been very interesting as it would've been an end-to-end merger, with virtually nothing in the way of redundant trackage. I've read only a few details about that SOO/CGW proposal - I'd certainly like to know why it never occurred. That would've given the SOO the access to KC that they didn't achieve until 1985 (although the MILW's route there was a better way as opposed to the CGW's via St. Joseph where I think they had 4 mandatory stops in the city).
CGW wrote: The tracks did run by the depot and the depot is located at it's original location. A bridge once carried US 20 over the CGW. Once the line was taken out, they removed the bridge and filled in the ROW. It is amazing to think that they once ran 100+ car trains through the hills of NW Illinios. If you know where to look, you can still see areas where the CGW once ran; for example, there is a high grade just west of woodbine along US 20. topozone.com may be the place to go to find a detailed map of the CGW trackage along with other rail lines that no longer exists.As for Winston Tunnel, the west portal still exists and is owned by the DNR I believe; however, you cannot enter it because it is fenced off. The east portal has been bulldozed shut and on private property. The tunnel itself has collapsed about half way through I've been told. I have never been there, but I heard the area is infested with rattle snakes...so if you ever go there, be careful.On another historical note, a village called Oneida, IA (about 35 miles west of Dubuque on the CGW) is the location of where one of the first sections of welded rail in the US was installed in 1939. The CGW was also an early user of TOFC service. It is too bad the CGW did not find a better merger parter that found more use of the CGW trackage rather then to get rid of its competition. I guess that was a common trend of the railroad industry back in the 60's and 70's. Jeff eolafan wrote:When I travel to Dubuque from Aurora a few times a year I take Hwy. 20 west from Rockford and travel right through Stockton. Last time through (it may have been in Stockton or Elizabeth, I can't recall) I noticed the CGW museum so I took a detour and they were closed that day...I'll have to go back some time. I noted the museum looked like a depot (passenger or freight) but did not seem to be located where there was ever tracks...can anybody help by providing a map or something that would tell me where the CGW tracks went through Stockton?
The tracks did run by the depot and the depot is located at it's original location. A bridge once carried US 20 over the CGW. Once the line was taken out, they removed the bridge and filled in the ROW. It is amazing to think that they once ran 100+ car trains through the hills of NW Illinios. If you know where to look, you can still see areas where the CGW once ran; for example, there is a high grade just west of woodbine along US 20. topozone.com may be the place to go to find a detailed map of the CGW trackage along with other rail lines that no longer exists.
As for Winston Tunnel, the west portal still exists and is owned by the DNR I believe; however, you cannot enter it because it is fenced off. The east portal has been bulldozed shut and on private property. The tunnel itself has collapsed about half way through I've been told. I have never been there, but I heard the area is infested with rattle snakes...so if you ever go there, be careful.
On another historical note, a village called Oneida, IA (about 35 miles west of Dubuque on the CGW) is the location of where one of the first sections of welded rail in the US was installed in 1939. The CGW was also an early user of TOFC service. It is too bad the CGW did not find a better merger parter that found more use of the CGW trackage rather then to get rid of its competition. I guess that was a common trend of the railroad industry back in the 60's and 70's.
eolafan wrote:When I travel to Dubuque from Aurora a few times a year I take Hwy. 20 west from Rockford and travel right through Stockton. Last time through (it may have been in Stockton or Elizabeth, I can't recall) I noticed the CGW museum so I took a detour and they were closed that day...I'll have to go back some time. I noted the museum looked like a depot (passenger or freight) but did not seem to be located where there was ever tracks...can anybody help by providing a map or something that would tell me where the CGW tracks went through Stockton?
I've often wondered the same thing about the CNW/CGW "merger" ("CNW takeover" is more correct). I know the CGW was exploring a combination with the SOO, and that I think would've been very interesting as it would've been an end-to-end merger, with virtually nothing in the way of redundant trackage. I've read only a few details about that SOO/CGW proposal - I'd certainly like to know why it never occurred. That would've given the SOO the access to KC that they didn't achieve until 1985 (although the MILW's route there was a better way as opposed to the CGW's via St. Joseph where I think they had 4 mandatory stops in the city).
KCS I believe was also another potential merger partner. What kept the CGW from attracting a more suitable parter was the fact that it's routes to certain key cities it served were much longer then other roads and also Winston Tunnel among other reasons. Winston Tunnal was a costly structure for the CGW and needed constant repairs and also had a restrictive clearance. The Chicago line required expensive trackage rights from the Illinois Central to cross the Mississippi river which may be a contributing factor to why other merger talks were not serious.
Interesting you should mention Oneida. Once a bustling railroad town (not only served by CGW but also the Milwaukee Road's branchline between Paralta and Jackson Junction AND the Manchester and Oneida Railroad) it is now practically a ghost town. My father, who grew up on a farm near Oneida told me the story about the CGW at the time they were looking for a location to build their roundhouse. It eventually came down between Oelwein and Oneida with Oelwein ultimately being selected. My father had two relatives that worked for the CGW; one was an engineer that worked between Oelwein and Stockton and the other worked in the roundhouse in Oelwein. I was born too late to really remember the CGW as a true independent but I wish I could have taken shots of it at locations such as Oneida, Almoral (just north of Earlville which is on the IC/ICG/CC/CN) and Thorpe (just north of Manchester).
The info on Winston Tunnel is basically correct--the west end is on Illinois DNR property and is fenced off and the east end is on private property and has been filled in. I've been up to the tunnel on a couple of occassions when the leaves are off the trees--the whole thing is pretty grown in. There was a brick fanhouse at the west portal that was evidently demolished a few years ago by the DNR. It was crumbling and since the area was going to be opened up, the remains were viewed as a hazard and removed. Prior to that (circa 2001 or so) the west portal was still privately owned. The group in Elizabeth, IL knew the owner and were able to take trips up to the tunnel and even had access to it during that time. The tunnel itself is collapased about 600 feet from the western portal. The hill the tunnel was dug through was unstable and it needed almost constant work from the CGW. As for snakes--they might be around up there, but I wouldn't let me stop me from seeing the tunnel.
The Elizabeth Depot Museum is certainly worth a visit if you are interested in the CGW. They have a great collection of displays regarding the tunnel and the Chicago Great Western along with other midwestern railroads.
Lance
MP173 wrote: Is the tunnel you mentioned still there or has it been detunnelled?ed
Is the tunnel you mentioned still there or has it been detunnelled?
I just read on the web that one end of the tunnel is on public property and fenced off and the other end is on private property and the portal is filled in with earth, AND the middle of the half mile long tunnel has since collapsed...also there are lots of rattle snakes in the area so I have no personal interest in seeing the tunnel.
MP173 wrote: Is the tunnel you mentioned still there or has it been detunnelled?
I believe I read that this was the longest of the 8 (?) railroad tunnels in Illinois, and the only other tunnel used by the CGW was IC's across from Dubuque.
http://wikimapia.org/#lat=42.3347237&lon=-90.3681278&z=16&l=0&m=a&v=2
There is a short segment of the main line that still exists from W. Chicago to St Charles, IL. There are a few customers and service is provided as needed. The main line east of Ingalton was used until around the mid-80's to serve the Ovalteen plant in Villa Park. I don't know if there were any other customers served east of Villa Park or what the level of service was. The track, for the most part, was still there until the early 90's before being converted to the Great Western Trail (Eastern Segment).
Looking at the list of those towns in Illinois and there wasnt too much on line traffic they had...not exactly manufacturing hotspots.
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