I think the simplest thing to remember here is to respect the railroad, their property, and the employees that are doing their job. If you must fan near railway property, then stay off of it. But, by and large there are alot of us fans and photographers that understand that fact. It's the people that have no respect for the property that are the biggest problem.
Yesterday, a bicyclist in my neighborhood chose to shoulder his bike, and walk across the tracks, and not use the pedestrian tunnel. The ironic thing is, that he carried his bike up the embankment right next to the tunnel..... It's the people like that that are the bigger problem. I watched the guy and just could not figure out what possesses someone to do something like that......
I would suggest doing the train watching at the Homewood train park and then let us know how it is. Use it. That is why it is there. In my opinion, there seems to be folks out there who take train watching so seriously. That freaks me out. It should not be that way. This should be a stress free, enjoyable hobby to get away from the real stress of life. If a rr puts up a no tresspassing sign or builds a fence, its not the end of the world. Usually the best locations for watching trains is indeed on public property--not rr property. Railroad trks, yards & such are not rolling museums open for public access. Finally if someone wants to waste their film taking a pic of me at work, go for it. If you want my ugly face in your photo collection, I would feel honored.
CShaveRR wrote: Something to think about.I have a friend who's coming to visit us in a couple of weeks. He, like I, is into freight car research and history. For that, we often need to get information in the very tiny lettering stencilled on the cars. So you'd think we'd be putting ourselves into the danger zone, or risk running afoul of this when we visit the CN crossing of Broadway at Blue Island.But he wrote me recently to say that his best research is done when he's no closer than 100 feet to the cars, and all he needs is a 200-foot range of vision from that 100-foot distance. I think we can do that at Blue Island without running afoul of CN. Unless they detain us for the direction in which our cameras or binoculars are pointed, which is a whole other subject.Our intent is to upset nobody. As a railroader, I wish that were everyone's intent when watching us.
Something to think about.
I have a friend who's coming to visit us in a couple of weeks. He, like I, is into freight car research and history. For that, we often need to get information in the very tiny lettering stencilled on the cars. So you'd think we'd be putting ourselves into the danger zone, or risk running afoul of this when we visit the CN crossing of Broadway at Blue Island.
But he wrote me recently to say that his best research is done when he's no closer than 100 feet to the cars, and all he needs is a 200-foot range of vision from that 100-foot distance. I think we can do that at Blue Island without running afoul of CN. Unless they detain us for the direction in which our cameras or binoculars are pointed, which is a whole other subject.
Our intent is to upset nobody. As a railroader, I wish that were everyone's intent when watching us.
For years we would sit in the 'A' lot at Blue Island and watch the world go by. When CSX laid down the law that the 'A' lot was actually their property, (it was the first time anyone had enforced this in over 20 years) we moved into the 'B' lot across Broadway, only to discover it was also their property. Now we understand why.
Even when I hired out, I was not all that strict about it, nor was my employer. A series of events however changed that. First, my employer has suffered huge losses from trespassers.
Next, as I was hostling power in the yard one day, I proceeded to back up off a service track when out of nowhere, some person leaped out from behind me, with a camera around his neck. I had lights, bells, and whistle going at the time. Anyone with an ounce of common sense would have stayed clear until I had passed. Later, as the City was building an overpass at the south end of our yard, some nitwit started to use our yard as a short cut to work day after day. In order to do so, he would have to climb down a six foot tall mud embankment, over a drainage ditch, and cross the tracks. As we were getting ready to pull a drag out of the yard, I whistle off, and pulled ahead. Out of the corner of my eye, I see him just barely miss the plow of my leader.
That was the final straw.
We already had one death in our yard in recent years, we do not want another. Maybe folks don't care about the safety of my fellow employees, I do! And I will be darned (edited by selector) if any one from the public will comprimise safety again as long as I am around.
WIAR wrote: Clear To Nowhere wrote: EJE818 wrote:CN must be serious about this, because I went by Homewood Yard today and they have built a huge 7 foot high chain-link fence around almost the entire yard.You all have it totally wrong. CN management is using the trespassing issue as a smokescreen. The 7-foot chain link fence at Homewood is just the start. Soon, CN will have a chain link fence around their entire North American property. Once that is done, the employees will no longer be able to go home. They will effectively be "in jail" at CN Rail and with no way to get out, will work longer hours. Efficiencies at CN will then return to the levels preferred by managmentment. The libertarians on the forum should have fun chewin' on that...
Clear To Nowhere wrote: EJE818 wrote:CN must be serious about this, because I went by Homewood Yard today and they have built a huge 7 foot high chain-link fence around almost the entire yard.You all have it totally wrong. CN management is using the trespassing issue as a smokescreen. The 7-foot chain link fence at Homewood is just the start. Soon, CN will have a chain link fence around their entire North American property. Once that is done, the employees will no longer be able to go home. They will effectively be "in jail" at CN Rail and with no way to get out, will work longer hours. Efficiencies at CN will then return to the levels preferred by managmentment.
EJE818 wrote:CN must be serious about this, because I went by Homewood Yard today and they have built a huge 7 foot high chain-link fence around almost the entire yard.
You all have it totally wrong. CN management is using the trespassing issue as a smokescreen. The 7-foot chain link fence at Homewood is just the start. Soon, CN will have a chain link fence around their entire North American property. Once that is done, the employees will no longer be able to go home. They will effectively be "in jail" at CN Rail and with no way to get out, will work longer hours. Efficiencies at CN will then return to the levels preferred by managmentment.
The libertarians on the forum should have fun chewin' on that...
CNW 6000 wrote: RRKen wrote:CN is free to protects it's private property. So go away if you don't like it. Maybe a hobby like collecting toenail clippings would be less stressful for you?People are free to take pictures of publicly visible things like trains from a public place. I will continue to do this as long as I'm interested and able. Quit your job if you don't like your picture being taken. Maybe a job like clipping toenails would be less stressful for you.
RRKen wrote:CN is free to protects it's private property. So go away if you don't like it. Maybe a hobby like collecting toenail clippings would be less stressful for you?
People are free to take pictures of publicly visible things like trains from a public place. I will continue to do this as long as I'm interested and able. Quit your job if you don't like your picture being taken. Maybe a job like clipping toenails would be less stressful for you.
No one implied that folks should stop taking photos altogether, just that they do it from public property. CN, like every other private property owner has a right to protect their property. Besides, in order to take a photo of me, you would need a 600mm lens and permission to be on some one elses private property.
Harry_Runyon wrote: zardoz wrote:I'm sorry if I made anyone's brain hurt.Zardoz...you have every right to say what you do. Its just the way that you say it.All of us (myself included) are guilty of that.
zardoz wrote:I'm sorry if I made anyone's brain hurt.
Zardoz...you have every right to say what you do. Its just the way that you say it.
All of us (myself included) are guilty of that.
I'm cool with that. I know I do get rather emotional at times. Especially if it's been one of "those" kind of days.
My apologies to the forum.
eolafan wrote:in the future, you don't start something unless you are prepared to finish it on this (or any other) forum.
Whatever floats yer boat Dude.
BTW...and for the record...you started it.
Have a nice day...and happy sales managing!
selector wrote:Could we wrestle this bear back into its cage?
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
I stand-by what I said: It was an outrageous and insulting comparison, and you should be ashamed to make such an assertion against your own country. Sure, the Gestapo never handed anybody over to the SS for transfer to the camps. Sure.
Nobody in the government has granted any such secret police any special immunity to persecute anyone beyond the limits of the law. I hardly think anyone is in danger of goose-stepping brown-shirts putting cameras in your sock drawer. The argument of being "doomed to repeat" history can be used to justify about any kind of anti-government hot air.
WIAR:
It is you who doesn't truely understand the comparison.
The Gestapo was not the group murdering millions of people. That was the SS and the military. The Gestapo was Hitler's version of our Department of Homeland Security, except he called it Fatherland Security.
"An evil exists that threatens every man, woman and child of this great nation, we must take steps to ensure our domestic security and protect our homeland."
Sound familiar? That is from the speech he made in 1933 announcing the formation of the Gestapo. He exempted them from the normal constraints put on law enforcement. He gave them the authority to spy on German citizens, keep secret files, and arrest people who they deemed to be a threat to the Fatherland without the normal checks and balances.
And the German people celebrated their new found "security".
People who do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat it.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
zardoz wrote: CopCarSS wrote: At any rate, Willy, once again you've proved that despite your youth, you are in fact more mature than many participants in this forum. The reason I made my first post in this thread is that some people seem to accept without question whatever the media and the government choose to tell them. Hence we have "Homeland Security", meaningless hassles at airports, cameras on every street corner, REAL ID cards (coming soon to a DMV near you), and most of all (relating to this forum) wannabe Barney Fife's detaining and questioning people who are doing nothing more sinister than taking photos of trains, buildings, etc.Perhaps I should have not involved myself with this subject. I feel too strongly about the freedoms we are losing, including those we have already lost. And I now realize that any posting regarding anything other than watching choo-choo's go by is asking to be accused of a variety of politcal beliefs and/or agendas. I will in the future try to Keep It Simple. I'm sorry if I made anyone's brain hurt.
CopCarSS wrote: At any rate, Willy, once again you've proved that despite your youth, you are in fact more mature than many participants in this forum.
The reason I made my first post in this thread is that some people seem to accept without question whatever the media and the government choose to tell them. Hence we have "Homeland Security", meaningless hassles at airports, cameras on every street corner, REAL ID cards (coming soon to a DMV near you), and most of all (relating to this forum) wannabe Barney Fife's detaining and questioning people who are doing nothing more sinister than taking photos of trains, buildings, etc.
Perhaps I should have not involved myself with this subject. I feel too strongly about the freedoms we are losing, including those we have already lost. And I now realize that any posting regarding anything other than watching choo-choo's go by is asking to be accused of a variety of politcal beliefs and/or agendas. I will in the future try to Keep It Simple.
I'm sorry if I made anyone's brain hurt.
Jost for the record, Z, my comment wasn't directed at you.
-ChrisWest Chicago, ILChristopher May Fine Art Photography"In wisdom gathered over time I have found that every experience is a form of exploration." ~Ansel Adams
Phoebe Vet wrote: Zardoz:Me too.
Zardoz:
Me too.
Your "Gestapo" comment is what set me off. Do you truly understand what is implied by that comparison? Even if you don't like the new restrictions, that's no reason to compare US law enforcement, homeland security, or railroad police to Hitler's genocidal henchmen. That was a totally outrageous statement.
Selector, et al - the irony of this whole thing is that our fair city is wanting to build an arena and a hotel - and they want to do it right where the main line of the BNSF runs right now. The railroad would have to move several tracks to accomodate this.
I can't begin to tell you the nightmare I foresee if this happens. They are wringing their hands over an old couple watching them now, they will really be upset when masses of people are milling around the area of this project - fences notwithstanding.....
Mook
She who has no signature! cinscocom-tmw
CopCarSS wrote: Willy2 wrote: I highly doubt that CopCar intended for this to happen with this thread. Indeed not. I merely wanted to bring the crack-down to light because I know that . I've inadvertantly wandered onto RR property before while composing shots. I just wanted everyone to realize that CN had instituted a zero tolerance policy and that they should fully be aware of where they are railfanning as there appears that there will be no exceptions in the future on the CN. My post was in no way meant to convey a feeling of "right to be on the property," but rather serve as a warning to all railfans.At any rate, Willy, once again you've proved that despite your youth, you are in fact more mature than many participants in this forum.
Willy2 wrote: I highly doubt that CopCar intended for this to happen with this thread.
Indeed not. I merely wanted to bring the crack-down to light because I know that . I've inadvertantly wandered onto RR property before while composing shots. I just wanted everyone to realize that CN had instituted a zero tolerance policy and that they should fully be aware of where they are railfanning as there appears that there will be no exceptions in the future on the CN. My post was in no way meant to convey a feeling of "right to be on the property," but rather serve as a warning to all railfans.
At any rate, Willy, once again you've proved that despite your youth, you are in fact more mature than many participants in this forum.
Mookie wrote:Since BNSF runs right through our fair city, the only possible way to get to see trains is to sit at a crossing and wait. Every available avenue has private property next to the rails. So now I need to get very creative and find a way to be able to watch any trains. ... Makes me wonder if I shouldn't head to a small town and watch the UP from a county road. They don't seem to mind so far.
Since BNSF runs right through our fair city, the only possible way to get to see trains is to sit at a crossing and wait. Every available avenue has private property next to the rails. So now I need to get very creative and find a way to be able to watch any trains.
...
Makes me wonder if I shouldn't head to a small town and watch the UP from a county road. They don't seem to mind so far.
Well, if it can be the slightest consolation to you Mookie, my other hobby (used to be) Astronomy. At one time I was very active and would put the kids in bed, lug out my rather large and heavy light bucket to the car, horse it into the back, and then commence a 40 minute drive out to the south or east of Winnipeg so that I could see what interested me at the time....a non-light-polluted sky. It was a de facto requirement, and is that much more so for star-gazers who have to "put up with" the effects of social encroachment on the sky because of what happens on the ground. It is no different here in this discussion; society is mutable, and as it changes around more rigid artefacts (like 150 year-old corporations), we should expect the corporations to adapt in ways they think best.
I agree that the changes are apparently lamentable. Our night sky presents the same stars, but we can't see them unless we adapt in some way. It works the same out there near the right of way because of "human activity".
-Crandell
Mookie wrote: Said I was done, but time for another quick question? In cities where railroads go through part of the town, do the railroads ever own the property that a business sits on? ie - the business owns the building, but the railroad owns the property? (especially ones that sit very close to the tracks?)
Said I was done, but time for another quick question?
In cities where railroads go through part of the town, do the railroads ever own the property that a business sits on? ie - the business owns the building, but the railroad owns the property?
(especially ones that sit very close to the tracks?)
Yes, it can happen. Especially around yards that may have "downsized" in years past, or tracks have been re-aligned. The railroad wants to cover some of the property tax they have to pay and lease a parcel to another business.
As an example, the favorite train watching location in Fort Wayne (the perch) is located at the east end of the yard where two mainlines cross. The perch is the parking lot of a concrete plant that abuts the busier mainline. The whole property is owned by Norfolk Southern. I know this because a few years ago when NS re-aligned the interlocking to make a gentler curve, I walked into the office of the concrete plant and watched as the manager was handed a notice that the railroad was revising the lease and taking a part of that parking lot without compensation. (As part of the restoration, I supervised the repair of said lot to a usable condition). This property was fenced and for all the world looks like a separate (private) property when it is not.
Bottom line, unless you've spent hours in the county courthouse researching property records (like I have), you can't be sure. Just tell the officer doing his job you meant no harm and move to a different (hopefully safer, public) spot. (unless he confiscates my camera, but that is another subject.)
selector wrote: Hi, everone. I thought I'd stick my head in here and offer this (not a comment on the vituperation earlier): Consider that adversity makes us respond in ways that take us in new directions. We have changed as a society since folks realized they could dig their own "springs" to get reliable sources of water. This fencing is pretty small stuff in the greater picture.........don't y'all think? I live just across the road from Canadian Forces Base Comox, with its 10,000' runway. The Base just finished replacing a 30+ year old 7' fence with a new 8' one, and they erected the latter nearly a full meter back away from their 'frontage'...they seem to have ceded some turf for the public's benefit. My dog's at least.About the only thing that would change the topic substantially is that the notion of "property" and "property rights" would have to be altered considerably from what we make of it these days. That means our current laws would have to change. As things stand, CN, and any other property owner, can do what they want with their property that is not expressly proscribed under the Law or local authority that pertains. So, in adversity, railfans will find other ways to take their advantage. They may even have less trouble with interference and will find fewer interactions and hassles, including unwelcome challenges by police. Maybe.
Hi, everone. I thought I'd stick my head in here and offer this (not a comment on the vituperation earlier):
Consider that adversity makes us respond in ways that take us in new directions. We have changed as a society since folks realized they could dig their own "springs" to get reliable sources of water.
This fencing is pretty small stuff in the greater picture.........don't y'all think? I live just across the road from Canadian Forces Base Comox, with its 10,000' runway. The Base just finished replacing a 30+ year old 7' fence with a new 8' one, and they erected the latter nearly a full meter back away from their 'frontage'...they seem to have ceded some turf for the public's benefit. My dog's at least.
About the only thing that would change the topic substantially is that the notion of "property" and "property rights" would have to be altered considerably from what we make of it these days. That means our current laws would have to change. As things stand, CN, and any other property owner, can do what they want with their property that is not expressly proscribed under the Law or local authority that pertains. So, in adversity, railfans will find other ways to take their advantage. They may even have less trouble with interference and will find fewer interactions and hassles, including unwelcome challenges by police. Maybe.
And I don't even take pictures, nor do I get out of the car, except to put some feeling back in my backside.
It is a good thing there were no trespassing railfans at the Tama Iowa tower on February 2 1978.
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=407233
I did a count...
Of 120 of my photos on railpics.net, about half of them were taken while on railroad property (although not neccesarily trespassing)
If I could never trespass, I could sill get some great shots - Just not as many, and I'd get even more bored of the same power in the same places.
Oh, and did I mention that I usually jaywalk when crossing roads?
Go here for my rail shots! http://www.railpictures.net/showphotos.php?userid=9296
Building the CPR Kootenay division in N scale, blog here: http://kootenaymodelrailway.wordpress.com/
Dan
Guys:
Since it was apparently my first post that spun us off topic into this argument, please let me clarify my position.
I absolutely respect the railroad's, any railroad, property rights, and their right to control who enters their property. I do not believe that you need to be on their property to get professional quality photos of their equipment.
My complaint was that increasingly in our paranoid society the act of taking photos or video by an individual is considered suspicious activity even as the same conduct by government and security agencies is increasing. It was not intended to be a complaint about the railroad's policy.
eolafan wrote: Harry_Runyon wrote: zardoz wrote: Harry_Runyon wrote: Does anyone else get tired when these so-called libertarians throw these mind-numbing quotes around?Enough already! I am not surprised that those simple quotes numbed your mind...I would imagine that happens quite often to you.My what a witty retort! I bet you stayed up all night thinking up this didn't you? At least this "super genius" payed attention in English Composition 101, so much so that I know that the correct sentence structure would be "I'll bet you stayed up all night thinking this up, didn't you?". Let's agree right now to a cessation of hostilities before this thread gets really nasty, and believe me when I say it truly can degrade very quickly and none of us want that. Remember the old saying that reads something like "People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones"...well Harry I suggest you stop throwing "stones" so none come back over the fence at you in the future.
Harry_Runyon wrote: zardoz wrote: Harry_Runyon wrote: Does anyone else get tired when these so-called libertarians throw these mind-numbing quotes around?Enough already! I am not surprised that those simple quotes numbed your mind...I would imagine that happens quite often to you.My what a witty retort! I bet you stayed up all night thinking up this didn't you?
zardoz wrote: Harry_Runyon wrote: Does anyone else get tired when these so-called libertarians throw these mind-numbing quotes around?Enough already! I am not surprised that those simple quotes numbed your mind...I would imagine that happens quite often to you.
Harry_Runyon wrote: Does anyone else get tired when these so-called libertarians throw these mind-numbing quotes around?Enough already!
Does anyone else get tired when these so-called libertarians throw these mind-numbing quotes around?
Enough already!
I am not surprised that those simple quotes numbed your mind...I would imagine that happens quite often to you.
My what a witty retort!
I bet you stayed up all night thinking up this didn't you?
At least this "super genius" payed attention in English Composition 101, so much so that I know that the correct sentence structure would be "I'll bet you stayed up all night thinking this up, didn't you?".
Let's agree right now to a cessation of hostilities before this thread gets really nasty, and believe me when I say it truly can degrade very quickly and none of us want that. Remember the old saying that reads something like "People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones"...well Harry I suggest you stop throwing "stones" so none come back over the fence at you in the future.
Harry, it became my business when you went directly after me above after I expressed my support of Zardoz. I will now leave this thread entirely, but before I do may I suggest that, in the future, you don't start something unless you are prepared to finish it on this (or any other) forum.
CShaveRR wrote: Mookie wrote: Going back to the original topic - I have a question from The Driver: You can go to Rochelle, cross the tracks at will, stand right next to the tracks, and, having been there, watch the BNSF go through there at a fairly high rate of speed. No one patrols there. No one makes you get back 100 feet. No one even seems to be all that interested in what is going on except the devoted rail fans. So this is different from our watching on private property within the 100 foot requirement, how?Don't need an argument, just a polite explanation. Mook Jen, there may not be a legitimate answer to your question, except that some employees in the other places are being "pro-active" (don't particularly like the term, but can't think of a better one).There have been many times when I've been to Rochelle and have seen action that makes me cringe. If it doesn't make other railroaders (i.e., the ones who are on duty and passing through there) cringe as well, I'd be surprised.Since you and Ed last visited Rochelle, some rules and appropriate signage have been prominently posted, prohibiting children from going too close to the tracks. I've not seen anything enforced by anyone except parents so far, but one of these times a child in an adult body is going to either come to grief himself or will cause somebody else a bit of grief (or maybe just an upsetting, scary moment). If that happens, you may see the railroad's police descend upon the place from time to time, protecting the interests of their respective companies.
Mookie wrote: Going back to the original topic - I have a question from The Driver: You can go to Rochelle, cross the tracks at will, stand right next to the tracks, and, having been there, watch the BNSF go through there at a fairly high rate of speed. No one patrols there. No one makes you get back 100 feet. No one even seems to be all that interested in what is going on except the devoted rail fans. So this is different from our watching on private property within the 100 foot requirement, how?Don't need an argument, just a polite explanation. Mook
No one patrols there. No one makes you get back 100 feet. No one even seems to be all that interested in what is going on except the devoted rail fans.
So this is different from our watching on private property within the 100 foot requirement, how?
Don't need an argument, just a polite explanation.
Jen, there may not be a legitimate answer to your question, except that some employees in the other places are being "pro-active" (don't particularly like the term, but can't think of a better one).
There have been many times when I've been to Rochelle and have seen action that makes me cringe. If it doesn't make other railroaders (i.e., the ones who are on duty and passing through there) cringe as well, I'd be surprised.
Since you and Ed last visited Rochelle, some rules and appropriate signage have been prominently posted, prohibiting children from going too close to the tracks. I've not seen anything enforced by anyone except parents so far, but one of these times a child in an adult body is going to either come to grief himself or will cause somebody else a bit of grief (or maybe just an upsetting, scary moment). If that happens, you may see the railroad's police descend upon the place from time to time, protecting the interests of their respective companies.
Carl, that would only make sense. All it takes is one idiot to spoil it for everyone. I don't get why threads related to this subject get so out of hand. I understand their right to protect their property, and maybe it's aggravating from time to time if as a photographer, I can't have access anymore to a favorite photo spot because the railroad fenced it off. It's their perogative though. There is even some talk around here of a ticket and a hefty fine if you are caught merely crossing the tracks anywhere other than the pedestrian tunnel, or the two railroad crossings. Right now it's 500 bucks if you play "beat the train" and get caught, I heard rumor they are considering that fine for just crossing the tracks where you aren't supposed to. Even though there is the tunnel, people still walk across the tracks, as opposed to walking a block or so, and utilizing the pedestrian underpass.
Phoebe Vet wrote: "At least with FOX News, you would get a balanced view of the situation"?Now THAT is humor......
"At least with FOX News, you would get a balanced view of the situation"?
Now THAT is humor......
Could you imagine the condition of the track if FOX News(?) was responsible for balancing a steam locomotive?
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