[quote user="K. P. Harrier"]
The Mt. Vernon Connector Route over …
… the BNSF and Who Owns What
Colton, CA
Part III (of I-III)
Matter of fact, just a month later (September 21, 2013) from the above dated photos, the spot had been spruced up.
K.P. was interested in a visual of who actually owns what, and went to the Tax Assessor’s office for official property ownership information. Come to find out what employees have said for decades isn’t exactly true, as seen in the below photo taken Thursday, April 2, 2015, with turquoise lines being ‘Atchison Topeka & Santa Fe’ owned land (with tracks on it)..
Tax Assessor staff said leased property is typically shown on their maps. But, as above, there is NO indication that UP leases part of the BNSF right-of-way.
So, the implication is that when BNSF decides to triple-track the “N” Street area, UP will have to give up exclusive use of what is now the Mt. Vernon Connector on the north-south BNSF Transcon section. Interestingly, K.P. and Assessor’s Office staff found NO map document that shows UP even owns the strip of land used for crew relief as shown in the third photo from the top in Part II. That doesn’t preclude a private agreement with the actual owner(s) of the crew relief strip of land there, but there is NO public evidence that K.P. knows of that UP owns it, but to the contrary, someone else does, or at least did.
For years K.P. had understood that the “N” Street bridge track ownership was split between UP and BNSF. THAT would imply BNSF would have to add to the bridge’s width to lay a third-track on the bridge. But, Assessor’s official maps suggest that won’t be necessary.
A little tidbit at the Assessor’s office was checked out too. The land at Colton Crossing itself is owned by UP (ex-SP), and reflects the situation as exactly the same as it was in 1883, when California Southern (predecessor to both Santa Fe and BNSF) crossed there in the famous armed ‘Battle of Colton Crossing’ that was very forcefully ended when a more legally authoritative figure (with a court order) showed up (with an armed group of deputized men with him) and forced his will on the SP, and the SP side absolutely knew it was totally inadvisable to battle with the kind of authority he had!
These situations where RR's "share' a site are prolific and are almost always governed by a contract agreement between those RR's involved. RR's call these "joint facility agreements" and there are thousands of them because of the necessary interaction of RR's.
I believe that California RR's property taxes, and all others deemed 'public utilities' by the State, are administered by a 'Commission' designated to sort out the inconsistencies KP is talking about. That being the case, then the County Assessor will have no involvement in determining for whom and how much the taxes may be at these sites.
K.P., I thought of you a lot when we were arriving in LA on the Chief yesterday. All of these places along the route made so familiar by your pictures! I told Pat that whenever we leave here we'll have to take the Sunset/Eagle routing home.
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- K.P.’s absolute “theorem” from early, early childhood that he has seen over and over and over again: Those that CAUSE a problem in the first place will act the most violently if questioned or exposed.
Part II (of I-III)
For decades railroaders (“railroaders”) have said UP owned two of the four tracks. And, the fact that one of those tracks are milepost designated with a UP (ex-SP) number suggests UP owns part of that basically north-south strip. Photos from August 21, 2013):
Continued in Part III
Part I (of I-III)
For decades just south of Colton Crossing, on the BNSF (ex-Santa Fe), was the “East Pass.” In the last decade the East Pass was altered so it became the Mt. Vernon Connector, where some UP trains would transition from the UP Sunset Route to BNSF’s Transcon at CP WEST COLTON and vice versa. At “N” Street in South Colton (a traditionally known area by locals within the City of Colton) is an underpass that is four tracks wide. From the west side looking east:
From the east side looking west (both August 21, 2010)
Today, there are only three tracks on the overpass (way in the distance), as seen in the below July 14, 2010 southward photo from the I-10 Freeway, a view blocked today by the Colton Flyover.
Continued in Part II
Strike-Mechanisms A-Go-Go
Colton Signal Dept.
Update as of Tuesday, March 31, 2015
The dispatch deep into Riverside County occurred in the late (“late”) morning of the above date, and by the time the tracks that are related to the Sunset Route was gotten to the sun was going down, and photography was NOT opportune. Newly arrived at the Colton Signal Dept., though, just east of those ten switch parts-like wooden crates, were SEVEN new, very shiny black dragging equipment strike-mechanisms. What they are officially called is unknown. They were good light photographed a few days later, as below.
Update as of Thursday, April 2, 2015
On the just above heading’s date, K.P. was dispatched to San Bernardino, with much free time before and afterwards, and the Colton Signal Dept. was revisited. Those strike-mechanisms were photographed in good light.
Those TEN crates (six previous ones and four new to the site) were photographed with a wide angle lens so the forum could better visualize their location within the barbed wire fenced facility.
It had been previously speculated that all those SIX switch parts boxes previously on site might be used in Pomona, at the future big CP AL514 HAMILTON, as six turnouts remain to be installed thereat. But, with the additional boxes, maybe (“maybe) they will be used from CP AL521 NORTH ONTARIO to CP AL533 SIERRA, and two-tracking of that section might (“might”) be imminent. The two-tracking the latter area would explain why there is a stack of laying down mast signals in the northeast part of the fenced Colton Signal Dept. yard that up until now seemingly didn’t have a place that they could be used at. In the absence of official word, the above is just speculation. But the fact that there are so many dragging equipment strike-mechanisms on site puts even more mystery to an already mysterious situation, and may be an indicator something is about to happen somewhere.
The Colton Flyover Bridging over the BNSF Connector
In flexing the new camera, K.P. was desirous of a wide-angle view of the Colton Flyover bridging over the BNSF Connector.
As seen above, it is quite an impressive structure. And the bridging (of an orange rust color) is all welded I-beams WITHOUT rivets, a UP tradition, whereas SP used to use a riveted plate assembly on its bridges.
This will conclude the single post.
----------
A few replies are on the back burner. ALSO, what has repeatedly (“repeatedly”) been heard for decades K.P. was desirous of visually proving to the forum. But, to his surprise, what has repeatedly been said by railroader employees for decades is not exactly true. A post or two on the BNSF right-of-way just south of Colton Crossing is hoped to be worked up and posted in a few days. Past photos contradict legal documents, but that contradictory situation may simply be to expedite and simplify operations. In a few days you can form your own opinion about the situation.
UChicagoMatt:
Visited your flickr site. Pretty neat to see photos not only of here in AZ but of several places that were my old "stomping grounds" when I lived in the Midwest.
John Timm
MikeF90 desertdog K.P., As you know from our email exchanges, I've had trouble posting photos from my iPhoto account ever since the "new and improved" TRAINS site came on line. For now, I'm giving up, unless someone out there has a fix for uploading from a Mac. John Timm Not being up on current Macs, I have two suggestions: - post your dilemma and an example link on the Testing forum: http://cs.trains.com/trc/f/2.aspx The issue may be related somehow to where your photos are hosted. Photobucket has been OK for me, but every time I log in the hipster devs have changed something Just To Change It - bad for my b.p. - Everyone should send a polite note to Kalmbach customer support pointing out that they really, really need to change the Testing forum to the new, troublesome format that Trains Mag uses. How else can bugs be found and corrected properly? Good luck!
desertdog K.P., As you know from our email exchanges, I've had trouble posting photos from my iPhoto account ever since the "new and improved" TRAINS site came on line. For now, I'm giving up, unless someone out there has a fix for uploading from a Mac. John Timm
As you know from our email exchanges, I've had trouble posting photos from my iPhoto account ever since the "new and improved" TRAINS site came on line. For now, I'm giving up, unless someone out there has a fix for uploading from a Mac.
Not being up on current Macs, I have two suggestions:
- post your dilemma and an example link on the Testing forum: http://cs.trains.com/trc/f/2.aspx The issue may be related somehow to where your photos are hosted. Photobucket has been OK for me, but every time I log in the hipster devs have changed something Just To Change It - bad for my b.p.
- Everyone should send a polite note to Kalmbach customer support pointing out that they really, really need to change the Testing forum to the new, troublesome format that Trains Mag uses. How else can bugs be found and corrected properly?
Good luck!
Hi MikeF90 and K.P.,
I'm going to contact Kalmbach this weekend when I have a free moment. I'll keep you posted and will share any useful information for other Mac users.
Shawmut is now fully "labeled" a siding by UPRR as such-even on the rails as you can see. Its location just east of the summit of the Maricopa Mountains makes for an ideal location for photography. I was there on 4/1/2015 while two UP crews worked on a rail kink just east of Shawmut. The dispatcher held five WB trains east of the work zone. Then they came rapid-fire westbound up and over the summit for the glide down into Gila Bend. The entire road along here is next to the track(s). Really and easy drive south of Phoenix.
Link to photos: https://www.flickr.com/photos/17752038@N06/
K. P. HarrierIt only has the Federal grade crossing number, and not the street, mileposts, etc., as that box in Arizona had (See Part A). It is unknown if such signs are a test, or if they will be (or are being) installed system wide, etc. ... History-wise, the milepost numbers were blacked out several years ago, then they were putback on (which was great for railfans), and now the white, informative signs might be done away with altogether if the little blue signs are the thing of the future. This is another area where we will just have to wait and see what plays out.
...
History-wise, the milepost numbers were blacked out several years ago, then they were putback on (which was great for railfans), and now the white, informative signs might be done away with altogether if the little blue signs are the thing of the future. This is another area where we will just have to wait and see what plays out.
As you probably figured out by now, these are going in all over the system, and are not a test. It's in response to a FRA action that requires compliance by July 2015.
When you call UP's number, you're getting a call center operation somewhere, and I'd say chances are high that they don't know every mile of the railroad... When trying to figure out which line a particular grade crossing is located on, seconds matter. Using the national grade crossing inventory number eliminates most of the confusion.
Mileposts were good if you know the subdivision name, but that's a very small number of people. Likewise for knowing just which Main Street/Main Ave is located.
http://www.regulations.gov/#!documentDetail;D=FRA-2009-0041-0036
desertdogK.P., As you know from our email exchanges, I've had trouble posting photos from my iPhoto account ever since the "new and improved" TRAINS site came on line. For now, I'm giving up, unless someone out there has a fix for uploading from a Mac. John Timm
Links to my Google Maps ---> Sunset Route overview, SoCal metro, Yuma sub, Gila sub, SR east of Tucson, BNSF Northern Transcon and Southern Transcon *** Why you should support Ukraine! ***
desertdog (3-31):
That is a sad dilemma you’ve been thrown into, not only for you, but for us others too because we all would love to visually see what you were able to photograph onsite in Casa Grande, AZ and your assessment of what you saw thereat and how it messes with the Sunset Route two-tracking. I would be curious to hear what the TRAINS staffers themselves have to say about your not being able to post photos at their website with a Mac, because they have a broader perspective and overview that we do, and one would think the Kalmbach people would want to keep their bread and butter customers (subscribers) happy …
Rooting for you,
K.P.
John:
This may seem like an over simplification, but, are you posting directly from iPhoto? It "might" be that you need to drag pics to your desktop and then post them from there. I remember someone in a digital arts class with a similar issue. As for the Trains website, be glad it's not a railroad!
--John
K.P.,
Nice shot KP. Looking west along the T&P alignment, noting the swing-nose frog which leaves no gap in the running rail going either direction.
Slover update: the D-10 was ripping and pushing the south part of the hill, Reche Canyon at it's junction with Barton road is almost completely visible now (and quite possibly soon the BNSF SA River bridge from Pepper avenue.
A10
Posting Posts among the Pitchforks
In behalf of the forum, I am almost ready to visit a physiatrist.
At times posting quotes works as they are supposed to, but other times the quoting process does crazy things.
When one posts FROM a previously posted post, the “Add Quote to your Post” option is available, and pressing that button quotes what was previously posted, as with the imaginatary post insertion below.
Red Tailed Guy with a Pitchfork Welcome to the Pitchfork Posting Farm!
Welcome to the Pitchfork Posting Farm!
It is quite simple to quote, even to edit that quote so that non-pertinent material is not visible. But K.P. has seen the quoting process do strange things for seemingly no reason. And, he is not sure if forum users are composing their text WITHIN someone else’s bracketed quote computer instructions, or something strange is causing the weirdness, but composing should NOT be done within a quote that is BETWEEN top and bottom ‘Quote’ instructions for the Kalmbach computer. To do so makes for totally illogical, confusing posts that enhance physiatrist’s income, if you know what I mean.
If your post-composition persists in doing strange things (and that has happened to K.P. a number of times), it might be good to relate the problem to the website staff for some type of fix … or, maybe ‘correction’ would be a better word choice.
In other matters … K.P. is still learning his very, very complex new camera, but it is very clear already that it will be more productive than his previous ‘Pitchfork’ brand camera. The dispatch to ‘deep into Riverside County’ is still pending, but it will definitely be sometime this week. Hot on K.P.’s list is the Colton Signal Dept. on the Sunset Route, and BNSF tracks in the Grand Terrace-Highgrove area on the alternate Sunset Route. Also on the BNSF, K.P. is desirous of showing the forum the BNSF in a very different light than most have ever seen it, and that light will allow the forum to comprehend a whole new dimension to the BNSF tracks (and possible future tracks) through Colton.
SP657E44 (3-27):
As a visual to enhance your above reply, here is that high speed switch you spoke of at Sierra Blanca, TX, at M.P. 737.0 on the Valentine Subdivision, looking westbound.
Unlike most of the 50 M.P.H. TWO-motor switches in the two-tracking of the Sunset Route between Los Angeles and El Paso, the turnout route at Sierra Blanca east of El Paso is 60 M.P.H. and has THREE-motors. I thought the above visual would make your reply even more meaningful.
Best,
Agreed, also add the "other" canal project that started over a month ago funded by Chinese interests. As the former SP double tracking rolls along, UP is quite content to let the state and county government make and pay for improvements to their line locally. Of note from years back is UP poured a lot of money into the T&P across Texas, even to the point of straight-railing the switch at Sierra Blanca for the T&P side which I personally find awesome (reasons not listed). Watching all this take place with numerous projects that are sometimes shown here in pictures is part of the fun.
BarstowRick BarstowRick I agree with your summation 100%. Everyone has an opinion and is entitiled to it. If someone disagrees with someone elses opinion ,then bring it up in a thoughtful manner. I too have thoroughly enjoyed KP's Forums and look forward to their continuation(as soon as he gets the Camera figured out). And BTW Would it be too much to ask for these guys to put spell checker back??? SP657E44 Some months back, Barstow Rick reported seeing what looked to be a second bridge being built over the 91 freeway. Responses to same were inconclusive so I planned a day to go see and did find the he was indeed correct. I also tried something very simple - asking SEMA's foreman what they were doing. I reported here what he said verbatim. Since then kp and another have determined that the foreman and I are liars because they're superior knowledge in construction engineering trumps mine and the man doing the actual work. Ownership - for the record: From the bottom end of B yard south BNSF owns the former Santa Fe main lines through Colton, West Colton, Grand Terrace/Highgrove, Riverside and beyond. RTA, part of SCRRA/Metrolink owns the former SF/BNSF San Jac branch, now their Perris Valley line. They also won a lead off of UP's LA sub south of Riverside. UP owns a connecting track west at Colton, Two low speed diamonds across the BNSF, and a connecting track east at West Colton to their Sunset Route. Out of old Colton UP's Riverside branch leads into Grand Terrace, is severed at the 215 freeway with the section eat of the 215 disconnected and both ends. They have a lead off RTA's PV line into Riverside to serve remaining customers, at last sight the line was red-flagged east of Chicago avenue. UP's LA sub begins south of Riverside and heads west. A10 Thanks to both SP and KP for their progress reports. The thing is we see things, report them here and then we look at the obvious, tell tales and give full consideration to the reports we hear from trackside employees. Nothing wrong with that. Including nothing wrong with having differing opinions and stating them as such here on this Train Board. I for one have enjoyed the input here by both participants KP, SP and others. I can only hope you've enjoyed mine. So, hang in there folks. We are going to get this railroad built and double tracked along with trains running to Perris, Ca. dispite ourselves.... before to long. And then we can all go into Sunset Witdrawal. Sigh! Have fun!
BarstowRick I agree with your summation 100%. Everyone has an opinion and is entitiled to it. If someone disagrees with someone elses opinion ,then bring it up in a thoughtful manner. I too have thoroughly enjoyed KP's Forums and look forward to their continuation(as soon as he gets the Camera figured out).
And BTW Would it be too much to ask for these guys to put spell checker back???
SP657E44 Some months back, Barstow Rick reported seeing what looked to be a second bridge being built over the 91 freeway. Responses to same were inconclusive so I planned a day to go see and did find the he was indeed correct. I also tried something very simple - asking SEMA's foreman what they were doing. I reported here what he said verbatim. Since then kp and another have determined that the foreman and I are liars because they're superior knowledge in construction engineering trumps mine and the man doing the actual work. Ownership - for the record: From the bottom end of B yard south BNSF owns the former Santa Fe main lines through Colton, West Colton, Grand Terrace/Highgrove, Riverside and beyond. RTA, part of SCRRA/Metrolink owns the former SF/BNSF San Jac branch, now their Perris Valley line. They also won a lead off of UP's LA sub south of Riverside. UP owns a connecting track west at Colton, Two low speed diamonds across the BNSF, and a connecting track east at West Colton to their Sunset Route. Out of old Colton UP's Riverside branch leads into Grand Terrace, is severed at the 215 freeway with the section eat of the 215 disconnected and both ends. They have a lead off RTA's PV line into Riverside to serve remaining customers, at last sight the line was red-flagged east of Chicago avenue. UP's LA sub begins south of Riverside and heads west. A10
Some months back, Barstow Rick reported seeing what looked to be a second bridge being built over the 91 freeway. Responses to same were inconclusive so I planned a day to go see and did find the he was indeed correct. I also tried something very simple - asking SEMA's foreman what they were doing. I reported here what he said verbatim. Since then kp and another have determined that the foreman and I are liars because they're superior knowledge in construction engineering trumps mine and the man doing the actual work. Ownership - for the record: From the bottom end of B yard south BNSF owns the former Santa Fe main lines through Colton, West Colton, Grand Terrace/Highgrove, Riverside and beyond. RTA, part of SCRRA/Metrolink owns the former SF/BNSF San Jac branch, now their Perris Valley line. They also won a lead off of UP's LA sub south of Riverside. UP owns a connecting track west at Colton, Two low speed diamonds across the BNSF, and a connecting track east at West Colton to their Sunset Route. Out of old Colton UP's Riverside branch leads into Grand Terrace, is severed at the 215 freeway with the section eat of the 215 disconnected and both ends. They have a lead off RTA's PV line into Riverside to serve remaining customers, at last sight the line was red-flagged east of Chicago avenue. UP's LA sub begins south of Riverside and heads west.
Thanks to both SP and KP for their progress reports. The thing is we see things, report them here and then we look at the obvious, tell tales and give full consideration to the reports we hear from trackside employees. Nothing wrong with that. Including nothing wrong with having differing opinions and stating them as such here on this Train Board.
I for one have enjoyed the input here by both participants KP, SP and others. I can only hope you've enjoyed mine. So, hang in there folks. We are going to get this railroad built and double tracked along with trains running to Perris, Ca. dispite ourselves.... before to long. And then we can all go into Sunset Witdrawal. Sigh!
Have fun!
Edited add on: In response to Super Hunks, post below this one I went back to see if some of the features aren't working. He's right! "Dispite" should be changed to despite. The edit feature isn't working.
Is it me or have we lost some other features here, as well as making it difficult for those with pictures, to submit them? The options at the head of this post as I prepare it seem to be complete. We should be ok. However the link to a blog I started, doesn't appear to be working. Unless it needs to be approved by a moderator. We shall see.
Thanks Super Hunk for the heads up.
RickH
BarstowRick.com Model Railroading How To's
A New WAY of Photo-Capturing the …
… Sunset Route’s Two-Tracking!
It happened quite suddenly! In visiting the tax man, the worst had been expected. But, the tax man knew his stuff, and turned an anticipated big tax liability into a wondrous refund! The Mrs. immediately suggested that the camera K.P. had been eyeing for a while be purchased right within the hour! Cool. So, that is what we did. And, a budget funding for one or two (or more) interstate trips to check out the Sunset Route’s two-tracking soon got set too! All almost lightning fast!
K.P. had been (“had been“) seeing a timeslot taking place to visit the Yuma, AZ area on Wednesday and Thursday, March 25 and 26, 2015 to check out the Sunset Route two-tracking in the far southeastern reaches of Southern California and also southwestern Arizona, but all that has been postponed indefinitely in order to learn the ins and outs of the new, sort of professional grade camera … Today’s quality digitals are a whole different breed from decades ago when K.P. used and was very familiar with film based Nikons and even the Hasselblad brand.
For those interested in cameras, the camera K.P. bought was a mere basic “D” series Nikon digital with two Nikkor zoom lenses, a wide angle and a telephoto, both lenses sharing a common ‘normal’ view. K.P. did not think anything super exotic nor overly expensive was needed to just enlighten others with photos about the Sunset Route and laying a second main thereon. But, sharp Nikkor lenses, though, was thought to be a necessity!
Thus, if K.P. is much quieter than normal post-wise for a while, now you’ll know why … It simply takes time to master the many, many intricacies of a new precision machine.
Grains of Salt
From time to time there is controversy here at the forum. Some have good points, while others have not so good of ones. Everyone can decide for themselves if posts and ideas are good or bad. That is the hallmark of forums. I personally try to take everything with a grain of salt. But, it is amazing how so many have sensibly zeroed in on the issues and clarified matters, and showed themselves to be focused and encouraged others to be focused too and not sidetracked, and for that they are to be commended.
SP657E44 4. I always check aerials for such items as crossovers. Don't BS me with "ownership" myths. A10
4. I always check aerials for such items as crossovers. Don't BS me with "ownership" myths.
In Internet slang, a troll (/ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people,[1] by posting inflammatory,[2] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[3] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.[4]
K. P.: Thank you for all your time and effort in posting info so the rest of us can follow the project.
SP657E44: If you are such an expert, why don't you spend YOUR time and effort to post additional info on the project, instead of sniping at K.P.? That way all of us could benefit from your exalted level of perfection.
K.P.:
I would like to join the recent cheeful posts from all over thanking you for the time, effort, and insight that you share with us.
I have been ADDICTED to your posts on the Sunset Route since I went looking for info on the Colton Crossing project and found you there. I am always amazed at the huge photo archive, the depth of info, and the interesting group discussions.
I'll add that I also regularly enjoy FIVE of your other threads, and just recently found a SIXTH (LA Metro EXPO line)!! I will now read though all the enteries on that, just as with the others. There is a technical side to these threads that are really engrosing.
Again, thanks for all the info-- it has even contributed to my modest SoCal N-scale layout, keeping it accurate and more interesting (such as adding a "Signal Dept." area-- Thanks, KP! ).
John
Wash, DC
Having my share of issues posting today. I'm beginning to understand why others are so vocal about it.
To All about Taxes
Have you filed your 2014 income tax returns yet? The forum may find most post-interesting (“post-interesting”) what happened when K.P. and his wife filed theirs. Watch for a coming soon nice (“nice”) tidbit!
SP657E44 (3-24):
Response items:
(1) Most, if not all, here at the forum would agree that this is a railroad forum whose members generally know the railroad lingo and terminology. It makes for peace to stay within the boundaries of that lingo.
(2) No comment.
(3) Yes, I indeed WAS by the Riverside Ave. underpass construction area in Riverside, but there was too much construction equipment and dirt in the way to make a definitive call about the bridge’s width, if it was for one- or two-tracks. And, by the site and on public property, I had to smartly deal with a white hatted UP character that told me that it was illegal to take pictures of trains and tracks.
(4) You may want to check some aerials for the Riverside-Highgrove-Colton area. It might be helpful to consider who owns what track where, especially in the Colton area. Also, I’ve seen every track layout alteration in that Colton-Highgrove-Riverside stretch for over 50 years, and I know exactly WHY every alteration was made. But, maybe we should all just wait a few months and see what signal and track layout arrangement develops.
Stay cheery,
KP...I live in Spain but read and look forward to all your Sunset and other posts. Besides the nice pics and info, what I enjoy about the blog is the collegial, friendly atmosphere. Don't let one condescending reader get you down. Besides, you weren't fantasizing, you were speculating, which is just fine by me.
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