Hey, desertdog ...
You recently mentioned you wished something would happen news-wise in Arizona. Well, check these items out ...
The TRAINS Magazine Interview with UP's Big Boss
For non-TRAINS Magazine subscribers, or for those that haven't seen it yet ...
In the November 2010 TRAINS Magazine, Page 14, TRAINS editor Jim Wrinn telephone interviewed UP's CEO Jim Young. When Young was asked about the Sunset Route two-tracking, Young implied the project MIGHT be done in two to three years from now! That would be cool. But, K.P. will believe it when he sees it. Negative things have been so turbulent, changing so fast, and surprises developing so quickly, that many reliable sources appear unreliable. But, words from UP's head honcho have to be giving their rightful due. Young said that he "wouldn't be surprised" if the two-tracking was "finished" in the above time frame.
And, Then Comes the TRAINS Newswire!
The October 6 Newswire stated that nine miles in Imperial County of California, and nine miles in Maricopa County in Arizona, would be two-tracked. And, the "investment" would take place this year!
--------
A report to the forum will be forthcoming soon about what is happening in the City of Industry to Ontario, CA area. And, watch for photographically associating the Chino Branch in California to track in Nebraska.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- K.P.’s absolute “theorem” from early, early childhood that he has seen over and over and over again: Those that CAUSE a problem in the first place will act the most violently if questioned or exposed.
K. P. Harrier Hey, desertdog ... You recently mentioned you wished something would happen news-wise in Arizona. Well, check these items out ... The TRAINS Magazine Interview with UP's Big Boss For non-TRAINS Magazine subscribers, or for those that haven't seen it yet ... In the November 2010 TRAINS Magazine, Page 14, TRAINS editor Jim Wrinn telephone interviewed UP's CEO Jim Young. When Young was asked about the Sunset Route two-tracking, Young implied the project MIGHT be done in two to three years from now! That would be cool. But, K.P. will believe it when he sees it. Negative things have been so turbulent, changing so fast, and surprises developing so quickly, that many reliable sources appear unreliable. But, words from UP's head honcho have to be giving their rightful due. Young said that he "wouldn't be surprised" if the two-tracking was "finished" in the above time frame. And, Then Comes the TRAINS Newswire! The October 6 Newswire stated that nine miles in Imperial County of California, and nine miles in Maricopa County in Arizona, would be two-tracked. And, the "investment" would take place this year! -------- A report to the forum will be forthcoming soon about what is happening in the City of Industry to Ontario, CA area. And, watch for photographically associating the Chino Branch in California to track in Nebraska.
K.P.,
Yes, it is indeed great news. Looking at the map and taking into consideration what I already know about control points, existing sidings, industries, etc., I am curious as to which "nine miles" they intend to complete. The only stretch that immediately comes to mind is Maricopa to Bon siding.
John Timm
On one hand the news release is a good sign. On the other hand, it seems that to UP 'two lanes' west of Colton Crossing is good enough for now.
I wonder if that 3.5 miles of taxpayer funded, groomed ROW west of Pomona is really 'ballast ready' after all. Grumble, grumble. Grade crossings, no problem!
Links to my Google Maps ---> Sunset Route overview, SoCal metro, Yuma sub, Gila sub, SR east of Tucson, BNSF Northern Transcon and Southern Transcon *** Why you should support Ukraine! ***
MikeF90On one hand the news release is a good sign. On the other hand, it seems that to UP 'two lanes' west of Colton Crossing is good enough for now. I wonder if that 3.5 miles of taxpayer funded, groomed ROW west of Pomona is really 'ballast ready' after all. Grumble, grumble. Grade crossings, no problem!
A few thoughts on this and in general. Mike, I wonder if those 9 miles of track to be laid are down by Ogilby and Cactus, where the grading was. I agree about the Temple Avenue project--wish they'd just get ti done already, if only for PR purposes!
K.P., good to have you back! I hope my info here doesn't usurp yours, but I didn't bring the camera.
At East Walnut (east end of Walnut siding), the new hooded signals turned sideways were lit red (or red over red for the westbound signal).
The grading of Sunset Avenue and Orange Avenue under the new railroad bridges is making progress, though the streets are still unpaved. I don't think the levels of those streets are at the same level as Valley Boulevard, either.
Update as of Wednesday, October 6, 2010:
Part I (of I-III)
City of Industry to Ontario, CA
A quick perusal of the Sunset Route between the City of Industry and Ontario was made on the above date.
The 'Up and Over' did not seem to have had any trackwork done. But the stacked ties all the way over the structure were more clearly evident in the below head-on view from Puente Ave. (on the west) than from the previous side view (from Valley Blvd. on the south).
The grade crossing flashers bridge at Sunset Ave. (at M.P. 499.20) was found to be assembled, erected, and in place. The roadway was still closed. And yes, autos and eighteen wheelers will fit under the bridge on the right ... but what an illusion it makes!
Some type of final south wall is being constructed toward the east end of the 'Up and Over.' The photo was shot from Valley Blvd. near California Ave.
Continued in Part II
Part II (of I-III)
The below awkward 'grab shot' while stopped at an auto traffic light at the east end of the MARNE siding, shows the now installed signal heads on the new mast. The lower head only has two-bulbs, which is very inconsistent with the beginning of two-tracks westward.
The new, slightly S-curve at the west end of the Diversion in Pomona was not photographed, but you will recall that it was recently de-weeded and cleared of overgrowth. It again is starting to be overgrown with weeds!
The Temple Ave. overpass in Pomona was quickly driven over, and it was seen that nothing obvious had been done at the big four-track CP towards the west of the Diversion, and that the remaining uninstalled switches are just still lying around haphazardly.
At the new west signal bridge at Humane Way that was temporarily taken down, the structure was found to have been re-erected.
In downtown Pomona, nothing seems to have had been done at the not in service yet big new [CP] AL514 HAMILTON. The west end of the new CP still does NOT have any type of signals present.
Continued in Part III
Part III (of I-III)
An interesting development has taken place in the Milliken Ave. area on the east side of Ontario, where an additional 'Up and Over' will also be built.
The following eastward from Milliken Ave. photo was previously posted herein. BETWEEN the large whitish building on the upper left and the railroad tracks across from it is a small whitish box, but NO signals.
At home, K.P. extremely enlarged the photo, and NOTHING was observed to be between the whitish box and the tracks, or even near the tracks on either side.
However, on this past Wednesday's visit, look what was found!
There were new 'old' operational bi-directional target signals and new, not in service yet tri-lights!
Looking the other way, to the west, even more things are seen.
New signals are at the east end of the GUASTI siding! At the far photo distant background are even more new signals at the west end of the GUASTI siding as well!
This poster is not sure of what is going on with the above, as three possibilities are discerned:
(1) Revamping the signal system in preparation for two-tracking through this section in the future,
(2) Preparation for the building of an 'Up and Over' at Milliken Ave., or
(3) A railroad reaction response to the recent very disastrous UP 8315 West mainline rear-ender just west of the west switch of [CP] SOUTH FONTANA, near the Kaiser Yard. In that accident, some have questioned the signal system, a system the Press reported on, a system that K.P. calls 'weird,' but that an alert, familiar with the territory, non-sleeping crew should have been able to have dealt with.
It should be noted that the SOUTH FONTANA, NORTH ONTARIO, and NORTH MONTCLAIR sidings were not checked out, so what is going on in the Milliken Ave. area this poster has nothing to compare with so as to make an evaluation.
This will conclude the City of Industry to Ontario update filing with the forum.
A Reply Memo to billio (10-6):
It is good to be back ... Not only to be with the family again, but to get away from the grueling aspect of the 'delivery' vacation. The trip did make me resolve to rethink how I took this past railfan oriented vacation, and get back to practicing what I always preach ... which is to relax! The Mrs. several years ago finally saw the light and stopped vacationing like a chicken with its head cut off, and now never needs a vacation just to recuperate from a vacation!
Anyway, about relaying that taken up welded rail by Marsh Station Road in Arizona: I have no specific knowledge about those specific rails, but my guess is that the probably worn, taken-up rails will never see the high volume Sunset Route again! Likely, it will be transferred to and re-laid on some low volume branch line in another state, or reinstalled on a low volume siding on the Central Corridor's two-track / double-track line. Imagine, billio, a piece of rail going from the blistering heat of Arizona to a frozen branch in Nebraska or Iowa, or maybe even a 40 degrees below zero spur on Donner Pass!
Take care,
K.P.
Great update, K.P.!
Those new signal masts on either side of Milliken Ave are most puzzling. Assuming a new flyover like Sunset Ave is coming, it will barely fit between them. I would have expected some track shifting and a new bridge at east Guasti to take advantage of the empty north ROW - there are two (possibly active) industry leads off of the south side. Also, note that both masts have unused lower brackets - just standard or ???? Very curious ...
Pomona, CA Area Signals and Nebraska
Part A
In the K.P. post of March 9, 2010 in this thread, page 47, and effort was made to figure out Humane Way's west side eastbound "A" Main signal arrangement. Unlike all the rest of the signals on both the west and east sides of Humane Way, which have a lower single-bulb head, the lower head in question has THREE bulbs.
It had been suggested that that three-bulb mystery head might be related to the Chino Industrial Lead, and the long [CP] C033 WO TOWER. The west side of that CP currently connects the LA&SL and SP through a transition track ...
... Whereas the eastern end of [CP] C033 WO TOWER is the branching off of the Chino Industrial Lead.
All three of the photos above were previously shown in this thread.
In that above mentioned March 9 post an example of a strange switch and signal arrangement in Nebraska was given, and it was suggested that what had been done in Nebraska might be what will be done in Pomona.
In Nebraska, a dual-control switch on Main 1 led to a north side siding that followed the two mains eastward for a mile or so. Only the siding had a single-head target signal governing westbound movements onto Main 1, but Main 1 had NO signals whatsoever. The absolute signals associated with that switch were probably a mile on each side of the switch.
Continued in Part B
Part B
In the last couple of weeks, towards the end of September, K.P. happened to travel through Nebraska and found that Midwest location, which was just west of Sidney, NE. The bad news is that UP apparently decided the switch-without-signals-nearby concept was not a very swift idea, and changed it. The following photos attempt to convey what is presently at the site ...
The below photo shows an eastside head-on view that looks westbound toward the swooping curve that is near the east side.
The following identifies important features in the above photo: From left to right are Main 2, Main 1, and the siding. On the left is a single mast with tri-light heads on it that face both westbound and eastbound for Main 2. The Main 2 signals are number plated intermediates. The short local train that is approaching is on Main 1, and the signals for that track, in the photo foreground and background, are likewise number plated intermediates. On the right is the siding, with a non-intermediate / non-absolute signal to the right, with the typical end-of-siding single-aspect (red) target over a tri-light.
A south side view also looking westward, but at those Main 1 and siding junction signals:
Looking eastward from the southwest side:
The above signals are in the vicinity of M.P. 410.2, and in a milepost series that is marked westward from Omaha, NE (technically, from Council Bluff, IA) to Ogden, UT.
Continued in Part C
Part C
Because Main 1's signals are intermediates, it is assumed the Nebraska switch discussed in Part B no long has a dual-control motor, as dual-control switches are traditionally incompatible with intermediate signals. The switch MAY now be of the spring switch variety, however.
K.P., nevertheless, desired to get a better look. Sometimes one can fudge it, and get a little closer to the tracks ... But, K.P. quickly decided something glaringly obvious RIGHT ACROSS FROM THE SWITCH made such inadvisable!
Oh, well ...
So, with the Part B's Sidney, NE vicinity signals in mind, we go back to the Pomona, CA area again. After the new, big [CP] AL514 HAMILTON is operational, likely [CP] C033 WO TOWER will continue to exist, though probably in a shortened form.
In light of that conclusion, the three-bulb lower head Main "A" signal on the west signal bridge at Humane Way becomes ever more mysterious. Anybody have any concrete, in-the-know information about it?
mvsMike, I wonder if those 9 miles of track to be laid are down by Ogilby and Cactus, where the grading was.
BTW, I just came across another reason for UP to speed up the 2MT project in Cali. The Puente Hills Intermodal Facility is being built to ship waste by rail to the Mesquite Regional Landfill near Glamis in Imperial County; it is supposed to come on line in 2012. If there are traffic delays in the IE metro area this will be, literally, quite a stink!
Update as of Sunday, October 10, 2010:
On the Lookout for New Signals
Loma Linda to Montclair, CA
Part I (of I-IV)
This poster was unexpectedly 'dispatched' to the Adelanto-Victorville area with a many hours layover, which afforded the opportunity to check out and look for new signals in the Inland Empire along the Sunset Route. The following multi-post report is what was found ...
There was no activity, nor new signals, at the LOMA LINDA crossovers (M.P. 541.3 / SP542).
There was a good sized stack of laddered signal masts at the Colton Signal Dept.
Just west of the Colton Crossing diamonds, more not-in-service-yet tri-lights have been added, this time at the northwest quadrant's transition track. BNSF has jurisdiction over this diamonds-related trackage. For those unfamiliar with the area, Los Angeles is to the photo left, Arizona is to the right background.
Since West Colton Yard has basically already been revamped and has the new tri-light signals, a side diversion trip to Riverside was made. On the way, still in Colton, the southeast quadrant transition track off the Sunset Route to BNSF's [CP] WEST COLTON was examined. The BNSF CP is just north (railroad east) of the B-5 Bridge over the Santa Ana River. There is an odd tidbit to relate about the BNSF transition signal. It is one of the few places where westbound Sunset Route trains pass a dwarf target signal! But, it looks like that dwarf target signal is being replaced by a new signal, one of the rare dwarf signals, double-headed at that, and each head with single-lensed tri-lights!
Part II (of I-IV)
At the Magnolia Ave. underpass construction site in Riverside, CA, it is becoming very difficult to photograph updates thereat, but here is what could be had ...
The south side digging out is progressing.
The north side is also having some dirt excavated now.
Part III (of I-IV)
From Riverside, a journey directly over to the west end of West Colton Yard's west side area was made. No activity was found to be taking place at the EAST switch (AL531) of the SOUTH FONTANA siding.
That area has a bunch of advertising signs adjacent to the tracks. In the above photo, the view is eastward. On the photo right is a good-sized, NEW gravel offloading.
It was visually inconclusive if new signals are being erected at the west end (AL529) of SOUTH FONTANA. Inconclusive, unfortunately, because Cherry Ave., as well as Etiwanda Ave. a few miles further west, was both blocked off by barricades and an unusually strong police presence. It is unknown what that was all about.
In the October 8 post, Part III, a photo was shown of two NEW, side-by-side masts erections east of Milliken Ave., with differing signal system types on each. In that photo, the new tri-lights mast had pole stems for lower heads, both westward and eastward! That does NOT fit the present track design! It is suspected that, possibly in response to the crash of UP 8315 WEST last month, a new CP at the west end of the Kaiser Yard will be put in, governing just the west entrance to that flat-switching yard. But as explained above, the many cordoned off roads and much police presence precluded checking on that. Of course, there is always the possibility that two lower headed masts in a row might be being planned as in the Indio, CA and Estrella, AZ areas.
The NORTH ONTARIO siding, on the other hand, was very easily examined and photographed. The below view looks westbound from Bon View Ave. towards the east switch (AL521).
In the above photo, the far right tri-light top head (in front of the tree leaves) has not had the back black shielding, nor the nun-like hood, attached. Also, the whole lower head has not been attached either.
The same CP as viewed from Campus Ave. on the west side of the east switch, looking eastbound:
Continued in Part IV
Part IV (of I-IV)
At the WEST switch of the NORTH ONTARIO siding (AL520), new tri-lights have also been erected. A westward view from Vine Ave.:
(The very old target signal on the right was lit because Amtrak #2 had gone by previously, but was still in the block during a lengthy Ontario station stop.)
A side view of those same above pictured NORTH ONTARIO west switch signals. They both have lower support piping for lower heads. The next siding westward, NORTH MONTCLAIR, is so close to NORTH ONTARIO that no intermediate signals will be needed between CP's, hence, the lower heads' piping.
An east view of the same CP from San Antonio Ave. (in Ontario, NOT Pomona):
Finally, an east switch, partial view of [CP] AL518 NORTH MONTCLAIR.
In the above view, the foreground tracks are LA&SL's separate, not directly attached to the Sunset Route, Montclair Yard tracks.
The west switch (AL517) of NORTH MONTCLAIR has had tri-lights for some time now, hence, was not included in this new tri-lights review.
(For those that wrestle with clocks ... After all the above series' photography, this poster got back to the Adelanto-Victorville area with only eight minutes to spare! And, I did get in everything that I set out of photograph. How is that for a sense of timing?)
desertdog (10-7):
You were wondering WHERE the nine miles or so of new two-tracking in Arizona would take place at, and you had come up with precisely the area I was thinking of, namely, MARICOPA to BON, which happens to be about nine miles.
However, the Union Pacific website (which MikeF90 linked for us in his October 7, 2010 post) announced that the renewed two-tracking effort in Arizona would be in "Maricopa County." Strangely, the City of Maricopa (as well as Bon) is NOT within Maricopa County!
The eastern north-south country line is actually in the Mobile area, and the county stretches westward all the way to somewhere in the Sentinel-Stanwix area. That fifty to sixty mile area is a large area to field check, and it is unknown if there is any activity yet to field check on.
The irony in all this is that from the City of Maricopa (first photo) to Tucson, the right-of-way IS all graded and ready for a second-track ...
... Whereas the fifty to sixty mile stretch that the UP website identifies is NOT graded (at least it wasn't in January when this poster last field checked the area)!
The second photo was snapped at Gila Bend in that January field checking during a tie replacement program that extended all throughout the fifty to sixty miles. There is NO grading on the single-track in the far background past the overpass.
At least we now know the truth, desertdog. I don't think either of us every imagined that the previously theorized Maricopa to Bon stretch would NOT be in Maricopa County!
Best wishes,
Hello K.P. and Desertdog,
Yesterday, (10/12) my son and I were out running errands and I decided to check out the U.P. Gila Sub from Gila Bend to CP Bon, and we did not find anything going on from Gila Bend to Maricopa (lots of trains though), so I checked from Maricopa to Bon, and noticed that UP has dropped off some CWR on the right of way from CP East Maricopa, to just west of CP Bon....also at the crossings of White Parker RD they have the bases in for relocating the crossing gates to make room for the second track. Also saw 1 or 2 new control boxes along the right of way. From the large grain elevator east the old target signals are still in use, NO new signals yet.
K.P., desertdog, and locomatt:
This is the only place where I have seen speculation about these nine miles of second main track.
From the city of Maricopa eastward is approximately Pinal County.
My guess for the nine miles of new double-track is west of the existing double-track which ends at CP Estrella (?).
K.P., thank you as always for the photo update of SoCal.
mvs K.P., desertdog, and locomatt: This is the only place where I have seen speculation about these nine miles of second main track. From the city of Maricopa eastward is approximately Pinal County. My guess for the nine miles of new double-track is west of the existing double-track which ends at CP Estrella (?). K.P., thank you as always for the photo update of SoCal.
K.P. et. al.,
I should have known better about what is and what is not in whatever county, but was not thinking when I responded--probably because I was overjoyed that at least something was happening in Arizona at long last.
However--and it's a big however--I wonder if the UP spokesperson does not suffer from the same mis-identity crisis? It would make much more sense to lay track on a graded roadbed (Maricopa-Bon area) than somewhere that requires a lot of dirt work (west of Estrella).
Interestlngly enough, the Arizona Republic is reporting that the renewed construction will take place "near Phoenix." But then again, they rarely get much right.
Update as of Wednesday, October 13, 2010:
Part A (of A-B)
The Etiwanda and Cherry Avenues Area
Fontana, CA
This update is reference the east switch GUASTI (M.P.524.7 / AL525) to the west switch SOUTH FONTANA (M.P. 529.3 / AL529). You may recall that previously the Kaiser-South Fontana area was reported as inaccessible because of the area being cordoned off and a large police presence. Wednesday, everything was back to normal, and the area was able to be field checked. Thus, the following is filed with the forum:
As you will recall, the two new, side by side intermediate signal masts EAST of Milliken Ave. had stems for yet to be installed lower heads, and two possibilities were offered for the west face eastbound lower head. The second possibility, TWO separate, lower headed masts in a row was what was found to be the case. The following westward looking photo shot from the Etiwanda Ave. overpasses shows the second set of two new side-by-side masts, with the target headed mast being in service.
The second photo looks westward at the west interlocking of the SOUTH FONTANA siding. It has new masts for the main, but not one yet for the siding. The ones present have no heads as of yet.
The east switch of SOUTH FONTANA was observed from I-10, but NO new masts, nor new signal boxes were present.
Part B (of A-B)
The Colton Signal Department
Colton, CA
The Colton Signal Department grounds had what appeared to be a high tech theodolite and global positioning unit each on a separate tripod.
Maybe the Colton Crossing area was being surveyed for the future Colton Flyover ...
The unit on the right is indeed a Global Positioning System antenna/ receiver, probably being used as a 'base station' to support and correlate location data in 'real time' with 1 or more 'rovers' = portable units being used elsewhere for the actual locating and elevation work, etc. The one on the left is an uncommonly tall and hence most likely a high-powered transmitting antenna to send and receive that data to and from the rovers. That would be desirable in a location like this to assure that the signals are received continuously by the rovers - signal transmission can be all-too-easily interrupted or disrupted by objects in the way or 'line-of-sight path' such as the embankment or bridge in the background, a train of multi-level auto-carriers or double-stacks passing on either of the tracks, etc. The mudchicken here may be able to add some more to this explanation, as he is more familiar with this gear than I am.
Yes, almost certainly surveyors, as few others have that quality of equipment - working on what, who can say ? They might be right around the corner, or from 10 to 50 miles away . . .
Thanks for noticing, photoing, and sharing.
- Paul North.
locomatt63 (10-13):
Thank you for the great, informative Arizona field report between Gila Bend and Bon. The fact that you spotted new continuous welded rail (CWR) between Maricopa and Bon is rather good news.
Please see the memo to desertdog below ...
mvs (10-13):
You are welcome.
You, too, may be interested in the below memo to desertdog ...
desertdog (10-13):
It is uncanny how you and I seem to be on the same wavelength and have come to much the same conclusions. I don't know if you and I will be on this one or not, but ...
Because of the seemingly mix up in the UP website announcement about an Arizona "county," and the fact that the money numbers don't seem to fit for second-tracking between Estrella and Sentinel, I am now convinced that the new [CP] SP899 MARICOPA eastward is what UP has in mind.
Interestingly, locomatt63 reported seeing new welded rail, and a new CP box or two that was somewhere east of Maricopa. Whether that was a coincidence or not is unknown, but ponder this, desertdog ...
There is a graded strip of land just west of the N. Anderson Rd. area that looks like a future CP graded area. BON is just east of there. The first link below is a MapQuest aerial of that wider area.
http://www.mapquest.com/mq/2-idFgqoJd*DfcDF9b1**d
Technically, the mileage numbers don't quite add up. Sources inform me that the distance from the new [CP] MARICOPA and the west switch of BON is 7.8 miles. If we go 8225 feet further east to the east end of the BON siding, and continue with accumulative mileage from EAST of there, we come to another CP-type graded area that is east of Corrales Rd.
http://www.mapquest.com/mq/6-ldKDOAAao4yyk1ys
That "east of Corrales Rd." grading might be what this fomumist photographed on September 4, 2009.
Since I am not in Arizona, I cannot say for sure if the above photo is of that wider graded area "east of Corrales Rd." or not. Anyway, it appears that the 'further east from BON' grading is 9.4 miles FROM the new [CP] MARICOPA, just within the perimeters of what can be construed in UP's website mention of "9 miles."
Since we don't know exactly what UP has in mind, we will just have to wait and see what develops. But, it shouldn't be long now before the actual area of UP's intentions become readily evident, wherever it will be at in Arizona.
Paul D. North, Jr. (10-13):
Great to hear from you, Paul!
Reference that surveying equipment by Colton Crossing ...
I have had some surveying exposure, and have actually used and tinkered with theodolites. But, that was about 20 years ago. I have no idea what the industry currently uses, but, when I was involved, the industry seemed to have been in the early stages of GPS use. I am sure GPS surveying use is highly advanced now, and widespread.
So, I halfway recognized right away what was probably taking place in Colton, and photographed it. I am glad you could relate to the photos and that they were meaningful to you.
Take care all,
K.P. and others -
As it happens, if all goes as planned I'll be 'supervising' the staking out a new 1,200 ft. long industrial siding and 2 turnouts up in the Albany, NY area early next week. The surveyor will be using a state-of-the-art Leica Robotic/ remote control 'total station', which is a combination of transit/ theodolite and electronic distance measuring gear, plus radios and some other sensors, bells, and whistles, etc. I should be able to get a photo of it and post it here, barring complications - no relevance tot his thread, but just for fun. Or, see the mudchicken's 'avatar', though it's at a pretty small scale/ size.
One thing that hasn't changed is the need for someone to pound stakes into the ground and mark them correctly for the construction crew to refer to and use to guide the location of their work. Guess who anticipates being the 'hammer technician' for a good portion of that ? Mainly 'cause the surveyor fellow will be real busy running the data collector and its software to control the robotic station and keeping track of the data in and data out, etc. - it's actually more productive,efficient, and cost-effective to do it that way . . .
Paul_D_North_Jr K.P. and others - As it happens, if all goes as planned I'll be 'supervising' the staking out a new 1,200 ft. long industrial siding and 2 turnouts up in the Albany, NY area early next week. The surveyor will be using a state-of-the-art Leica Robotic/ remote control 'total station', which is a combination of transit/ theodolite and electronic distance measuring gear, plus radios and some other sensors, bells, and whistles, etc. I should be able to get a photo of it and post it here, barring complications - no relevance tot his thread, but just for fun. Or, see the mudchicken's 'avatar', though it's at a pretty small scale/ size. One thing that hasn't changed is the need for someone to pound stakes into the ground and mark them correctly for the construction crew to refer to and use to guide the location of their work. Guess who anticipates being the 'hammer technician' for a good portion of that ? Mainly 'cause the surveyor fellow will be real busy running the data collector and its software to control the robotic station and keeping track of the data in and data out, etc. - it's actually more productive,efficient, and cost-effective to do it that way . . . - Paul North.
(The critter in my avatar is robotic, cantankerous & poorly made Swedish junk with an american name on it.There's orange under that Trimble yellow with a big "G" on it. The company won't be buying any more. Good optics, terrible electronics and no manual.)
Feel your pain...planting trees near Aspen Monday and praying the bozoes in the dreaded yellow machines actually read the stakes before destroying them...
MC, thanks for those details, commentary, and insights. For those who are not familiar, 'multipath' is not a good thing - it's when the GPS signals from the satellites reflect off nearby buildings, metal objects, tree leaves, etc. and arrive at the GPS receiever at slightly different times and strengths, etc. Since the whole system operates on time differentials between signal reception, 'multipath' essentially creates spurious and false signals that at best confuse the receiver, and at worst lead to incorrect positional solutions. "RTK" = Real-Time Kinematic surveying, which means the equipment is solving and providing pretty precise locations at the same time as you're doing the locating and measuring work - no need to collect a pile of data, go back to the office, and 'post-process' the data through a bunch of math and programs to make the corrections for really precise work, such as when you're setting up a base station or control point. And 'planting trees' is mudchicken's expression for setting stakes - an under-rated form of outdoor upper-body exercise that helps to ensure us survey-types continue to have the long and productive lives to which we're of course entitled . . .
What's also interesting to me is that in the topo/ mapping work, there's usually enough going on to keep the 2nd person busy as well, at least in an urban or built-up area. Besides watching out for trains and/ or road traffic to protect the person who's busy with the 'rod' and data collector - and that's when yet another person to serve as a watchman, flagman, or 'road guard' is needed - there's all kinds of notes to be taken, things to be measured up, adjoining pole numbers to be copied, pipe diameters to be measured, photos to be taken, track features to be identified, points marked for that rod-person to take shots on, etc.
For example, a single shot on the corner of just a couple of the piers for an overhead structure is often enough, if it's backed-up by a sketch and measured dimensions. And don't forget to measure the overhead clearances to the lowest point of that structure - either with a tape measure, or using the 'reflectorless' distance measuring capability that's built into the modern instruments - a godsend to getting elevations on wires, and shots on busy roads and even of tracks where you're not supposed to or can't go in person. Someone with the knowledge, experience, and imagination to be able to stand back and visualize the proposed project and how it will interact with what's already out there is essential to getting good data. There's a saying is the survey business - I heard it from Gary Kent of ALTA survey standards expertise and fame - that locating a property corner to the nearest 0.01 ft. is good, but it's better to also notice the overhead wires that may indicate an easement of some kind . . .
In my situation, the stakeout is tight between an existing track and a large above-ground pipeline on the left, and the stone access road into the place on the right - and most of the way, close to the track is a waterline that needs to be worked on in some way before the track can be installed. So most of Friday afternoon was spent figuring out the 'offset' distances for the stakes to one side or the other to be close enough to be useful while still being accessible, staying out of the actual excavation slot, staying off the round pipe, and out of the clearance envelope for the adjoining 'live' track. Oh, yeah - 1 more thing: The turnouts are going to be pre-paneled on one side next to their final locations, and then slid over during an outage. So that side of the track isn't available for the stakes - only the other side is - and that's the curved side of the turnout. As a result, each stake has a varying offset distance to the centerline of the straight side of the turnout. That can be a little unnerving to those with little experience, but I understand that the contractors' superintendent and foreman are coming in on Monday as well to review it all with me, which will provide an opportunity to go over it with them 'one-on-one', in real-time and at full-scale, and that should go along ways towards minimzing any possible confusion.
This plant is pretty-laid back about photos as long as they're not showing obvious safety issues or trade secrets, so I should be able to get a few of the finished stakeout and alignment. If so, I'll post them here with some commentary, so that the members can see what real-life looks like some time. As someone at a seminar said recently, "Industrial track design is more challenging than main lines - there are more constraints." It also helped that conincidentally, both the design engineer and railroad's reviewing engineer have extensive model railroading track planning experience - you might be surprised how often the same issues arise and the analysis and solutions are similar in concept , although at a much larger scale . . .
Paul and MC, all of this new tech is great but we "older" surveyors who built the Santa Fe (now BNSF) Williams - Crookton, Arizona 44 mile line change in 1959-1950 had only new K&E transits, Zeis levels and 100 foot steel tapes. And we did it all in 16 months.
Our RP's (reference points) were established by setting the transit on the point and turning 45 degrees (or whatever gave a clear line of sight) and seting two stakes, then flip the scope and set two more on the other side; then turn 90 degrees from the RP line just established and repeat the process. Sometimes the RP's were 350 - 400 feet from .the point to be reestablished because of cuts in excess of 100 feet or fills more than 100 feet. To reestablish you brought two transits and the intersecting lines created a 90 a degree intersection. Very accurate!!
Oh yes I know, in current conditions the paper work would not be done in 16 months. Progress???
Is this(mulitpath) why sometimes my GPS says I'm someplace besides where I am? Usually the error is 100 yards or less. Sometimes my GPS show me to be in the South Atlantic 100 miles off Guinea (yes I know 0 deg lat 0 deg long)
thx IGN
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