$170.00 Per Barrel of Oil

[MichaelSol]

Since Michael asked for sourcing, I'll provide a few that he'll not believe:

I didn't ask for sourcing. You did. I provided it. And it wasn't enough, so I provided more. And that wasn't enough, so I provided more again. Now you change the subject ....

I also provided a thorough source for both sides of the debate:

http://climatedebatedaily.com/

I think you've demonstrated that "both sides" is not what you are interested in. Believe me, I've met you people before. Same debate, different era, same people, same magazines predicting our ultimate doom. And you people were just as fervent arguing on the other side.

 

 

[DennisHeld]

I assume you mean over a few millenium, because as of this date there is no "current warming", only current cooling.  But you are correct in that such things are cyclical - not how your phrased it, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

Problem is, since this current warming/cooling trend fits nicely into the long term historical record of cyclicalism, what gives you or anyone else any reason to claim that there is an "imbalance"?  Or are you clinging to the now 100% discredited Mann's "Hockey Stick" graph?

Whatever you do, don't read the 2nd paragraph of the summary:
http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/2007/

[DennisHeld]

I didn't ask for sourcing. You did. I provided it. And it wasn't enough, so I provided more. And that wasn't enough, so I provided more again. Now you change the subject ....

I also provided a thorough source for both sides of the debate:

I think you've demonstrated that "both sides" is not what you are interested in. Believe me, I've met you people before. Same debate, different era, same people, same magazines predicting our ultimate doom. And you people were just as fervent arguing on the other side.

 

 

You're right, you didn't. Mr. Saxon did. (top post, 4th page) And, I could and have argued the under side equally as well. I just chose my arguments based upon the erroneous notion that we know other planets have global warming. Since that is an area of expertise, I took off from there.
BTW, I don't know why or how to 'activate' my links. Sorry.

[Anonymous]

[

I don't know what would be causing a natural warming period, but they have happened in the past in instances such as the Roman Warming and the Little Climate Optimum.  It seems reasonable to believe that a natural warming period would warm the oceans to some extent.  And if it did, it would release more CO2, and some might believe the extra CO2 is man's contribution rather than a natural contribution of the oceans.  Moreover, they might conclude that the extra CO2 is causing the warming when actually the warming might be a natural phenomenon that is causing the extra CO2 to be released from the oceans.

The Roman Warming and the Little Climate Optimum were both caused by unusual solar activity. Solar activity that is currently not happening. Also, the ocean absorbs CO2 largely. And the CO2 levels in the ocean are larger than usual at depths that are unusual.
I'd be happy to buy the warmth causes CO2, but I don't know the the warming mechanism. Except for CO2.

Would you then conclude that it is possible that we are experiencing a naturally caused warming trend even though we don't know the cause?

[chicagorails]

some experts think oil will see 250 next year

[MichaelSol]

I assume you mean over a few millenium, because as of this date there is no "current warming", only current cooling.  But you are correct in that such things are cyclical - not how your phrased it, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

Problem is, since this current warming/cooling trend fits nicely into the long term historical record of cyclicalism, what gives you or anyone else any reason to claim that there is an "imbalance"?  Or are you clinging to the now 100% discredited Mann's "Hockey Stick" graph?

Whatever you do, don't read the 2nd paragraph of the summary:
http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/2007/

Or this:

http://www.john-daly.com/solar/solar.htm

The footnotes therein underscore that much of the Global Warming debate is driven by American -- and international -- politics, and when you get into scientific literature from other countries, the scientific community isn't quite as convinced as the current crop of newsmagazines suggests ... yes, the same newsmagazines that ....

 

[MichaelSol]

The Roman Warming and the Little Climate Optimum were both caused by unusual solar activity. Solar activity that is currently not happening. Also, the ocean absorbs CO2 largely. And the CO2 levels in the ocean are larger than usual at depths that are unusual.
I'd be happy to buy the warmth causes CO2, but I don't know the the warming mechanism. Except for CO2.

There is a connection regarding the bolded comments.

The oceans control the atmosphere, not the other way around. The oceans absorb and store  1,000 times more solar energy than the atmosphere. Global warming, as we have measured it through atmospheric measurements, is not particularly relevant or predictive to CO2 content or to the source of the heating or cooling.

The capacity of the oceans to absorb or release CO2 is relevant to the heat content received from the Sun, or the Earth's internal heating.

When the oceans cool, they absorb CO2. When they heat, they release CO2.

When solar radiation declines, the oceans absorb CO2. When solar radiation increases, they release CO2. This is consistent with your observation, and its no accident. The effect on CO2 content is far greater in either direction than the total contribution of man-caused CO2, and limiting, or expanding, man-caused CO2 emissions will have a temperature effect to the right of the decimal place, since the 1000-fold effect of solar radiation on ocean temperatures and CO2 content renders the effect of Anthropogenic CO2 content statistically irrelevant.

Increased atmospheric CO2 is a result of global warming, not a cause of it.

[greyhounds]

....Runaway oil prices......No simple answer....and it will take a bit of time for it to somehow be figured out and solved.

If it is hurting our people in this country to the point of reducing useage and spending....The Chinese and people of India will sooner or later have to be doing the same thing.

Everyone else can't be having a free ride while we're the only ones suffering....!

Other countries are feeling the price increases too.  Many more than we are.

But there is a simple answer.  It's just not emotionally satisfying.  Demand went up, supply didn't keep pace, that means the price has to go up.

So..Drill Here, Drill Now.  Increasing the supply will control the price.  Nothing else will.

Some government nuts block the development of US resources  because they don't want us using carbon.  (or nuclear)

Again, here's one of those guys:

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqR0Ui0g3wI

Well, until they figure out a way to economically move people and freight without using carbon or nuclear, we've got to use the only available solution.  Drill Here, Drill Now.  As they're doing on private land in North Dakota.

 

[nanaimo73]

Some reading related to the original topic... 

Tough U.S. election talk on oil imports may slow OPEC investment plans-
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20080701.ROPEC01/TPStory/?query=opec

Saudi project key to boosting oil output-
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080630.woilfield0701/BNStory/energy/

Iraq opens bidding on oil, gas fields-
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20080701.RIRAQ01/TPStory/?query=iraq

[Modelcar]

..."Other countries are feeling the price increases too".....Agree, but their economies {as reported}, are still expanding greatly....!  We all know what is happening here.

Please....lets try to keep politics out of it....We still have the back and forth...."The oil co's have thousands and thousands of acres already under lease to drill in"................and "Open up the east and west coast and ANWR"..........It just never ends....the same slogans back and forth.  Can't we do better than that....??  Something REAL...!!

[Anonymous]

..."Other countries are feeling the price increases too".....Agree, but their economies {as reported}, are still expanding greatly....!  We all know what is happening here.

Please....lets try to keep politics out of it....We still have the back and forth...."The oil co's have thousands and thousands of acres already under lease to drill in"................and "Open up the east and west coast and ANWR"..........It just never ends....the same slogans back and forth.  Can't we do better than that....??  Something REAL...!!

What do you mean by, "Something REAL"?

[sfcouple]

..."Other countries are feeling the price increases too".....Agree, but their economies {as reported}, are still expanding greatly....!  We all know what is happening here.

Please....lets try to keep politics out of it....We still have the back and forth...."The oil co's have thousands and thousands of acres already under lease to drill in"................and "Open up the east and west coast and ANWR"..........It just never ends....the same slogans back and forth.  Can't we do better than that....??  Something REAL...!!

Do you think it would be productive or practical for the oil importing countries to work together in a similar manner to the actions of oil exporting countries forming OPEC?   I'm thinking that collectively maybe we could do something??

 

[Modelcar]

....sfcouple:

Yes I do....to answer your question "working together"....There certainly is something OPEC countries have a serious need for that "importing countries produce".....So, bring out the bargining chips...!

On the "What do I mean get real".....For starters, give the slogans a rest and tell the American people the truth, it that's possible  and let us know what really can be done.....The back and forth between this one half and that one half of authorities leaves us right where we've been for some time.  Agree what really we can do to fight this problem, tell the American people....and let everyone know what they possibly can do too.....and let's start doing it.

If it would just have been throwing slogans around back when we were trying to gear up to fight WWII...our efforts would have fallen short.   The whole country pulled together and bingo....we got it done.  Everyone pitched in and the rest is history.

I was a teenager but we as Boy scouts were let out of school to work full days on paper drives....scrap metal round ups...and so on....The whole country geared up to run the mills and factorys with people whom never worked in them before....women, and so on....Everybody had something that could put forth the effort....!

[Anonymous]

....sfcouple:

Yes I do....to answer your question "working together"....There certainly is something OPEC countries have a serious need for that "importing countries produce".....So, bring out the bargining chips...!

On the "What do I mean get real".....For starters, give the slogans a rest and tell the American people the truth, it that's possible  and let us know what really can be done.....The back and forth between this one half and that one half of authorities leaves us right where we've been for some time.  Agree what really we can do to fight this problem, tell the American people....and let everyone know what they possibly can do too.....and let's start doing it.

If it would just have been throwing slogans around back when we were trying to gear up to fight WWII...our efforts would have fallen short.   The whole country pulled together and bingo....we got it done.  Everyone pitched in and the rest is history.

I was a teen ager but we as Boy scouts were let out of school to work full days on paper drives....scrap metal round ups...and so on....The whole country geared up to run the mills and factorys with people whom never worked in them before....women, and so on....Everybody had something that could put forth the effort....!

I am not sure what you mean by slogans, but the reason there is a back and forth is that there is a big difference of opinion on what to do about this issue.  If you are distressed about high gas prices, it is probably easy to believe everybody else feels the same way, so we should all pull together and do something about it.  But I would guess that at least 25% of the population of this county and at least half of our political leadership could not be happier about the high gas prices.  Their only answer is that we need to use less gas even if we have to give up our cars, move back into the city, and use public transportation when we need to go somewhere.  Apparently that is not a satisfactory solution to the other 75% of the people.  I agree that if we were this divided over fighting WWII, we would have lost.  But divided we are today over this energy issue, so it seems to me that the only way it will end is for one side to prevail.

[jwhitten]

 

A fellow club member sent this to me.

Opec sells oil at $136.00 per barrel.

Opec buys U S grain at $7.00 per bushel.

Solution, sell Opec grain for $136.00 per bushel

If they can't affoed it, tough. let them eat thier oil !!!

Dick

Texas Chief

 

[Modelcar]

...I've vented my passion enough.  Just one little thought.  Oil was selling below 5 dollars a bbl some time in the past and I don't remember of it being a liability to a company to be in the oil business.

Some portion of society is making a mockery out of the rest of us {importers}, and we seem to be acting like {less than}, a paper tiger.

[inch53]

Would one of you [with lots a times to push buttons] please tell me what this global warming [or cooling] argument has to do with the original subject of $170 per barrel oil? I sure can't seem to find the connection to it.

Hey just had a thought, maybe if we take care of global warming, my hemorrhoids will quit bothering me. it seems to be the main reason for all the other problems in the world

inch 

[TRAINCATS]

What are all the elected official's we voted for doing? I don't hear a word on what they will be doing about this.

 The Pres just says it is a bump in the economy. My pocket can not handle anymore bumps. I am sure that the Rail Roads are just throwing their hands up in what the cost of fuel and oil will be next year. How do you tell a Rail Road customer what his or her's cost will be? 

[Anonymous]

Would one of you [with lots a times to push buttons] please tell me what this global warming [or cooling] argument has to do with the original subject of $170 per barrel oil? I sure can't seem to find the connection to it.

Hey just had a thought, maybe if we take care of global warming, my hemorrhoids will quit bothering me. it seems to be the main reason for all the other problems in the world

inch 

Well actually the theory of manmade global warming has not had much effect on fuel prices yet because the cap and trade remedy for it has not yet been institutionalized into law.  However, when it is, it will make this current little flap over inconvenient gas prices seem like a walk in the woods.

[greyhounds]

What are all the elected official's we voted for doing? I don't hear a word on what they will be doing about this.

 The Pres just says it is a bump in the economy. My pocket can not handle anymore bumps. I am sure that the Rail Roads are just throwing their hands up in what the cost of fuel and oil will be next year. How do you tell a Rail Road customer what his or her's cost will be? 

Well, you gotta' pay more attention.

They're doin' plenty, and what they're doing is pretty much calculated to keep fuel prices high.  It ain't "The Pres" and I don't think he ever said no such thing.  It's the "other guys" who are blocking increased supply, which is the only way to control the prices.

[Norman Saxon]

I assume you mean over a few millenium, because as of this date there is no "current warming", only current cooling.  But you are correct in that such things are cyclical - not how your phrased it, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

Problem is, since this current warming/cooling trend fits nicely into the long term historical record of cyclicalism, what gives you or anyone else any reason to claim that there is an "imbalance"?  Or are you clinging to the now 100% discredited Mann's "Hockey Stick" graph?

Whatever you do, don't read the 2nd paragraph of the summary:
http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/2007/

Better yet, let's all read a critical audit of James Hansen et al at NASA's GISS:

http://www.climateaudit.org/

It's amazing to find that all the major global temperature recording organizations, except James Hansen's GISS bunch, show both a cooling trend and no out of balance variation over the years!

Anyone else here agree that James Hansen will be spending his twilight years in federal prison?

[Norman Saxon]

For those of you who claim that the Arctic ice sheet will disappear this summer, here's a real time satellite image:

http://rapidfire.sci.gsfc.nasa.gov/realtime/single.php?2008181/crefl1_143.A2008181053500-2008181053959.4km.jpg

As of today, July 2, the middle of summer, the ice sheet is overwhelming with no discernable break ups.  Let's check back in a month and see if things have changed appreciably.  I'll wager against those who think it'll melt away just because some AGW disciple claims so on CNN or one of the other leftist news orgs.

[selector]

Gentlemen, and any ladies who may have participated and/or looked on, I have enjoyed this thread for the most part.  It has had its moments, some enlightening, if for no other reason than they pointed out how serious this topic can/should be.

The fact is, it has pretty much run its course, has gotten repetitive, and is well off topic.  So, the indulgence has come to an end.

-Crandell