GM to Close Four Truck Plants

[Ted Marshall]

Here's the article:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/04/business/04motors.html?partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

[greyhounds]

Here's the article:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/04/business/04motors.html?partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

So, just where does Ford build trucks in Wisconsin?

Will this GM plant closure mean the end for the UP line to Janesville?  I don't see any reason for the railroad to keep the line after GM closes.

AFAIK, there were two assembly plants in Wisconsin.  Chrysler at Kenosha and GM at Janesville.  I think Chrysler still makes engines in Kenosha, but their vehicle assembly operation has been long gone.  With Janesville closing that's the last of vehicle assembly in Wisconsin except for Oshkosh with its namesake heavy duty trucks, the farm equipment out of Racine, and the John Deere yard tractor/"Gator" plant in Horicon.

Does Ford own Oshkosh (the company, not the city)?  Or is there a truck plant I don't know about?  I can't believe the New York Times would error.

[railfan619]

I don't think that ford has any plants in wisconsin. But Gm does have a plant in Janesville where they build the famous Chevy trucks. That everyone just loves to drive Also Oshkosh truck up in Oshkosh builds fire trucks and heavy duty military trucks for over seas. Also We do have Case tractor in Racine. Which is serviced by Cp rail.

[Ishmael]

On the 5 O'clock news it was mentioned that the GM truck plant in Wentzville, MO would stay open, but would convert to making an economy car. This would obviously not need as many workers, raw material, or RR shipments.

That is a gigantic facility. Not only does it have a yard bigger than many cities, but the surrounding towns have had a real estate boom from people moving in to work in the GM plant.

Ah, progress.

[CShaveRR]

I, personally, won't see too much of a change.  The Janesville plant will be closed in 2010, according to reports, and I'll probably be retired by then.  UP runs two daily trains to Janesville right now, and most of the business on them is for the GM plant.  There is other business, though, and you can be sure that UP will weigh the profitibility of handling it.  UP has, in the past, leased lines to Wisconsin & Southern--the line from Janesville to Madison being one of them.  You might find one WSOR train, five days a week, running directly into and out of Proviso.  Or not.

[Modelcar]

....Used to be in the saying..."As GM goes, so goes the nation" {economically}.....Terrible, but it actually seems we're almost in line to do it again....!  Only this time....down, down and farther down.....

Would be nice to see a turning point, but really don't see too much to "hang our hats on yet....".

Our big companies have recently redesigned their full size trucks and now to see their efforts {and money}, to be going down the drain is less than than good.  Trucks, {lack of}, a good money maker for the big companies will be hurting their bottom line even more so now.....

[WSOR 3801]

The UP Janesville-Madison line is not really intact at this point.  UP goes to Evansville.  Brooklyn or Oregon have crossings paved over, and a bridge that got hit by a cement truck.  The WSOR leases the Madison-Reedsburg line.  Might have to look at a map to see how the Harvard Sub could connect to Clearing...The UP Janesville yard has a lot of room in it, compared to the WSOR yard. 

If the GM plant gets removed, maybe the "gauntlet" through the plant can be straightened out.  The mainline has a nasty kink in it, so the plant could add some truck docks.  Used to be a nice gentle curve.  The work was done when the normal train was about 10 cars.  Now there are 100+ car trains snaking through there. 

 

[eolafan]

Sadly, this is yet another example of what happens when America's corporate leaders introduce products that they think we all want rather than taking the time and trouble to make sure they are right...and also looking well into the future when engaging in contemplation.

On a bright note, you will be pleased to know that TRAINS magazine holds regular "subscriber focus groups" to find our what all of us REALLY think about their product.

[nanaimo73]

....Used to be in the saying..."As GM goes, so goes the nation" {economically}.....Terrible, but it actually seems we're almost in line to do it again....!

And now it looks like a Toyota will win the NASCAR championship.

In this part of the world, most women commute back and forth to work in SUVs, most of which never get off pavement.

[Convicted One]

No doubt the SUV will make a HUGE comeback, the day that a Chinese company begins producing one.

[jeaton]

This is a very big blow for Janesville and the surrounding area.  The payroll for the 2600 jobs at the plant would be on the order of $200 million.  There could easily be another 500 area jobs lost at companies tied directly to the plant and then there will be the ripple effect.

It will be interesting to see how the UP responds.  No doubt the two trains a day of autos and auto parts allowed the Harvard to Janesville line to be kept in good shape.  When the plant closes, it is possible that there will be zero traffic beyond Clinton, WI.  As to other uses for the line-time will tell.

 

[zardoz]

I think Chrysler still makes engines in Kenosha, but their vehicle assembly operation has been long gone. 

Correct, they still make small V-6 engines in Kenosha. No rail access--all done by truck.  The rail access to the plant was removed a few years ago.  And to think, when I started on the CNW (1973), there were 5 12-hour jobs in Kenosha just to serve the AMC facilities, as well as a 12-track yard in the middle of town for staging cars for AMC, and a 6-track yard on the lakefront for the assembly plant there.

(Historians note: the North Shore's main line used to run right through the middle of the AMC [Nash] factory.  There are still remnants of the track through the plant, as well as just north of the facility).

There used to be a GM truck frame assembly factory in Milwaukee that shipped on the CP, but I haven't seen a frame go by in quite a few years.

[Modelcar]

.....Dale....I agree it is entirely possible as you say, a Toyota can win the championship this season....Seems though, in Nascar...that's the way it works.  A certain team gets on a roll and nothing....really seems like nothing, can stop their progress.  This year it's the JGR orginization that can't be stopped and that's Toyota.

Last year it was Hendrick and that is Chevrolet...etc....

As for SUV's......The hand writing is on the wall.....If oil prices remain extremely high....It's curtains for the biggest of those models.  That means real trouble for GM, Ford...etc....as they {models}, produce the most profit.

I see oil was "down" to $122 / bbl earlier this morning but not enough time has passed yet to see if this is a trend or just a blip.

What's next for our massive auto industry....In my opinion, they will become much smaller in size....Much smaller.  And the majority mix of production vehicles will be switching to autos....More efficient autos...Hybrids, and just overall vehicles that will be designed to be much more fuel efficient.

[vsmith]

Gas? we dont need no stinking gas!

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2005/01/minicat_air_pow.php

A sign of the future? If I could get my hands on one, I'd give it a try!

[nanaimo73]

As for SUV's......The hand writing is on the wall.....If oil prices remain extremely high....It's curtains for the biggest of those models.

The people that drive the high-end SUVs don't seem to mind high gas prices. Perhaps they will keep driving them just to show off.

[carnej1]

.....Dale....I agree it is entirely possible as you say, a Toyota can win the championship this season....Seems though, in Nascar...that's the way it works.  A certain team gets on a roll and nothing....really seems like nothing, can stop their progress.  This year it's the JGR orginization that can't be stopped and that's Toyota.

Last year it was Hendrick and that is Chevrolet...etc....

As for SUV's......The hand writing is on the wall.....If oil prices remain extremely high....It's curtains for the biggest of those models.  That means real trouble for GM, Ford...etc....as they {models}, produce the most profit.

I see oil was "down" to $122 / bbl earlier this morning but not enough time has passed yet to see if this is a trend or just a blip.

What's next for our massive auto industry....In my opinion, they will become much smaller in size....Much smaller.  And the majority mix of production vehicles will be switching to autos....More efficient autos...Hybrids, and just overall vehicles that will be designed to be much more fuel efficient.

 Although I sympathize with the sentiments about Toyota in NASCAR I would point out that from a purely technical point of view there is very little actual Toyota designed technology in a "Toyota" Sprint cup car. The engine for instance is basically an evolved copy of a 1960's GM smallblock (there is nothing "stock" anymore about so-called stockcars). With the new "Car of Tomorrow" rules there are not great differences in the actual parts that the vehicles use. The cars have almost nothing in common mechanically with the production vehicles they are named after. Many people are surprised to learn that Sprint cup cars actually use "older" engine technology than current production vehicles i.e Pushrod (rather than overhead cam) V8's with good ole' Holley Carburators rather than electronic fuel injection .  The stated reason is that the engine formula is easier to "police" for rules compliance and offers superior reliability for the type of racing predominate in NASCAR (i.e long oval track races where the engine runs at full throttle most of the time)..

[Ted Marshall]

The people that drive the high-end SUVs don't seem to mind high gas prices. Perhaps they will keep driving them just to show off.

That seems to be the case here in Naples, FL. Many well-to-do residents here drive Escalades, Tahoes, Suburbans as well as the massive behemoth Excursion regularly, often solo too. There's no shortage of these gas-guzzling monsters on our roads here and with gas at $4.02/gal. and diesel at $4.75/gal these people literaly have money-to-burn.

[vsmith]

.....Dale....I agree it is entirely possible as you say, a Toyota can win the championship this season....Seems though, in Nascar...that's the way it works.  A certain team gets on a roll and nothing....really seems like nothing, can stop their progress.  This year it's the JGR orginization that can't be stopped and that's Toyota.

Last year it was Hendrick and that is Chevrolet...etc....

As for SUV's......The hand writing is on the wall.....If oil prices remain extremely high....It's curtains for the biggest of those models.  That means real trouble for GM, Ford...etc....as they {models}, produce the most profit.

I see oil was "down" to $122 / bbl earlier this morning but not enough time has passed yet to see if this is a trend or just a blip.

What's next for our massive auto industry....In my opinion, they will become much smaller in size....Much smaller.  And the majority mix of production vehicles will be switching to autos....More efficient autos...Hybrids, and just overall vehicles that will be designed to be much more fuel efficient.

 Although I sympathize with the sentiments about Toyota in NASCAR I would point out that from a purely technical point of view there is very little actual Toyota designed technology in a "Toyota" Sprint cup car. The engine for instance is basically an evolved copy of a 1960's GM smallblock (there is nothing "stock" anymore about so-called stockcars). With the new "Car of Tomorrow" rules there are not great differences in the actual parts that the vehicles use. The cars have almost nothing in common mechanically with the production vehicles they are named after. Many people are surprised to learn that Sprint cup cars actually use "older" engine technology than current production vehicles i.e Pushrod (rather than overhead cam) V8's with good ole' Holley Carburators rather than electronic fuel injection .  The stated reason is that the engine formula is easier to "police" for rules compliance and offers superior reliability for the type of racing predominate in NASCAR (i.e long oval track races where the engine runs at full throttle most of the time)..

Anyone else notice how many cars had Honda powerplants in this years Indy 500 ?

[carnej1]

.....Dale....I agree it is entirely possible as you say, a Toyota can win the championship this season....Seems though, in Nascar...that's the way it works.  A certain team gets on a roll and nothing....really seems like nothing, can stop their progress.  This year it's the JGR orginization that can't be stopped and that's Toyota.

Last year it was Hendrick and that is Chevrolet...etc....

As for SUV's......The hand writing is on the wall.....If oil prices remain extremely high....It's curtains for the biggest of those models.  That means real trouble for GM, Ford...etc....as they {models}, produce the most profit.

I see oil was "down" to $122 / bbl earlier this morning but not enough time has passed yet to see if this is a trend or just a blip.

What's next for our massive auto industry....In my opinion, they will become much smaller in size....Much smaller.  And the majority mix of production vehicles will be switching to autos....More efficient autos...Hybrids, and just overall vehicles that will be designed to be much more fuel efficient.

 Although I sympathize with the sentiments about Toyota in NASCAR I would point out that from a purely technical point of view there is very little actual Toyota designed technology in a "Toyota" Sprint cup car. The engine for instance is basically an evolved copy of a 1960's GM smallblock (there is nothing "stock" anymore about so-called stockcars). With the new "Car of Tomorrow" rules there are not great differences in the actual parts that the vehicles use. The cars have almost nothing in common mechanically with the production vehicles they are named after. Many people are surprised to learn that Sprint cup cars actually use "older" engine technology than current production vehicles i.e Pushrod (rather than overhead cam) V8's with good ole' Holley Carburators rather than electronic fuel injection .  The stated reason is that the engine formula is easier to "police" for rules compliance and offers superior reliability for the type of racing predominate in NASCAR (i.e long oval track races where the engine runs at full throttle most of the time)..

Anyone else notice how many cars had Honda powerplants in this years Indy 500 ?

 Yes. Every single car in the field had a Honda Engine. Honda is the exclusive engine supplier to the Indy Racing league until 2009. The American Manufacturers currently don't seem to be interested in building IRL engines because they don't feel that the sport has enough of a fanbase outside of the "big race" (indy)....

[SALfan]

Sadly, this is yet another example of what happens when America's corporate leaders introduce products that they think we all want rather than taking the time and trouble to make sure they are right...and also looking well into the future when engaging in contemplation.

On a bright note, you will be pleased to know that TRAINS magazine holds regular "subscriber focus groups" to find our what all of us REALLY think about their product.

WRONG!!  Until sometime within the last year, big vehicles (trucks and truck-based vehicles) were selling like hotcakes.  They were more profitable than small cars, so the American companies were all too happy to make and sell them.  Small cars didn't sell all that well.  Okay, gas prices have caused customers to change the kinds of vehicles they want.  GM (and Ford and Chrysler) are reacting to that change in customer preference.  Could the American companies have done a better job of anticipating customers' preferences down the road?  Maybe, but not producing large vehicles when they are selling well is a way to go broke quickly. 

[Modelcar]

....I really don't know just where the engine design that Toyota is using in Nascar comes from.  I'm totally unaware of any {V8},cam in block that Toyota is using in production for consumption in this country.  Such as required in Sprint Cup Nascar. Engine specs. use to be more specific to each make and engine design....Personally, I liked that approach better....More identity to each brand. 

I basically agree with most of the posts in this area regarding the "parts" have small resemblence to the production vehicle....Any brand.  Costs were getting way out of site and specs. were written to try to hold the line so more could compete....In other words, no electronic fuel injection and so on....Just the "old" carbs for the induction side.

I believe the COT has showed great benefits in the area of safety...Example:  A few races back...{believe it was Darlington}, Kile Busch banged his car into the wall {several times}, and with the "old" designs he would have been out of the race or 100 laps down before they could have put the car back on the track and he remained competitive.....Not sure, but believe he even won the race....!  Of course the new design eliminated many areas of "tweaking" that brought the cars even closer to being similar now too....

And that story goes on and on....

[Anonymous]

Meanwhile, Toyota continues to produce its Tundra Pickups out of the new San Antonio assembly facility.

Have not heard of any cutbacks from that plant, but I'm sure its only a matter of time before that happens.

I also heard on the radio that Kia is going to be producing cars here in the US...imagine that!

 

[Modelcar]

......There's a pic. of the Kia prototype truck in the new issue Motor Trend.

[Modelcar]

....I believe whom ever is driving the "big" SUV's now will eventually take "notice" as to how the value is dropping on them.  No matter where they stand on the economic totem pole.  They won't want to purchase something that will drop in value so drastically as soon as it's driven out the dealer door either.

So...it will effect all range of purchases of the "large ones".

Most of them {well to do folks}, didn't become affluent by being dense or stupid.

[MP173]

I have a big SUV and make no apologies about driving it ( Jeep Commander).  I have to accept the 16mpg for what it is.  It is part of the tradeoffs I made in the purchase, needing a larger type vehicle to accomodate my 6'7" frame (try fitting in the smaller vehicles at that size).  Plus, typically I would have 300-600 pounds of work related material to haul.

The SUV is paid off and really doesnt cost much for me to drive, other than fuel, so it will stay in the garage and on the road until it is time to buy a new vehicle.  I probably wont even attempt to sell it, keeping it as a second vehicle, unless values return.

It would be great to have a mid sized SUV, giving the flexibility to haul "stuff" with decent head and leg room and 25-30mpg.  Anyone know if that is out there.  The gf has a Honda Element and thinks that might work for me.

ed

[blhanel]

I don't know how comfortable it would be for you or me, Ed (I'm 6'5"), but I'd take a serious look at the Ford Escape Hybrid.

[vsmith]

I used to own a '04 Nissan Frontier Crewcab, got 17mpg and at under $3 it wasnt painful to own, but when gas prices 1st began to rise back in 2005 and peaked at $3.50 here, I began paying attention to the oil predictions, all the talk about China, India, and the tremendous increase in demand that those countries were was beginning to wrought on the market, I was convinced it was time to sell off the big truck while I could still get maximum value for it.

I now own a '06 Scion Xb at 32mpg, I'm 6' and 250 and I find it has more interior room than the truck did and a far better ride to boot! For the last year I have been telling anyone who'll listen if you own a giant species SUV or truck and its not a work required vehicle, if your feeling a serious pinch filling it, to get rid of it, now, while you can still get something for it, cause its going to be a total white elephant if gas does indeed reach $5. Those who wait till gas hits $5 and then decide to downsize it may find they have depreciated so much that they might as well park it in the backyard and use it as a toolshed.

 

[carnej1]

....I really don't know just where the engine design that Toyota is using in Nascar comes from.  I'm totally unaware of any {V8},cam in block that Toyota is using in production for consumption in this country.  Such as required in Sprint Cup Nascar. Engine specs. use to be more specific to each make and engine design....Personally, I liked that approach better....More identity to each brand. 

I basically agree with most of the posts in this area regarding the "parts" have small resemblence to the production vehicle....Any brand.  Costs were getting way out of site and specs. were written to try to hold the line so more could compete....In other words, no electronic fuel injection and so on....Just the "old" carbs for the induction side.

I believe the COT has showed great benefits in the area of safety...Example:  A few races back...{believe it was Darlington}, Kile Busch banged his car into the wall {several times}, and with the "old" designs he would have been out of the race or 100 laps down before they could have put the car back on the track and he remained competitive.....Not sure, but believe he even won the race....!  Of course the new design eliminated many areas of "tweaking" that brought the cars even closer to being similar now too....

And that story goes on and on....

 As I posted previously the Toyota SPRINT cup engine has 0% commonality with any of their production engines and is in fact based on the old GM's. I'm not aware that they manufacture anything other than overhead cam engines anywhere in the world.

 Although I personally think it would be interesting for NASCAR to return to using production derived engines, the sanctioning body has proven that the engine formula and car specs offer great reliability and do a good job in keeping costs down (relatively speaking of course).

 Frankly the "archaic" aspects of Cup racing that annoy me are the continued use of lug nuts rather than hub nuts (which offer faster tire changing times and are safer, especially when used with a wheel tether). I also think they should go to a modern pressurized refueling systems (though I grant that they have a good safety record with the can system.....   

[carnej1]

Sadly, this is yet another example of what happens when America's corporate leaders introduce products that they think we all want rather than taking the time and trouble to make sure they are right...and also looking well into the future when engaging in contemplation.

On a bright note, you will be pleased to know that TRAINS magazine holds regular "subscriber focus groups" to find our what all of us REALLY think about their product.

WRONG!!  Until sometime within the last year, big vehicles (trucks and truck-based vehicles) were selling like hotcakes.  They were more profitable than small cars, so the American companies were all too happy to make and sell them.  Small cars didn't sell all that well.  Okay, gas prices have caused customers to change the kinds of vehicles they want.  GM (and Ford and Chrysler) are reacting to that change in customer preference.  Could the American companies have done a better job of anticipating customers' preferences down the road?  Maybe, but not producing large vehicles when they are selling well is a way to go broke quickly. 

 Given that both Ford and GM compete very succesfully in the (economy) automobile market internationally (Europe and Australia come to mind) with designs built "over there" one would think that they could have reacted faster to the change in vehicle preference. It's not like they didn't have good vehicle designs for the Automobile segment of the market....

[SALfan]

Sadly, this is yet another example of what happens when America's corporate leaders introduce products that they think we all want rather than taking the time and trouble to make sure they are right...and also looking well into the future when engaging in contemplation.

On a bright note, you will be pleased to know that TRAINS magazine holds regular "subscriber focus groups" to find our what all of us REALLY think about their product.

WRONG!!  Until sometime within the last year, big vehicles (trucks and truck-based vehicles) were selling like hotcakes.  They were more profitable than small cars, so the American companies were all too happy to make and sell them.  Small cars didn't sell all that well.  Okay, gas prices have caused customers to change the kinds of vehicles they want.  GM (and Ford and Chrysler) are reacting to that change in customer preference.  Could the American companies have done a better job of anticipating customers' preferences down the road?  Maybe, but not producing large vehicles when they are selling well is a way to go broke quickly. 

 Given that both Ford and GM compete very succesfully in the (economy) automobile market internationally (Europe and Australia come to mind) with designs built "over there" one would think that they could have reacted faster to the change in vehicle preference. It's not like they didn't have good vehicle designs for the Automobile segment of the market....

AMEN.  Ford refuses to sell the European Focus here, although from what I've read it is far superior to the American version.  Ford does sell the Fusion/Mercury whatever twins here, which are built on the Mazda 6 platform.  The Escape/Mariner is also a Mazda design (Ford owns a chunk of Mazda).

GM is selling as (I believe) the Pontiac G6 a vehicle designed and built by Holden, their Aussie subsidiary.  The relatively new Saturn Aura and another Saturn vehicle are an Opel (German subsidiary) design.