Greyhound:I really enjoyed your commentary on the Iowa Division. Thanks for the description. How much of the traffic on that line was off the UP? 50%?
You mentioned coming down the hill at Dubuque. That city is really a fascinating railroad route. Probably not very efficient, but from a fan standpoint, it sure is neat. As a side note, back in 1993 I was in Dubuque on business and was amazed to see the water level creeping higher by the minute at the US61 overpass south of the city. By the next morning the water level was over the rails.
What kind of grade was that going west out of Dubuque? Was it much of a challenge (as in trains stalling)? The tunnel and crossing at East Dubuque had a very unique feel.
ed
greyhounds wrote: Los Angeles Rams Guy wrote: Interesting you should mention that as I remember seeing from time to time grain trailers moving as TOFC on ICG's "CC1" train through Manchester back in the late 70's or early-mid 80's. It's about the only right thing ICG did in its otherwise drive all business off on the Iowa Division-plan before Jack Haley bought the Iowa Division in '85. Harsh dude, very harsh.We tried. That was, and still is I hope, a well maintained rail line.I was riding the 2nd engine on CC-6 one night east from Waterloo. We had an old engineer who had about six more runs before retirement. We left Waterloo and he took that train up to 69 MPH, then we'd drop back to 67, then back up to 69. He ran like that almost to Dubuque where he had to slow down to get down the hill to the river and cross the bridge.Quite the ride though an Iowa night.To market the line we did things like establish twice daily service between Chicago and the UP at Council Bluffs. The trains made decent time. Eastbound freight was comming into Markham yard. Markham had two humps, a northbound hump and a southbound hump. The northbound hump classified cars for eastern connections. All freight in from Iowa was going to the southbound hump. This meant it had to be rehumped to go on east. We got Council Bluffs to make two Markham blocks, one for each hump. By bypassing the southbound hump for traffic moving east we saved a day or so on transit via the ICG.We did what we could. A good part of the line's traffic base was 1) UP interchange and 2) packing house products. The UP got in bed with the C&NW so that hurt. The meat went to trucks largely due to stupid Federal economic regulations and union work rules that required 16-20 crewmembers to move a train 500 miles. Those things were out of our control.The UP traffic is gone forever. But if you were to take a map and draw a line from Waterloo, IA to Sioux Falls, SD, then to Freemont, NE, then to Marshalltown, IA, then back to Waterloo, you would have drawn a line around about 1/3 of the pork production in the US. There are also five significant beef plants in roughly the same area. Each of these beef plants kills 3,500-6,000 cattle per day. The meat is shipped long distances by truck to populaiton centers on the coasts. The railroad can now get back a good portion of that meat business.
Los Angeles Rams Guy wrote: Interesting you should mention that as I remember seeing from time to time grain trailers moving as TOFC on ICG's "CC1" train through Manchester back in the late 70's or early-mid 80's. It's about the only right thing ICG did in its otherwise drive all business off on the Iowa Division-plan before Jack Haley bought the Iowa Division in '85.
Interesting you should mention that as I remember seeing from time to time grain trailers moving as TOFC on ICG's "CC1" train through Manchester back in the late 70's or early-mid 80's. It's about the only right thing ICG did in its otherwise drive all business off on the Iowa Division-plan before Jack Haley bought the Iowa Division in '85.
Harsh dude, very harsh.
We tried. That was, and still is I hope, a well maintained rail line.
I was riding the 2nd engine on CC-6 one night east from Waterloo. We had an old engineer who had about six more runs before retirement. We left Waterloo and he took that train up to 69 MPH, then we'd drop back to 67, then back up to 69. He ran like that almost to Dubuque where he had to slow down to get down the hill to the river and cross the bridge.
Quite the ride though an Iowa night.
To market the line we did things like establish twice daily service between Chicago and the UP at Council Bluffs. The trains made decent time.
Eastbound freight was comming into Markham yard. Markham had two humps, a northbound hump and a southbound hump. The northbound hump classified cars for eastern connections. All freight in from Iowa was going to the southbound hump. This meant it had to be rehumped to go on east. We got Council Bluffs to make two Markham blocks, one for each hump. By bypassing the southbound hump for traffic moving east we saved a day or so on transit via the ICG.
We did what we could.
A good part of the line's traffic base was 1) UP interchange and 2) packing house products. The UP got in bed with the C&NW so that hurt. The meat went to trucks largely due to stupid Federal economic regulations and union work rules that required 16-20 crewmembers to move a train 500 miles. Those things were out of our control.
The UP traffic is gone forever. But if you were to take a map and draw a line from Waterloo, IA to Sioux Falls, SD, then to Freemont, NE, then to Marshalltown, IA, then back to Waterloo, you would have drawn a line around about 1/3 of the pork production in the US. There are also five significant beef plants in roughly the same area. Each of these beef plants kills 3,500-6,000 cattle per day.
The meat is shipped long distances by truck to populaiton centers on the coasts. The railroad can now get back a good portion of that meat business.
Didn't mean to sound harsh. It's just that as a railfan living close to the ICG back in the late 70's and early 80's it was incredibly frustrating to see a once-proud railroad going to hell. I can remember (as a little kid anyway) watching the "Hawkeye" passenger train and the meat trains coming through Manchester from my Aunt and Uncle's house. I also knew quite a few IC/ICG employees as I got a little older and remember vividly the stories they used to tell me of how the meat trains were the hottest thing on the Iowa Division. At one time, in fact, the IC/ICG mainline across Iowa was coined "the Mainline Of Meat". One time when I went to Waterloo to fill out an application with the ICG, one ICG employee dejectedly told me, "There's more meat in your refrigerator than what we carry now."
But I'd also like to think that your prognostications about possibly recapturing some of that traffic could come true. And no doubt with the flexibility of intermodal that would be the ideal way to go to recapture some of that traffic. Hopefully the CN will be aggressive enough and go after this. If the potential is there, I think they would.
True, there is some mixes of traffic out there that are more suited for truckers that would be difficult, at best, for the railroads to try and make inroads on. But there is also traffic out there that the railroads can get if they market there services and DELIVER on them.
Last Chance wrote: I dont have issues with Intermodal Ship Boxes. I started off with those and some had thier own chassis with reefers under. Used to run Crab out of the Chesapeake to the seaport.Ok, I agree, Intermodal with drayage will work very well for the meat plants. It will free up the "Big" reefers like the 48's and 53's for more productive work in same time frame elsewhere.It would be so easy to throw down some ramps in the west, lay track somewhere close the the plant and make it happen. The drivers waiting for thier own loads could run dray rates to and from plant to railhead for a few per day while waiting and make a dollar to boot.
I dont have issues with Intermodal Ship Boxes. I started off with those and some had thier own chassis with reefers under. Used to run Crab out of the Chesapeake to the seaport.
Ok, I agree, Intermodal with drayage will work very well for the meat plants. It will free up the "Big" reefers like the 48's and 53's for more productive work in same time frame elsewhere.
It would be so easy to throw down some ramps in the west, lay track somewhere close the the plant and make it happen. The drivers waiting for thier own loads could run dray rates to and from plant to railhead for a few per day while waiting and make a dollar to boot.
No, I think the meat will move in 53' reefer containers. We're not going to run empty all the way back and 53' will be needed for the backhaul.
Neither will any track need to be put down. All we need is an unused yard or side track near the packing house. The packing houses are already rail served to handle by products. We don't even need ramps. Use of bimodal chassis will preclude that.
This is a hanging curveball and the railroads have a big bat.
greyhounds wrote:I don't think we'll see large volumes of domestic meat moving in refrigerated railcars. It'll go intermodal.
I don't think we'll see large volumes of domestic meat moving in refrigerated railcars. It'll go intermodal.
I agree that is more likely.
RWM
Last Chance wrote: The thought of dozens of railcars being washed, sanitized and reloaded in days at the Meat Plants out there in Meat Country is a thought that worries me.What people dont understand is that when you bring in a empty reefer into a meat plant to be loaded, you are given a place to wait, your trailer sent to be washed (While you arrange payment) and then sent to be loaded.That loading will take 2,3 or 4 days. That includes night and day. You sit. If you were a husband/wife team you arranged a regional run to zip around the area running other trailers to make money or rescue singles who are late with thier deliveries while the one meat load is loading. With a 1000 mile range every 24 hours, teams can break the clock and make it happen.If a railroad sent all these cars to be loaded that slowly, it would not work well. Sure, it can be done, just add some track and rail docks and man it with migrants or other maginal populations willing to work in those kind of places.Trucking's demise is something that will never happen. A thought of the USA without trucking is also a vision of a Nation in arnachy and martial law.
The thought of dozens of railcars being washed, sanitized and reloaded in days at the Meat Plants out there in Meat Country is a thought that worries me.
What people dont understand is that when you bring in a empty reefer into a meat plant to be loaded, you are given a place to wait, your trailer sent to be washed (While you arrange payment) and then sent to be loaded.
That loading will take 2,3 or 4 days. That includes night and day. You sit. If you were a husband/wife team you arranged a regional run to zip around the area running other trailers to make money or rescue singles who are late with thier deliveries while the one meat load is loading. With a 1000 mile range every 24 hours, teams can break the clock and make it happen.
If a railroad sent all these cars to be loaded that slowly, it would not work well. Sure, it can be done, just add some track and rail docks and man it with migrants or other maginal populations willing to work in those kind of places.
Trucking's demise is something that will never happen. A thought of the USA without trucking is also a vision of a Nation in arnachy and martial law.
The situation described by Last Chance favors intermodal over trucking because the intermodal carrier doesn't have to leave drivers with the trailers/containers. Just establish a pool at the slaughterhouse. When a load is ready just get a local drayman to grab it and bring it to the ramp.
greyhounds wrote: passengerfan wrote: Many years ago I was in the trucking industry as an owner operator and after loading my trailer using a rental tractor while waiting for mine undergoing a major overhaul in eastern Canada for a trip to Vancouver I received the bad news that my tractor was not going to be ready in time for the trip. I contacted the railroad about transporting my trailer to Vancouver and within hours after loading it was on its way west. I used the same railroads airline five days later to fly out rent a truck and unload my trailer. I reloaded using the rental tractor back to Toronto and once again flew home to Toronto and waited for my trailer. By that time my tractor was waiting for me and I unloaded when it returned to Toronto. If the company I had worked for had spotted that trailer on the railcar I would have been terminated. There were no damages to any of the shipments and inspite of all of the expenses incurred I made more money on that trip than I would have had I driven all the way. And I got to spend more time with my family and that time was priceless. That was when I decided it was time for me to look at something else for a living. Oh and I might mention that the trailer arrived at both destinations still clean. If I had driven it I would have had to wash the rig at both ends another expense I did not have to incur.Al - in - Stockton Well, good. Now think about how much money you would have made as an o/o if you would have brought two trailers to the railhead in Toronto. Then grabbed a third load and driven it west. You deliver your over the road load, then go get the TOFC loads and deliver them. Then load two on the rail east and drive one back. Repeat the delivery process for the three trailers in Toronto.You'd save the air fare and get paid for three loads while driving one.Marx Truck Line out of Sioux City, Iowa used to do that on the ICG. They were bringing grain in to the Port of Chicago. They'd load two open tops of grain on a flatcar in Sioux City and the railroad would move them to Chicago. Then the driver would drive a load to Chicago, make the deliveries, grab any available reloads, and repeat the process back to Sioux City. It worked fine.How could the railroads market this to owner operators who are going broke paying $4.70/gallon for diesel?
passengerfan wrote: Many years ago I was in the trucking industry as an owner operator and after loading my trailer using a rental tractor while waiting for mine undergoing a major overhaul in eastern Canada for a trip to Vancouver I received the bad news that my tractor was not going to be ready in time for the trip. I contacted the railroad about transporting my trailer to Vancouver and within hours after loading it was on its way west. I used the same railroads airline five days later to fly out rent a truck and unload my trailer. I reloaded using the rental tractor back to Toronto and once again flew home to Toronto and waited for my trailer. By that time my tractor was waiting for me and I unloaded when it returned to Toronto. If the company I had worked for had spotted that trailer on the railcar I would have been terminated. There were no damages to any of the shipments and inspite of all of the expenses incurred I made more money on that trip than I would have had I driven all the way. And I got to spend more time with my family and that time was priceless. That was when I decided it was time for me to look at something else for a living. Oh and I might mention that the trailer arrived at both destinations still clean. If I had driven it I would have had to wash the rig at both ends another expense I did not have to incur.Al - in - Stockton
Many years ago I was in the trucking industry as an owner operator and after loading my trailer using a rental tractor while waiting for mine undergoing a major overhaul in eastern Canada for a trip to Vancouver I received the bad news that my tractor was not going to be ready in time for the trip. I contacted the railroad about transporting my trailer to Vancouver and within hours after loading it was on its way west. I used the same railroads airline five days later to fly out rent a truck and unload my trailer. I reloaded using the rental tractor back to Toronto and once again flew home to Toronto and waited for my trailer. By that time my tractor was waiting for me and I unloaded when it returned to Toronto. If the company I had worked for had spotted that trailer on the railcar I would have been terminated. There were no damages to any of the shipments and inspite of all of the expenses incurred I made more money on that trip than I would have had I driven all the way. And I got to spend more time with my family and that time was priceless. That was when I decided it was time for me to look at something else for a living. Oh and I might mention that the trailer arrived at both destinations still clean. If I had driven it I would have had to wash the rig at both ends another expense I did not have to incur.
Al - in - Stockton
Well, good. Now think about how much money you would have made as an o/o if you would have brought two trailers to the railhead in Toronto. Then grabbed a third load and driven it west. You deliver your over the road load, then go get the TOFC loads and deliver them. Then load two on the rail east and drive one back. Repeat the delivery process for the three trailers in Toronto.
You'd save the air fare and get paid for three loads while driving one.
Marx Truck Line out of Sioux City, Iowa used to do that on the ICG. They were bringing grain in to the Port of Chicago. They'd load two open tops of grain on a flatcar in Sioux City and the railroad would move them to Chicago. Then the driver would drive a load to Chicago, make the deliveries, grab any available reloads, and repeat the process back to Sioux City. It worked fine.
How could the railroads market this to owner operators who are going broke paying $4.70/gallon for diesel?
jgiblin wrote:As one who has worked in both the trucking and rail industries, I'm always amused when a group of rail folks start predicting the demise of the trucking industry. To paraphrase Mark Twain, reports of the trucking industry's demise are greatly exaggerated. Several commenters have correctly surmised that railroads really are "doomed by complexity", to quote from my March 2007 TRAINS feature. We will be exploring the train vs. truck phenomenon, specifically as it relates to perishables, in another feature in the September 2008 issue. Truckers simply have too many inherent advantages over railroads. Railroads will be important niche players but the mass market remains with the truckers.
Well, Jim, I don't think anyone predicted the demise of the trucking industry.
And I disagree that railroads are "doomed" by complexity. They're hampered and disadvantaged by complexity - but not "doomed".
There are advantaqes and disadvantages when shipping by rail. One advantage is the lower rail linehaul cost once you get past all the collecting, aggregating, sorting, and distributing you have to do to use rail. It's the relationship of that line haul rail cost. to the other steps and to trucking costs that determines when and where rail transport is viable vis a vis trucking.
Over time the cost relationships change. That means the niches change. A market niche that was closed to rail when diesel truck fuel was $1.25/gallon can become very open to rail when truck fuel is $4.70/gallon. It's important for the railroads to understand such changes and exploit the new niches when they open up.
It will be interesting to see what you have to say regarding perishables. It's important to remember that there are niches within the niche when it comes to perishables. Commodities such as potatoes, apples, onions, carrots, etc. are "Less Perishable" and can easily take a somewhat longer, somewhat less reliable rail vs truck transit to save money. Commodities such as strawberries are "More Perishable" and are going to stay on the Interstate System (or in a plane's cargo hold) because they require very rapid transit.
I'm certain that there has been a "Niche Shift" with regards to many perishable products caused by the rapid run up (which appears permanent) of fuel cost. A BNSF premium intermodal train making 750 miles/day is service competitive for much of the perishable market and the cost shift has given it an advantage for certain perishable products.
That railroad is also sitting on a "Beef Mine" out in SW Kansas and the Texas panhandle. That area produces 42% of the "fed beef" (not old dairy cows) in the US. That beef can move by rail - if the savings by rail are good enough to offset the slighly lower quality of rail transport. Those savings just got a lot bigger. The "Beef Niche" just opened up. Hopefully, the railroad will take advantage of that.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
JB Hunt has rail access.
He puts a bunch of trailers on a train for a single charge.
Saves having to herd 400 drivers, tractors, paperwork, logs, comchecks etc etc etc.
What's not to like?
Oh yes, 30 regionals assigned to this spot to gather up the loads when the choo choo arrived.
As diesel fuel continues to climb the opportunity for rail to take over a lot of the California Produce Market to the midwest and east exists.
Salinas being captive to the UP should seriously consider trucks hauling the produce to a terminal such as Stockton where it can be placed on a BNSF train for Chicago or Kansas City or even points in Texas. If it is continuing east than the cars receive priority at whatever point they interchange with an eastern road. If trucker's haul it within a certain radius to destinations such as the way JB Hunt handles there trucks than much of the fuel crisis can be resolved for the truckers and bring down prices in the grocery store.
narig02 wrote: My apoligies for my rambling. On shipping produce. I'm one of those truck drivers(OTR gang) who pulls a refridgerated(temperature controlled) trailer. 1. A lot of produce these days gets moved in Truck Load quantities(ie 40,000lb lots/ 20 pallet) The patterns I see is that it moves very quickly & is absolutely not subject to delay unless someone really wants a lot of trouble. Cargo has to be temperature checked continously & must keep moving. A lot of this can move 500 miles a day but there is a lot that has to move faster(ie team freight) . There is a huge variety of not only refridgerated freight but also stuff that is temperature sensitive. (protect from freezing, protect from excessive heat, keep 0 deg f or below. maintain a temperture of xx to xx Deg F). Railroads are getting a little better at this. Most railroads when they rebuld or but a new refridgerated railcar they will put a Thermo King SB III unit or a Carrier Ultra. Both of these units were developed primarily for truck trailer use. (If you look inside older railcars you will see the units mounted in the area for mech. equipment with the roof section over this are cut away. the new railcars simply have the units mounted on the end of the car.s If the railroads were smart, they would get into this business. I would not accept traditional rail rates, but would insist on getting the rates that they would get if they were a trucking company(this also means providing trucking company service). The other comment I would make is that railroads would have to have multiple departures daily to get the best chance at this business. One of the comments I heard inside my company when I asked about why the co. did not use rail any more, was that they had real problems getting R/R to hold a train when the grower was running late. This was in spite of the fact that they were sending 20 containers or more a day. When they saw that they would not make the daily dept, well on the road it went. On those days when they did not have enought trucks to cover the loads & R/R was unavailable someone ended up paying for the missed loads.(and it was not the railroad).Not sure what else I can say.Rgds IGN
My apoligies for my rambling.
On shipping produce. I'm one of those truck drivers(OTR gang) who pulls a refridgerated(temperature controlled) trailer.
1. A lot of produce these days gets moved in Truck Load quantities(ie 40,000lb lots/ 20 pallet) The patterns I see is that it moves very quickly & is absolutely not subject to delay unless someone really wants a lot of trouble. Cargo has to be temperature checked continously & must keep moving.
A lot of this can move 500 miles a day but there is a lot that has to move faster(ie team freight) .
There is a huge variety of not only refridgerated freight but also stuff that is temperature sensitive. (protect from freezing, protect from excessive heat, keep 0 deg f or below. maintain a temperture of xx to xx Deg F).
Railroads are getting a little better at this. Most railroads when they rebuld or but a new refridgerated railcar they will put a Thermo King SB III unit or a Carrier Ultra. Both of these units were developed primarily for truck trailer use. (If you look inside older railcars you will see the units mounted in the area for mech. equipment with the roof section over this are cut away. the new railcars simply have the units mounted on the end of the car.s
If the railroads were smart, they would get into this business. I would not accept traditional rail rates, but would insist on getting the rates that they would get if they were a trucking company(this also means providing trucking company service).
The other comment I would make is that railroads would have to have multiple departures daily to get the best chance at this business. One of the comments I heard inside my company when I asked about why the co. did not use rail any more, was that they had real problems getting R/R to hold a train when the grower was running late. This was in spite of the fact that they were sending 20 containers or more a day.
When they saw that they would not make the daily dept, well on the road it went. On those days when they did not have enought trucks to cover the loads & R/R was unavailable someone ended up paying for the missed loads.(and it was not the railroad).
Not sure what else I can say.
Rgds IGN
Thanks IGN. And you certainly didn't ramble.
The current BNSF standard for premium intermodal is 750 miles per day so I'd say they were currently competitive for "a lot" of produce. The railroads are never going to win a race with team drivers, so if the freight is that hot, it's going to stay on the Interstate System. But, as you say, there is "a lot" available for 750 miles/day service.
Monitoring the temperatures is no longer a problem on the rail, satelites fixed that. Multiple departures shouldn't be a problem out of a place like California, but out of Dodge City (lots of beef) it could be.
Are you an o/o? If so, how would a railroad get you to use rail intermodal. It's getting to the point with fuel where the railroad could haul your tractor and your trailer on a flatcar, and you in a passenger rail car for less than it cost you to drive. (They'd charge you for the meals.)
Did not know Americold had a facility in Salinas, Ca.
Last time I checked most of the shippers in Salinas were growers & coolers.
rgds ign
Expresslane wrote: JOdom wrote:Can I ask what may be a dumb question or two? The Railex operation from Washington state to Albany (area) NY seems like a great idea - let the truck do the consolidation and distribution and let the train do the long haul. Couldn't some enterprising company set up a network of warehouses like those in Albany in major metropolitan areas (Dallas-Ft. Worth, Atlanta, Orlando, Memphis, etc) distributed around the country and do the same thing? Meat trains could run from the production points (slaughterhouses) to the same warehouses (or adjacent warehouses set up for meat) to maximize use of the assets. I could be wrong but I think there is a market like this in NYC. Its called Hunts Point Market. It has or had rails and handled meat and produce.
JOdom wrote:Can I ask what may be a dumb question or two? The Railex operation from Washington state to Albany (area) NY seems like a great idea - let the truck do the consolidation and distribution and let the train do the long haul. Couldn't some enterprising company set up a network of warehouses like those in Albany in major metropolitan areas (Dallas-Ft. Worth, Atlanta, Orlando, Memphis, etc) distributed around the country and do the same thing? Meat trains could run from the production points (slaughterhouses) to the same warehouses (or adjacent warehouses set up for meat) to maximize use of the assets.
I could be wrong but I think there is a market like this in NYC. Its called Hunts Point Market. It has or had rails and handled meat and produce.
Hunts Point recieves truck loads every night of Meats, Seafood, Grocery, Fruits, Vegs etc.. basically everything consumed the next day in NYC's Butchers, Restraunts etc. While I dont claim Hunts supplies ALL of NYC's food, I will say from experience that there is a great deal of inbound deliveries to Hunts from all around the USA and in some cases overseas as well.
Butter in from Baltimore, Seafood from Boston, Meats from the West and Produce from all kinds of places. I think Lemons out of Yuma, Cabbage and other Produce from Nogales, California and elsewhere.
To GET to Hunts Point requires stopping at one of the truckstops an hour or so away.. Conneticut, New Jersey etc. And running in with hundreds of other trucks late in the afternoon and evening. By morning the outbounds empties start getting out of the city. The lucky ones get into Jersey or New England to reload before the rush hour.
Usually the GW (George Washington Bridge) recieves hundreds of trucks an hour on the upper deck plus more on the lower deck trying to get into Hunts from Jersey and I THINK it was the Throgs or White's that took traffic in from New England. Time has erased some details of my remembering.
Sometimes you take food products close to NYC and trans docked it to straight trucks that would go down into the city from Jersey or whatever to deliver the goods.
I have spent some years of my life working Hunts and feel fortunate that there has not been any real trouble there. This is just one Market (NOT your local family friendly produce or farmers market... dont mis understand me.) out of dozens around the USA all doing the work to feed the cities every night.
Let's not forget the Tropicana Train that comes up from Florida often to NJ. Nothing stops that train except for maybe Potus or other moves.
Railway Man wrote: Bob, I haven't been in the business quite as long as you (but I might have as many grey hairs). I like very much the way you capture the service and financial results comparisons so succinctly and graphically.I think what few people realize (or would like to cope with) is that the technology of trucking and railroads is fundamentally different and how that difference plays out in service. For a trucker not providing good service requires almost complete dereliction of duty. For a railroad, providing the same level of service takes scrupulous discipline and teamwork of hundreds of people and no small amount of luck. I think we obsess far too much on our wish that railroads were just like trucks, which they cannot be due to their aggregation-and-batch method of obtaining the value out of the technology of the railroad. And we spend not nearly enough candor on realizing why the railroad is not like a truck and thus fail to do what we can do well. The new emphasis on multi-service logistics parks with point-to-point non-yarded trains between them is I think perhaps the most clear-eyed and smart thinking in the business in years.RWM
Bob, I haven't been in the business quite as long as you (but I might have as many grey hairs). I like very much the way you capture the service and financial results comparisons so succinctly and graphically.
I think what few people realize (or would like to cope with) is that the technology of trucking and railroads is fundamentally different and how that difference plays out in service. For a trucker not providing good service requires almost complete dereliction of duty. For a railroad, providing the same level of service takes scrupulous discipline and teamwork of hundreds of people and no small amount of luck. I think we obsess far too much on our wish that railroads were just like trucks, which they cannot be due to their aggregation-and-batch method of obtaining the value out of the technology of the railroad. And we spend not nearly enough candor on realizing why the railroad is not like a truck and thus fail to do what we can do well. The new emphasis on multi-service logistics parks with point-to-point non-yarded trains between them is I think perhaps the most clear-eyed and smart thinking in the business in years.
You've got a good point. The "aggregation-and-batch method" used in railroading adds many "events" to a rail move. Each of these events has a possibilty for failure which will degrade service quality. They also add expense. These "events" are not present in a truckload move where the unit of sale is the same as the unit of production and a driver personally oversees each move and ensures its quality. As you say, it is hard for a railroad to match the service quality offered by a trucker.
However, if service qaulity was all that counted everything would move by truck. Service qaulity certainly has to be present, but it is part of a service mix offered to the customer. It is not the ultimate goal in logistics.
There is a cost element in the mix that increasingly favors rail.
The railroads can either cede vast amounts of traffic to the truckers or they can develop markets such as fresh fruits and vegetables/meat. It's long haul, high volume traffic and it pays well by rail standards. It will take some work, but it's possible. The rail share of fresh meat shouldn't be 0.00%.
The cost part of the service mix has moved to favor rail. The USDA is reporting that the truck charge on lettuce from Salinas to Chicago is averaging $5,900. That's around $2.45/mile. That's a lot of money to just cede to the truckers.
No, the railroad is not going to win a race with a trucker from Salinas to Chicago for the reasons you cite. The railroad will not deliver with the same consistancy as the trucker. But a railroad can offer enough service quality to deliver that lettuce in good condition for sale - and the cost savings possible by rail can offset the service advantage of the trucker. Somebody just has to put this thing together.
bobwilcox wrote: beaulieu wrote: bobwilcox wrote: JOdom wrote:Can I ask what may be a dumb question or two? The Railex operation from Washington state to Albany (area) NY seems like a great idea - let the truck do the consolidation and distribution and let the train do the long haul. Couldn't some enterprising company set up a network of warehouses like those in Albany in major metropolitan areas (Dallas-Ft. Worth, Atlanta, Orlando, Memphis, etc) distributed around the country and do the same thing? Meat trains could run from the production points (slaughterhouses) to the same warehouses (or adjacent warehouses set up for meat) to maximize use of the assets.The answer is yes. Who will it be? Probably a 3PL. I think you are correct. It will be someone who flourished flipping homes in Vegas. I was shocked to learn about five years ago that one of the Big 3 auto manufactures had contracted out their set-up auto physical distribution to UPS! I always was happy I never had to find out what the world would be like if one of my captive chemical producers had contracted his outbound shiping to UPS. As a capitive Texan once told me, "You've got me by the b**** but I'm in a perfect postition to p*** on you!" It was a sad day in railroading when the customers got bigger than us.
beaulieu wrote: bobwilcox wrote: JOdom wrote:Can I ask what may be a dumb question or two? The Railex operation from Washington state to Albany (area) NY seems like a great idea - let the truck do the consolidation and distribution and let the train do the long haul. Couldn't some enterprising company set up a network of warehouses like those in Albany in major metropolitan areas (Dallas-Ft. Worth, Atlanta, Orlando, Memphis, etc) distributed around the country and do the same thing? Meat trains could run from the production points (slaughterhouses) to the same warehouses (or adjacent warehouses set up for meat) to maximize use of the assets.The answer is yes. Who will it be? Probably a 3PL.
bobwilcox wrote: JOdom wrote:Can I ask what may be a dumb question or two? The Railex operation from Washington state to Albany (area) NY seems like a great idea - let the truck do the consolidation and distribution and let the train do the long haul. Couldn't some enterprising company set up a network of warehouses like those in Albany in major metropolitan areas (Dallas-Ft. Worth, Atlanta, Orlando, Memphis, etc) distributed around the country and do the same thing? Meat trains could run from the production points (slaughterhouses) to the same warehouses (or adjacent warehouses set up for meat) to maximize use of the assets.The answer is yes. Who will it be?
The answer is yes. Who will it be?
Probably a 3PL.
I think you are correct. It will be someone who flourished flipping homes in Vegas.
I was shocked to learn about five years ago that one of the Big 3 auto manufactures had contracted out their set-up auto physical distribution to UPS! I always was happy I never had to find out what the world would be like if one of my captive chemical producers had contracted his outbound shiping to UPS. As a capitive Texan once told me, "You've got me by the b**** but I'm in a perfect postition to p*** on you!" It was a sad day in railroading when the customers got bigger than us.
Its SOP in Europe, has been for a while. National borders and customs requirements caused it to happen, even though much of that has gone away with the formation of the EU and the EEC. Transfesa has the Ford contract (now they are part of DB Schenker), DB Schenker has Volkswagen, TX Logistics has Audi, There are also a few specialist Auto only Logistics companies. UPS and Fedex are trying to play catch up in the Logistics business to avoid being just a supplier.
bobwilcox wrote: jgiblin wrote: Well, it's doubtful that any significant change from truck back to rail will ever occur thanks to one very simple phenomenon. Every trucking company manager knows that if he does not find a way to continually meet or exceed his customer's expectations, there are at least 10 other trucking companies lined up just outside the customer's door waiting for the chance to handle that customer's business. Competition is a wonderful motivator and it has given us the highest standard of living in the world today.By contrast, railroads are not under this kind of pressure for continuous improvement. All of them either have an oligopoly or monopoly, depending on the commodity and market. They just don't have the same level of intense commitment to the customer and the marketplace that truckers have. An awful lot of them just don't seem to care very much anymore. Remember that the infamous phrase "demarketing" came out of the railroad industry not the trucking industry.Yes, it's true that rail service is the best it's ever been. And most shippers and receivers will tell you that rail service overall is about where the trucking industry was 10-12 years ago.I don't disagree with anything you say, espically if you compare an owner operator with a an employee of any company. If the owner operator does well his kids get to eat! If he doesn't do well it is a personal disaster. Maybee that is why their are very virtually no financially succesful truckers. They give great service but for what? On the other hand the railroad guy can go to his boss and get millions of dollars to run apples from the PNW to the Northeast. In addition a succesful trucker and railroad serve two distinct markets. People pay UPS pay very high rates per ton mile to move packages for service first and cost second. People pay the NS very low rates per ton mile to move coal from WV to Tidewater for cost first and service second. Things get very interesting when you move toward the middle and things are not quite so clear cut weighing service vs. cost.
jgiblin wrote: Well, it's doubtful that any significant change from truck back to rail will ever occur thanks to one very simple phenomenon. Every trucking company manager knows that if he does not find a way to continually meet or exceed his customer's expectations, there are at least 10 other trucking companies lined up just outside the customer's door waiting for the chance to handle that customer's business. Competition is a wonderful motivator and it has given us the highest standard of living in the world today.By contrast, railroads are not under this kind of pressure for continuous improvement. All of them either have an oligopoly or monopoly, depending on the commodity and market. They just don't have the same level of intense commitment to the customer and the marketplace that truckers have. An awful lot of them just don't seem to care very much anymore. Remember that the infamous phrase "demarketing" came out of the railroad industry not the trucking industry.Yes, it's true that rail service is the best it's ever been. And most shippers and receivers will tell you that rail service overall is about where the trucking industry was 10-12 years ago.
Well, it's doubtful that any significant change from truck back to rail will ever occur thanks to one very simple phenomenon. Every trucking company manager knows that if he does not find a way to continually meet or exceed his customer's expectations, there are at least 10 other trucking companies lined up just outside the customer's door waiting for the chance to handle that customer's business. Competition is a wonderful motivator and it has given us the highest standard of living in the world today.
By contrast, railroads are not under this kind of pressure for continuous improvement. All of them either have an oligopoly or monopoly, depending on the commodity and market. They just don't have the same level of intense commitment to the customer and the marketplace that truckers have. An awful lot of them just don't seem to care very much anymore. Remember that the infamous phrase "demarketing" came out of the railroad industry not the trucking industry.
Yes, it's true that rail service is the best it's ever been. And most shippers and receivers will tell you that rail service overall is about where the trucking industry was 10-12 years ago.
I don't disagree with anything you say, espically if you compare an owner operator with a an employee of any company. If the owner operator does well his kids get to eat! If he doesn't do well it is a personal disaster. Maybee that is why their are very virtually no financially succesful truckers. They give great service but for what? On the other hand the railroad guy can go to his boss and get millions of dollars to run apples from the PNW to the Northeast.
In addition a succesful trucker and railroad serve two distinct markets. People pay UPS pay very high rates per ton mile to move packages for service first and cost second. People pay the NS very low rates per ton mile to move coal from WV to Tidewater for cost first and service second. Things get very interesting when you move toward the middle and things are not quite so clear cut weighing service vs. cost.
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