Vern MooreI always thought that an eastbound crossover from teh Santa Fe to the Cutoff would work very well at Devore. That and a second track all the way to around the point where the Cutoff goes underneath I-15 near Hesperia would keep things very fluid for UP. Plus such a connection could offer BNSF a shortcut for its trains heading to Bakersfield and could serve as an incentive to get BNSF to help pay for the additional trackage and possibly more sidings between the end of the double track segment and Mojave. After all, ATSF had seriously looked at a "Barstow Cutoff" from Cajon Summit to Mojave years ago and this is one way it could become reality now. Vern
Plus such a connection could offer BNSF a shortcut for its trains heading to Bakersfield and could serve as an incentive to get BNSF to help pay for the additional trackage and possibly more sidings between the end of the double track segment and Mojave. After all, ATSF had seriously looked at a "Barstow Cutoff" from Cajon Summit to Mojave years ago and this is one way it could become reality now. Vern
The BNSF would save minimal mileage for its direct traffic between SoCal and the PNW by a 'Barstow Cutoff'. A Devore LH connection says 'oops, we built that expensive third track up Cajon Pass for nothin'. A LH connection with the UP at Summit will be very difficult and expensive to build. At any rate, UP won't want them on Their cutoff even with some 2MT. Bottom line is, this traffic will stay routed on the 2/3MT transcon via Barstow.
The main traffic bottlenecks are in the Tehachapi mountains where improvements may be funded by Caltrans (ha ha) and BNSF - see the map for details. UP can't even justify spending $$ on its own railway there!
EDIT - Vern, just noticed you're new to Trains.com - Welcome! You may have not seen this epic topic on BNSF Cajon Pass Triple Tracking by this topics originator K.P. Harrier - it will be a good read for you - see you in a week
Links to my Google Maps ---> Sunset Route overview, SoCal metro, Yuma sub, Gila sub, SR east of Tucson, BNSF Northern Transcon and Southern Transcon *** Why you should support Ukraine! ***
Replies …
MikeF90 (8-12/8-12a):
Greetings, Mike!
Your “L[eft] H[and] crossover at Silverwood, anyone?” question is thought provoking.
As you know, the present Silverwood transition track in Cajon Pass was put in by UP after the merger with SP, and uses RIGHT handed turnouts. I don’t really think UP is interested in a transition track that would use LEFT handed turnouts.
Who might be interested, though, is likely BNSF, who I’m sure would love to save 40 miles between Mojave and Cajon Pass with a trackage rights deal on the Palmdale Cutoff, and thus avoid Barstow.
That possibility is why, in my humble opinion, BNSF erected an old style THREE-track signal bridge on their TWO-track 2.2% line between Silverwood and Walker …
… which signal bridge likely was originally located east of Barstow, at BNSF’s Daggett, where the LA&SL cuts in.
THAT type of long Silverwood area transition track would probably extend all the way from Silverwood to Alray (see the reply to Vern Moore that follows), if ever put in, and would use LEFT hand switches.
A suchlike long transition track is used by BNSF between their lines in the Barstow area (the far left track in each of the below photos).
In the meantime, aside from any games one or both railroads may or may not be playing, many UP Los Angeles-Bakersfield trains are now using the Sunset Route to access the Palmdale Cutoff and go over Cajon Pass (bottom track) …
… in taking the long way around to Bakersfield, and vice versa.
(The very top photo and the one just above, both of Cajon Pass, were shot probably a mile away from each other.)
Now … “Fantastical sidetracks”? Hehehe! At least I always try to connect things back to the main theme, the Sunset Route, and its two-tracking … try anyway …
Continued …
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- K.P.’s absolute “theorem” from early, early childhood that he has seen over and over and over again: Those that CAUSE a problem in the first place will act the most violently if questioned or exposed.
Vern Moore (8-12):
For years and years I thought like you, Vern, that such a BNSF eastbound to UP northbound transition track (and vice versa) in Devore would be ideal. But, as in the memo to MikeF90 above, I don’t think UP would initiate such. Nor do I think BNSF would do such either. All the present signals, on both the BNSF and UP, are in the wrong places in the Devore area for a transition track.
Interestingly, color light signals were very recently erected but not activated yet at UP’s Dike siding in Devore, the transition area you spoke of. (The below view is of the railroad north end.)
(BNSF’s Transcon is barely visible between NEW masts on the left in the above photo.)
I think the Alray …
… to Silverwood area (See reply to MikeF90) is the general location to watch. That location would allow a train to be temporarily parked BETWEEN the BNSF and UP lines and not block either. But, at this point in time, I see no incentive for UP to hand competitor BNSF a shortcut in its north-south traversing of Southern California, which traversing crosses the Sunset Route at Colton …
… where the Colton Flyover is presently being built.
Take care all,
K.P.
Something New in Tucson, Arizona
K.P. visited one of his trusty, knowledgeable sources, who happened to have Scotty of Star Trek fame visiting (who on earth brought him back from the dead?), and Scotty ‘beamed’ all of us over to Tucson, AZ. Unfortunately, K.P. didn’t have his camera with him, so a word report to the forum will have to suffice …
There are currently three key control points (CP’s) in Tucson. From east to west, there are CP SP988 36TH STREET (at the east end of the yard), CP SP967 22ND STREET (west of the west end of the yard, which yard is LESS than a mile long, and the CP only involves Main 2), and CP SP985 CHERRY AVE (about a half a mile further west). K.P., his source friend, and Scotty visited the Kino Ave. overpass that afforded a westward, partial view of CP SP985 CHERRY AVE.
The source advised that the old CP SP985 CHERRY AVE with only a single-crossover between Mains 1 and 2 had been redone, and the extended CP was now a universal crossovers arrangement. As we could see, the old mast signals had been replaced with signals on cantilever structures, one on each side of the Kino Ave. overpass. The crossovers utilize 30 M.P.H. switches.
Click to See: Partial Aerial View of the OLD, Single-Crossover CP SP985 CHERRY AVE
After looking things over for a few minutes, Scotty beamed us back to California.
So, there you have it folks … something new in Tucson. Undoubtedly, modifying CP SP 985 CHERRY AVE by adding another crossover was done in conjunction with the two-tracking, which is ever getting closer to Tucson in its eastward trek from the west, currently finished up to CP SP943 WYMOLA.
K. P. HarrierI think the Alray to Silverwood area (See reply to MikeF90) is the general location to watch. That location would allow a train to be temporarily parked BETWEEN the BNSF and UP lines and not block either.
UP's other dilemma with Tehachapi is with 'double stack' trains - if they want to run them, they will have to pay back their share of the costly tunnel lowering project that BNSF funded some time ago.
Now back to the Sunset Route. Tucson was visited but not the Marsh Station Road or the Stockham siding areas? Inquiring minds want to know .....
MikeF90 Tucson was visited but not the Marsh Station Road or the Stockham siding areas? Inquiring minds want to know .....
Tucson was visited but not the Marsh Station Road or the Stockham siding areas? Inquiring minds want to know .....
The Trains Are Everywhere Land
Expect tomorrow a multipart posting series under the above title, about the situation in the Loma Linda / Colton, CA area. The holdout of old target signals in the Loma Linda area is having ‘something’ happening there that may be surprising to the forum
Loma Linda - Colton, CA
Part “A” (of A-K)
Strange Things
In the late afternoon of Friday, August 17, 2012, the CP SP542 LOMA LINDA (technically in San Bernardino) to Colton, CA area was checked out. Trains were operating everywhere, and going every which way.
The eastern end of the area had more happening than just the Hunts Lane overpass construction taking place, and it is probably best described as strange.
The west end of CP SP542 LOMA LINDA (M.P. 541.3) was found, unbelievably, to have had the vertical part of a cantilever signal structure erected (right).
Because of the trees on the left, it may not have been possible for the signal between the tracks to become a LEFT signal (as so often the railroad converts to).
Looking east still, the background east end of the CP (but this side of the Waterman Ave. overpass) did not seem to have anything ‘new’ per se.
However, after studying the above photo for a while, it dawned on K.P. that the background RIGHT signal was NOT between the two mains anymore!
Continued in Part B
Part “B” (of A-K)
A previously posted photo taken almost a month and a half ago, on July 9, 2012, showed that the back right signal was also on the outside of the two mains.
However, in reviewing past photo files, two previously shown August 1, 2009 photos were found that had the back mast between the two mains as it had been for decades!
All the above photos in Parts A and B were shot eastwardly from Hunts Lane, where an overpass is now (August 2012) in the early stages of being constructed. So, a cantilever signal structure is being erected that will be BETWEEN two relatively close overpasses!
Longtime visitors to this thread will undoubtedly remember that a relatively new signal bridge at CP AL532 SIERRA became sort of blocked by the newly built Cypress Ave. overpass in Fontana.
But, there may be more to this Hunts Lane area happening than first meets the eye …
Continued in Part C
Part “C” (of A-K)
Over a mile WEST of that new cantilever structure being erected is CP SP541 ICE DECK, where an old, full signal bridge is located. The below views look west … Note the turned away SEARCHLIGHT TARGET HEADS on the NEW mast!
A view looking east from the west side of the Santa Ana River: An auto is seen crossing the tracks at the Hunts Lane grade crossing in the distance.
That above mast looks somewhat awkwardly wrong. The situation appears to be a jerry-rigged color light mast with target signal heads on it!
While it is too early to tell for sure, all this signal-work MAY be only temporary in nature, explaining the presence of new target signals when color light signals are the in-thing. Also, Hunts Lane is supposed to be open for vehicle traffic for the first year of overpass constructions, but closed the entire second year. K.P. may or may not be right in anticipating that in the second year the area tracks will be rearranged, possibly the Ice Deck siding extended eastward, which would likely necessitate a new CP to the east, unless the holding signals CP at SP543 BRYN MAWR is converted to a universal crossover location with a south side siding switch included.
The below very recently taken and posted photo of the west eastbound signals and new burial base at CP SP540 MT VERNON AVE is reshown …
… because K.P. visited the site again Friday expecting a new mast, but things remained unchanged.
Main 2 signals protect the Santa Ana River crossing, but Main 1 does not have that protection on the west side, so the new base might be to afford that. But, that is only conjectural on K.P.’s part.
Continued in Part D
Part “D” (of A-K)
The Colton Flyover
Looking west from the Mt. Vernon Ave overpass area: A DPU is seen pushing towards the background. Cross rods and poured cement are observed within the getting higher flyover.
From 9th Street now, an eastward view.
Side walling sections are now stacked up next to the flyover.
Continued in Part E
Part “E” (of A-K)
The lying flat side walling pieces have protective wood separating them.
A design is in some side walling pieces.
Continued in Part F
Part “F” (of A-K)
By the southeast quadrant’s transition track and the Colton Crossing itself, the three main bridging supports are in various stages of concreting.
Looking south (BNSF railroad west) from Valley Blvd.: Concrete blocks with support rods bracing up a construction shield.
On each side of the view are those temporary supports.
Continued in Part G
Part “G” (of A-K)
From the southwest side, a BNSF eastbound (northward) goes between the concrete support structures and gives the scene location perspective.
West of the BNSF, the current Sunset Route trackage goes between the newly concreted piers that extend to the south side.
Continued in Part H
Part “H” (of A-K)
The below June 19, 2012 crane photo is reshown. Of special interest is the ALL silver paint of the lower signal head.
On August 17, the lower head was NOT all painted silver! Perhaps the signal had been wiped out or otherwise knocked down by the heavy construction equipment in the area.
Continued in Part I
Part “I” (of A-K)
From the Rancho Ave. overpass, looking east, allot of train traffic is in the area.
A BNSF westbound from the north (railroad east, left) suddenly transitions onto the Sunset Route and heads west, probably to West Colton’s Receiving Yard.
Continued in Part J
Part “J” (of A-K)
A westward view from Rancho Ave.: A UP eastbound waits at a red signal. Its loaded well cars are on the recently relocated Main 2. Main 1 is on the right, and goes back to the upper right.
That BNSF heads west on the recently relocated Main 1:
Continued in Part K
Part “K” (of A-K)
Misc.
Lastly, some tidbits …
By Hunts Lane, eastward views in this series showed a parked UP train in the distance with a dark lead locomotive. It was UP 2001, one of two blue Salt Lake City Olympic units from ten years ago … Has it really been that long?
The below previously shown July 18, 2012 photo showed how the flyover’s side walling was getting higher and starting to block the view of seeing residential houses.
Now, one cannot even see the residential houses on the south side of the tracks.
Reference the new cantilever signal vertical structure that was pointed out in Part “A”: For comparison, another August 17, 2012 CP SP542 LOMA LINDA photo is also presented (before the Olympic unit went by).
The above cantilever elevating structure is at an appropriate distance away from Main 2 for the south side Ice Deck siding to go under it, and perhaps (“perhaps”) in the future extend past it a mile or so.
A more distant, surroundings view of the cantilever vertical section (and the trees on the left):
As brought up in Parts A and B, the just above photo’s camera location (where the Hunts Lane overpass is to be built) to the background overpass doesn’t give much room for a train to visually see and respond to a signal if it is different after passing a line of sight blackout zone.
About the number of trains … In the two or three hours K.P. was at the mentioned sites, there was so many trains on the Sunset Route and related transition tracks that he doesn’t recall seeing trains in that quantity in a long, long time. It is unknown if the economy had gotten better real fast, this was normal for this time of day, or if it was just a quirk. But, it sure was good to see all the trains running, and all the trainmen having a job and working in this economy!
Update as of Wednesday, August 22, 2012
The Milliken Ave. Flyover … and the Track That Is No More
Ontario, CA
Part I (of I-V)
Throughout the distance of the now in service flyover, the old ground level mainline has been totally removed, and the grade crossing has been paved over. Before and after eastward views:
In the just above photo center, where piers are to be erected, there is no new pavement.
Looking west:
A heavy westward telephoto:
Continued in Part II
Part II (of I-V)
A pile driver was present on the west side of Milliken Ave., and driving long piles into the ground.
Continued in Part III
Part III (of I-V)
More on the pile driver’s work:
There was smoke on each loud bang.
Continued in Part IV
Part IV (of I-V)
An accumulation of the long items awaiting their turn for being driven into the ground (lower center): Because of the compaction effect of a telephoto lens, the square rod-like beams were probably twice as long as they appear.
Also in the above view, note the now cleared pathway of the old track.
A west side view from the south looking north
The south side pathway looking west: The hill in the background seems to have had vertical landscape tubing laid. Usually such things are laid horizontally.
Continued in Part V
Part V (of I-V)
More decretive piece tops are on site now, to be put on top of the columns.
A south side eastward view:
While trains are using the Main 2 flyover, there are things to finish on it. As discerned in the photo above and other herewith, there is plenty of equipment and workers continuing throughout the area, especially with the north side Main 1 Flyover construction just beginning.
Salton Sea and the Colton-Bryn Mawr Stretch
On Friday, August 24, 2012 K.P. returned to Salton Sea in the way south of California, with a specific focus on the Bertram area (around M.P. 648) as well as the Corvina Beach general vicinity (M.P. 637), where two-tracking between those points is currently taking place. It was anticipated that new signals would have been erected on this whole stretch by now, but that was NOT the case … However, a single pair of new signals (with heads turned aside) had been erected a couple of miles to the west of the current east switch Bertram!
While the north (future Main 1, above photo’s top center) mast’s LOWER west side (left) eastbound head had a typical single bulb unit, the south (future Main 2) west side eastbound signal’s lower head had a unit for TWO-bulbs! At this point, it is unclear what such will be used for.
On the way to Salton Sea, a quick visit to the Colton (M.P. 539.9) to Bryn Mawr (M.P. 543.1) area was also made, with mixed interpretations resulting also. While the NEWLY erected signals by the east side of the Santa Ana River (M.P. 540.1) on Colton’s east side were old target signals, those at Bryn Mawr were the new color light units!
It will take a few days to sort through all the photos and compose report posts … but, expect something probably Tuesday, August 28, 2012.
K.P.,
Thank you, as always, for the great pictorial reports. It looks like construction is ready to begin on the second Milliken Avenue flyover.
In other news, it looks like a railroad flyover is the cheapest alternative for the UP Alhambra Subdivision over Fairway Drive in the City of Industry.
Near the new PHIMF trash-by-rail facility, progress seems to be barely creeping along. No grading seen east of Mission Mill Road (project west limit). The Peck Road bridge is undergoing some minor looking mods, nothing like footings for a new bridge. Likewise, the triple track RR bridge for the road under the tracks is not complete (impossible to see north side construction). West of Workman Mill Road ballast has been filled in:
East of WM, they've been busy building more of the world's most expensive retaining wall:
East of the SR-60 freeway looking west at the new tiebacks, they still aren't close to ground level:
Further east, it is hard to see any new grading for the siding. No new transmission towers have been erected to move the HV line away from the ROW; it almost looks like the project scope has been reduced.
The Salton Sea Trip
This report series will focus on three basic areas by Salton Sea (Bertram, new signals west of Bertram, and Corvina Beach). Also, the Colton to Bryn Mawr old target signals area and activity there will be focus on as well.
The Bertram Area
In the general vicinity of M.P. 648 is the east switch of the current Bertram siding. New track from the Corvina Beach area (M.P. 637) has reached all the way to here at Bertram.
Looking eastbound:
Eastward telephotos:
Looking back west, a piece of track equipment is on the future Main 1.
The above photo has strange illusions to it. The power line poles are very wind brown and lean over. The mild grade is intensified by the heavy telephoto lens.
Looking back eastward:
A strong telephoto: K.P. has had trouble distinguishing between 40 M.P.H. switches and the 50 M.P.H. type, and so too here. Because this is fast running territory, more than likely the turnouts are of the 50 M.P.H. type.
On the west side of Ranch Rd., the new second track was obviously just minimally bolted together for the time being. It has been K.P.’s experience that permanent connections between two sections of rails are with welds.
On the north side, just west of Ranch Rd., was an accumulation of rails and a few I beams for an unknown purpose.
More short rails were on the east side (lower right), along with a number of concrete ties.
A number of 141-pounds per yard color coded white insulated joints where at the Bertram site:
As well as switch stands, most likely for temporary two-tracking cut in switches.
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