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Sunset Route Two-Tracking Updates

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Posted by desertdog on Friday, June 10, 2011 12:57 PM

Paul_D_North_Jr

And/ or to prevent damage while crossing asphalt paved and concrete roadways, and pre-cast concrete grade crossing slabs, with the crawler-tracked constructon equipment.

- Paul North.

 

Paul,

They are especially abundant around grade crossings.  Gentlemen, I think we have our answers.

John Timm 

 

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Posted by MikeF90 on Friday, June 10, 2011 3:13 PM

Excellent report, John!  I'm always impressed by your photographers ability to capture a deep blue sky in addition to the subject matter.

You didn't mention it, but it appears that UP might have flipped that temporary RH turnout at Ethington Rd around to lay the new track east to Casa Grande siding.

Looking forward to your next installment .... it's getting toasty out there, stay cool ....

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Posted by desertdog on Saturday, June 11, 2011 12:57 PM

MikeF90

Excellent report, John!  I'm always impressed by your photographers ability to capture a deep blue sky in addition to the subject matter.

You didn't mention it, but it appears that UP might have flipped that temporary RH turnout at Ethington Rd around to lay the new track east to Casa Grande siding.

Looking forward to your next installment .... it's getting toasty out there, stay cool ....

Mike F90,

 

Thanks much for the kind compliments.  I will pass them along to Susan.  She is a professional artist and knows how to work with color.  When she edits my railroad photos, she works hard to enhance the important details, but at the same time tries to retain the beautiful blues of our Sonoran Desert skies.

Since nothing had changed to the west at Ethington Rd. since our last visit, my thought at the time was "why bother to take a photo?"  In retrospect, we should have. To bring things up to date, the temporary RH turnout remains.  Just a guess, but I would expect that things will remain that way until Bon Siding is refurbished and the new CP is established east of Thornton Rd.

Arizona has remained surprisingly cool this spring, (lots of 90 degree days) so I hope to get back to C.G. before it gets really hot, i.e., 110+.  

John Timm

 

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Posted by MikeF90 on Saturday, June 11, 2011 4:35 PM

'Cool' 90 degree days, heh heh ....

A new post with pictures elsewhere seems to confirm some speculation:

- The new CP at Anderson Rd is SP906 Bon.

- One of the new turnouts at Thornton Rd has two motors for moveable point frogs, more evidence of a new CP.

- Signals, turnouts and a labeled equipment cabinet just west of Toltec siding reveal the location of a new CP SP927 Toltec.

Also, a link to an article in today's InMaricopa.com really pegs the incredibility meter - 100 trains a day by year end?  John, sorry that you have to live near so many hypocrites as evidenced by the comments so far. Make the railroad pay? Make the feds pay? Uh, why did your local elected officials allow rampant development without mitigation? Duh! Time to ratchet up the local sales and income taxes that everyone pays.

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Posted by K. P. Harrier on Saturday, June 11, 2011 8:29 PM

More on the AZ Cutover

Sources have indicated the Maricopa to Bon, AZ cutover took place on Tuesday, May 24, 2011 at 11:00 A.M.

MikeF90 correctly noted the universal crossover just west of Anderson Rd. was named CP SP 906 BON (M.P. 906.2).

2.3 miles west of CP BON is CP ARIZONA GRAIN.  The following reshown photo of that location was shot and posted a few months ago.


CP ARIZONA GRAIN is that location where Main 2 has absolute signals, Main 1 utilizes intermediates.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- K.P.’s absolute “theorem” from early, early childhood that he has seen over and over and over again: Those that CAUSE a problem in the first place will act the most violently if questioned or exposed.

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Posted by K. P. Harrier on Sunday, June 12, 2011 9:13 AM

A Hodgepodge Report

Territory:  Between Pomona and Fontana, CA

Part I (of I-V)

CP AL525 GUASTI

Between Wednesday, June 8 and Friday, June 10, 2011, K.P. was run ragged with dispatches and necessary business, but several things trackside were investigated as time permitted.

Forum readers will remember this very recent photo looking west from Milliken Ave., in Ontario during the new signals cutover.


Photographing the CP has been difficult.  However, the north side Guasti Rd. is eventually to be a through street.  A MapQuest link shows the area, and the view can be moved left and right with the mouse.

http://mapq.st/kXefcE

Thus, from a hotel parking lot CP AL525 GUASTI's signals are rather easily photographed.

The CP's east mast signal:


The CP's west signals:  The mast on the left is the mainline signal.


Continued in Part II

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- K.P.’s absolute “theorem” from early, early childhood that he has seen over and over and over again: Those that CAUSE a problem in the first place will act the most violently if questioned or exposed.

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Posted by K. P. Harrier on Sunday, June 12, 2011 9:41 AM

A Hodgepodge Report

Territory:  Between Pomona and Fontana, CA

Part II (of I-V)

CP AL531 SOUTH FONTANA

Looking east toward the South Fontana's east end:


The west new now activated color light signals (as above) have a rare track arrangement associated with them.

 


  •              CP AL531
  •           SOUTH FONTANA


  •  Siding
  • ________ _________
  •                   \
  •                    \
  • ________ _________________ _______
  •              
  •                \              
  •                 \_________ _______

  •                             [100]

 

The lower west eastbound heads are of the THREE bulb type.  Likely they have no green bulbs, but rather a lunar type.

Continued in Part III

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- K.P.’s absolute “theorem” from early, early childhood that he has seen over and over and over again: Those that CAUSE a problem in the first place will act the most violently if questioned or exposed.

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Posted by K. P. Harrier on Sunday, June 12, 2011 9:51 AM

A Hodgepodge Report

Territory:  Between Pomona and Fontana, CA

Part III (of I-V)

CP C038 ONTARIO Area

As discussed previously, the Ontario Branch leaves the SP, and southwardly crosses the LA&SL at CP C038 ONTARIO.  The branch's south side weird signals was recently posted about.  The below view is the counterpart north two-bulb signal (just right of center).


The base for the future new signal is visible just to the right of the present signal (above).

While in Ontario, the lit up Ontario Signal Dept. Yard was checked out.  None of the Guasti-South Fontana taken-down signals were present at the facility.


Public parking is right by the LA&SL track (foreground lower center-right), with short wooden posts as fencing right by the track.

Continued in Part IV

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- K.P.’s absolute “theorem” from early, early childhood that he has seen over and over and over again: Those that CAUSE a problem in the first place will act the most violently if questioned or exposed.

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Posted by K. P. Harrier on Sunday, June 12, 2011 10:14 AM

A Hodgepodge Report

Territory:  Between Pomona and Fontana, CA

Part IV (of I-V)

The Pomona Area

Previously, the new west CP AL514 HAMILTON box had been brought to the future CP site by Myrtle Ave.  The box was left there leaning over slightly.  (Note the CP was positioned back from the right signal.)


An elevated flat graded area was made, and the box repositioned.


Note, sadly, graffiti kooks have already assaulted the new box ...


... whereas previously the leaning box was without graffiti.


Continued in Part V

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- K.P.’s absolute “theorem” from early, early childhood that he has seen over and over and over again: Those that CAUSE a problem in the first place will act the most violently if questioned or exposed.

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Posted by K. P. Harrier on Sunday, June 12, 2011 10:37 AM

A Hodgepodge Report

Territory:  Between Pomona and Fontana, CA

Part V (of I-V)

The Pomona Area

On May 31, 2008 the follow west Diversion photograph was taken.


But, by June 3, 2009, signal bridges had been erected there.


It has been over two years since those signal bridges were erected, and the heads on them are still turned aside, as those of the same project are in downtown Pomona.


Allot of old signals and CP's are present in the vicinity, and are destined to all be combined into one big CP, the future big CP AL514 HAMILTON.


The above two photos were taken from Park Ave. in downtown Pomona, looking westbound.  From the same grade crossing, trains from the east were also in good supply at photo time.  The overhead walkway is in the distance.


Since the two new CP AL514 HAMILTON boxes are on site in Pomona and leveled, hopefully within six months the tracks will be rearranged and the big signal bridges finally put in service.

--------

Now that the lemon-like nightmare Toyota has been sold, huge financial loses eaten, and a replacement vehicle purchased, K.P.'s life can get back to normal (if there is a normal).  A backlog of replies can finally be gotten to, so expect some in a few days.  Also, to desertdog it is said, your excellent Arizona report has given much enlightenment, but has raised a number of questions.  Those matters will be included in the upcoming replies.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- K.P.’s absolute “theorem” from early, early childhood that he has seen over and over and over again: Those that CAUSE a problem in the first place will act the most violently if questioned or exposed.

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Posted by desertdog on Sunday, June 12, 2011 2:02 PM

MikeF90

'Cool' 90 degree days, heh heh ....

A new post with pictures elsewhere seems to confirm some speculation:

- The new CP at Anderson Rd is SP906 Bon.

- One of the new turnouts at Thornton Rd has two motors for moveable point frogs, more evidence of a new CP.

- Signals, turnouts and a labeled equipment cabinet just west of Toltec siding reveal the location of a new CP SP927 Toltec.

Also, a link to an article in today's InMaricopa.com really pegs the incredibility meter - 100 trains a day by year end?  John, sorry that you have to live near so many hypocrites as evidenced by the comments so far. Make the railroad pay? Make the feds pay? Uh, why did your local elected officials allow rampant development without mitigation? Duh! Time to ratchet up the local sales and income taxes that everyone pays.

 

Mike F90,

 

I should have caught the "SP906 BON" designation when I was at Anderson Rd., standing within a few feet of the equipment boxes.  Ditto for Toltec,

As to the number of daily trains through Maricopa, I venture to say that during the height of the economic boom, it would have averaged two per hour.  They often run them in fleets, but if you spent a day there, you could generally count on 40-50 over a 24-hour period.

If you go to the Trains map archive, this map indicates 40 trains per day (including Amtrak) as of 2003, which was before the peak of economic activity.: 

http://trn.trains.com/Railroad%20Reference/Railroad%20Maps/2010/03/Union%20Pacific%20trains%20per%20day.aspx

Today, there are fewer trains than that.  I would be delighted to see 100 trains a day on the line--aside from the railfanning possibilities, it would indicate the return of a robust economy.  The grade crossing traffic situation is bad, no question. However, it should improve now that eastbound trains have an additional 6 miles or so before reaching the Bon crossover and won't likely have to slow or stop in Maricopa now that they have two tracks ahead of them.

That said, I respectfully submit that someone is overstating the figure in order to make their case for the overpasses.

 

John Timm

 

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Posted by K. P. Harrier on Tuesday, June 14, 2011 8:08 AM

Some Replies ...

MikeF90 (6-4):

Whoever owns the Ontario Branch now really doesn't have much of a customer base on the branch.

If one follows the below linked aerial southward ...

Ontario Branch

... it seems there is only an active lumber yard at the south end (at least when the aerial was photographed).

It would be fun to have a time machine and see how the branch went south of there, through what are now wall-to-wall houses!

mvs (6-4):

Is this the LA&SL Missouri Pacific-like CP box at CP C159 DAGGETT that you mentioned?


(For those unfamiliar with the area, the BNSF "Transcon" -- that the LA&SL connects unto -- is visible in the background of the above photo.  Some of the UP trains through here traverse the Sunset Route or portions of it between Colton and Los Angeles).

Jovet (6-4):

What dynamics and physical laws were instrumental in arriving at your conclusions about 90 degree diamonds are unknown, but such diamonds are very prolific nationwide.  Nor do I have any specific knowledge of why the crossing of the LA&SL and the ex-SP Ontario Branch in Ontario, CA was changed from a 90 degree right angle to a slightly angled one.  However, as a life-long resident of Southern California, I've seen the CP C038 ONTARIO crossing from time to time since childhood, and have formed a very pointed opinion.

For years and years the 90 degree crossing sufficed.  What most don't know, unless they personally saw the previous diamond, is that the diamond was right at the end of an SP north side curve!

The link above (showing the crossing in question) in the reply to MikeF90 is relinked below:

Ontario Branch

For years K.P. had seen the old, previous diamond.  It was a horrific situation with the SP track very dilapidated and bent all out of shape, both sideways and up and down.  I never could understand why Ontario Branch approach movements stayed on the rails!  UP and SP probably scratched each other's back, and allowed the deployable crossing to continue indefinitely.  Of course, UP and SP merged, and thereafter the bad crossing continued to linger on.  However, when the Ontario Branch changed hands (or at least operators), well, the diamond was a different beast with a whole different liability environment with very unequal parties, illustratively a rather poor one and a filthy rich one.  Previously, each big railroad knew each other's system screwed up often and that everything would equal out in the long run.  But, a poor entity couldn't afford to think that way.  Knowing that, UP probably changed the circumstances in order to financially protect itself in an environment of un-equals.  But, that is only an opinion.

MikeF90 (6-7):

Yes, Mike, that crossing of the UP Riverside Industrial Lead and the BNSF San Jacinto Industrial Spur gives one a feeling.  I'm not sure what feeling it is.  I remember all that area with orange groves, and narrow streets.  It is now like a whole different world!

But, wait till Metrolink starts running commuter trains between Riverside and Perris.  That really will be like a very different world for the crossing!

Paul D. North Jr. (6-7):

About that diamond at CP C038 ONTARIO, see the memos to MikeF90 (6-4) and Jovet (6-4) above.

You post-conveyed great links on the future Milliken Ave. Flyover.

Continued ...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- K.P.’s absolute “theorem” from early, early childhood that he has seen over and over and over again: Those that CAUSE a problem in the first place will act the most violently if questioned or exposed.

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Posted by K. P. Harrier on Tuesday, June 14, 2011 8:40 AM

Some Replies ... (Continued)

BNSF6400 (6-7):

Frankly, I'm somewhat baffled at the new signal spacing between the CP AL525 GUASTI and CP AL529 SOUTH FONTANA. 

The old target locations in recent times:


  •         < >        < >         > 

  • ________  _________  _________  _________


  •                                <

The new color light masts:


  •         < >        < >  

  • ________  _________  ____________________

Exactly why such an uneven spacing now exists is unknown.

desertdog (6-9):

Thanks for you and the Mrs. taking the time to photograph and share what is happening two-tracking-wise in Arizona.  The tidbit about the swiftness of the eastward progression towards Red Rock was surprising.

More surprising, though, was what is currently transpiring in the Casa Grande area.  The intermediate signal set WEST of Ethington Rd. with single-bulb lower heads seemed sufficient to make statements about the future CP SP917 CASE GRANDE at Thornton Rd.  But, UP adding a second lower single-bulb set of intermediate signal eastward (in this case, by Ethington Rd.) blows me away!  I guess the arrangement will be for two yellow over greens in a row.

But, John, the signals EAST of downtown Casa Grande (at Peart Rd.) ...


... do NOT have MULTI-bulb lower heads!  Such would be necessary if CP SP917 CASA GRANDE was a universal crossover CP with an entrance to yard-like trackage just west of Thornton Rd.  Thus, theoretically, another set of intermediate signals should be erected EAST of Thornton Rd., possibly on a cantilever structure of some sort.

I had anticipated Casa Grande would be an interesting place for seeing what development track-wise, but never anticipated it would be this interesting!

Previously, at the new CP SP906 BON (just west of Anderson Rd.) the north (right) eastside lower head was a TWO-bulb unit, which I felt was incorrectly placed.


Susan's new photos of the eastside CP signals was gratifying, as they showed that that signal had indeed been changed out to a correct three-bulb lower head.

rdamon (6-10):

I am seeing color light LED's being used at new intermediate signal locations and not just at CP's.

UP in the past used target signals at CP's, and in some areas color lights at intermediate locations in between CP's.   Then, they started using color lights at all new installations regardless of the application.  Now, the color light LED's seem to be the new standard for both intermediate and absolute installations.

MikeF90 (6-10/11):

You said to desertdog, "Excellent report, John!"  I'll second that statement.  He and Susan did a great job in furthering our awareness of what is transpiring in Arizona!

That newspaper article you linked, Mike, had mentioned an astounding 100 trains per day!  As you implied, that is indeed questionable for single-track.  BNSF was getting such on single-track in New Mexico, but the single-track through Abo Canyon was only about five miles long!  (The second main was just opened for service, according to a recent TRAINS Newswire.)  But, the Sunset Route between Los Angeles and El Paso is only about 60% two-tracked, with hundreds of miles of single-track still remaining.

The Press is super notorious for inaccuracies on railroad reporting.  But, hey Mike, us railroaders and railfans can sift through those inaccuracies and discern what is true.  At least we have some railroad news to feed on from time to time from the Press!

I think I've replied to everyone I needed to ...

Take care all, and I hope everyone can stay 'cool' this summer!

K.P.

A PS Tidbit for desertdog about the "Hot" Climate in Arizona

I know it is hot in Arizona, like MikeF90 alluded to.  I walked over the Colorado River roadway bridge in Yuma, AZ in 110 degree heat to take train related photos.  But, the real classic was in 1981 (just before I blew up my first relatively new junk-car transmission).  I had pulled into a transit bus stop complex in Phoenix, and right away saw a poor transit bus driver standing by the back of his bus with the rear engine door open, and steam just noisily coming out cloudlike from the engine compartment.  The engine had boiled over big time.  It was really hot that day too!

Back in those days the Sunset Route was as it often is today:  On Interstate 8 one could follow much of the the tracks between Yuma and Tucson for hours and hardly see a train!

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- K.P.’s absolute “theorem” from early, early childhood that he has seen over and over and over again: Those that CAUSE a problem in the first place will act the most violently if questioned or exposed.

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Posted by Paul_D_North_Jr on Tuesday, June 14, 2011 10:25 AM

K. P. Harrier
A Hodgepodge Report

Territory:  Between Pomona and Fontana, CA

Part II (of I-V)

CP AL531 SOUTH FONTANA

[snipped] The west new now activated color light signals (as above) have a rare track arrangement associated with them.
  •              CP AL531
  •           SOUTH FONTANA
  •  Siding
  • ________ _________
  •                   \
  •                    \
  • ________ _________________ _______
  •              
  •                \              
  •                 \_________ _______

  •                             [100]

"Lap siding" - see Fig. 3-7 (?) in the late John A. Armstrong's booklet, "Track Planning for Realistic Operation".  I've seen photos of them too in John A. Rehor's The Nickel Plate Story.    See also the discussion at this thread - "What is a lap siding?" on the companion Model Railroader forum at:

http://cs.trains.com/TRCCS/forums/t/9439.aspx 

Also, this diagram of the "Ottawa Lap Siding":

 http://cg-tower.com/cpl/technical/Diagrams/Toledo%20Sub/Toledo%20Sub/pg18.JPG

 from this website: http://cg-tower.com/cpl/technical/toledosub.htm

Glad that Milliken Ave. info was of interest, and thanks to everyone else for the continuing reports, insights, and photos - esp. John & Susan Timm, who together appear to have picked-up on and adopted both K.P.'s photographic and writing styles just fine.  

Regarding the Marsh Station Rd., east of Tucson, AZ main line relocation of 3 - 5 miles, etc.:  Some pages back I had opined that the actual track-laying would not take too long - a month or two - once UP was authorized by AZDOT to start and could get everyone and everything that would be needed  for that scheduled and there.  The several recent reports of the similar (though much harder to access and hence more difficult to build) BNSF 2nd track in Abo Canyon now being in limited service - with full service expected shortly - corroborates that expectation.  Once all of the other work further west in Arizona as described above by the Timms is concluded, a logical next move would be to go do that.  Let's see what happens on that . . . Whistling

Ontario Branch - maybe I missed that detail previously, but: Is it no longer owned/ operated by UP ?  If not, then by who ?  Anyone know or have an idea ?

- Paul North.    

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Posted by desertdog on Tuesday, June 14, 2011 8:11 PM

K.P.,

 

A few quick observations:

I am somewhat surprised at the naming of a control point for Arizona Grain (M.P. 903.9).  It may well have to do with the fact that this is a huge customer of the railroad.  Nonetheless, this area has been known as "Cowtown," officially or unofficially, for decades.  There is a Cowtown environmental quality measuring station and even the Railway Atlas of North America shows it as such.

I have not commented on the large expanse of gravel on the north side of the roadbed at CP SP917.   Looking at recent satellite photos, it extends several hundred feet beyond the Thornton Rd. crossing and suggests a short siding or set out track will be installed there.   It may also serve to extend the drill track further down the way that serves the Chevron fertilizer facility.

When we visited Casa Grande back on 2/6/11, there were signal bases sitting off to one side at the Hermosilla Street crossing, MP 919.2.  I did not check to see if they were still there this time around, but assuming that they are, they may well be destined to support a set of intermediate signals at that point which is roughly half way between CP SP917 and Peart Rd. MP 921.2.  There is still a lot of work to be done in that vicinity, namely refurbishing the existing drill track into the future Track #2.

Summer is extremely hard on vehicles of all types in Arizona.  Car and RV fires are common because the heat under the hood becomes so intense.  All along I-10 you can see scorched places where vehicles have burned.  Relating this to railroads, much of the summer they operate with speed restrictions.  And even the light rail in Phoenix has made special provision to allow expansion of the overhead.

John Timm

 

 

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Posted by K. P. Harrier on Wednesday, June 15, 2011 8:33 AM

desertdog (6-14):

It was seemingly a rather insignificant reply side point, but within your last post proved to be the missing link!

desertdog

When we visited Casa Grande back on 2/6/11, there were signal bases sitting off to one side at the Hermosilla Street crossing, MP 919.2.  I did not check to see if they were still there this time around, but assuming that they are, they may well be destined to support a set of intermediate signals at that point which is roughly half way between CP SP917 and Peart Rd. MP 921.2. 

Because new un-activated westbound lower head type signals had been erected at Peart Road …


 … AND the grade crossing box did NOT have a milepost on it …

… the assumption was made that the location was only a few miles from the future CP at Thornton Road (M.P. 917.4). .

In actuality, though, it was in the four mile range, with you, John, reporting Peart Rd. as at M.P. 921.2.

So, the insignificant tidbit about signal stands at Hermosilla Rd. (M.P. 919.2) was the great eye opener!  In a strange quirk, then, on BOTH sides of the future CP SP917 CASA GRANDE there are TWO advance signal locations in a row with lower heads!  I’ve never seen that before.  One side, yes, but never both sides!

UP probably hasn’t erected signals at Hermosilla Rd. because the old industrial track (on a wide alignment) has to be rebuilt, and such could damage newly erected masts.

So, thanks for the ‘insignificant’ point, John.  It proved to be the missing link!

Best,

K.P.

---------

(A Second and Third Section follow with reposted photos to show the forum the locations desertdog and K.P. are discussing.)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- K.P.’s absolute “theorem” from early, early childhood that he has seen over and over and over again: Those that CAUSE a problem in the first place will act the most violently if questioned or exposed.

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Posted by K. P. Harrier on Wednesday, June 15, 2011 8:40 AM

Second Section

Hermosillo St. (From May 29, 2009)

Looking west:


There is a small industrial locomotive by Hermosilla St.


A view looking east:


Continued in Third Section

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- K.P.’s absolute “theorem” from early, early childhood that he has seen over and over and over again: Those that CAUSE a problem in the first place will act the most violently if questioned or exposed.

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Posted by K. P. Harrier on Wednesday, June 15, 2011 8:44 AM

Third Section

Peart Rd. (From March 13, 2011)

Looking west


Looking east


A never before posted eastward view from Peart Rd. with Picacho Peak in the background to give the Casa Grande area location perspective:


Picacho Peak (lower center distant background) is over thirty miles away.

 

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Posted by ccltrains on Wednesday, June 15, 2011 8:48 AM

If I did not know better I would think that the Peart road photo shows a balloon track on the left.  That would be the tightest curve in the world.

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Posted by Paul_D_North_Jr on Wednesday, June 15, 2011 9:26 AM

ccltrains
  If I did not know better I would think that the Peart road photo shows a balloon track on the left.  That would be the tightest curve in the world. 

K. P. Harrier
 [snipped]  Third Section - Peart Rd. (From March 13, 2011) - Looking west

http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff19/kpharrier/sunset%20ca-texas/DSC00441.jpg

               ^ ^ ^   Laugh  Good one !  - PDN. 

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Posted by Jovet on Wednesday, June 15, 2011 10:21 AM

quote K. P. Harrier

Jovet (6-4):

What dynamics and physical laws were instrumental in arriving at your conclusions about 90 degree diamonds are unknown, but such diamonds are very prolific nationwide.

Yes, they are common, but not like they used to be, and mostly on very slow or industrial track.  I can't state for certain it was changed for that reason, but it's a possibility.  It's also possible that the change in angle wasn't significant enough to make any difference on this point.

90° diamonds are "bad" because the right angle easily allows the wheels to momentarily drop into the gap reserved for the flanges on the crossing track.  Multiply that times a million wheels, and you have a battered railhead and an expensive maintenance headache for the railroad.  Look at how often mainline 90° or near-90° diamonds must be replaced.

Compare the 90° angle to the 40° angle above.  Contact with the railhead isn't really lost because it momentarily straddles the gap.  As the point of the wheel touching the rail approaches the gap, the receiving rail can pick-up the wheel just as the original loses contact with it.  Ideally.


quote K. P. Harrier

In a strange quirk, then, on BOTH sides of the future CP SP917 CASA GRANDE there are TWO advance signal locations in a row with lower heads!  I’ve never seen that before.  One side, yes, but never both sides!

That suggests to me that, in this situation, trains will see Approach Clear 60 followed by Approach Clear 50 and then the diverging aspect.

 

Happy to hear you've working wheels again, by the way!

 

 

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Posted by billio on Wednesday, June 15, 2011 11:07 AM

Jovet

90° diamonds are "bad" because the right angle easily allows the wheels to momentarily drop into the gap reserved for the flanges on the crossing track.  Multiply that times a million wheels, and you have a battered railhead and an expensive maintenance headache for the railroad.  Look at how often mainline 90° or near-90° diamonds must be replaced.

http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/1439/flangegapshrunk.png

Compare the 90° angle to the 40° angle above.  Contact with the railhead isn't really lost because it momentarily straddles the gap.  As the point of the wheel touching the rail approaches the gap, the receiving rail can pick-up the wheel just as the original loses contact with it.  Ideally.

Part of my commute to/from work used to take me through Joliet Union Station, Joliet, IL, where the two-track ex-Rock Island  crossed the two-track Santa Fe and the parallel single track ICG (ex-GM&O) at almost a right angle (I had thought the angle to be 90 degrees, but when I examined it on Google Earth to make sure, it appeared a few degrees shy).  If one arrived at the platform between the daytime hours of 9 and 5, one almost invariably encountered a gang of welders working on the diamond.  With all the traffic Santa Fe pumped over it, that diamond took a terrible daily battering, and the Rock, one conjectures, pushed a lot more freight traffic across there than does IAIS today. The seemingly constant manitenance was the result.

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Posted by Paul_D_North_Jr on Wednesday, June 15, 2011 11:16 AM

Jovet
  snipped]  Compare the 90° angle to the 40° angle above.  Contact with the railhead isn't really lost because it momentarily straddles the gap.  As the point of the wheel touching the rail approaches the gap, the receiving rail can pick-up the wheel just as the original loses contact with it.  Ideally.

  Depends on the size of the wheel-rail contact area as compared to the width of the gap, and how rigid the support is under each rail - whether another portion of the wheel tread will pick up the transferred load as the contact portion passes over the gap. 

About 25 years ago these bevel-cut gaps were very popular for the short load-cell type track scales because of that supposed reason.  Though I never particpated in or saw the results of a real-world instrumented test, my observations of wheels passing over them was that the impact was about the same - the gap was still about the size of the contact area of a dime or quarter coin.

A better solution for which the Ontario Branch crossing diamond would be ideal IMHO is a flange-bearing or "jump" frog, also known as "One-Way Low-Speed" or "OWLS" frogs.  See this presentation of May 14, 2010 by Michael N. Armstrong of BNSF's Engineering Dept. on "Overview of Flange-Bearing Frog Technology" to the University of Illinois' William W. Hay Railroad Engineering Seminar Series (35 slides/ pages, approx. 3.08 MB in size), esp. slides 4 and 23 - 33 inclusive, at: 

http://ict.illinois.edu/railroad/CEE/pdf/PPT's/Spring10/Amstrong.5-14-10.pdf 

- Paul North.   

"This Fascinating Railroad Business" (title of 1943 book by Robert Selph Henry of the AAR)
mvs
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Posted by mvs on Wednesday, June 15, 2011 12:24 PM

K. P. Harrier

mvs (6-4):

Is this the LA&SL Missouri Pacific-like CP box at CP C159 DAGGETT that you mentioned?

http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff19/kpharrier/bar-dag/DSCX6535-M.jpg

(For those unfamiliar with the area, the BNSF "Transcon" -- that the LA&SL connects unto -- is visible in the background of the above photo.  Some of the UP trains through here traverse the Sunset Route or portions of it between Colton and Los Angeles)

Yes, this is what I was referring to.  This box is much older than many of the new ones we see around SoCal, such as the new CP Hamilton in Pomona.

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Posted by Paul_D_North_Jr on Wednesday, June 15, 2011 2:08 PM

billio
  Part of my commute to/from work used to take me through Joliet Union Station, Joliet, IL, where the two-track ex-Rock Island  crossed the two-track Santa Fe and the parallel single track ICG (ex-GM&O) at almost a right angle (I had thought the angle to be 90 degrees, but when I examined it on Google Earth to make sure, it appeared a few degrees shy).  If one arrived at the platform between the daytime hours of 9 and 5, one almost invariably encountered a gang of welders working on the diamond.  With all the traffic Santa Fe pumped over it, that diamond took a terrible daily battering, and the Rock, one conjectures, pushed a lot more freight traffic across there than does IAIS today. The seemingly constant manitenance was the result. 

  Depending on the time frame when those diamonds = crossing frogs were actually manufactured and installed, likely there have been many advancements in metallurgy, fabrication, and post-fabrication treatment - as well as in-track maintenance practices - which extend the service life of the frogs quite a bit.  Compare with the crossing frogs at the Colton Crossing, which are also near 90 degrees and see quite a bit of traffic - yet I doubt if welders are working on them every day. 

That frequent welding and other repair and maintenance work costs the railroad in 2 ways - the actual out-of-pocket expenditures for the crew, their equipment, and consumed supplies, of course; and, the loss of line capacity because 1 or more tracks is out of service while that work is being performed, and there may be Slow Orders on the others.  My understanding is that the latter amount is by far the larger these days, and that's what really drives the MOW people to demand and the specialty trackwork manufacturing firms to provide a better and more durable product.  After some years of less-than-stellar progress in that regard, the last decade or so has seen significant advancement from what I understand. 

- Paul North. 

"This Fascinating Railroad Business" (title of 1943 book by Robert Selph Henry of the AAR)
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Posted by K. P. Harrier on Thursday, June 16, 2011 3:36 PM

Update as of Wednesday, June 15, 2011

Part I (of I-IV)

More LA&SL Signals Being Replaced

Between ("between") CP C033 WO TOWER (M.P. 33.0) and C039 BON VIEW (M.P. 38.4) on the LA&SL is about a five and a half mile section of old searchlight target signal circuitry.  Very recently, suchlike signals related to the diamond at M.P. 38.1 were shown to be in the process of being replaced with color lights.

Apparently, it is not only the signals related to the diamond, but the whole section is presently being upgraded.  In passing the west switch of the Montclair siding (CP C035 MONTCLAIR, M.P. 35.1), new masts were observed.


The present eastside target masts are unusually short, but the new masts are the new standard height.

For those unfamiliar with the location, the yard between CP C035 and CP C036 is the location where the infamous 2004 runaway started.  As a result, the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) ordered UP to install a power derail to prevent such high speed runaways all the way down to Los Angeles. 


The far short mast signal in the first photo above is seen on the left of the second photo.

The east switch of the Montclair siding (CP C036 MONTCLAIR) has not yet had the new color light installations started.  The sun was setting in a rather severe photo contrast situation.


That above CP is barely visible in the far background (by and just this side of the overpass) of the below reshown photo of the CP C038 ONTARIO diamond and cross track (center).


Continued in Part II

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- K.P.’s absolute “theorem” from early, early childhood that he has seen over and over and over again: Those that CAUSE a problem in the first place will act the most violently if questioned or exposed.

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Posted by K. P. Harrier on Thursday, June 16, 2011 3:44 PM

Update as of Wednesday, June 15, 2011

Part II (of I-IV)

The New Signals at Colton Crossing

The Colton Crossing (M.P. 538.7) was visited, and as usual, the new color light signals that were erected months ago still had not been cutover.  However, look what K.P. saw ...



A new south, turned away BNSF "Transcon" signal was lit ... at least for a few minutes, then it went dark again.  No signal people were observed at the site, but obviously they must have been somewhere nearby.  The Sunset Route-Transcon transition track is on the other side of the tracks, and below the Transcon track level

Such occasional "on" signals and testing was what transpired up on Cajon Pass (some 30 miles away) in 2008 during the BNSF's triple-tracking of that line.



So, the Colton Crossing is ever closer to the time when the new signals will finally be cutover.

Continued in Part III

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- K.P.’s absolute “theorem” from early, early childhood that he has seen over and over and over again: Those that CAUSE a problem in the first place will act the most violently if questioned or exposed.

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Posted by K. P. Harrier on Thursday, June 16, 2011 3:50 PM

Update as of Wednesday, June 15, 2011

Part III (of I-IV)

By Reason of Comparison

The above Cajon Pass short setout siding signal governs ENTRANCE to BNSF Main 1 (of three mains) through a manual switch, protected by a manual derail.  But, the signal is fully ELECTRICALLY hooked into the CP, and when the regular absolute eastbound CP signals light, so does the signal being discussed (photo background mast signal)!


UP's "exit" signals (now called an "absolute 'leaving signal'" in a recent timetable page) are NOT approach lit like those with BNSF...


... but light up only when the derail is closed for a train movement.

Continued in Part IV

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- K.P.’s absolute “theorem” from early, early childhood that he has seen over and over and over again: Those that CAUSE a problem in the first place will act the most violently if questioned or exposed.

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Posted by K. P. Harrier on Thursday, June 16, 2011 4:04 PM

Update as of Wednesday, June 15, 2011

Part IV (of I-IV)

Diode Signal Lights

While on a few hours of free time for this update, nearby San Bernardino was visited.  At Metrolink's San Bernardino Line CP RANCHO (M.P. 55.3, NOT to be confused with CP SP538 RANCHO just a few miles to the south on the Sunset Route) were what appeared to be diode light signals.



Those signals look different from those in UP's Araz area by Yuma, CA, as well as in the Maricopa, AZ area, both on the Sunset Route, though the lit display looked similar.  The above Metrolink signal lights are shown as a comparison to the new UP diode signals in the Los Angeles area, the below reshown one being at CP AL520 NORTH ONTARIO.


(Not to freak out followers of this Sunset Route thread ... But, before that Metrolink commuter train on the Metrolink track 'knocked the signal down,' the signal displayed yellow over flashing red!  Of course, after one more signal, the line ends.)

Now that K.P.'s late-model "junk car" is out of the way and gone, it is hoped sometime soon that Imperial County (and the diode lights there) can be visited ... maybe even Arizona again!  But, time will tell on that last idea ... And, the Glamis area trash train end-of-the-line is still on K.P.'s hit list ...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- K.P.’s absolute “theorem” from early, early childhood that he has seen over and over and over again: Those that CAUSE a problem in the first place will act the most violently if questioned or exposed.

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Posted by desertdog on Thursday, June 16, 2011 5:12 PM

K.P.'s posting on Metrolink signal aspects brings to mind something I observed at Maricopa last week: when a train occupies a block in two-track territory, the signal behind and facing away from the direction of the train's movement displays green until that train has moved into the next block further away from it.  In the past, on single track, the signal would display red for the duration that a train was in the block leading away from it.

Not that this difference is particularly important since it does not really govern train movement, I am nonetheless curious as to why the indication is now green rather than red.

 

John Timm

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