Hmmm, I see that while I was using my extremely accurate 1928 RR Atlas and a sharp pencil paul was using something a little more accurate. His total miles come out to 762 and mine to 802. I hate these inconsistencys.
John
Ah, re-did the math and I came up with 770 miles (just guessing on Colton). Not sure how I came up with 802. Need to play more Mexican Train Dominoes.
john_edwards Hmmm, I see that while I was using my extremely accurate 1928 RR Atlas and a sharp pencil paul was using something a little more accurate. His total miles come out to 762 and mine to 802. I hate these inconsistencys. John
Mostly, for the "more accurate" source I used the MP figures from RWM. For the distance from Colton to Thermal in 1. and to figure out the typo in the MP for Mecal in 17., I used Google Maps and the "Get Directions" function which provides its estimate of total mileage as well as for each of the road segments. It worked pretty well for Colton to Thermal, since the railroad is mostly parallel to the route that Google selected (the Interstate), but the Vail-Mescal-El Paso segments were tougher since the railroad goes cross-country on a different alignment away from the major roads. Plus, like you I'm not familiar with the area, so first I had to find Vail and Mescal - again, entering those names into the input box worked pretty well - although I'm not sure that Vail ever showed up as a location name on the map.
Now, onto a more interesting (to me, anyway) aspect of this, as follows:
Suppose I'm a BNSF executive looking at this publicly available data, and thinking about how it affects the competitive positions of BNSF with UP (ex-SP) on that route, roughly from Texas to LA, or that portion of a longer TransCon route. What I realize is that UP has to add about 292 miles of 2nd track to be entirely 2 main tracks, including at the Colorado River crossing. At $1 million per mile - which may be low since most of the easy parts are probably done already - that's a $300+ million capital expenditure for that alone. That's a significiant chunk of UP's annual CapEx budget - they could probably do it in a single year, but only by deferring other more routine items or adding that amount to the budget. More importantly, I think it's hard - for a variety of reasons - for most railroads to gear up to install more than around 100 miles of new track per year. So as a BNSF exec, I'd say that I have a "time window" of 3 to 5 years until this route has enough capacity to be a competitive threat. As a result, during that 3 to 5 year period BNSF would have a decided advantage on this route in capacity and hence in market dominance, and most importantly, in pricing power.
Any comments or further thoughts on this ?
- Paul North.
I think there was a Fred Fairley article in Trains a few years ago that discussed this. IIRC the gist was that even if UP was double tracked all the way from LA to Chicago via El Paso there was a couple hundred mile disadvantage to BNSF's transcon. So they could get the slow stuff but not the real fast ($) traffic. But then again if the economy/rail traffic does what the experts say in a few years it may not matter as both systems will be going at full steam. (Hey, its a train forum)
It may not matter in terms of capacity - both will be full up, in that scenario - but it will matter in terms of revenues. BNSF could look at UP's route, and estimate UP's cost structure - see the discussion of "adverse RTC model runs" at the several posts dated 04-07-2009 over on the "RTC = "Rail Traffic Controller" Railroad Operations Modeling / Simulation Software" thread - http://cs.trains.com/trccs/forums/t/151535.aspx (Page 1 of 1). Then, BNSF could set its rates just a little below UPs likely rates = inherently likely well above BNSF's costs due to that couple hundred mile disadvantage, knowing that UP can't really undercut BNSF too much without UP losing money on the traffic. Thus, BNSF can make a "super-profit" on that traffic (and my IRA account will thank BNSF, too !).
john_edwards I think there was a Fred Fairley article in Trains a few years ago that discussed this. IIRC the gist was that even if UP was double tracked all the way from LA to Chicago via El Paso there was a couple hundred mile disadvantage to BNSF's transcon. So they could get the slow stuff but not the real fast ($) traffic. But then again if the economy/rail traffic does what the experts say in a few years it may not matter as both systems will be going at full steam. (Hey, its a train forum)
Numbers-numbers-numbers!!
There are many factors which come into play in addition to overall miles; and many of them can change at the discretion of the operations managers on any given day, or for any circumstance.
One such factor which immediately comes to mind when comparing the Sunset vs. the Transcon is El Paso compared with Belen and Clovis. As Mr. Frailey's fairly recent article about the Clovis to Belen operations indicated BNSF has designed both the infrastructure and the operations plan to minimize switching and delays related to 1000 mile inspections and fueling. Currently El Paso is a problem in the process of modification.
ilikeplanesmvs Thank you for the updates everyone! So, the 7 miles of double track will be from Maricopa eastward? I thought the double-tracking from Estrella to Maricopa was complete. double track is only complete from estrella to new crossovers enid. which is about 9000 feet east of the west swith of the siding enid. the doubletrack work is starting again from crossovers enid to new maricopa crossovers which will be approx 9500 feet east of maricopa siding. when that is done the siding enid and siding maricopa will disappear. which sucks cause now we'll get to pull all the way into the smells of cow town to wait for west trains
mvs Thank you for the updates everyone! So, the 7 miles of double track will be from Maricopa eastward? I thought the double-tracking from Estrella to Maricopa was complete.
Thank you for the updates everyone! So, the 7 miles of double track will be from Maricopa eastward? I thought the double-tracking from Estrella to Maricopa was complete.
double track is only complete from estrella to new crossovers enid. which is about 9000 feet east of the west swith of the siding enid. the doubletrack work is starting again from crossovers enid to new maricopa crossovers which will be approx 9500 feet east of maricopa siding. when that is done the siding enid and siding maricopa will disappear. which sucks cause now we'll get to pull all the way into the smells of cow town to wait for west trains
Fools Gold at West Colton Yard
In previous statements within this topic thread, it was suggested that the upgrading of the single main to two-track status at West Colton Yard, CA would extend eastward past Pepper Ave. and follow the By-Pass route on the NORTH side of the Balloon to slightly beyond Rancho Ave. Such would be an operating goldmine of flexibility and productivity. But, that is NOT in the cards, but close to it is! Fascinating things are currently developing at West Colton Yard, and below they are shown ...
From Pepper Ave. looking eastward: Radical temporary track modifications are taking place
The future Main 1 is being laid on a new alignment
The future Main 1 will be totally separate and not connected to the Balloon. The Balloon will loop around from the background and connect to Main 2 by Pepper Ave. instead of Main 1 thereat. The pictured signal will be removed. On the second photo just below, the overhead in the top right distance is the Palmdale Cutoff
The present By-Pass is viewed westwardly from the Rancho Ave. overpass, a mile east of Pepper Ave. The lit double-target signal on the left (facing the camera) was previously on the right. The newly laid panel track in the distance is NOT for a second main, but only for a slight relocation of the present By-Pass / future Main 1. Such is easily discerned by studying the location positions of the recently erected future signals. The right-of-way widening here was apparently only for the slight alignment adjustment and vehicular access purposes
For comparison ... THIS view of the above is photo dated LAST YEAR ... Note that the old switch was slightly farther back than the present new one.
Looking west, the switching lead under Rancho Ave. is being upgraded to full CTC status, and the present purple derail switch sign and manual signal will be removed. The bright yellowish sign on the left warms of unmanned remote control switching operations
Signal upgrading at the east end of CP RANCHO (Looking eastward)
Note: Public alleyways and residential dead-end roads allow for such close-up, trackside views as the last two photos above
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- K.P.’s absolute “theorem” from early, early childhood that he has seen over and over and over again: Those that CAUSE a problem in the first place will act the most violently if questioned or exposed.
Update on West Colton Yard
As of Thursday, April 30, 2009:
The odd track modification of a few days ago ...
... Has been modified further ...
This short section of "old" By-Pass but future Track 1 just last week looked like this ...
... Had the new rails, ties, and ballast installed ...
K.P., thanks for posting these pictures! I do hope you are feeling better.
Like you, I am confused about what is going on here at Colton. Please keep us updated; it is definitely interesting to see all this track movement.
mvs (5-3):
Thank you for your kind thoughts ... My biggest problem for the past six months were doctors' orders not to drive a vehicle ... But, now I've been cleared to drive again ... So, I have been checking out the sites with a vengeance!
More on West Colton Yard ...
East from West Colton Yard is the west leg of the wye, and west from the City of Colton is the east leg of the wye, both meeting at the Palmdale Cutoff, specifically at the south end of SLOVER siding. There at, new multi-light southbound replacement signals are being installed too
In the above photo, please note that on both new masts there are NO high green indications! This is became the next signal will always display RED over something (see far left new signal in the photo below).
Where both wyes meet, new northbound signals have been erected also
As far as trains entering West Colton Yard from off the Palmdale Cutoff (via the west leg of the wye), after a recent major derailment, reportedly special instructions were issued for trains NOT to use the crossovers, but to only head west on the main. Imagine previous to this the erratic weight forces on freight cars coming off of the higher elevation Palmdale Cutoff (photo background top left) trying to zigzag through a route to the south side of the Departure Yard. The below photo from September 1 of last year shows just how zigzag such a route was previously
With the new Main 1 to take the north side of the Balloon and Main 2 the south side, the tracks between Pepper Ave. and the Cutoff will undoubted be revamped to avoid that kind of problem.
K.P.
Update as of Sunday, May 10, 2009
West Colton Yard, CA
The new, future Main 1 has been laid and ballasted, but not connected
The old Balloon (which will remain) has had a new tri-light signal positioned. Also, look at all the ballast stacked up on the upper left background
When the new switch in the foreground is lined for its reverse route, notice how the route has a bend in it, AS IF the track will eventually go straight to the Balloon and Palmdale Cutoff in the background (by the top head of the new mast signal) and not have a zigzag route as it does presently. Interesting head placements in the background for future new signals governing coming off both the Balloon and Palmdale Cutoff
Fascinating things have been and are presently taking place on the NEW Sunset Route between Los Angeles and Pomona, the old Los Angeles and Salt Lake. Photos will be posted Tuesday, May 12, 2009
Update as of Tuesday, May 12, 2009:
Los Angeles to Pomona, CA
Most Sunset Route trains now traverse the original UP Los Angeles & Salt Lake Route between Los Angeles and Pomona. It is now two-tracks throughout
Looking west from the Bluff Road overpass in Montebello, only a few miles east of Los Angeles
The same area: The bridge on the left is the original structure, whereas the bridge on the right was erected circa 1992
Photo from Durfee Ave. in Pico Rivera, looking westward: The "old" Pico Rivera siding is on the right. More on this is in the next caption. The bridge midway between curves is over Rosecrans Blvd.
The single-track truss-bridge indicates the original LA&SL route. For years the track on the foreground right was the main, and lined up with the bridge. The track on the left was the Pico Rivera siding. The UP flipped thinking, and made the track on the left the mainline, and the track on the right the siding. When UP finally decided to span the San Gabriel River with a second main, a bridge south (right) of the original structure was erected. Hence, the weird track alignment.
The track in the foreground is the original Southern Pacific Sunset Route. The track in the distant background is the LA&SL Route. The curvy track between them is the present incomplete relocation of the SP's original line
At the Temple Ave. overcrossing in Pomona, looking westward onto the LA&SL: The laid track for the SP route relocation is on the right, but doesn't connect to the LA&SL main yet. More equipment is present than previously
Looking east from Temple Ave. overpass: The 57 Freeway Bridge is being modified for a fourth track
An adverse conditions photo from Highway 71 in Pomona: Looking west at the distant Humane Way overpass. Note the new four-track signal bridge by the roadway bridge
A steel beam supported, modular concrete retailing wall is being built adjacent Highway 71.
Looking eastward at the present [CP] ROSELAWN single-crossover at dawn. The control point apparently derived its name from Roselawn Street near Humane Way (behind the camera)
K.P., those are amazing pictures as always! Thank you for posting them.
It looks like there will be four tracks between Temple Avenue and State Route 71 along the LA&SL right-of-way. However, the southeasternmost two tracks will be the UP Los Angeles Sub, and the northwesternmost two tracks will be the UP Alhambra Sub. Correct?
Two parts:
For K.P. Harrier, glad to see from your most recent posts that you making up for the lost time during which you were unable to report in. Please believe me when I say we are all delighted with your return and your most informative updates. It seems clear from your most recent reports that UP is going out of its way to disentangle the trackage maze around the West Colton Yard so that trains can move with much greater freedom and without getting so much in each other's way.
A related note: discovered from UP's website that it has released its Analyst Fact Book for 2008. To cite Page 10 therein, UP tells us it is scaling back second main track construction for 2009, given the current gloomy economic outlook, and it tells us, "Only 11 miles [of second main] are scheduled for completion in 2009." This the most recent word on the subject.
I rode Metrolink out to Pomona today (5-15-09); here are some pics from out the window:
(1) This spur was active until recently; will it be returned to service after the four tracks are installed?
(2) Here's an extra track deck at the Lanterman Hospital road bridge
(3) No change to the new S-curve track
There were also several footings for new signal bridges in the area - that line will look completely different once the construction is complete
Thanks for posting those pictures! I do not know about that spur; I would imagine it might be reconnected though. However, it is somewhat below grade level.
Update as of Monday, May 18, 2009:
Pomona, CA: The Humane Way Area
By the Humane Way roadway overpass: The new, not-in-serve yet east side signal bridge
Looking east: The new graded alignment (left). The new far right track, laid last year, is still not in service
All lower signal units only have one light; presumably, when lit, for a yellow over yellow indication
Such a yellow over yellow likely mean that crossovers will be put in somewhere west of Humane Way, most likely west of Temple Ave., at where the rerouted Sunset Route will branch off on the background right to its original right-of-way. (This photo was previously shown herein last week.) The two visible, yet to be installed turnouts in the photo have been present for months
With four-tracks in the future, apparently, target practice is too tempting for would-be rock throwers, so the roadway bridge is in the early stages of being modified to thwart that
The west side signal bridge
Most of the lower units here too will be for a yellow over yellow indication, meaning some type of crossovers arrangement will likely be put in east of here, possibly by Hamilton Ave. Oddly, the LOWER unit for the southernmost track (left) is a full three indication unit. Whether its top bulb is green or lunar is unknown at this time.
From Hamilton Ave.: Looking west at the current arrangement on the north side (SP).
The south side (LA&SL): Note the grading to the right of the present single-track UP main. That new grading has been in place for several months.
This project is from the "Alameda Corridor - East Construction Authority" and is known as the "Temple Ave. Train Diversion" project, and is scheduled for completion in the fall of 2009.
Update: Fontana to [CP] LOMA LINDA, CA
Between Pomona and Fontana, there does not appear to be any two-tracking activity. This report will focus on activity between Fontana and Loma Linda
Looking west from Citrus Ave., in Fontana
An east view: The main is on the left, the West Colton Yard "100 Lead" (if it is still called that) is on the right. Sierra Ave. in the distance is where two-tracking has apparently currently stopped in its westward progression. In the past, this poster has pointed out the problem of the advertising signs being in the way of a second main. There appears to be room on the photo left of the signs to lay another track, by the ancient telegraph wire poles. Whether that will occur or the signs will be removed is unknown to this poster
This is the completed new track-work east of Sierra Ave. in Fontana. A long line of stored locomotives is stored on Track 201 in the background
A new yard signal was erected to protect yard switches. In the past, solid white was for NOT to proceed, and a flashing white was to proceed. Adjacent to it is a warning sign about watching out for remote control engines
The previous old signal was rather rinky-dink. This photo was taken last year when the old switching signal was still standing, and the old interlocking signals were still active
Looking west from Riverside Ave. in Rialto, the new switch and mainline signals for Main 2 have been completed, but the turnout has NO signal itself (pot or otherwise), and the track work away from it appears jerry-rigged and only temporary
A previous view from the east side of the Riverside Ave. overpass
There were no discernable updates to the Pepper and Rancho Avenues area
From the Waterman Ave. overpass, looking westward: Traditionally, helpers have been put on here (and waited on the lower right track, and one on the left behind the camera) in a time-consuming manner for the western assault of Beaumont Hill, and such delays infuriated motorists so much that the grade crossing (in the photo upper left quadrant) was put on the California Department of Transportation's (Caltrans's) underpass / overpass "Most Wanted" list. Ironically, Distributed Power Units (DPU's) have seemed to have replaced helpers, so blockages are now only a couple of minutes each, taking the wind out of angry overpass / underpass promoters. In the early 2000's, UP started upgraded the CTC and put high-speed crossovers in EASTWARD OF HERE, but conspicuously left this control point with no upgrading. The slow speed crossovers remain. Its future is thus uncertain. The CTC siding in the upper left is called the "Ice Deck" because many decades ago ice was made there to keep the joint SP-UP Pacific Fruit Express (PFE) reefers very cold for transporting food perishables
For Wednesday, May 20, 2009: A look at the Indio area in the Lower Desert of Southern California
Thank you very much for both of these tours of California railroading. This is the next best thing to being there for us poor , stuck in the east, railfans.
Wondering whether, next year, they plan to lay track over the roadbed they've graded. From the little one can glean from these threads, it seems as though they can lay track clear from Tucson to Maricopa.
But only if the economy perks up a tad...
A Look at the Indio Area in the Lower Desert, CA
From West to East
The new [CP] MYOMA double-crossovers west of Washington Street
Remember these NEW "holding" signals in Indio last year?
They've already been replaced by new multi-headed intermediates
The new [CP] COCHELLA double-crossovers
Intermediates at 58th Ave. between [CP] COACHELLA and the community of Thermal
The completed new bridge for the new Main 2 (foreground) by Thermal is of a different design than Main 1's old bridge (background)
Looking westward: The old track alignment immediately east of the new bridge is somewhat weird looking. The old main is on the right, whereas the new bridge for the new Main 2 is on the left.
The east end of the old THERMAL siding, now the temporary east end of two-tracks: Note the odd temporary, jerry-rigged signal on the photo right
A few miles further east is the MECCA siding, the west end of which has a rare cantilever signal structure. Two-tracking was to have been completed through here and all the way to NILAND, but only a fraction was completed
billioWondering if, next year, they plan to lay track over the roadbed they've graded. From the little one can glean from these threads, it seems as though they can lat track clear from Tucson to Maricopa. But only if the economy perks up a tad...
Wondering if, next year, they plan to lay track over the roadbed they've graded. From the little one can glean from these threads, it seems as though they can lat track clear from Tucson to Maricopa.
There are still several areas with gaps in the grading where bridges must be built or signals must be moved out of the way. The Ames construction crews just bypassed these areas for now.
During a trip between Tucson and Casa Grande last week, I saw a few UP signal maintainers and one Ames construction crew working at one of these areas near Marana, but it was hard to discern exactly what they were doing.
The staging areas where Ames was storing materials and construction vehicles seem to be mostly abandoned.
The UP is definitely concentrating their efforts in California for now.
K.P, in reviewing the pics in your last post, it appears that this past winter the track renewal train started downhill on the old track at Garnet/West Palm Springs (the point where second track construction resumed last year -- see the two sparkling mains in pic 1) then at some point skipped a few miles (it left untouched the original track -- see the comparatively seedy looking original track in pics 3,4,5, 6 and 7) and started renewing again along the single track stretch extending from Thermal eastward.
Why would they skip over sections of original track -- why would they leave undone the complete reconstruction of the two-track right of way? -- and attack the single-track line? The only answer that makes any sense to me is that the single track line east of Thermal needed TLC more than the first main west thereof, so the track renewal machine was redirected there. If anyone knows otherwise, I'd be most interested in hearing about it.
Incidently, I'm assuming that the track renweal train has been redeployed for the summer months to the Central Corridor.
billioIncidently, I'm assuming that the track renweal train has been redeployed for the summer months to the Central Corridor.
I've also noticed they skipped certain sections between Banning and Thermal, and left the old track there. Weird..
For the TRT, it's working in the PRB between Henry, NE, and 25 miles east of Lusk, WY. It's a $27 Million dollar project, replacing 29 miles of rail, 76,000 ties, spreading 98,000 tons of ballast, and replacing 4 switches.
They started early May, and should be done by the end of June. After that I don't know where it's going.
Thanks,
--Robert
The Pepper and Rancho Avenues Area
As of Saturday, May 23, 2009:
Many full and empty ballast cars are present
New switches are rather quickly being assembled
Tie cars have been location staged
The present By-Pass, the future Main 1, was re-ballasted and is being reworked again. Note the somewhat odd right switch point
From the West Leg of the Wye, Main 2 seems to follow an alignment of the present Main 1, and then will alignment shift back to the Main 2 position as seen in this view looking west from Rancho Ave.
Much old ties and equipment are present
Looking east from Rancho Ave.: The new, uninstalled track toward the lower left may be in preparation for Main 1's new By-Pass rerouting
As seen by the above photos, things seem to be developing quickly now at the east end of West Colton Yard
Regarding the Sunset Route, it seems like the two main work points are the area east of Colton Yard, and the area between Pomona and Spadra for the Temple Avenue train diversion.
Did you know that trackwork is occurring in the City of Industry as well? There is a grade separation at Sunset Avenue, where the UP Alhambra Sub tracks will be raised above certain streets.
billioK.P, in reviewing the pics in your last post, it appears that this past winter the track renewal train started downhill on the old track at Garnet/West Palm Springs (the point where second track construction resumed last year -- see the two sparkling mains in pic 1) then at some point skipped a few miles (it left untouched the original track -- see the comparatively seedy looking original track in pics 3,4,5, 6 and 7) and started renewing again along the single track stretch extending from Thermal eastward. Why would they skip over sections of original track -- why would they leave undone the complete reconstruction of the two-track right of way? -- and attack the single-track line? The only answer that makes any sense to me is that the single track line east of Thermal needed TLC more than the first main west thereof, so the track renewal machine was redirected there. If anyone knows otherwise, I'd be most interested in hearing about it. Incidently, I'm assuming that the track renweal train has been redeployed for the summer months to the Central Corridor.
There's no economic reason to tear up perfectly good track structure. There's nothing wrong with 136 CWR on wood ties. I would expect to see this track structure in place and sustaning 40-60 MGT per year long after I have retired from railroading and died. What looks seedy to you looks like real good track to me.
RWM
I had no idea there were so many new bridge-style signals. Back here in the Midwest/East, I am more struck at how the old bridge signals are being torn down (or allowed to stand, but inactive) in favor of simpler lights, often the three-position type.
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