Usually, the single head is above the multi-lamp head, setting up a slow or medium speed situation.
Need the timetable to know for sure.
Those yellow (or other colors) flags usually mark existing utilities.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
K. P. HarrierThat panel track above could be just a replacement section, or for a new second track through the 62nd Ave. grade crossing.
Whatever the project at 62nd Ave is, UP is in no hurry. Street view shows that it has been there since Nov 2018.
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.5985909,-116.1023949,3a,30y,141.01h,86.98t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s_LJC-WzuvR1TOcPIriaF-g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
One thing not mentioned is that one of those unusual signals also resides here:
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.5985931,-116.1026531,3a,37.5y,21.76h,91.67t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1shJRbzIKW3RYL_fWMjSLO5g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
The MP on the box shows the location as about 1.4 miles from CP Thermal - close for an intermediate signal.
Links to my Google Maps ---> Sunset Route overview, SoCal metro, Yuma sub, Gila sub, SR east of Tucson, BNSF Northern Transcon and Southern Transcon *** Why you should support Ukraine! ***
Less than a mile east of the above two-masts on a signal box, that new signal reported recently was found and photographed for the forum’s benefit.
I honestly do not know what kind of a signal this is. I doubt that the bottom head has three aspects and might not even two aspects. This could quite possibly be some kind of a high-water detector or something.
I used to know and understand the old SPTCo signals like the back of my right hand but times have changed with the UP. At first they didn't change much but later they did.
Regards,
Fred M. Cain
Fred M Cain K. P. Harrier Less than a mile east of the above two-masts on a signal box, that new signal reported recently was found and photographed for the forum’s benefit. I honestly do not know what kind of a signal this is. I doubt that the bottom head has three aspects and might not even two aspects. This could quite possibly be some kind of a high-water detector or something. I used to know and understand the old SPTCo signals like the back of my right hand but times have changed with the UP. At first they didn't change much but later they did. Regards, Fred M. Cain
K. P. Harrier Less than a mile east of the above two-masts on a signal box, that new signal reported recently was found and photographed for the forum’s benefit.
The bottom head is a single aspect, probably displays green and flashing green in conjunction with the top head. If that's the case, then the only time the bottom head would be lit is to display the yellow over flashing green or yellow over green aspects.
The only other single aspect lower heads I've seen in my area would be to display a yellow in conjunction with the top head, yellow over yellow - approach diverging. They usually don't use approach diverging in advance of the higher speed turnouts, those capable of 50 or 60 mph speeds. Prefering instead the approach clear 60 and/or approach clear 50.
Often on the 70 mph exCNW main, approaching a crossover with a 50mph turnout, the first signal (conditions permitting) is the approach clear 60, then the approach clear 50, and then the diverging clear at the turnout.
Jeff
To all:
I’m retired now, and don’t have a computer, believe it or not in Hemet. I’ve been called back to work more than I wish, most often for graveyard dispatching, and I do have a computer accessible there with plenty of time to kill! So …
Here’s a better photo of that new, not activated yet intermediate signal east of the two-masts on a box signal east of the Mecca siding, taken by my colleague two or three weeks earlier than mine.
Above, the future lower east, right side westbound (for leftward travel) head likely will be a single lamp head, either a lower green for two-tracks ahead or a lower yellow for the Mecca siding if it will remain.
My previously posted somewhat blurry, darkening light and angled photo of the same signal (to jog the forum’s memory):
Replies
Fred M. Cain (5-9):
The signals you did not know what kind they were (the right heads for westward, leftward movement) are simply intermediates in advance of an absolute for a turnout. That weird two-mast one on a box would display yellow over yellow if the next signal ahead was red over yellow to go into the Mecca siding, otherwise the intermediate’s lower right head would always be dark..
tree68 (5-9):
On UP a single light head over a three lamp unit typically is used at the end of two-tracks, for the turnout (or is it turn-in) route, and is an absolute.
On UP, typically a three lamp head over a single lamp head is as described to Mr. Cain in the reply just above.
If, as you say, those yellow flags typically are for utilities, it makes one wonder why they are present now.
steve24944 (5-12):
With THIS single post of several replies, your question was answered in the reply to Fred M. Cain. Hope it made sense.
jeffhergert (5-12):
That strange two masts on an electrical box signal is the first signal (the RIGHT heads for leftward, or westbound travel) in advance of the Mecca siding, with a 30 M.P.H. switch, so that strange advance signal displays yellow over yellow when the east siding CP displays red over yellow.
So you, Jeff, can understand the area trackage, two-tracks from the west end at Thermal, and two-tracks resumes at Salton towards the east, with single-track between them. In that single-track section, an eastbound train will first pass the Mecca siding, then after another single-track stretch will pass the Mortmar siding, with another single-track stretch before Salton is reached.
Best wishes to everyone,
K.P.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- K.P.’s absolute “theorem” from early, early childhood that he has seen over and over and over again: Those that CAUSE a problem in the first place will act the most violently if questioned or exposed.
K.P.,
Well, well, well. I now see I have company. You see, *I* don't have a computer, either. The only way I can post anything on here is if I use my desktop at work (or, go to the library which I rarely do).
However, having said all that, WHAT is "graveyard dispatching"? That could actually mean several different things. You work at a cemetary and plan and "dispatch" plots?
Or, you work at an RV company dispatching RV's to ship on third trick? Or, are you slaving over a CTC board on third trick?
At any rate, whatever you're doing, if you had to come out of retirement, business must be good!
.... deleted ....
Glimpses and Revelations!
A Revealing Trip Monday May 20
and Tuesday May 21, 2019
California to Maricopa, AZ and Back
Eastwardly, two areas of Sunset Route activity were observed, the Mecca, CA (east of Indio) and the Bosque, AZ (east of Gila Bend) areas. This update will be on a westward overview basis, starting in Arizona. As for the California scene, it was seen to be way, way different than expected – so brace yourself when we get to that area ….
Arizona signals all have been converted to the color light types, EXCEPT five sidings all in a row, Shawmut (the east end of the five), Bosque, Gila Bend, Theba, and Pedra (the west end). Shawmut currently has new signals erected, but heads turned away.
The Bosque siding is being extended eastward by an estimated 1.3 miles (note the grading).
A new extending siding bridging has been installed just east of the current east switch Bosque, with grading also present.
Above, note the old target signal.
It is unknown if that new Vena guy from Canadian National will do any two-tracking in Arizona, but the focus seems to be on lengthening sidings
In California, the Mecca siding WILL BE (i.e., near future) extended westward, with signals already erected by the east side of 4th Street, but NO grading has been performed.
Above, while previously a second-track section (only a section) was laid through the grade crossing (above lower photo left), it apparently will not be used, at least at this time.
At 62nd Ave. the mast for the relatively new signals had a west side eastbound lower head added (black, turned aside still), apparently for an advance yellow over yellow to enter the extended Mecca siding to the east of this location.
That concrete tied panel track on the northeast side of 62nd Ave. mentioned last report seems to be not for a second track, but only to replace the present concrete tied track through the grade crossing. But, we will have to wait and see what happens to make sure.
A mile or so to the west of 62nd Ave., at the end of two-tracks, at Thermal, the short-length CP presently gives no evidence of being upgraded to a high speed switch.
Just a note eastward from the Mecca siding, about 8-9 miles, is the Mortmar CTC siding. It is 8483 feet long. Basically, at EACH end of the said siding is an important grade crossing. So, that siding cannot reasonably be lengthened at either end. Will it be taken out of service? Just used for shorter long trains?
Reportedly, a ‘block swop’ facility will be built at or near Santa Teresa, NM (haven’t we heard THAT before?). K.P. is not clear on exactly what UP intends to swop at Santa Teresa if such is built. Does UP intend of swop Intermodals there? Well and fine. Boxcar traffic? The boxcar counterpart departure tracks at West Colton Yard in the Colton, CA area I think are only about 9500 feet long, and there is not much or not at all room for lengthening possible on the west end. And, it is questionable to extend a departure track eastward, perhaps via a new third-track on the Colton Flyover, because doing so cuts off the BNSF Connector a few blocks west of Colton Crossing. Anybody have any juicy facts and / or insight on this?
The Maricopa, AZ Report
The Highway 347 overpass construction just east of the Amtrak station is moving along striking fast.
The CZ Car (and more Highway 347 Overpass Views)
The ex-California Zephyr car CB&Q Silver Horizon had been moved earlier this year to its new location a few blocks away (east) along the Maricopa-Casa Grande Highway, leaving a gapping emptiness at its old location by the Amtrak depot and by the under construction Highway 347 overpass..
K.P. does not anticipate a revisit to the area for months, so it is hoped this brief update will be sufficient for the forum.
This is the end of this update.
Thanks KP. The block swap proposed for Santa Teresa is to combine common loads arriving from the three easterly UP lines into larger trains for the continued westward movement of those commodities (loads). This reduces the number of trains leaving Teresa westward and thence allows those trains which arrived from the east to be turned at Teresa.
This explanation is much simpler than, I presume, what will take place.
K.P., you are the Sunset Route Swami! Thanks for another top shelf, top-notch update!
kgbw49 K.P., you are the Sunset Route Swami! Thanks for another top shelf, top-notch update!
Note to K.P. Harrier: Congratulations! On your retirement ! Another step in a bittersweet ride... Many of us here have enjoyed your tales "RE: Sunset Route Two-Tracking Updates." It might even be considered your Magnum Opus. It is most important now, to keep interested and occupied. This Thread certainly qualifies as an important step in the Interest Dept., and working part-time at something you seem to enjoy; equally important.
So keep us 'Updated' [RE: Sunset Route Two-Tracking Updates.]
Best of Luck and Thanks!
There has not been any track laying on the Sunset route for a while. I have compiled, with KP's help, what I think is the status of the double tracking. I based my analysis on SPV maps and occasionally there was not a MP or name available. There is an error in the milage between Pomona and Ontario that I cannot resolve hence the ???.
Going from east to west:
Double tracked:
CP SP 827 to MP 1298.5: Eastern suburbs of El Paso to Estrella
CP Stanwix to CP 831 Sentinel
CP SP 785 to CP SP 796 Mohawk
CP 753 Dome to CP SP 771 Wellton
CP SP 743 to Blaisdell
East portal Colorado River bridge to CP SP 738
West portal Colorado River bridge to MP 715
MP 636.6 to Glamis (Mesquite)
CP AL 533 Sierra to Thermal
CP AL 521 Pomona to MP 521.1 North Ontario (???)
On the LA&SL Sub all double tracked from Los Angeles to Pomona
Single track:
CP 831 Sentinentel to MP 876.1 Estrella
CP SP 796 Mohawk to SP 818 Stanwix
CP SP 771 Wellton to CP 785 Colfred
Blaisdell to CP SP 753 Dome
CP SP 738 to CP SP 743
Bridge over Colorado River
Glamis (Mesquite) to MP 715.0
Thermal to MP 636.6
MP 521.1 North Ontario to CP AL 533 Sierra
Los Angles to Pomona on Alhambra Sub
ccltrains, thank you for that accounting!
Question for discussion:
Would that indicate the need for two long sidings in the 45-mile gap Sentinel to Estrella, and two long sidings between Glamis and MP 715?
K.P. has indicated the siding at Mecca is being extended in his last post.
Thanks again!
kgbw49K.P. has indicated the siding at Mecca is being extended in his last post. [.... transposition ....] Would that indicate the need for two long sidings in the 45-mile gap Sentinel to Estrella, and two long sidings between Glamis and MP 715?
I'm very puzzled about the need to extend Mecca siding since it is only 4.5 miles from the end of 2MT at CP Thermal. I measured the distance between 4th Street and Thobe Road (grade crossings) and it is barely 15k feet - not the 16k feet mentioned for the Gila sub siding extensions. Hmmm.
Likewise, Mortmar siding is only 2.3 miles from CP Salton and is bound by grade crossings. Perhaps the Mecca 'extension' is a precursor to finishing 2MT from Thermal to about MP 628 (CP Thermal-Salton midpoint) - about seven miles of new track and two CPs eliminated.
By the above 'logic', 8500 ft Clyde siding might be extended. This is will be hard to monitor since it is so isolated, and KPH has not mentioned owning an Off Highway Vehicle. Glamis siding spans a major highway and should be a non-starter.
As mentioned above, Piedra, Bosque (between Sentinel and Estrella) and Aztec sidings are being extended. This breaks up the single track sections between 'super' sidings and 2MT blocks to less than 20 miles. Don't overlook Gila Bend siding - about 17K feet but bisected by a grade crossing - I call it a passing (not resting) siding.
How this all works out remains to be seen .....
Good stuff Mike F90! Thanks!
From Union Pacific’s 2018 Fact Book, they show two large single-track sections in Arizona, then a short single-track gap at the Yuma bridge, then a large single-track gap in Southeastern CA, and one small single-track gap at what must be Thermal.
I echo your puzzlement on that very short stretch of single track near Thermal. It would seem to make sense to close that gap to keep trains moving on double track all the way through there, and then add long sidings and extend sidings in those three longer single-track sections.
Perhaps if the Santa Teresa changes for the block swapping terminal come in under budget they will fill that very short gap at Thermal in.
Although, if they follow the CN “formula”, one would expect more long sidings and extension of existing sidings on the Sunset Route east of El Paso, on the former Texas & Pacific, and on the Golden State Route over the next several years.
UP has a lot of double track segments on many other routes, but those three are largely single track per their 2018 Fact Book (scroll down to page 4 of 39).
https://www.up.com/cs/groups/public/@uprr/@investor/documents/investordocuments/pdf_up_2018_investor_fact_book.pdf
kgbw49From Union Pacific’s 2018 Fact Book ....
I'd urge you to look at the more detailed maps in my .sig that I try to maintain rather than UP's satellite view. The SR overview shows where the remaining single track is.
kgbw49.... short stretch of single track near Thermal. It would seem to make sense to close that gap....
I think you misunderstood me or I didn't emphasize my speculation enough. Competent dispatching will not let shorter single track sections be a bottleneck. Adding a second track is expensive compared to the benefit of closing 'short' gaps, especially bridges. PSR is all about being extremely thrifty with capital spending.
When UP (and BNSF up north) added double track some ~15-20 mile gaps were left; this lets them add 10 or 20 mile sections later by adding midpoint crossover(s) and track.
There are some remaining shorter single track sections that (IMO) may cause disruption, say near West Colton and Yuma. Only the RR could explain why these aren't a concern. My best theory is that 'silo budgeting' hides the problem, but that's a whole 'nuther thread.
Another oddball arrangement is the ~18 miles of DT between CP Dome and Wellton; it does not have a midpoint universal crossover and reportedly it is still signaled only in one direction!
kgbw49if they follow the CN “formula”, one would expect more long sidings and extension of existing sidings on the Sunset Route east of El Paso, on the former Texas & Pacific, and on the Golden State Route
Certainly possible if traffic increases, but it remains to be seen if PSR will make that happen. Call me very skeptical ....
BTW notice that the previously planned DT between El Paso and Sierra Blanca seems to be stalled. Also, the heavy volume of Permian Basin oil related traffic between Monahans and Midland (ex-T&P) mostly goes east. No traffic increase, no more DT.
Hi, everyone!
I AM NOT K.P., BUT K.P.’s BOSS (SORT OF ANYWAY, HE’S RETIRED … SORT OF). He requested I post this in his forum account in his absence. (He doesn’t have a computer in Hemet, CA.)
He wanted you all to know that a RECENTLY INSTALLED (just last year) Sunset Route CP box in ARIZONA is now at a prominent signal dept. fenced yard in CALIFORNIA, believe it or not!!!!!
I’ve authorized him to post one of my photos (taken Sunday afternoon 6-23-2019), which he will probably do graveyard early Wednesday morning (6-26 when here), which post should be approved (hopefully) and appear at the forum sometime after 7 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time Wednesday, if all goes as planned (including NO problems at Kalmbach’s end).
A Photo of the Unbelievable
In the last few years in ARIZONA (“Arizona”), old target signals were upgraded to color lights on much of the remaining single-track Sunset Route line, including new CP boxes. Adjacent the I-8 Freeway BOTH ends of the Aztec siding were among them, the eastern end by that famous water tower, and the western end only identified with a NEW box placarded as CP SP811 AZTEC.
CURRENTLY, within the Colton Signal Dept. fenced yard, Colton, CA (“California”), by the Colton Flyover, is THAT rather new Arizona CP SP811 AZTEC box!
K.P. happened by that signal dept. yard yesterday, June 25, 2019 while on personal business, and the above photo is his own.
The forum may be surprised by this new ‘two states’ development!
Aztec siding is being extended west by about 11,000 feet. This CP Box was at the west end. Back in 2018 it was at the west siding switch (along with two siding foundations) but wasn't installed. IF it was never installed and now the west siding is being relocated, it would not be needed for its original purpose.
If it was ultimately installed, then its possible the siding as been extended and the new west end activated, thus this CP Box in no longer required. Still, I am surprised it made it all the way to California.
K.P., it is great to see you back on your epic Sunset Route Two-Tracking Updates thread! And BNSF6400, thanks for the follow-up information to K.P.’s find!
Perhaps the CP will be reused at one of the siding extensions in Southern California that are purportedly going to be installed.
Instead of relay rail it may be relay control point, perhaps.
Things to Come …
… but First things First
With the advent of the Vena era at UP, a number of sidings on the remaining Sunset Route single-track between Los Angeles and El Paso are being upgraded to long, long sidings. Some may have theorized that two-tracking is over. It could very well be, AT LEAST FOR NOW! But, K.P. now sees a very, very telltale sign in the current activity!
In the Lower Desert of Southern California, east some distance from Indio, is the Mecca siding. In this Vena era that siding is now being lengthened, both to the west and to the east. A photo of the east end is shown just below looking westbound:
Above, did you notice it? What?
A closer look and an explanation:
The background non-switch siding ties currently being laid are CONCRETE, while the foreground ties of the off to the side switch are WOOD! While BNSF does such as a common practice, UP uses concrete ties for mainline track as well as within the switches, UNLESS the switch is temporary. It is very unlikely the Vena era has changed UP’s long standing physical plant practices, so we can expect further two-tracking in the years ahead, possibly three to ten years from now. The present focus on siding extensions seem to be merely to get long, long trains (a phenomenon of Precision Scheduled Railroading) around each other at meets.
Ridgecrest (CA) Earthquakes: July 4 and 5, 2019
After the above two photos were shot (July 5), and in putting the camera away, I found myself having difficulty standing. “Man, the heat must be getting to me,” I thought. Calling my wife, she immediate answered, and said, “Did you feel the 7.1 magnitude earthquake?” Needless to say, I felt much better about driving home in the heat!
The Siding Extensions Are …
Four Sunset Route siding extensions are in the works or have been completed: Two in southeastern California, and two in southwestern Arizona.
California: Mecca and Clyde
Arizona: Aztec and Bosque.
That leaves a glaring gap in Arizona, somewhere around the Theba siding. I have to wonder if ultimately there will be five siding extensions …
About those new long sidings
The Precision Scheduled Railroading with a limited number of long sidings will put UNEXPECTED (!!!) demands on dispatchers. Can you imagine a DS suddenly realizing two three mile long trains can’t pass each other at a non-extended siding? Won’t that be fun! Will it be a double saw-by, or backing one train 12 miles? What if both three-mile long trains are in a dip and one has to back uphill in curvy territory? In that case, the DS probably would ‘ask’ the engineer to walk back the three miles and hope the DPU is facing backwards!
West Colton Yard, Colton, CA
In looking at some possibilities in conjunction with both Precision Scheduled Railroading and what Mr. Vena might do in revamping the UP System, K.P. finds West Colton Yard (on the western Sunset Route) kind of an impossible yard, with very little that can be done. Will it stay? Who knows? IF (“if”) it is an impossible yard how could 15,000 feet eastbound trains be made up there? Extend eastward over the Colton Flyover?
Fred M Cane (5-16)
Doesn’t misery love company? (Hehehe.)
diningcar (5-23):
About a block swap facility by Santa Teresa, NM, you sort of opened up a can of worms in my mind with your post.
For years I’ve mentally envisioned a block swap facility as merely a small number of long tracks where arriving cars could be combined and that combination would then speed west, and the reverse for eastward travel from the west end. But, you’ve introduced a new angle, ‘combining common loads.’ Now, that suggests a whoppingly large facility with a bunch of cars just sitting around. In some ways, why not just build a classification yard at Santa Teresa?
Maybe someone at TRAINS can write a feature article on what exactly a block swap facility is and its technicalities, like a whoppingly big (and expensive) facility or one nice and small (in other words, inexpensive).
Word, though, is that Santa Teresa is having $20 million spent on it. Only $20 million! That is hardly anything unlike the on hold Brazos Classification Yard near Hearne, TX, which is somewhere near $500 million, as I recall. A small, simple, easy to comprehend facility sounds more like the “block swap” facility that I originally had envisioned!
BNSF6400 (6-26):
In Arizona the east end of the Aztec siding and eastward got the new color light signals and a new CP box early on. The west end had the old CP box. As time progressed the section between Aztec and Mohawk got converted too, and I thought a new CP SP811 AZTEC was put in service also. (You, BNSF6400, said it wasn’t.) Then Vena came along, and the west end of the Aztec siding got moved westward, and CP SP809 AZTEC came into existence, freeing up the old new box of CP SP811 AZTEC (if it had been installed), that was transported to the Colton Signal Dept. in Colton, CA. In Southern California there are some lines with modern CP boxes but not the present standard ones. Somehow I’m inclined to think that displaced CP SP811 AZTEC box from Arizona now in Southern California will be used to replace one of those newer but not standard CP boxes. At least one of those newer but old non-standard CP boxes has already been traded out for a new standard one. Perhaps that displaced CP SP811 AZTEC box will find a new home near Cajon Pass … near my old office, where I fill in more than I like as a retired person.
I have heard nothing about lengthening sidings on the Los Angeles & Salt Lake line. Do you, BNSF6400, know anything about that counterpart line for Los Angeles-Chicago traffic? Hey, wouldn’t it be something if a Sunset Route CP box in Arizona found a home up in Utah? In California, the two new Mecca CP boxes will soon be extras. I wonder where they will eventually end up.
kgbw49 (6-28):
There are only two siding extensions in Southern California, one completed, Clyde, and one yet to finish, Mecca. They will mean three or four CP boxes can be used elsewhere.
To All:
Plan on K.P. taking a hiatus from posting … I’m sure Kalmbach would just love that! Hopefully, I will still be alive and kicking in seven to nine months, and able to make a review of the California-Arizona Sunset Route scene first hand and report the status to the forum and the followers of this thread.
Take care all,
Thanks for your most recent post!
I’d like to bring the West Phoenix Line back into this discussion. A guy on another e-group on the Milwaukee Road made the comment that the UP has been keeping the West Phoenix Line hanging because they intend to eventually utilize it in a future two-tracking plan where the Maricopa/Gila Line would presumably run in one direction and the Phoenix Line in the other direction.
Well, not wanting to argue with him, I did not tell him that I have had some correspondence with the UP over the years and they told me clearly that they did not want to do that since the Phoenix Line runs through downtown Phoenix (and, presumably Tempe and Mesa as well).
But later I got to thinking, could it be, could it just be, that maybe this guy knew what he was talking about? Is that possible? Have you ever heard any kind of speculation about that?
Best Regards,
Kp and all interested:
I suggest the Santa Fe yard at Clovis, NM has be doing the 'block swaping' activity for some time and without a significant 'makover'. Clovis is similar to Santa Teresa with the conversion of the SE Texas line from Temple through Lubbock meeting the southern Transcon.
Eastward trains arrive in Clovis with loads destined for SE Texas and also loads destined for Denver, St. Louis, Memphis and further to the SE. The presorted loads are separated and made up into trains that will reach those destinations.
Westward Transcon trains pick up loads arriving from those various origins and place them in blocks that will be further broken up at Barstow for California destinations.
K. P. sorry to hear you are taking time off. Thanks for all of your posts: they have been incredibly valuable and provided an insight into the lines east of where I get out to (I make it as far as Niland on my occasional business trips to the Indio area). Looking forward to hearing from you next year.
Fred, regarding the West Phoenix Line: I had always thought that SP could have turned this into a “poor-man’s” 2MT route between Wellton and Picacho back when they were adding the second main track between Tucson and El Paso prior to the UP acquisition. The running between Tolleson and the east end of Phoenix Yard was slow (35-40 mph, 25 mph through the Phoenix depot). But in the late 80s I stayed in Tempe, and once a train got around the curve just north of the Salt River they would take off at a fast clip, save the sharp curve in Mesa. This was back when SP was still ramping at Phoenix Yard: I saw both manifests and solid pigs rounding the broad curve south of Tempe at a very good clip. I don’t think the slow running would have been a major issue. The key, as always, would have been if SP, and later UP, gotten through the terminal in Phoenix without mucking things up with locals or yard moves. Otherwise the time impact would have been maybe 30 minutes. Although a longer route, all of the time saved from meets would have been a lot. Keep a few of the hottest running against traffic on the Gila Line; do everything else directional.
The pluses to this would have been the obvious directional running (ie: EB use Phoenix Line, WB use Gila Line), but also provided direct access for West Coast to Phoenix traffic (forest products, construction products). While LA – Phoenix and Lathrop/Portland – Phoenix domestic traffic would probably have had a difficult time being truck competitive (SP’s COI – Phoenix Sprint trains never amounted to much), there may have been an opportunity for international traffic (a couple of trains per week). The DC market on the west side of Phoenix didn’t really get going until the mid- to late-90s, so perhaps too late. But likely it would have provided enough business for 2 trains per week each way.
(edit: the DC market in Phoenix now is moslty local Phoenix DCs, fed directly from the ports of Oakland, LA and Long Beach, as well as - to a greater extent - from the regional and national DCs in the LA Basin. The volume of trucks moving from California to Phoenix is very large. A lot of this is LTL, meaning all going from one cross-dock in one area to a cross-dock in the other. Every major LTL carrier has a cross-dock within a couple of miles of the now-UP main in the Tolleson area. This would have been a great location to relocate the SP Phoenix Yard at one time: lots of land at extremely cheap prices. No more....)
All speculation that will likely never happen….
Bruce,
Thanks for your info. I'm not sure why - and, as a shareholder, I intend to complain about it - but it would appear that the UP has all but completely abandoned the Phoenix intermodal market.
They unload 'em in the Tucson area and send 'em over the highway from there. Meanwhile, the BNSF has a dedicated intermodal train from Chicago to Phoenix (Glendale, actually) that they route over the "Peavine".
Surely the UP could compete with that. What don't they? They appear to have just let the BNSF have the Greater Phoenix market.
BTW I posted a while ago some photos from Google Maps on TO Western Board of BNSF's expansion of their ramp in Phoenix. Coupled with the previous expansion done over the past 2 years, this has more than doubled BNSF's capacity in Phoenix. They obviously see a future in this market.
The Tucson ramp gets minimal business, maybe 50 - 60 lifts per day. The old Phoenix ramp was doing around 150 - 200 lifts per day in the late 80s, most of it to/from El Paso east. Relocating out of Phoenix was essentailly de-marketing their presence in AZ for intermodal.
K. P. HarrierThat leaves a glaring gap in Arizona, somewhere around the Theba siding.
Perhaps K.P. has caught that common Internet condition 'tunnel vision'. From other sources I reported above that Piedra siding has been lengthened and reportedly is operational.
I have not yet seen independent confirmation of lengthening of the two Yuma sub sidings mentioned, but I'll post when seen.
I recently paid a visit to Rosenberg TX, which is the location of the UP - BNSF crossing, that was historically controlled by Tower 17. The tower still exists, but was moved several years ago to the nearby Rosenberg Railroad Museum (worth a visit). Currently, a contractor is installing a siding on the south side of the UP main. It starts just east of the crossing diamond and goes about 2 miles to just short of the Collins Rd. crossing. Anything further east would involve multiple street crossings and real estate acquisition in the "twin city" of Richmond TX. And, of course, there is that need for a 2nd bridge over the Brazos.
Also, according to one of the docents in the tower, they are planning to remove the diamond and replace it with some switches. I can see how that would be possible, since the BNSF, travelling east, crosses the UP at an angle (NW quadrant to SE quadrant) and then turns immediately left and closely parallels the UP eastward for, maybe, 2 miles before turning south toward Galveston. No further details.
BTW, K.P., was the pipeline work in the Etiwanda-Kaiser area ever completed?
Pete
K. P. Harrier That leaves a glaring gap in Arizona, somewhere around the Theba siding.
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PeteMthreeCurrently, a contractor is installing a siding on the south side of the UP main. It starts just east of the crossing diamond and goes about 2 miles to just short of the Collins Rd. crossing.
Good eye @PeteMthree and welcome to the forum!
Since there is a grade crossing at Richwood Lane this may go in as a second MT (no parking ). They will probably connect to the BNSF at their CP just west of the southward curve.
Back to the Alhambra sub in Etiwanda where I haven't been in a few years, the Mar 2019 Google street view shows a clean ROW and no prep for a second MT . We're UPRR, P.S.R. will solve everything ......... except traffic growth.
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