In addition to others I'd like to add my thanks (again) for the updates. I also think that this thread will be the all time leader in views if not posts. Over 122,200+ so far keeping those Kalmbach servers humming.
John
Thank you John and K.P. for the updates!
K.P., don't worry, I don't know much about the Twenty Seven X-Over except that it was mentioned on that website of old SP stations. It also was not eighteen miles from the Nine X-Over in Colton.
Conjectured Modifications to the Future CP AL514 HAMILTON
Part A (of A-D)
Recently, K.P. posted a theorized track layout for the future CP AL514 HAMILTON in Pomona, CA. Soon afterwards, MikeF90 posted his own diagram, and that diagram depicted Main "B" alongside Mains "C" and "D" west of Hamilton Blvd., whereas in the K.P. arrangement Main "B" was alongside Main "A." But, MikeF90 might be onto something!
PHOTO #1:
Part of the K.P. reasoning was based on the fact that previously there were flag markings east of Hamilton Blvd. that paralleled Main "A."
PHOTO #2:
And, logically, the new SP-side switch and its turnout route west of Hamilton Blvd. would line up with future new switches for Main "B" alongside Main "A" on the LA&SL side.
PHOTO #3:
Problematic, though, was the 'three-track' marking on the SP-side just east of Hamilton Blvd.
Continued in Part B
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- K.P.’s absolute “theorem” from early, early childhood that he has seen over and over and over again: Those that CAUSE a problem in the first place will act the most violently if questioned or exposed.
Part B (of A-D)
PHOTO #4:
Troublesome also for K.P. was the following morning eastward 'into the sun' photo that showed track for the future Main "B" on the SP-side rather than the LA&SL-side, but the reasoning for such was felt to allow for temporary easy access eastward in the interim on the LA&SL side.
But PHOTO #3's markings run counter to that. Thus, K.P. now believes three-tracks will be on the SP-side at Hamilton Blvd. as Diagram A illustrates.
Diagram A: The Conjectured Future Arrangeme
Just as a memory reminder, the following diagram is reshown, where the Main "B" was on the LA&SL side.
The previous Diagram 3:
Continued in Part C
Part C (of A-D)
With the leaning towards Main "B" being on the SP-side on both sides of Hamilton Blvd., we are still left with why NO signals are present yet on the west side.
K.P. now believes MikeF90 unwittingly laid the groundwork for an explanation of why there are currently no new signals present on the west side for the future CP AL514 HAMILTON.
PHOTO #5:
In the below westward facing photo, an SP-side alignment shift is shown (between AL514 and AL513) dating from soon after the SP-UP merger.
It is believed that in the future that alignment shift will be eliminated and Mains "C" and "D" both will be on straight alignments.
But, look at the Mapquest.com aerial linked below.
http://mapq.st/h/10-yfmXCK1x
PHOTO #6:
In the MapQuest view, the uninstalled switch in the middle just above the LA&SL Main is the switch that was previously installed in November 2009, and the below photo was shot during that daylong switch installation. But notice the walling that was built shortly beforehand ...
PHOTO #7:
Another view of that walling by the switch:
If we presume the walling is present relative to signaling and trainmen's access to the switch motor, which so often is the case, go back to the Mapquest.com link above and mentally draw a line northward (up) all the way across all the tracks, and imagine a new signal structure(s) on that imaginary line all away across the tracks. That imaginary line goes right through the present alignment shift shown in PHOTO #5, and THAT is very significant!
PHOTO #8:
Look at all the heavy equipment needed for just the LA&SL five-foot track alignment shift during the time of the switch installation above in PHOTO #5!
Can you imagine all the equipment that will be needed to alignment shift the alignment shifted track in PHOTO #5 so that there are two parallel side-by-side mains?
That is why, in this posters opinion, that new signaling is not yet present on the west side of the future CP AL514 HAMILTON. If there was a signal bridge present, surely it would be in great danger of being knocked down by all the equipment that will be struggling to alignment shift the tracks! And that project will likely NOT be a few weeks long project worked on in leisure, but rather, it likely will be a massive blitz-like project done in great haste because it will close that heavily used SP-side rail line all day!
Continued in Part D
Part D (of A-D)
In light of the conjectured SP-side having three-tracks, what kind of fixed signals arrangement might end up on the WEST side of CP AL514 HAMILTON?
PHOTO #9:
Theoretically, a signal bridge spanning all tracks could be erected, like what is on the EAST end of the CP. The view below looks west at the structure that is on the east end of the future CP AL514 HAMILTON:
PHOTO #10:
The south base of a WEST signal bridge may or may not fit between the tracks and the walling (See PHOTO #7). For one's personal evaluation, the south base on the EAST signal bridge is shown below.
Of course, the WEST signal bridge's south base would not need the protective blocks around it because of being above autos that could strike it.
PHOTO #11:
An alternative is a COMBINATION of a LA&SL LEFT side single signal mast (that would avoid the walling issue altogether) similar to the new LEFT sided signal (photo right) on the east side of CP AL504 E. MARNE ...
PHOTO #12:
...and an SP-side three-track cantilever signal bridge, like the structures BNSF uses on its three-track line over Cajon Pass. The below view is of BNSF's CP CAJON.
Such a combination arrangement with a left-side signal for the LA&SL side makes this poster wonder why such a long walling was put up adjacent to the public street. (See PHOTO #7)
While what UP actually does track- and signal-wise at the west end of the future CP AL514 HAMILTON is yet to be seen, the logic, illustrations, and conjectured ideas in this four-part series should give some viable possibilities for forum viewers to ponder.
K. P. Harrier PHOTO #1: Part of the K.P. reasoning was based on the fact that previously there were flag markings east of Hamilton Blvd. that paralleled Main "A." [snip] PHOTO #3: Problematic, though, was the 'three-track' marking on the SP-side just east of Hamilton Blvd.
[snip]
The flag markings in Photo #1 look more like a "mark-out" by / of an underground utility line than anything to do with trackwork, so I caution against relying upon that too much in analyzing the evidence and reaching your conclusions. That mark-out would be prudent - as well as likely required - if any excavation is planned in the vicinity, and regardless of which side the new "Main B" will be installed on. It's hard for me to determine the color of those flags from the photo, but orange is the standard color for communications-type lines - such as fiber-optic or other lines from SP's former SPRINT subsidiary - which is a good possibility for this line, and that location shown would be a plausible distance from the track if installed by rail-mounted 'plow' equipment. Red flags are the standard for electric power lines, which is much less likely at this location, in my opinion.
The thick white "1 - 4" - 3 TRKS" paint marks on the web of the rail in Photo #3 could mean almost anything. If there was a sharp curve there, I would take it to mean from 1" to 4" of superelevation; but since it is mostly tangent, it may mean that the 3 tracks need enought stone added to raise them form 1" to 4". Or, it could mean that the 3 tracks need to be shifted horizontally from 1" to 4" at this location ? It could also mean that an underground line is now or is to be installed 1' - 4" down below all 3 tracks - just that the " ' " mark for the "foot" was omitted. The details are also potentially significant - that kind of information is often marked with a yellow lumber crayon which we call "keel" around here, not with paint. White paint is the standard color for a proposed excavation. And often a paint 'stick' or tube is used to make a thinner line, not a broader brush as appears to have been used here. Why on the 'field' side of that rail and that track ? And why on the web, instead of on the base ? That's harder to do from a standing or stooping position - as the poor 'penmanship' quality of the lettering demonstrates here - and is worthwhile only if it is more likely to be seen there, such as if the base of the rail is expected to be covered up or temporarily buried under a few inches of ballast stone . . . .
Again, this is not to negate anyone's speculation - because surely I have no idea - but merely to help place all the facts and evidence here into their proper context.
Thanks again to everyone who has contributed here, esp. K.P., of course. More on that a little later.
- Paul North.
As for the lack of progress near Pomona, John's fine photo updates show us where UP is currently investing its capital instead ...
One part of my CP Hamilton speculation that needs clarification is the possibility of new EB signal bridge(s) just east of CP Roselawn, where the two ROWs converge at 34.058241, -117.774433 (see SoCal map link). IMO this should allow more 'leisurely' (safer), incremental track shifting and cutovers previously mentioned - there is still a lot of underground conduit to be installed for relocated and presumably missing new turnouts. Also, it would permit the future main D / industrial lead switch to be included in CP Hamilton rather than a separate CP.
Links to my Google Maps ---> Sunset Route overview, SoCal metro, Yuma sub, Gila sub, SR east of Tucson, BNSF Northern Transcon and Southern Transcon *** Why you should support Ukraine! ***
K. P. Harrier [snip] PHOTO #3: Problematic, though, was the 'three-track' marking on the SP-side just east of Hamilton Blvd.
While doing something else entirely unrelated tonight, a better and more likely answer to the markings in Photo #3 above occurred to me - based on it being on the rail's web and in brush paint, as follows: [what's in brackets below is what I surmise is omitted from the writing, as this is a kind of 'short-hand' code]
[Install or There is here] 1 - [each or piece or length of ] 4" [diameter pipe or galvanized steel conduit] - [under or sufficient for these or future] 3 TRKS
4" diam. galvanized steel conduit is very commonly used in and for railroad signal installations around here to carry wires and lines that cross under tracks, esp. at grade crossings, so I presume it is equally common at interlockings and CPs with train-control signals such as this one will be, etc.
Alternative plausible explanations are invited.
Update as of Thursday, December 2, 2010:
The Colton Signal Dept. Area
The following material is submitted to the forum after it was ascertained from a new found source of K.P.'s ...
At Colton, CA Union Pacific has had to resort to lining its signal dept. yard with heavy blocks to thwart and help prevent thieves from steeling any of the many reels of cable wire thereat.
As unbelievable as it may be, gutsy crooks apparently have simply cut the chain link fencing and carted away heavy cables. At least now they have an obstacle and can't just roll the cable to a waiting truck.
The BNSF containers at the Colton Crossing area have thinned out considerably.
At BNSF's CP WEST COLTON (just north of the B-5 Bridge over the Santa Ana River) the BNSF has finally erected part of the new cantilever signal bridge thereat.
The eastbound UP train in the view is moving leftward (eastbound) onto the transition track. In about a mile and a half the train will get onto the actual Sunset Route and head east to Arizona.
Hot News!
The Pomona to Kaiser, CA section is reportedly scheduled to have some, if not all, the new tri-light signals cut in Sunday, December 12, 2010.
--------
A Second Section to "Hot News!" will follow on the morning of Monday, December 6, 2010, and will deal with revealing tidbits from Industry, CA to Tucson, AZ, and should put previous and current Sunset Route news that has been reported on herein all into perspective as to what is and will be going on, and why.
K. P. Harrier Conjectured Modifications to the Future CP AL514 HAMILTON Part C (of A-D) [snip] But, look at the Mapquest.com aerial linked below. http://mapq.st/h/10-yfmXCK1x PHOTO #6: In the MapQuest view, the uninstalled switch in the middle just above the LA&SL Main is the switch that was previously installed in November 2009, and the below photo was shot during that daylong switch installation. But notice the walling that was built shortly beforehand ... PHOTO #7: Another view of that walling by the switch: If we presume the walling is present relative to signaling and trainmen's access to the switch motor, which so often is the case, go back to the Mapquest.com link above and mentally draw a line northward (up) all the way across all the tracks, and imagine a new signal structure(s) on that imaginary line all away across the tracks. That imaginary line goes right through the present alignment shift shown in PHOTO #5, and THAT is very significant! PHOTO #8: Look at all the heavy equipment needed for just the LA&SL five-foot track alignment shift during the time of the switch installation above in PHOTO #5! Can you imagine all the equipment that will be needed to alignment shift the alignment shifted track in PHOTO #5 so that there are two parallel side-by-side mains? That is why, in this posters opinion, that new signaling is not yet present on the west side of the future CP AL514 HAMILTON. If there was a signal bridge present, surely it would be in great danger of being knocked down by all the equipment that will be struggling to alignment shift the tracks! And that project will likely NOT be a few weeks long project worked on in leisure, but rather, it likely will be a massive blitz-like project done in great haste because it will close that heavily used SP-side rail line all day! Continued in Part D
Part C (of A-D) [snip]
Just a few comments on the above:
I believe the "walling" (pre-cast segmental concrete retaining wall) was installed mainly to keep the track ballast shoulder from spilling further out into the street, as it is shown already doing just that at the end of the wall at the bottom of Photo #7. As K.P. has suggested, the ballast section is likely to be widened and/ or raised - note the safety 'handrail' wires along the top - for the new switch's machine, trainman walkway, MOW C&S, and Mech Dept. vehicle access, and perhaps for the base of a new signal.
All the heavy equipment for the 5 ft. shift shown in Photo #8 is needed to complete project more rapidly, rather than becasue of the weight of the track or the distance of sideways/ lateral shift. A single such loader could do it, but it might a good portion of a day, because each section of track could be moved sideways only a foot or so at a time to avoid kinking it - then the loader would have to move up along the track 20 - 30 ft. or so and again perform that maneuver, and then repeat again until done. With multiple loaders as shown, the near loader could shift the track the 1st 1 ft., the next loader 2 ft., the 3rd for 3 ft., the 4th one 4 ft. which is almost all of the shift that was needed here, and so on - presuming the far end had been cut loose, of course. The moving up of the loaders is delicate and time-consuming - probably takes loinger than the shift. So with 4 loaders they can all 'leap-frog' ahead at once, and so many less of those maenuvers will need to be performed. So having many loaders saves time in 3 important and different ways 1) more of a length of track can be shifted each time; 2) the track can be shifted much farther each time; and, 3) less times or cycles will be needed.
By positioning and operating the loaders carefully, damage to a signal base and/ or pole or column could be avoided, as long as the track does not have to be shifted from one side of it to the other - similar maneuvers are commonly done. But of course it would be easier to accomplish that with less obstacles in the way, so if the signal isn't immediately essential to train operations over the new track configuration at the end of the shifting, then better to leave them out of the way until that is done.
Often a challenging part of these operations is planning and implementing the phasing or sequencing to get from the 'now' configuration to the 'future' configuration in a manageable series of short steps that won't keep the line or area out of service too long at any one time, again as K.P. has noted. While it is of course always desirable to accomplish such changes in one fell swoop, operating needs may preclude boldly achieving that. So what often happens is that a multi-step 'dance' is scheduled - utilizing a bunch of incremental small steps instead - to get the big desired end result. That sometimes leads to oddball and sometimes seemingly counter-productive 'interim' configurations and sometimes 'double work', 'back-tracking', putting a section of track back to where it came from after another segment is installed and placed into service, etc., but it is all to promote the greater good and end goal. That kind of thing may also be a reason to defer the signal installation uintil the track reconfiguration is completed. It will be interesting to see how this one develops and plays out into the ultimate final product.
Hot News! (Second Section)
Very recently the suggestion was made here at the forum that the west switch area (M.P. 506.5) of the WALNUT siding would begin two-tracks eastward. A source of this poster indicated the west end area of WALNUT would indeed be the beginning of two-tracks eastward.
A west side reshown view from Lemon St.:
Looking east, also reshown:
What exactly the track layout will be like at the future CP is unknown, but the future switch MAY BE on the east side of the grade crossing, based on the new fact that it will be named after a very odd-to-pronounce street one to two blocks EAST of Lemon Ave. This poster figured the oddly named street would be easy to find on MapQuest. What wasn't anticipated, though, was that TWO very similar oddly named streets are side by side, so at this point the CP name cannot be posted with certainty, but the two streets are Paseo Sonrisa and Paseo Tesora. Both of the similar names are rather distinctive for a CP location designation, and unlikely to be confused with anything else. This poster leans more towards the Paseo Sonrisa name of the two.
The two-tracks (SP Alhambra Sub) will head east and swing towards (below photo's upper center) and meet the two-tracks (LA&SL Los Angeles Sub) on the southerly route where a four-track CP will be located. The CP name is no longer a mystery, as it WILL be called CP SPADRA!
The view above looks west from Temple Ave. (Pomona) at the future CP SPADRA. The view above is also a very early view, and does not show the present installed crossover.
In the Vina Vista (pronounced vee-nah vis-tah) area, when the Pomona to Fontana segment is two-tracked, somewhere around M.P. 526 in the below photo's background, there is supposed to be a "universal crossover," or simply put, a double-crossover.
A reshown westward view from Etiwanda Ave.:
An also reshown eastward view from the same Etiwanda Ave.: Kaiser Yard is on the photo left. Another CP was mentioned by the source as going in somewhere in the photo background, possibly near Cherry Ave. If this poster understood the staffer correctly, that CP will be called CP KAISER.
In the Citrus Ave.-Sierra Ave. area there are large advertising signs that there has been considerable forum discussing about, because they block laying a second mainline. Those advertising signs WILL be removed to make room for the second main near to track laying time!
The sources said that tri-light signals are replacing old target signals by Salton Sea (the water sun reflection in the background in the photo below). In that below previously shown Salton Sea photo, the crossing gate WAS leaning over (for any that may have thought that they may have had too much to drink).
A reshown photo as an example of the target signals that supposedly are (or will be) replaced:
That source also said that the reason for so many tri-lights now replacing target signals is that old target signals are not compatible with Positive Train Control, which the Federal Government has decreed must be in use on the nation's railroads in just a few more years.
In recent times, this poster has traveled away from the tracks that are on the east side of Salton Sea for expediency in getting to photographable Sunset Route two-tracking sites. Hopefully, time can be found soon to check out the missed east side Indio to Niland line that supposedly is receiving tri-lights.
As followers of this thread know, there are now two-tracks between ESTRELLA and EAST MARICOPA, AZ. The below reshown photo is an eastward view looking at the latter CP point.
The line between EAST MARICOPA (M.P. 898.8) and the community of Casa Grande is now in the process of being two-tracked. However, the source indicated that the entire EAST MARICOPA to STOCKHAM (M.P. 979.4) line, which is already graded and ready for track laying, will be two-tracked in this effort. STOCKHAM (just west of Tucson) to EL PASO is already two-tracked.
To refresh forumites' memory of the above mentioned area of renewed two-tracking ... About 10 miles railroad west of Tucson, AZ, at M.P. 974.1, is the west switch of the KINO siding by Ina Road in the community of Marana. The grading was already in place back when the reshown below photos were shot on May 29, 2009.
Back in California ... The source indicated that between LA&SL CP C026 GRAND (M.P. 26.2) and Los Angeles two additional 50 M.P.H. double-crossovers CP's would be built.
All the above new information was acquired almost in a mental overload situation without pen and paper for note taking, but it is believe everything above is accurate or nearly so. One additional thing especially noteworthy was that the source indicated that hundreds are being hired for the two-tracking effort! K.P. got the distinct impression that UP is almost overwhelmed in its resumption of two-tracking. This poster interpreted that as a very good sign of good things to come economically, but time will tell.
I read last week (sorry can't remember where, it was late) that UP will be spending 3+ billion next year. There was no breakdown as to where the money was going but the impression was that most was headed for the two tracking. I would guess that the new yard in Az and facilities in NM may be included Speculation on my part.
john_edwards I read last week (sorry can't remember where, it was late) that UP will be spending 3+ billion next year. There was no breakdown as to where the money was going but the impression was that most was headed for the two tracking. I would guess that the new yard in Az and facilities in NM may be included Speculation on my part. John
K.P.,
Wow! Thanks for the informative posts.
Update as of Wednesday, December 8, 2010:
The Colton Signal Facility
This poster observed that a good sized stack of assembled, headless signal masts are now present on the facility's west side. Twenty or more masts could be counted. A number of UP workers also were working near them. On the short duration visit, there did NOT seem to be a pile of just masts present as had been previously. Apparently, new put together signals are being carried in groups to and erected somewhere in Southern California, possibly down in the Salton Sea area.
Two OLD "Detector" boxes are now at the Colton site. One was stenciled M.P. 492.0 (between Alhambra and El Monte), the other M.P. 516.6 (a Pomona location between CP RESERVOR and CP NORTH MONTCLAIR). It is unknown if new replacements had been installed at those sites, or if the rail line had new detectors placed in other locations instead.
Pomona to City of Industry, CA:
Later on, in the darkness of nighttime, the above subtitle area was checked out on the way to pick up the Mrs. at LAX Airport on her return from vacationing in Hawaii. Nothing new was observed. The 'Up and Over' in Industry still does not have a second track laid over it.
mvs (12-7):
You asked, "Why not use the existing Walnut name?" My guess is that by not using the name confusion will be avoided.
Years ago when SP and UP (LA&SL) were separate railroads, they both had sidings named WALNUT that were in close proximity to each other. Even today the name "Walnut" is listed as a location on both the Alhambra (SP) and Los Angeles (LA&SL) Subdivision timetables. By using one of the somewhat odd new "Paseo" names for a CP instead of Walnut, it would seem that there would be no question that the Alhambra Sub was meant.
About a "Paseo" CP Name
Either the Paseo Sonrisa or Paseo Tesora name will be used for the future SP-side Walnut area CP at the future end of two-tracks from the east (Pomona).
From a longtime friend of Spanish ancestry, the following translations were uncovered in behalf of the forum:
"Paseo" means "avenue."
"Sonrisa" means "smile."
"Tesora" means "treasure."
During the time of the "Pomona to City of Industry, CA" segment mentioned above, a nighttime visit to the "Paseo" streets area was made. This poster saw those Spanish named street signs, and they had the Spanish "Paseo" in small letters BEFORE the main, large lettered word. In English, the "Ave." is typically in small letters AFTER the main word.
If ("if"!) we can manage to get past mvs-like nostalgia (it is hard for me too!), the Spanish named CP should certainly add zing to the Sunset Route, if not mental visions of a pleasant idea ...
Here a few updates about two Southern California grade separation projects:
Work has begun on the Passons Boulevard underpass in Pico Rivera
Another news article about the Milliken Avenue up-and-over in Ontario
K.P., I don't know about the MP 492.0 detector, but the one at 516.6 continues to announce itself regularly on the railroadradio.net scanner ....
K. P. HarrierUpdate as of Thursday, December 2, 2010: Hot News! (Second Section) Part D (of A-D) ... snip ... Back in California ... The source indicated that between LA&SL CP C026 GRAND (M.P. 26.2) and Los Angeles two additional 50 M.P.H. double-crossovers CP's would be built.
... snip ...
Perhaps Mr. North or other rail construction guru knows of a similar situation elsewhere.
13 Dec update: visited the Industry area yesterday and saw almost no evidence of new yard or siding construction. Not sure how they will fit a new track under the 60 Fwy ....
Update as of Wednesday, December 15, 2010:
Montclair to Ontario, CA
New Signals Activated
On the original Sunset Route between the east switch NORTH MONTCLAIR (M.P. 518.2) and the east switch SOUTH FONTANA (M.P. 530.5) is a stretch of old target signals that reportedly were to be replaced with new tri-lights on December 12. K.P. field checked that stretch this date, and found a slow progression of tri-lights being activated eastward.
Looking eastward from the Central Ave. overpass at the east switch of NORTH MONCLAIR during drizzle-like weather.
In the above photo, note that the east signal (background upper center) for approaching westbounds is a LEFT-sided one (photo right). The CP box is also on the photo right, with room for the future second main.
The west switch of NORTH ONTARIO (M.P. 519.7), looking west: An eastbound had gone through here just seconds before, hence, the signals are still lit. The photo was taken from Vine Ave.
In the photo just above, note the yellow piece of equipment and orange vested worker on the left.
There were much active equipment and workers in cleanup operations. The old signals were nowhere to be found.
Now, at the east switch of NORTH ONTARIO (M.P. 520.9), looking west: The new CP box out of view on the photo left had its door open, and the electronics inside were being worked on.
From the above point eastward to the west switch GUASTI, it is unknown if the new signals have been activated or not. However, the east switch GUASTI (M.P. 524.7) was NOT yet powered up, and the signal heads were turned aside.
The situation was likewise all the way eastward to the west switch of SOUTH FONTANA (M.P. 529.3). For the first time, the west end of that siding had a new, short mast erected, with some unknown type of head on it. The typical high mast may not have fit between the siding and the Kaiser Yard lead, thus explaining the short mast It is hoped this can be investigated further at some future date.
Backtracking slightly, the grade crossing gates' old control box at Milliken Ave. (M.P. 525.40) was removed, and its new 'way away from the tracks' replacement is now in service. It is believed that the new box was placed so far away to allow room for the shoefly for the early next year beginning of construction of the 'Up and Over' railroad flyover over Milliken Ave.
K. P. Harrier Update as of Wednesday, December 15, 2010: [snip] Looking eastward from the Central Ave. overpass at the east switch of NORTH MONCLAIR during drizzle-like weather. In the above photo, note that the east signal (background upper center) for approaching westbounds is a LEFT-sided one (photo right). The CP box is also on the photo right, with room for the future second main. [snip]
[snip] Looking eastward from the Central Ave. overpass at the east switch of NORTH MONCLAIR during drizzle-like weather.
In the above photo, note that the east signal (background upper center) for approaching westbounds is a LEFT-sided one (photo right). The CP box is also on the photo right, with room for the future second main. [snip]
Wondering why the 'jog' in the alignment of the right track/ siding in the above photo ? Was the former signal located between the tracks here, which would necessitate that to provide adequate clearances from both tracks ? In any event, I would expect that kink to be 'ironed out' when the scond main is extended - otherwise, it will be awfully close to the new CP box on the right . . .
Paul_D_North_Jr K. P. Harrier: Update as of Wednesday, December 15, 2010: [snip] Looking eastward from the Central Ave. overpass at the east switch of NORTH MONCLAIR during drizzle-like weather. In the above photo, note that the east signal (background upper center) for approaching westbounds is a LEFT-sided one (photo right). The CP box is also on the photo right, with room for the future second main. [snip] Wondering why the 'jog' in the alignment of the right track/ siding in the above photo ? Was the former signal located between the tracks here, which would necessitate that to provide adequate clearances from both tracks ? In any event, I would expect that kink to be 'ironed out' when the scond main is extended - otherwise, it will be awfully close to the new CP box on the right . . . - Paul North.
K. P. Harrier: Update as of Wednesday, December 15, 2010: [snip] Looking eastward from the Central Ave. overpass at the east switch of NORTH MONCLAIR during drizzle-like weather. In the above photo, note that the east signal (background upper center) for approaching westbounds is a LEFT-sided one (photo right). The CP box is also on the photo right, with room for the future second main. [snip]
Paul,CN has a similar arrangement on the north end of Winnebago Siding in (aptly enough) Winnebago, WI. I was told it was necessary for switch alignment. Not being an engineer I can't quantify that with numbers. I'll see if I can get a picture of it if you'd like.
Dan
K.P., thanks for the update.
You likely heard of it, but earlier this week there was a tragic accident at (what I believe is) the same Milliken Avenue crossing that the railroad tracks will eventually go over.
CNW 6000 Paul,CN has a similar arrangement on the north end of Winnebago Siding in (aptly enough) Winnebago, WI. I was told it was necessary for switch alignment. Not being an engineer I can't quantify that with numbers. I'll see if I can get a picture of it if you'd like.
Well, then that lends credence to my other theory - that it's to lengthen the tangent/ straight track from the turnout to the 'return curve' so as to prevent an 'S'-curve problem. With longer cars and higher speeds through a mainline turnout to/ from a siding, it can be hard to provide enough separation to accomplish that - even with a No. 20 turnout - which leads to extending and exaggerating the tangent as we see here. The siding appears to be at about 15 ft. C/L to C/L from the main track, but about 20 ft. at the apex of the 'kink' opposite the signals. So increasing the siding-to-main spacing to 20 or 25 ft. aids that effort, as well as being safer for maintenance crews on either track.
Oddly enough, railroad standard plans for No. 8 or No. 10 turnouts to parallel sidings are OK with only 30 to 40 ft. of tangent track between the frog and the 'return curve', even though longer locomotives and cars will operate over them . . .
Dan, a photo of that siding would be good. And consider this: Is the other end the same or similar ? How about other sidings in the vicinity ? Those comparisons may shed some more light on the rationale for this.
Thanks again to K.P. for taking and sharing his photos.
Paul D. North Jr. (12-16):
Here is a view of that east end of NORTH MONCLAIR taken August 24, 2009, and it clearly shows the reason for the siding track swinging out, merely to go around the old mast target signal.
Such old arrangements are quite common on the Sunset Route. The NORTH MONTCLAIR 'swinging out' is not likely to be corrected anytime soon, but traditionally suchlike is aligned correctly when the second main is laid.
Best,
K.P.
Right the 1st time, I was . . .
Thanks for digging out and posting that photo of the former condition there, K.P.
K. P. Harrier Paul D. North Jr. (12-16): Here is a view of that east end of NORTH MONCLAIR taken August 24, 2009, and it clearly shows the reason for the siding track swinging out, merely to go around the old mast target signal. Such old arrangements are quite common on the Sunset Route. The NORTH MONTCLAIR 'swinging out' is not likely to be corrected anytime soon, but traditionally suchlike is aligned correctly when the second main is laid. Best, K.P.
I often wondered if that was placed for high - wide loads to clear oppposing &/or following trains to clear the load. What are the old track centers on the SP Sunset route vs the UP track centers? Does not look like even a short High - Wide would stop there without fouling the turnouts?
I have seen"swing outs" like this elsewhere. The original C&NW-CMO "Route of the 400's" between Milwaukee and the Twin Cities comes to mind. The purpose always seems to be to provide clearance around signals.
John Timm
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.