wsherrick wrote:...A single SD double digit anything can't haul 5,000 tons. It takes several of them to do it.
VAPEURCHAPELON wrote: wsherrick wrote: The average time freight tonnage for an A Class was 5600 tons. Their maximum tonnage ratings for that speed was 7500 tons. That's not a mis-print. This was determined in testing and in actual practice could take a few more tons at that speed if required.But to do this 5200 dhp are not enough. I still have some kind of problem with that number. It doesn't make sense considering the size and speed of loads these engines did haul. And it soens't make sense that the Y-6 should have put out MORE hp than the bigger class A with larger fire boxes, more heating surfaces, etc.I have to look into the books and papers I have available. wsherrick wrote:A single SD double digit anything can't haul 5,000 tons. It takes several of them to do it.Nah, it isn't THAT bad. On C&O, three SD-40 were used on 18000 ton coal drags, makes 6000 tons for each. If you mean 5000 tons at 60 mph, I think two of these will do the job.
wsherrick wrote: The average time freight tonnage for an A Class was 5600 tons. Their maximum tonnage ratings for that speed was 7500 tons. That's not a mis-print. This was determined in testing and in actual practice could take a few more tons at that speed if required.
The average time freight tonnage for an A Class was 5600 tons. Their maximum tonnage ratings for that speed was 7500 tons. That's not a mis-print. This was determined in testing and in actual practice could take a few more tons at that speed if required.
But to do this 5200 dhp are not enough. I still have some kind of problem with that number. It doesn't make sense considering the size and speed of loads these engines did haul. And it soens't make sense that the Y-6 should have put out MORE hp than the bigger class A with larger fire boxes, more heating surfaces, etc.
I have to look into the books and papers I have available.
wsherrick wrote:A single SD double digit anything can't haul 5,000 tons. It takes several of them to do it.
A single SD double digit anything can't haul 5,000 tons. It takes several of them to do it.
Nah, it isn't THAT bad. On C&O, three SD-40 were used on 18000 ton coal drags, makes 6000 tons for each. If you mean 5000 tons at 60 mph, I think two of these will do the job.
Those are the figures that I confirmed from 3 different books. It has been said that the N&W used conservative numbers on their locomotive stats. I can't go back and ask them personally. The flux capacitor is broken on my Dolorean at present.
wsherrick wrote:The average time freight tonnage for an A Class was 5600 tons. Their maximum tonnage ratings for that speed was 7500 tons. That's not a mis-print. This was determined in testing and in actual practice could take a few more tons at that speed if required.
wholelephant wrote:Does anyone know, then, 1) how big a train the A could haul at 60 mph? What happened to N&W fast freights after dieselization? Figure this is the more critical figure today than the decade of dieselization, when the diesel's advantages on slow, heavy trains and fast light trains were more decisive. The speed limit today comes from the expense of fuel on fast freights. It is well documented in the pages of TRAINS if little realized that diesels are very, very expensive on fast, heavy trains, 5 hp/ton being about the economic limit. July 1970, January 1974, May 1986, April 1990. The Niagara was both more powerful at 60 mph than a 6000 hp E7 and cost less to operate, on the other hand, per March 1984 article. Too bad one was never tried on a Flexi-Van. 2) How fast could a 2400 hp SD24 or 2500 hp SD35 haul 5,000 tons?
The fate of the N&W's fast time freights was the same as most other railroads after dieselization. They vanished. The era of "drag freights" returned as railroads tried to cut costs buy piling as many cars into a train as they could which as a management decision, reduced levels of service with the result that time sensitive merchandise, etc. only went over to the truckers all the faster.
wholelephant wrote: 6. Figure also it is not merely oil shortages in the offing, but, less debateably, capital shortages.7. Higher interest rates would put a premium on steam's lower capital cost.
6. Figure also it is not merely oil shortages in the offing, but, less debateably, capital shortages.
7. Higher interest rates would put a premium on steam's lower capital cost.
Given the combination of longer economic service life and lower cost per horsepower, if the relationship held today for the comparison that existed in the 1950s, the total capital investment in motive power in the form of reciprocating Steam would be about one-third of that for the current fleet of Diesel-electrics on a per-horsepower basis. The cost of financing that capital investment was simply yet another economic burden placed on top of the capital investment itself.
Now that I am finding my way around this site, which is a bit difficult, and have read through
most of the 400 plus comments in this line, I would like to make the following comments:
1. The first eight or nine pages struck me as superficial and simplisitc, for the most part.
After that the quality improved dramatically.
2. There are lies, *** lies, and statistics, as Mark Twain said. It is easier to poison a dog, which
swallows everything whole, that a cat, which sniffs, paws, and tastes its food before eating.
3. The railroads dieselized on fast, light trains and slow, heavy trains, on which the diesel's
advantages were most apparent. Within a decade of dieselization, however, they had to run
fast, heavy trains, on which it is a different story. Brown"s study, based on data prior to that, still made a distinction between yard and road service.
4. They still have to run fast, heavy trains, but now hampered by fuel costs. It takes twice
the diesel horsepower to haul a train at 70 mph as at 50. (TRAINS, Jan 1974, May 1986) The
old steam-diesel debate did not deal with this consideration.
5. Train speed is not only a matter of customer service. There is also equipment and plant utilization.
There is also the matter of generating capacity, which, under mobile generation, has to equal
fleet horespower. The peak load on Penny's central plant in WWII, however, averaged 16% and
never exceeded 22%.
Anyone want to argue the current federal and trade deficits are sustainable? See the April 6, 2008 60 Minutes on foreign security funds holding hundreds of billions in American assets, the sale of which would skyrocket interest rates and collapse the dollar. You do not have to be a right-wing sore tooth to make such an argument, as have such impeccable Establishmentarians as Perter Perterson and Robert Hormats. Figure also capital shortages could hamstring oil production, regardless of what is in the ground, per Maugeri, The Age of Oil.
7. Higher interest rates would put a premium on steam's lower capital cost. Dieselization did occur
under artificially low interest rates. Interest costs would also put a premium on lower transit times,
as on the old Great Northern silk trains.
8. We ought to be thinking about a locomotive for hauling 5,000 ton trains at 80 mph. My nomination
is an updated Pennsy turbine, call it the Q-3. The problem with the S-2 was low speed performance. A deflection displacement turbine is little more than a hole in the boiler starting out. Something as simple as a reverse gear for the small reverse turbine might have made it a superb locomotive. The turbine also avoided valve and balance problems, also allowing smaller
drivers. See Railway Mechanical Engineer, March and April 1945, for not merely reciprocating steam's superiority at speed, but turbine over piston. Also see Pennsy Power for the turbine exhausting at 15lb pressure, indicating great efficiency.
Jerry Pinkepank's July 1970 article on electrification could be updated in twenty-five words or less. Like, Southern Pacific is a fallen flag. There is another problem, besides the enormous capital investment. The power industry has peak-period charges, while railroads expect a flat rate.
The electric power industry, the most capital intensive, has its own capital problems.
Sacrificed their destiny to outside forces?
How about some examples?
1. The incident in Withuhn, Rails Across America, in which an unnamed railroad wanted modifications to an EMD design in 1940. EMD said, we will build you a locomotive and let you use it for six months, free. If you do not like it, return it. If you like it, buy it.
2. Ed King's Sept 2004 article on the railroads being sold high-wheel articulateds for work best done by the N&W Y-6b, unfashionable as compounds were.
3. The ICC Milwaukee Rd. bankruptcy report (131 ICC 615) on the electrification being approved by a board with banking, electric power, and copper interests doing business with the railroad. The big selling point of electrification was the train going down the hill pulling another going up the hill, but the railroad contracted to buy twice as much electricity as it needed.
4. Railway Mechanical Engineer becoming Railway Locomotives and Cars about 1952.
daveklepper wrote: I wish to make a point I have made earlier. There is absolutely no reason to assume that the return of steam, which I am certain will occur, because of bad policies that are going to result in petroleum prices going through the roof (until wisdom prevails, and the vast untapped Canadian reserves are finally exploited)-- will involve traditional reciprocating steam locomotives. Past experience with turbine steam locomotives failed because:1. Attempt to use just one turbine for a wide variety of power outputs, rather than simply at and near rotational speeds of maximum efficiency (all examples).2. Transmission problems, either mechanical (PRR S-2) or electrical (N&W). (The S-2 had two turbines, alright, but one was for forward motion and one for reverse! What a waste!)The solution is a locomotive embodying all electric transmission advances and technology of the modern diesel, with boilers and turbines derived from modern power plant design, and at least two but possibly three or four turbines of different sizes to be used in combination to provide multiple efficient throttle positions.I could see retention of the conventional reciprocating locomotive's outline design, like the PRR S-2. Larger driving wheels (without rods or counterweights) would permit larger and easier to maintain motors, whether ac or dc, and a boiler with modern space-age lagging doesn't need a car body for housing and exposing it, and the lagging without carbody might make some forms of maintenance easier. And for four turbines, locating two in the traditional position of the reciprocating locomotive's cylinders and two half way back, like the S-1. T-1, and Q-1 and Q-2. Or it might be better to support the whole shebang on two six-wheel large-wheel trucks, like a Garrett or Mason Fairley, but the tubines on the main frame, possibly all four, two on each side, between the trucks. A conventional tender and stoker would follow. Or the tender could be on the main-frame like a Garrett or Farley-tank-engine. Either there would be return of the firemen to employment or there would be a requirement that the trainman be a second man in the cab with the locomotive operating above walking speed. This will be a lot easier on the track and be easier to maintain and not require so much revival of old technology than the reciprocating steam locomotive.Because of water consumption, I would not expect such locomotives to be used in desert operations, but there are plenty of USA locations where they would have economic advantages over diesels.
I wish to make a point I have made earlier. There is absolutely no reason to assume that the return of steam, which I am certain will occur, because of bad policies that are going to result in petroleum prices going through the roof (until wisdom prevails, and the vast untapped Canadian reserves are finally exploited)-- will involve traditional reciprocating steam locomotives. Past experience with turbine steam locomotives failed because:
1. Attempt to use just one turbine for a wide variety of power outputs, rather than simply at and near rotational speeds of maximum efficiency (all examples).
2. Transmission problems, either mechanical (PRR S-2) or electrical (N&W). (The S-2 had two turbines, alright, but one was for forward motion and one for reverse! What a waste!)
The solution is a locomotive embodying all electric transmission advances and technology of the modern diesel, with boilers and turbines derived from modern power plant design, and at least two but possibly three or four turbines of different sizes to be used in combination to provide multiple efficient throttle positions.
I could see retention of the conventional reciprocating locomotive's outline design, like the PRR S-2. Larger driving wheels (without rods or counterweights) would permit larger and easier to maintain motors, whether ac or dc, and a boiler with modern space-age lagging doesn't need a car body for housing and exposing it, and the lagging without carbody might make some forms of maintenance easier. And for four turbines, locating two in the traditional position of the reciprocating locomotive's cylinders and two half way back, like the S-1. T-1, and Q-1 and Q-2. Or it might be better to support the whole shebang on two six-wheel large-wheel trucks, like a Garrett or Mason Fairley, but the tubines on the main frame, possibly all four, two on each side, between the trucks. A conventional tender and stoker would follow. Or the tender could be on the main-frame like a Garrett or Farley-tank-engine. Either there would be return of the firemen to employment or there would be a requirement that the trainman be a second man in the cab with the locomotive operating above walking speed. This will be a lot easier on the track and be easier to maintain and not require so much revival of old technology than the reciprocating steam locomotive.
Because of water consumption, I would not expect such locomotives to be used in desert operations, but there are plenty of USA locations where they would have economic advantages over diesels.
Although it seems exeedingly unlikely that any kind of Rankine cyle/external combustion motive power will be built for line haul service in North America again, as a thought experiment why would your modern coal fired engine necessarily use steam expansion of any sort?
You mention General Electric, a company who are at the leading edge of coal gasifier technology and also manufacture one of the more popular diesel cycle engines using gas fuel (Jernbacher, many are used in NG fueled electrical generation applications). In fact GE is adapting a jernbacher engine for use in a new locomotive model being built for UK service(although in that application the engine will run on diesel fuel rather than Natural Gas as it's designed to do). Such a lcomotive would be much more compatible with existing motive power facilities and practices and should be as thermally efficient as your triple or quad steam turbine....
Interestingly Modern Steam enthusiast/promoter Harry Valentine has proposed such a multi- turbine unit:
http://www.internationalsteam.co.uk/trains/newsteam/modern10.htm
"I Often Dream of Trains"-From the Album of the Same Name by Robyn Hitchcock
selector wrote:Arrgh!! I didn't even state myself correctly.
Arrgh!! I didn't even state myself correctly.
Me too, me too! (and nobody did realize it?)
vapeurchapelon wrote:without switching to compound mode
without switching to compound mode
This must be without switching to simple mode! That means the engine still works as a compound but the LP cylinders nonetheless receive a certain amount of fresh steam to increase TE.
MichaelSol wrote: selector wrote: What, and how much, will the "new" replacement in steam engines need in the way of lubricants? If they improve efficiencies by a factor of 2, would it not be reasonable to presume that the sophistication and the numbers/amounts of lubes would increase commensurately? Insofar as external combustion is concerned, the combustion cycle on the steam engine was separate from the production of mechanical power. On the diesel engine, they are part of the same process. This explains the difficulties for the diesel engine from an emissions standpoint, but is also the problem from a lubricant standpoint. The combustion process on the reciprocating steam engine requires no lubricant. The combustion process therefore consumes no lubricant. Because the diesel engine combines the combustion and mechanical function, it is an inherent feature of the diesel engine that it will consume lubricant where the external combustion steam engine won't, can't. The difference is inherent in the design. Signicant improvements in the combustion process for a steam engine can't affect lubricant consumption.
selector wrote: What, and how much, will the "new" replacement in steam engines need in the way of lubricants? If they improve efficiencies by a factor of 2, would it not be reasonable to presume that the sophistication and the numbers/amounts of lubes would increase commensurately?
What, and how much, will the "new" replacement in steam engines need in the way of lubricants? If they improve efficiencies by a factor of 2, would it not be reasonable to presume that the sophistication and the numbers/amounts of lubes would increase commensurately?
Insofar as external combustion is concerned, the combustion cycle on the steam engine was separate from the production of mechanical power. On the diesel engine, they are part of the same process. This explains the difficulties for the diesel engine from an emissions standpoint, but is also the problem from a lubricant standpoint. The combustion process on the reciprocating steam engine requires no lubricant. The combustion process therefore consumes no lubricant. Because the diesel engine combines the combustion and mechanical function, it is an inherent feature of the diesel engine that it will consume lubricant where the external combustion steam engine won't, can't. The difference is inherent in the design. Signicant improvements in the combustion process for a steam engine can't affect lubricant consumption.
Excellent observation M. Sol!! I'm sure the same comparison can be made for the straight electric locomotive as well.
In as far as the traditional needs of steam locomotive lubrication-Most of that was already eliminated by the '50's. Today the advance of sealed bearings and rubbing surfaces have advanced to the point that all moving parts, pins, journals, would require virtually no extra lubrication such as existed on a standard steam engine with friction bearings on axles, rods and journals. These items have been eliminated on every other kind of rolling stock so the same would hold true for a new steam locomotive as well.
Insofar as external combustion is concerned, the combustion cycle on the steam engine was separate from the production of mechanical power. On the diesel engine, they are part of the same process. This is part of the higher efficiency of the diesel engine, but also explains the difficulties for the diesel engine from an emissions standpoint, and also the problem from a lubricant standpoint. The combustion process on the reciprocating steam engine requires no lubricant. The combustion process therefore consumes no lubricant. Because the diesel engine combines the combustion and mechanical function, it is an inherent feature of the diesel engine that it will consume lubricant where the external combustion steam engine won't, can't. The difference is inherent in the design. Signicant improvements in the combustion process for a steam engine can't affect lubricant consumption.
VAPEURCHAPELON wrote: selector wrote: I thought the Y6b class used to start in compound, and that they also had boosters. That combination would have yielded the max published figures for TE...would it not? I seem to recall this from www.steamlocomotive.com without actually checking. -CrandellCrandell,both is wrong. They used to start in simple mode, because that way you get the most TE (because all 4 cylinders get fresh steam at nearly boiler pressuere).The Y classes did not have a booster. What they had is a special valve permitting a certain amount of fresh steam going into the LP cylinders without switching to compound mode. That's why it was often called "booster valve". The increase of TE was large enough that it required some lead weight built into the front engine frames! This was no problem because of the high quality N&W track, and somewhere I read that the engines even ran better with the lead.
selector wrote: I thought the Y6b class used to start in compound, and that they also had boosters. That combination would have yielded the max published figures for TE...would it not? I seem to recall this from www.steamlocomotive.com without actually checking. -Crandell
I thought the Y6b class used to start in compound, and that they also had boosters. That combination would have yielded the max published figures for TE...would it not? I seem to recall this from www.steamlocomotive.com without actually checking.
-Crandell
Crandell,
both is wrong. They used to start in simple mode, because that way you get the most TE (because all 4 cylinders get fresh steam at nearly boiler pressuere).
The Y classes did not have a booster. What they had is a special valve permitting a certain amount of fresh steam going into the LP cylinders without switching to compound mode. That's why it was often called "booster valve". The increase of TE was large enough that it required some lead weight built into the front engine frames! This was no problem because of the high quality N&W track, and somewhere I read that the engines even ran better with the lead.
Arrgh!! I didn't even state myself correctly. I had meant to say "simple", not compound. on startup.
But about the "booster", I recall very recently an announcer saying that the Y's had boosters in later iterations...one of the Pentrex-style/Madacy productions videos I think, but maybe I misheard. If I see/hear it again, I'll try to remember to remark on it to get the source. Thanks for the corrections and info, VC.
wsherrick wrote: VAPEURCHAPELON wrote: wsherrick wrote: Class A:Starting Tractive Effort: 114,000 LBS.Maximum DRAWBAR horsepower: 5,350 @ 40 MPHContinuous Drawbar horsepower: 5100 between 24 & 64 MPHTonnage Ratings: Williamson to Columbus OH-16,000 t0 18,000 tons @ 15 to 30 MPH.Time Freight Tonnage: 7,500 Tons @ 64 MPHClass Y6b:Starting Tractive Effort: 160,000 pounds, 152,000 continuous TE in compound mode.Maximum Drawbar Horsepower: 5,600 horsepower @ 25 MPHContinuous Drawbar Horsepower: 5000-5100 between 17 & 34 MPHTonnage Rating for a single Y6b on the 1.6% grade between Gln Lynn and Bluefield Summit is 3900 Tons.Maximum Rating for 2 Y6b's on the same grade is 10,000 to 11,000 TonsSource: N&W Records, circa 1950I believe that some of these are not correct.class A:- starting TE of 114000 pounds is the calculated TE, actually measured were as much as 119000- max drawbar hp was above 6200 (boiler is larger than on Y-6) class Y-6b:- 152000 pounds TE continious I think is compound mode plus intercepting valve opened, not compound alone- if two Y-6 engines could lug 11000 tons up 1,6% grade, why could a single one take only 3900 tons on the same grade? Actually I would expect a bit moe than half of the tonnage for two engine, but 6000 tons up 1,6% seems to be very high. Do you could look again if these statistics are correct? Yes, I will be happy to check those figures for you. The figures for the A are taken from an N&W trade publication from 1950 and others from: "N&W Giant of Steam. If I made an error I will be more than happy to correct it. Thanks.
VAPEURCHAPELON wrote: wsherrick wrote: Class A:Starting Tractive Effort: 114,000 LBS.Maximum DRAWBAR horsepower: 5,350 @ 40 MPHContinuous Drawbar horsepower: 5100 between 24 & 64 MPHTonnage Ratings: Williamson to Columbus OH-16,000 t0 18,000 tons @ 15 to 30 MPH.Time Freight Tonnage: 7,500 Tons @ 64 MPHClass Y6b:Starting Tractive Effort: 160,000 pounds, 152,000 continuous TE in compound mode.Maximum Drawbar Horsepower: 5,600 horsepower @ 25 MPHContinuous Drawbar Horsepower: 5000-5100 between 17 & 34 MPHTonnage Rating for a single Y6b on the 1.6% grade between Gln Lynn and Bluefield Summit is 3900 Tons.Maximum Rating for 2 Y6b's on the same grade is 10,000 to 11,000 TonsSource: N&W Records, circa 1950I believe that some of these are not correct.class A:- starting TE of 114000 pounds is the calculated TE, actually measured were as much as 119000- max drawbar hp was above 6200 (boiler is larger than on Y-6) class Y-6b:- 152000 pounds TE continious I think is compound mode plus intercepting valve opened, not compound alone- if two Y-6 engines could lug 11000 tons up 1,6% grade, why could a single one take only 3900 tons on the same grade? Actually I would expect a bit moe than half of the tonnage for two engine, but 6000 tons up 1,6% seems to be very high. Do you could look again if these statistics are correct?
wsherrick wrote: Class A:Starting Tractive Effort: 114,000 LBS.Maximum DRAWBAR horsepower: 5,350 @ 40 MPHContinuous Drawbar horsepower: 5100 between 24 & 64 MPHTonnage Ratings: Williamson to Columbus OH-16,000 t0 18,000 tons @ 15 to 30 MPH.Time Freight Tonnage: 7,500 Tons @ 64 MPHClass Y6b:Starting Tractive Effort: 160,000 pounds, 152,000 continuous TE in compound mode.Maximum Drawbar Horsepower: 5,600 horsepower @ 25 MPHContinuous Drawbar Horsepower: 5000-5100 between 17 & 34 MPHTonnage Rating for a single Y6b on the 1.6% grade between Gln Lynn and Bluefield Summit is 3900 Tons.Maximum Rating for 2 Y6b's on the same grade is 10,000 to 11,000 TonsSource: N&W Records, circa 1950
Class A:
Starting Tractive Effort: 114,000 LBS.
Maximum DRAWBAR horsepower: 5,350 @ 40 MPH
Continuous Drawbar horsepower: 5100 between 24 & 64 MPH
Tonnage Ratings: Williamson to Columbus OH-16,000 t0 18,000 tons @ 15 to 30 MPH.
Time Freight Tonnage: 7,500 Tons @ 64 MPH
Class Y6b:
Starting Tractive Effort: 160,000 pounds, 152,000 continuous TE in compound mode.
Maximum Drawbar Horsepower: 5,600 horsepower @ 25 MPH
Continuous Drawbar Horsepower: 5000-5100 between 17 & 34 MPH
Tonnage Rating for a single Y6b on the 1.6% grade between Gln Lynn and Bluefield Summit is 3900 Tons.
Maximum Rating for 2 Y6b's on the same grade is 10,000 to 11,000 Tons
Source: N&W Records, circa 1950
I believe that some of these are not correct.
class A:
- starting TE of 114000 pounds is the calculated TE, actually measured were as much as 119000
- max drawbar hp was above 6200 (boiler is larger than on Y-6)
class Y-6b:
- 152000 pounds TE continious I think is compound mode plus intercepting valve opened, not compound alone
- if two Y-6 engines could lug 11000 tons up 1,6% grade, why could a single one take only 3900 tons on the same grade? Actually I would expect a bit moe than half of the tonnage for two engine, but 6000 tons up 1,6% seems to be very high. Do you could look again if these statistics are correct?
Yes, I will be happy to check those figures for you. The figures for the A are taken from an N&W trade publication from 1950 and others from: "N&W Giant of Steam. If I made an error I will be more than happy to correct it. Thanks.
I just checked my references and the figures for the A Class are correct as posted. The 6300 horsepower rating was initially published as the maximum horsepower rating but was later revised downward because during testing it was found that there was a defective instrument in the dynamometer car and later tests determined the correct horsepower rating.
The tonnage rating for the two Y6b's of 11,000 tons was for the Radford Division which had a ruling grade of 1%. My mistake there.
The simpling valves were not added to the Y6b's until 1953 and after. They also had modifications to the valve events, port openings and redesigned stacks and exhaust nozzles. Before these changes the Continuous tractive effort rating was 126,838 thousand pounds. I could not find conclusive evidence in my reference material that indicated if the 152,000 pounds of tractive effort rating was due to the use of the simpling valve or not. So you could be right about that.
Yes the Y6b's had lead added to the lead engine to eliminate slipping.
No N&W engines had boosters. The simpling valve was referred to as a, "booster valve."
selector wrote:I thought the Y6b class used to start in compound, and that they also had boosters. That combination would have yielded the max published figures for TE...would it not? I seem to recall this from www.steamlocomotive.com without actually checking. -Crandell
VAPEURCHAPELON wrote: I believe that some of these are not correct.class A:- starting TE of 114000 pounds is the calculated TE, actually measured were as much as 119000- max drawbar hp was above 6200 (boiler is larger than on Y-6) class Y-6b:- 152000 pounds TE continious I think is compound mode plus intercepting valve opened, not compound alone- if two Y-6 engines could lug 11000 tons up 1,6% grade, why could a single one take only 3900 tons on the same grade? Actually I would expect a bit moe than half of the tonnage for two engine, but 6000 tons up 1,6% seems to be very high. Do you could look again if these statistics are correct?
blue streak 1 wrote: I'm not clear on the water problem. Modern steam electric plants have to take their own water from streams and rivers that is untreated. I've heard that steam operators of today have to be very careful where they get their water. Because many local water systems treat water to make it taste better that water cannot be used. How about it you steam operators lets us know. The lack of good water on some RRs suggest that they would not want to start hauling proper water al la Santa FE. The techniques discussed for newer technology almost suggest distilled water would be needed.New steam facilities would be very costly to build - sand, water, coal, heaters for water storage, ash pits, servicing facilities, wyes or turntables, etc. All old steam heads i've talked to say you don't work outside on those "beasts" in cold weather.
I'm not clear on the water problem. Modern steam electric plants have to take their own water from streams and rivers that is untreated. I've heard that steam operators of today have to be very careful where they get their water. Because many local water systems treat water to make it taste better that water cannot be used. How about it you steam operators lets us know. The lack of good water on some RRs suggest that they would not want to start hauling proper water al la Santa FE. The techniques discussed for newer technology almost suggest distilled water would be needed.
New steam facilities would be very costly to build - sand, water, coal, heaters for water storage, ash pits, servicing facilities, wyes or turntables, etc. All old steam heads i've talked to say you don't work outside on those "beasts" in cold weather.
Modern steam electric plants probably have their own treatment facilities on site. I can't imagine one of them putting raw river water into the boiler.
At Steamtown, we use Scranton City Water, but it may be from the lines that supply the fire hydrants rather than the drinking water system. The water is sampled from the boilers daily and the type and amount of chemicals needed is added to the tender tank. Also, the boilers are washed (internally) once every thirty days during the operating season to remove any scale buildup. Distilled water would be ideal, but costly. Simple neutralized water with a minimum of minerals is the desirable type.
wsherrick wrote:Class A:Starting Tractive Effort: 114,000 LBS.Maximum DRAWBAR horsepower: 5,350 @ 40 MPHContinuous Drawbar horsepower: 5100 between 24 & 64 MPHTonnage Ratings: Williamson to Columbus OH-16,000 t0 18,000 tons @ 15 to 30 MPH.Time Freight Tonnage: 7,500 Tons @ 64 MPHClass Y6b:Starting Tractive Effort: 160,000 pounds, 152,000 continuous TE in compound mode.Maximum Drawbar Horsepower: 5,600 horsepower @ 25 MPHContinuous Drawbar Horsepower: 5000-5100 between 17 & 34 MPHTonnage Rating for a single Y6b on the 1.6% grade between Gln Lynn and Bluefield Summit is 3900 Tons.Maximum Rating for 2 Y6b's on the same grade is 10,000 to 11,000 TonsSource: N&W Records, circa 1950
Lee Koch wrote: JonathanS wrote: In the case of the Santa Fe the use of diesels permitted AT&SF to eliminate all of the non revenue trains that they had to run to supply water in the deserts of New Mexico, Arizona, California and Texas. All of the water to resupply the steam locomotives had to be hauled in because the water was either unavailable, or unusable. So for the Santa Fe dieselization was a no brainer.Can you imagine what a return to steam could mean for western railroads? I don't even want to think about California emmissions restrictions and water conservation constraints. I have to agree with Jonathan!Now some folks on this thread have been claiming that dieselisation, and solely dieselisation, led to higher operating costs, less return on investments, and the overall demise of North American railroading. I understand that a love of steam can cause tunnel-vision (no pun intended). Now, after consulting my history books, it seems that the US economy was experiencing a recession around 1960, a date by which the steam-diesel transition can be considered complete. Obviously there were many external factors contributing to railroads' economic woes. As for the supposed numbers "proving" it was diesel's fault (sounds like an episode of "Thomas the Tank Engine"), never believe a statistic you didn't personally falsify! I once read a study which "proved" that red cars get stopped more often by the cops than cars of another color. Turns out that more high horsepower sportscars are sold in red than in any other color. It wasn't the red paint causing the speeding tickets, it was the powerful motor in the car. The color was actually irrelevant.Steam survived over here in western Europe almost 20 years longer than in North America. If, by the 70s, railroads could have proven that steam were more efficient and cost effective than diesel, surely European railroads were in a position to stick with steam. Yet they made the transition. Why? Because steam is NOT cheaper and more efficient than diesel.
JonathanS wrote: In the case of the Santa Fe the use of diesels permitted AT&SF to eliminate all of the non revenue trains that they had to run to supply water in the deserts of New Mexico, Arizona, California and Texas. All of the water to resupply the steam locomotives had to be hauled in because the water was either unavailable, or unusable. So for the Santa Fe dieselization was a no brainer.
In the case of the Santa Fe the use of diesels permitted AT&SF to eliminate all of the non revenue trains that they had to run to supply water in the deserts of New Mexico, Arizona, California and Texas. All of the water to resupply the steam locomotives had to be hauled in because the water was either unavailable, or unusable. So for the Santa Fe dieselization was a no brainer.
Can you imagine what a return to steam could mean for western railroads? I don't even want to think about California emmissions restrictions and water conservation constraints. I have to agree with Jonathan!
Now some folks on this thread have been claiming that dieselisation, and solely dieselisation, led to higher operating costs, less return on investments, and the overall demise of North American railroading. I understand that a love of steam can cause tunnel-vision (no pun intended). Now, after consulting my history books, it seems that the US economy was experiencing a recession around 1960, a date by which the steam-diesel transition can be considered complete.
Obviously there were many external factors contributing to railroads' economic woes. As for the supposed numbers "proving" it was diesel's fault (sounds like an episode of "Thomas the Tank Engine"), never believe a statistic you didn't personally falsify! I once read a study which "proved" that red cars get stopped more often by the cops than cars of another color. Turns out that more high horsepower sportscars are sold in red than in any other color. It wasn't the red paint causing the speeding tickets, it was the powerful motor in the car. The color was actually irrelevant.
Steam survived over here in western Europe almost 20 years longer than in North America. If, by the 70s, railroads could have proven that steam were more efficient and cost effective than diesel, surely European railroads were in a position to stick with steam. Yet they made the transition. Why? Because steam is NOT cheaper and more efficient than diesel.
The point has been proved over and over again with out refute. It wasn't sucessfully refuted in H.F Brown's time and it can't be on this thread. I take your red car example to illustrate your point of view. The supposed benefits of dieselization, lowered maintence, improved locomotive productivity, etc., are all because of other economic factors such as a decline in traffic overall and a decline in unprofitable short haul traffic and costs associated with that, et al. that had nothing to do with the type of power involved. So I guess it was because the diesels were painted red so to speak.
There have been repeated posts here with hard numbers to back these statments. And you call us liars. Hmm, I could be offended but I'm not, one is entitled to one's opionion even if it is based on unfounded bias and willful ignorance. So be it.
...although, to keep the argument fairly steam tight ( ), we don't really have a comparative basis to deal with the lubricant debate. What, and how much, will the "new" replacement in steam engines need in the way of lubricants? If they improve efficiencies by a factor of 2, would it not be reasonable to presume that the sophistication and the numbers/amounts of lubes would increase commensurately? It might be somewhat moot when a realistic comparison is eventually made on this part of the topic.
CopCarSS wrote: MichaelSol wrote: ...and by reducing the need for lubricantsI'm curious on this point, Michael. Do you have supporting numbers on this point? I have no idea, but I would have thought the advantage would be to the diesel on this point. Lubricating a steam locomotive seems to be a fairly labor intensive task -- at least the steam locomotives I've seen running. Is there such a quantity of lubricant in the crankcase and elsewhere on a diesel that offsets the labor costs of steam lubrication?
MichaelSol wrote: ...and by reducing the need for lubricants
I'm curious on this point, Michael. Do you have supporting numbers on this point? I have no idea, but I would have thought the advantage would be to the diesel on this point. Lubricating a steam locomotive seems to be a fairly labor intensive task -- at least the steam locomotives I've seen running. Is there such a quantity of lubricant in the crankcase and elsewhere on a diesel that offsets the labor costs of steam lubrication?
So many posts to respond to today. I'll start with this one.
Today at work I just poured 25 gallons of lubrication oil into the diesel (GE U Boat)at work. It will need that again in a few weeks. We put 1500 gallons of fuel into the tank @ $3.75 per gallon which cost $5,625.00. It will have to be filled again in a couple of weeks.
I have experience with operating these steam locomotives: Southern No. 4501, T&P 610, C&O 2716, N&W 611, N&W 1218, CO&E No. 17 and NH&I No. 40.
None of these engines needed 25 gallons of any kind of lubricating oil at one time, ever. The difference in the time to do the servicing depends on how old the engine is. The 4501 which was built in 1911 took about an hour to do all the oiling. The 611 which was built in 1950 takes about 20 minutes and oil is measured out in ounces and quarts not gallons.
You might say, well that's an old diesel. And I will answer why do many of you try and compare 60 year old steam technology with what is current? In the effort not to be redundant, I will simply say: Go back and read the thread again.
CopCarSS wrote: MichaelSol wrote: ...and by reducing the need for lubricantsI'm curious on this point, Michael. Do you have supporting numbers on this point?
I'm curious on this point, Michael. Do you have supporting numbers on this point?
From Brown:
"Lubricants "In the diesel locomotive, some of the lubricants are consumed with the fuel. The costs of lubricants are higher than for other types of motive power. "Most lubricants are products of petroleum, which has increased in cost 2.4 times since 1940. Lubricants cost $7.5 million for 33,700 steam and electric road locomotives in 1940. The equivalent steam and electric locomotives in 1957 would be 14,300, or 42.5 per cent of the 1940 number. The costs of lubricants in 1957 on the basis of above assumptions would be $7.5 x 2.4 x 0.425 or $7.7 million, a very slight increase compared with the actual cost in 1957 of $27.2 million. "Lubricants for yard service locomotives cost $1.3 million in 1940. Multiplied by the assumed rise in cost, this would be $3.1 million in 1957, compared with the actual cost of $4.4 million." Summarizing, lubricants for equivalent steam power in 1957 would have cost $10.8 million, compared with lubricant costs for diesel operation of $31.6 million. This was a net cost of $20.8 million because of dieselization.
I compared Browns' analysis, which was taken from railroad supplied data contained in Statistics of Railways of the United States with Milwaukee Road's experience.
On the Milwaukee, adjusted for ton-miles, lubricant costs increased from $419,687 in 1944, when the fleet was primarily Steam, to $1,324,196 on an equivalent ton-mile basis in 1959, an increase in lubrication costs of $904,509.
Although Brown and I used different approaches -- his by raw numbers of locomotives, mine by the amount of work done -- the results, 2.92 times the cost of lubricant for Diesel-electrics as for steam under Browns' approach, and 3.15 times the cost of lubricant for Diesel-electrics as for steam by using a "work" approach, are remarkably close suggesting that the observation is true rather than a statistical anomoly.
Since lubricant costs are generally 10-14% of the overall cost of diesel fuel used, the role of lubricants as an operating cost is significant.
KCSfan wrote: VAPEURCHAPELON wrote: IRONROOSTER wrote: All the railroads have switched, including the last major hold out - China, so I think it's pretty obvious that steam is not going to make a comeback.Yes they switched - and don't rely on the fact that they now pay between 3 and 4 times as much as they did for steam service. Just what do you mean by "3 and 4 times as much"? Initial cost per horsepower, fuel cost per ton mile hauled or something else. I would love to see a return of steam, particularly reciprocating steam not some whining turbine, but I would rate the possibility of that happening as just slightly better than a return to stagecoaches as a means of transport. I'm sure the arguments will go on and on and if any railroad executives are tuned into this thread I'll bet they are chuckling about the zeal of the railfan community for steam power.Mark
VAPEURCHAPELON wrote: IRONROOSTER wrote: All the railroads have switched, including the last major hold out - China, so I think it's pretty obvious that steam is not going to make a comeback.Yes they switched - and don't rely on the fact that they now pay between 3 and 4 times as much as they did for steam service.
IRONROOSTER wrote: All the railroads have switched, including the last major hold out - China, so I think it's pretty obvious that steam is not going to make a comeback.
All the railroads have switched, including the last major hold out - China, so I think it's pretty obvious that steam is not going to make a comeback.
Yes they switched - and don't rely on the fact that they now pay between 3 and 4 times as much as they did for steam service.
Just what do you mean by "3 and 4 times as much"? Initial cost per horsepower, fuel cost per ton mile hauled or something else. I would love to see a return of steam, particularly reciprocating steam not some whining turbine, but I would rate the possibility of that happening as just slightly better than a return to stagecoaches as a means of transport. I'm sure the arguments will go on and on and if any railroad executives are tuned into this thread I'll bet they are chuckling about the zeal of the railfan community for steam power.
Mark
They didn't specify, but it seems that they meant the complete game including every factor necessary to run trains with a given form of traction.
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