Near Collision Amtrak/CSX Syracuse, NY

[Anonymous]

Local News (TV and Post Standard) is reporting a near collision between a CSX train and an Amtrak passenger train in Kirkville, NY at approximately 5:00p.m. EST yesterday. The two trains were on the same track moving in opposite directions when the CSX crew placed their train in emergency and jumped to avoid the collision. The two trains locomotives stopped in approximately 400 feet of one another. The Amtrak train was carrying 130 passengers. The Amtrak train was number 281 "The Maple Leaf". The CSX train was Buffalo to Selkirk general freight train with 105 cars. According to CSX sources all signals were functioning properly and the CSX crew was in compliance with the operating rules. Both companies are investigating the incident.

LC

[JoeKoh]

Did someone miss a crossover somewhere???
stay safe
Joe

[csxns]

Dam i thought Trucking and Flying was dangerous.

[jeaton]

Does anyone know if that is double track, signaled both ways? At least the train crews must have observed the signals.

Anyway, somebody is thinking about their new career as a Wal-Mart Greeter!!

[Anonymous]

I guess if the CSX crew was in compliance with the operating rules, then that must put the burden on the Amtrak or a Rail Traffic Controller...

Scary to think that the crew on the freight were able to bail and yet all those passengers on the Amtrak never would have known what hit them.

[Anonymous]

CSX IS TERRIBLE WITH SAFTEY

[tree68]

Again? Amtrak ran into the back of a CSX freight in Syracuse a couple of years ago.

The track is double, and is signaled both ways. Amtrak has to cross over to the eastbound (#2) track (and then to another track) to reach the platform at Syracuse. I'm not familiar with how they normally pull that off, but the Amtrak train would have had to have been on the westbound track at some point. Since I believe a dispatcher controls all of the switches, as opposed to the crews, that may be where the finger will point.

Maps are at http://24.169.115.143/rochesterrailf/maps.htm#csx. The location of the Amtrak station on the map for MP308 to 278 on the Chicago line is out-of-date, though. The station is now just east of the "Route 81 OH" between MP 291 and 290, a few miles west of the location of the station on the map.

The incident occured just east of the Dewitt Yard. CSX normally runs right handed through Syracuse.

[BNSFNUT]

The CSX is has 3 tracks in that general area switching to 2 track. The railroad is signaled both directions. I have railfaned at the grade crossing at Kirkville many times.
If I had seen these trains headed at each other I would be still running if the heart just did not stop all together. I wonder how close this was to the Kirkville road crossing?

[jeaton]

Larry, Thanks! Great Link.

Obviously, we speculate, but I would guess that the train crews at least responded properly to the signals. Figure the stopping distance of the trains any where near top track speed and one would have to decide that the on coming is not the "light at the end of the tunnel" two miles or more away. "Conductor! Hand me your binoculars!!

Jay

[tree68]

Speaking of the conductor, if one takes the P-S story at face value, CSX has replaced the engineer with a second conductor (Yep, the refer to the two conductors on the freight engine. Several times.)

[Anonymous]

Channel 3 in Syracuse will air a special report on the "Safety of Central New York Rails" tonight at six following friday's near miss. We'll see how badly everybody gets bashed.

LC

[BaltACD]

The one thing highlighted by the indcident is that BOTH crews did comply with CSX Rules to the extent that the called their signals and track on the Road Radio Channel and each heard the other call and took appropriate actions to stop their trains.

Lord only knows what the full investigation of the incident will reveal,

[Modelcar]

...Just within the last hour saw on the "crawler" across the bottom of the TV screen a reference of the Syracuse ordeal....Indicated "the enginemen jumped after putting the brakes on"....etc...

[tree68]

The channel 3 report I saw at six (and taped) wasn't really a report. The centerpiece of the whole thing was a gentleman who was aboard the Amtrak train that rear-ended the CSX freight a couple of years ago. Of course, he feels that the feds need to be involved (well, duh - like they aren't already). The piece also associated the near miss with a fatal (x2) train-car in Rochester (hmmm - we've already discussed that here, no further comment necessary), and the 7 car derailment in Rochester.

The closing comment was that CSX had told channel 3 that the Amtrak train had moved over to the other track.

Still sounds to me like a dispatcher error (my opinion - you've seen the same facts I have). I just don't see the Amtrak engineer stopping, throwing the crossover switches, then proceeding. As I recall, he was probably by himself in the cab.

In the meantime, we'll wait for the final official reports to be issued.

[Anonymous]

Larry-

Remember that it is possible to run through a switch that has been lined against your movement in some circumstances. I wouldn't be too quick to pass judgment until all the facts are in.

LC

QUOTE: Originally posted by tree68

The channel 3 report I saw at six (and taped) wasn't really a report. The centerpiece of the whole thing was a gentleman who was aboard the Amtrak train that rear-ended the CSX freight a couple of years ago. Of course, he feels that the feds need to be involved (well, duh - like they aren't already). The piece also associated the near miss with a fatal (x2) train-car in Rochester (hmmm - we've already discussed that here, no further comment necessary), and the 7 car derailment in Rochester.

The closing comment was that CSX had told channel 3 that the Amtrak train had moved over to the other track.

Still sounds to me like a dispatcher error (my opinion - you've seen the same facts I have). I just don't see the Amtrak engineer stopping, throwing the crossover switches, then proceeding. As I recall, he was probably by himself in the cab.

In the meantime, we'll wait for the final official reports to be issued.

[tree68]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Limitedclear

Larry-

Remember that it is possible to run through a switch that has been lined against your movement in some circumstances. I wouldn't be too quick to pass judgment until all the facts are in.

LC

Agreed.

[Anonymous]

DAMN IM JUST WALKIN DISTANCE FROM THERE[8D]

[JPowell]

Here's the latest that I've heard.....
Amtrak's engineer missed the 3 signals right before both trains stopped that would have told him/her that CSX had a Eastbound and that they had to slow down and switch to the other main. (supposedly, info came from the black box on the Amtrak engine).
As for who controlls the tracks, combination of 2 controllers... One's in Albany and one's in Masena (sp?) up by the NY/Canada Border.
As for how far from the Kirkville Rd crossing....about 1/4 to 1/2 mile west, right about where the "light" signals are on Saintsville Rd, which runs right along side the tracks from Kirkville into Minoa.

[Anonymous]

Not surprized!
have done work on some of their equipment CSX and most should be scrapped instead of repaired and they state that they have no money to spend on repairs!!
Maybe now they will find some

[tree68]

QUOTE: Originally posted by JPowell

Here's the latest that I've heard.....
Amtrak's engineer missed the 3 signals right before both trains stopped that would have told him/her that CSX had a Eastbound and that they had to slow down and switch to the other main. (supposedly, info came from the black box on the Amtrak engine).
As for who controlls the tracks, combination of 2 controllers... One's in Albany and one's in Masena (sp?) up by the NY/Canada Border.
As for how far from the Kirkville Rd crossing....about 1/4 to 1/2 mile west, right about where the "light" signals are on Saintsville Rd, which runs right along side the tracks from Kirkville into Minoa.

Hmmm - Last I knew, the regional dispatcher for this area was at Selkirk (Albany). There may be a local dispatcher at Dewitt Yard (seems like I've heard one when I've been in the area), but I'm virtually certain there is not a dispatcher at Massena. Based on the dispatching I regularly hear, the entire Montreal Secondary (CP291 to BROUSE) is controlled by the NE dispatcher (Selkirk). Next time I see the Watertown trainmaster (a former dispatcher) I'll ask him.

That doesn't change the possibility that the Amtrak engineer missed the signals... That's what caused the last Amtrak-CSX accident in Syracuse.

[Anonymous]

The other day as we watched the web cam a UP general freight suddenly stopped
at the Diamond just befor a BNSF piggy/container train shot through.they sat there
after as if it was a near miss..

God help us all

David brown

[Anonymous]

I don't know the area,

Is this Dark Territory?

And if so, Dark territory around a major city on a main line Doesn't exactly strike me as an extremely brilliant idea

[Anonymous]

No Kevin, it is not dark territory. The area in question is on the CSX Main Line (former NYC Water Level Route) and is fully signalled under NORAC Rule 261. The Amtrak train ran through an interlocking switch past a home signal displaying a stop signal indication according to the news reports I have seen.

LC

QUOTE: Originally posted by kevinstheRRman

I don't know the area,

Is this Dark Territory?

And if so, Dark territory around a major city on a main line Doesn't exactly strike me as an extremely brilliant idea

[JPowell]

Tree69 - I got my dispatcher info from a former ConRail/CSX engineer who now runs a barbershop in Minoa. As for local, I'm not sure. I personally have a 6yr old who likes to go over to the CSX Yard in Minoa and watch all the action, and loves to go up on the pedestrian walk over @ the East end of the yard. On occassion, there have been some 'older' guys up there with scanners, listening to the action (obvious railfans)! Also, CSX has installed some remotes on some of their cabs that do the switching in the yard there.

[Anonymous]

Well, my Conclusion-

Someone Screwed Up!

And their name Begins with an A and ends with a K

[Anonymous]

the initial fra report is the amtrak engineer was on the cell phone and missed two signals and saw the last one with the approaching headlight and dumped the train.

[RudyRockvilleMD]

Questions:
1. Was the Amtrak engineer alone in the cab?
2. To whom was he talking to on his cell phone? A CSX dispatcher?

As all of you know I am no fan of Amtrak, but whenever there has been an accident or a close call involving an Amtrak train, Amtrak has not been at fault. If the Amtrak engineer was at fault then this was a rare occurrence.

[tree68]

QUOTE: Originally posted by JPowell

Tree69 - I got my dispatcher info from a former ConRail/CSX engineer who now runs a barbershop in Minoa. As for local, I'm not sure. I personally have a 6yr old who likes to go over to the CSX Yard in Minoa and watch all the action, and loves to go up on the pedestrian walk over @ the East end of the yard. On occassion, there have been some 'older' guys up there with scanners, listening to the action (obvious railfans)! Also, CSX has installed some remotes on some of their cabs that do the switching in the yard there.

http://www.crisny.org/not-for-profit/railroad/se_branc.htm#freqs

Lists all CSX dispatchers for the Albany District. Massena isn't on the list.

[JPowell]

QUOTE: Originally posted by RudyRockvilleMD

Questions:
1. Was the Amtrak engineer alone in the cab?
2. To whom was he talking to on his cell phone? A CSX dispatcher?

As all of you know I am no fan of Amtrak, but whenever there has been an accident or a close call involving an Amtrak train, Amtrak has not been at fault. If the Amtrak engineer was at fault then this was a rare occurrence.

Rudy,
Not at all true about Amtrak never being at fault. A few years back, a Amtrak train smacked the rear end of a CSX near the Amtrak station here in Syracuse, due to operator error!

[mvlandsw]

QUOTE: Originally posted by JPowell

QUOTE: Originally posted by RudyRockvilleMD

Questions:
1. Was the Amtrak engineer alone in the cab?
2. To whom was he talking to on his cell phone? A CSX dispatcher?

As all of you know I am no fan of Amtrak, but whenever there has been an accident or a close call involving an Amtrak train, Amtrak has not been at fault. If the Amtrak engineer was at fault then this was a rare occurrence.

Rudy,
Not at all true about Amtrak never being at fault. A few years back, a Amtrak train smacked the rear end of a CSX near the Amtrak station here in Syracuse, due to operator error!

Amtrak also rear ended a freight in Cumberland Md. after misreading one of the poorly designed Seaboard/CSX signals.